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As the article clearly and correctly states, the morning after pill is not an abortifacient, and can hardly "end" a pregnancy three days after intercourse, as implantation would not have occurred in that time. -- Someone else 02:58, 20 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Yeah, and I'll ask my doctor her opinion about transubstantiation. --
Someone else 03:05, 20 Sep 2003 (UTC)
She says she's against it. Please don't put misinformation here. The views of both "sides" are adequately represented in this article. -- Someone else 03:12, 20 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Yes, and that statement was written after I characterized your prior change as misinformation. The article appropriately addresses a medical topic by considering it medically first and addressing moral concerns later. It doesn't need a discursive paragraph on religious opinions before it addresses scientifice concerns: it addresses religious concerns at the appropriate place. -- Someone else 03:24, 20 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Read the mechanisms in the article. It should be stated that it prevents pregnancy, not conception. Removed "Because a contraceptive is literally anything which prevents conception, when taken after the moment of conception the morning after pill acts as an abortifacient." which is illogical: the first part of the sentence does not imply the latter part. You're not representing the viewpoint correctly, let alone attributing it (as it is later in the article). -- Someone else 03:36, 20 Sep 2003 (UTC) -- Someone else 03:36, 20 Sep 2003 (UTC)
The second is both quaint and bizarre, implying that eggs are fertilized in an ovary, and that an ovary and womb are synonymous. -- Someone else 03:58, 20 Sep 2003 (UTC)
removing "A contraceptive is literally anything which prevents conception. When the morning after pill is taken prior to conception it indeed acts as a contraceptive, but when taken after the moment of conception it acts as an abortifacient. " is an improvement. My point is that the argument you seem so intent on pursuing is is adequately presented later in the article, in a more appropriate place, and in a more readable manner. -- Someone else 04:09, 20 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Later in the article means that I think medical discussion should be first, and ethical discussion after. The article says it is known as emergency contraception, which is simply true, not a viewpoint. -- Someone else 04:30, 20 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Well, so you apparently think. I myself prefer to think that people might actually like an article about the morning after pill, rather than about the ethics of the morning after pill. -- Someone else 05:35, 20 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I agree with Someone else the article is fine as it is, it already presents both POV's.Also a slap on wrist for BuddhaInside. Minor edits are for typo's, fixing broken links, and changes in formatting.Adding and deleting content is not minor, and in an edit war situation you should never mark edits as minor. Theresa knott 07:35, 20 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Here is my proposition.
What do you think ?
Hmmm... we know it is available in the US, France, UK, Albania, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, Israel, Morocco, Norway, Portugal, South Africa, Australia, and Sweden. What places have made it inaccessible? -- Someone else 09:25, 20 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Reading this article, I'm unclear as to whether the pill (in the emergency mode, taken soon after sex) is a contraceptive or not. Does it prevent conception (fertilization of the egg) or not? If my prior understanding of the function is correct, it acts as a form of birth control by preventing implantation of the zygote, but not as a contraceptive like condoms. — Daniel Quinlan 06:53, Sep 21, 2003 (UTC)
Just as an FYI, if all the factors are right and conception (fertilization) does occur as a result of intercourse, it occurs less than seven minutes after ejaculation.
See http://www.drspock.com/article/0,1510,5049,00.html for a more detailed explanation.
Pianoman123 08:53, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
3 changes, Anthere. The first is describing the pill as acting to prevent implantation:
That's a nice reference and the french/americans do not define embryo or fetus differently. But if you find a french (or any other countries) pharmacoepia that lists the morning after pill as an 'abortifacient' i will be VERY surprised: it just isn't one. I don't think it's a national difference. The only thing I would differ with your 2nd favorite encyclopedia is the claim that the loss of ANY embryo is abortion: I think the term more stringently defined would call only the loss of an implanted embryo an abortion; Pregnancy starts when implantation occurs: the only confusion on this matter is that it can only be spoken of retrospectively: in common speech one never has the opportunity to say "I'm pregnant" until well after implanation has already occurred. -- Someone else 08:32, 21 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Your point of view is very interesting, but I disagree with some points.
First, tough that is "private" stuff, I must respectfully disagree with the in common speech one never has the opportunity to say "I'm pregnant" until well after implanation has already occurred.
"Well after" is very much undefined. When I decided to get pregnant one year in december, we had sexual relationship on the 1rst of january, and morning sickness (morning was an understatement) started on the 4th. On the 5th of january, I went to a medical facility (in USA) for an unrelated medical pb that required medical treatment. When I indicated I was pregnant, and wanted to be sure the medication would not be a pb to the foetus, medical staff answered me I was not, I could not, and even if I was, I would not be said so before I was at least 1 week late. Followed a good bunch of discussion after which they agreed to make a test (I mean, I was a pain, right ?). The test was positive. Inside themselves, I know they admitted the fact, for they asked me to come back two days later for an echo, become of a lump that made them fear of a nidation was occurring at the wrong place (a couple days later, the lump was gone, very likely, it was the yellow corpse, which is very enlarged at 5 days of pregnancy). They then told me the medication was fine to take for a pregnant woman, but they refused to officially admit me as pregnant. I did not understand at that time :-) It is not until 3 weeks later that I was registered pregnant, even though I had already lost 6 pounds from "morning" sickness.
Something you might find interesting as well, is that the french length of pregnancy is 10 days longer than the american one. Curious eh ?
Now, to come back to the abortifacient aspect, I would not even try to check because I know it is classified in an in-between class, that we call "contraceptif d'urgence". It is of course advertised as a contraceptive. I found for you a link to the legal discussion at our assembly which occured in 2000.
http://www.assemblee-nat.fr/cri/leg11/html/20010007.asp
I will translate to you a very interesting part of it, that will show you perhaps that "medical definition" has its limits, and that we should not limit ourselves to it in our description of the issue.
Monsieur le président, mesdames les ministres, madame la rapporteuse, mes chers collègues, c'est encore à la sauvette que nous discutons d'un texte qui pose d'importants problèmes de société à l'occasion d'une niche parlementaire, un jour de moindre affluence dans l'hémicycle. Car la proposition de loi sur la contraception d'urgence n'est pas un texte anodin, à caractère technique, destiné à remédier à un simple dysfonctionnement juridique.
En proposant que la pilule du lendemain puisse être distribuée par des infirmières dans les collèges et lycées sans autorisation parentale et sans prescription médicale, ce texte pose très sérieusement plusieurs problèmes politiques et sociaux très importants. Quelle conception du rôle des parents et de leurs activités véhicule-t-il ? Comment s'insère-t-il dans les objectifs de santé publique et quelle image donne-t-il des responsabilités médicales, éducatives et politiques ? Premièrement : qu'entend-on exactement par contraception d'urgence ? Il semble qu'aujourd'hui il n'existe que deux produits susceptibles de répondre à cette appellation : le Tétragynon, à base d'oestrogènes, et le Norlevo, à base de progestérone. Seul le second serait concerné par le texte dont nous discutons, parce qu'il ne présenterait pas de dangers pour la santé. Ces pilules sont-elles réellement une méthode de contraception ? La notice du Norlevo indique : « La contraception d'urgence est une méthode de rattrapage qui vise à éviter l'ovulation ou l'implantation d'un oeuf fécondé en cas de rapport sexuel non protégé. »
En d'autres termes, soit le Norlevo a un effet nul, si le rapport a été non fécondant ou si l'ovule fécondé est en train de s'implanter, soit il a un effet contraceptif en empêchant la fécondation, soit il empêche l'implantation.
Mais l'implantation de quoi ? De l'ovule fécondé, c'est-àdire de l'embryon. La vie de l'embryon, de l'être humain, commence dès la fécondation. Il possède dès ce moment tout son patrimoine génétique, donc, quel que soit le nom qu'on lui donne, la prise de levonorgestrel peut avoir pour effet d'arrêter le développement de la vie humaine. Il n'y a en effet aucun doute scientifique sur le fait que la vie humaine commence dès la conception.
Tout le reste n'est que bavardage.
Depuis que le débat sur ce sujet a commencé, on nous affirme que la grossesse commence à la nidation de l'embryon et que c'est la raison pour laquelle la prise de Norlevo ne peut être assimilée à une interruption volontaire de grossesse. Mais il n'existe aucune définition juridique ou scientifique permettant de vérifier cette théorie.
Selon la définition de l' Encyclopaedia Universalis , l'état de grossesse commence à l'instant de la fécondation et se termine neuf mois plus tard environ. Quoi qu'il en soit, qu'on l'appelle grossesse ou pas grossesse, quand il y a eu fécondation, la vie humaine a commencé et le Norlevo interrompt bien la vie dans ce cas-là. La réalité est que le Norlevo peut être une contraception d'urgence dans certains cas, mais qu'il peut également être un abortif d'urgence. Ce n'est pas une hypothèse minime, quand on sait que, dans les vingt-quatre heures, après un rapport sexuel non protégé au moment fertile du cycle de la femme, 30 % des rapports ont déjà été fécondants. L'expression consacrée de « contraception d'urgence » est donc limitative et trompeuse. Que l'on soit pour ou contre la distribution du Norlevo dans les collèges et lycées, cette réalité mérite d'être reconnue. Les enjeux psychologiques et moraux, puis les enjeux de santé publique sont tels que nous avons le devoir de dire la vérité sur cette question à nos concitoyens. Pour cette même raison, il est indispensable de respecter l'objection de conscience du corps médical - médecins, infirmières et pharmaciens - qui ne peut être contraint à distribuer le Norlevo en raison de ses effets.
Deuxièmement, le débat sur la pilule du lendemain fait naître plusieurs questions qui relèvent du domaine de la santé publique. L'absorption d'une pilule de Norlevo équivaut à celle de vingt-cinq comprimés d'anticonceptionnel traditionnel. Ce n'est pas rien.
L'objectif affiché est de limiter les grossesses chez les jeunes filles. Or on peut se demander si le Norlevo aura un véritable impact en ce domaine. C'est au moins un sujet de débat, que Mme la ministre a du reste évoqué dans son intervention. La possibilité de prendre ce médicament ne va-t-elle pas encourager une certaine irresponsabilité chez les filles et surtout chez les garçons ?
Mr. President, Mesdames the ministers, Madam the recorder, my dear colleagues, it is still hastily that we discuss a text which poses significant problems of company at the time of a parliamentary niche, one day of less multitude in the hemicycle. Because the private bill on emergency contraception is not a text pain-killer, in technical matter, intended to cure a simple legal dysfunction. By proposing that the pill of the following day can be distributed by nurses in the colleges and colleges without parental authorization and medical regulation, this text very seriously poses several political and social problems very significant.
Which design of the role of the parents and their activities does it convey? How does it form part of the objectives of public health and which image it gives medical, educational and political responsibilities?
Firstly: what does one hear exactly by emergency contraception? It seems that today there are only two products likely to answer this name: Tétragynon, based on oestrogens, and Norlevo, containing progesterone. Only the second would be concerned with the text which we discuss, because it would not present dangers to health. Are these pills really a method of contraception? The note of Norlevo indicates: "emergency contraception is a method of correction which aims at avoiding the ovulation or the establishment of an egg fertilized in the event of sexual relation not protected" In other words, is Norlevo has a null effect, if the report/ratio were not fertilizing or if the fertilized ovule is being established, either it has a contraceptive effect by preventing fecundation, or it prevents the establishment. But establishment of what? Fertilized ovule, it is -àdire embryo. The life of the embryo, human being, starts as of fecundation. It has as of this moment all its genetic inheritance, therefore, whatever the name that one gives him, the catch of levonorgestrel can cause to stop the development of the human life.
There is indeed no scientific doubt on the fact that the human life starts as of the design. All the remainder is only chattering. Since the debate on this subject started, it is affirmed us that the pregnancy starts with the nidation of the embryo and that this is why the catch of Norlevo cannot be comparable with a termination of pregnancy. But there is not any legal or scientific definition making it possible to check this theory. According to the definition of Encyclopaedia Universalis, the state of pregnancy starts at the moment of fecundation and finishes nine months later approximately. At all events, that it is called pregnancy or not pregnancy, when there was fecundation, human life started and Norlevo stops well the life in this case. Reality is that Norlevo can be an emergency contraception in certain cases, but which it can also be abortive emergency. It is not a tiny assumption, when it is known that, in the twenty-four hours, after a sexual relation not protected at the fertile time from the cycle from the woman, 30 % of the reports/ratios were already fertilizing. The devoted expression of "emergency contraception" is thus restrictive and misleading. That one is for or counters the distribution of Norlevo in the colleges and colleges, this reality deserves to be recognized. Psychological and moral stakes, then the stakes of public health are such as we have the duty to say the truth on this question to our fellow-citizens. For this same reason, it is essential to respect the conscientious objection of the medical profession - doctors, nurses and pharmacists - who cannot be constrained to distribute Norlevo because of his effects.
Secondly, the debate on the pill of the following day gives birth to several questions which come under the field of the public health. The absorption of a pill of Norlevo is equivalent to that of twenty-five compressed of contraceptive traditional. It is nothing. The posted objective is to limit the pregnancies in the girls. However one can wonder whether Norlevo will have a true impact in this field. It is at least a subject of debate, which Mrs. the minister has of the remainder evoked in her intervention. Won't the possibility of taking this drug encourage a certain irresponsibility in the girls and especially among boys?
Mme Boutin was one of our 16th presidential candidate at our last elections. She is very focused on family, society, and bioethics. The dignity of the human person is at the center of her discourse.
She is a journalist, not a doctor. And not doctors only decide of the definition of words.
Anthère 11:03, 21 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Here [6] is a Catholic perspective on how pro-abortionists having been working to change the definition of words like "conception" and "abortion" in order to make pre-implant termination of the product of conception somehow not be abortion. - BuddhaInside
Medical researchers needs to have "alive" status be as late as possible, in order to use stem cells.
Anthère
Whoah, whoah, whoah. This nitpicking about whether an unimplanted embryo counts as a pregnancy is completely beside the point. The primary method of operation for the morning-after pill is prevention of ovulation, with a small theoretical risk of interfering with implantation that hasn't even been shown to occur scientifically (see here for example), a risk which is also theoretically posed by the normal birth control pill. If you've already conceived when you take the morning-after pill, you'll stay pregnant. Conservatives hear about that "small theoretical risk" and jump all over it trying to make it out as the primary method of operation, but that doesn't make it so. DopefishJustin (・∀・) 21:45, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)
Some additional Canadian data to add. The morning after pill is currently available from a pharmacist in British Columbia, Quebec and Saskatchewan. On May 19, 2004 it was announced by the health minister that there was a proposal to make the pill available in all provinices from a pharamacist. I'm not sure if this is law yet because it gets into Canadian politics. Parliament was disolved before this could have been passed, because there was a new election coming. However the suggestion seems to have come from Health Canada, perhaps (likely) with proding from politicians (or the other way around). My guess would be its likely still in the works to be available in the other provinces.
There is also complaints about the fact that the woman has to talk to the pharmacist at all about it (as well as complainst from the religious right...i'll enclose two links at the end). Apparently a pharmacist could charge $20 for the "advice" plus the cost of the pills. In practice i don't think this would happen after the pill was readily available in cities because of competition although they might be able to charge what we call "the fill fee" which is the fee they get for putting together prescriptions (the article doesn't specify--this could be the concern but fill fees are often in the $10-15 range not $20 and if you look around you can find them much cheaper.
From what i can tell there are still Estrogen versions of the morning after pill in Canada (although they are only offering plan B at the pharmacies). I pick up my birth control from a local city clinic because i'm on low income. One time i made a comment about how i wasn't going to bother using it if just the condom broke (i use a back up method) because of how sick the pill made you, because i got migraines, smoked and had a second cousin who had a major stroke at 40 (these are all very good reasons not to take high estrogen.....although it would still be a personal decision, which i was basing on the other type i used working 60% of the time over a year, not with one accident). I have taken very low dose pills once for a few months to regulate but i would never take high estrogen (in fact they don't use those pills as much as they used to because women are getting pregnant on them...miss it by half an hour one day and you may not be safe...its good for a low dose set your clock thing though). She agreed that i was a bad risk factor for the estrogen pills as a morning after option and then told me that Plan B wouldn't make me sick but that just as important in my case it had no estrogen at all.
One difficulty that might arise is that for those of limited income most prescription drugs are covered (i never thought it all that fair i paid for my birth control but you could get the pill on the coverage i have). When it becomes non-prescription it is almost always delisted these days. You can appeal and i did for an epipen and i won, but i went around bureaucratic cirlces for 6 months and i'm generally good at that kind of thing. This might mean lower access for women who are poor in the country. For those of us that live in cities that have birth control (or sexuality) centres it doesn't make a large difference---at least on a weekday, as they sell it affordably. But even with the clinic in my city many women are not aware of it, or think it below them to go when they are qualified (in fact you don't need to prove anything). I mean, who has 6 months to appeal the morning after pill or is going to think to do so in advance?
Also in this city it means that a teenager has access to the morning after pill without their parents conscent. The clinic works on a strict confidentiality basis. If you seek it out they figure you are going to make your own choices about sex (they offer counselling when you first go, although most revolves around how to find the right type of birth control for you as well as safe sex and any STD tests you might want to have as well as how to have some of them (such as HIV) done annonomously---i did go as a teen because of the price factor but i don't remember if they talked much about if i wanted to have sex as i'd already done so (with contraception) but wanted to use the clinic. They are serious about this. I know one women (15 years ago) who went to her doctor to get the pill. He refused and told her parents. She got it off the clinic and the clinic refused to even look up if she was a client or to say anything to anyone.
I do know my mom needed it about 20 years ago. And the problems she encountered (well almost did) might be more common in countries where you need a doctor to prescribe. Her gynecologist gave it to her when she got ahold of him but generally it was very hard to get at the time. Even 10 years ago in Ottawa half of the hospitals wouldn't give it out and it was difficult to get on the weekends, although the feminist centres (and the university clinic that offered it) had a list of places that it could be prescribed at as well as where not to waste your time (problems of time were arising, waiting in an emergency room for a long time [its not urgent] just to find out the hospital doesn't offer the service can cause problems if repeated).
Search engining most got discount pharmacies however these two pages had information http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_emer04.htm and http://dawn.thot.net/cwhn.html
The religious tolerance page listed a study about teenagers use of morning after pill...are we able to cite that on here (i'm still learning exactly what can and can't be) that showed teens in didn't use it for birth control. The DAWN link has a lot of the Canadian news put on it together. DAWN stands for Disabled Women's Network and is a feminist group.
I'm going to try and edit in bits that apply to Canada. I'll check back or let me know what you think of the edit or comments here.-- Marcie 23:20, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Hey guys. I think the statement "The morning-after pill cannot be recommended as the main means of birth control because of its strong side effects and relatively low reliability. " is misleading. It has a 90% effectiveness give-or-take, and most women do not experience and strong side effects. See
http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/sex_relationships/facts/morningafterpill.htm
I hate to be the d*ck, but I would like to mark this as non-neutral until this is sorted out please. Sorry. (P.s. i'm not arguing that it should be the main means - just arguing about the reasons why)
-
Johnflux 08:46, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Johnflux 21:14, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Can any of you who believe that EC is an abortifacient point to one scientific peer reviewed article that actually shows EC given after fertilization of the egg can abort it (I use the term abortion loosely to include the destruction of a fertilized egg). As far as I can tell, this idea is simply conjecture. Scientifically, it has been shown that EC administration produces no statistical reductions in the rate of pregnancy when given after ovulation. Fertilization cannot occur prior to ovulation, therefore, if EC was producing abortions after fertilization one would expect a statistical reduction in the rates of pregnancy when EC is given after ovulation. Based on this information, isn't it proper to say there is no scientific support for the idea that EC can be an abortifacient. If changes in certain hormone levels or changes in the length of the woman's luteal phase were preventing implantation of the embryo to the uterus, this would have to lead to statistically significant reduction in pregnancy rates when ECs are given after ovulation. I think it is fair and just to give the facts that have scienitific acceptance different weight than statements that are mere hypotheses. As far as I can tell, the idea that EC is an abortifacient has no science to back it up.
The beginning of the article has "its use as a contraceptive is held to be immoral by some groups including the Catholic Church". This isn't a terribly useful statement since the Catholic Church considers all forms of contraception to be immoral (except for natural family planning). I'm sure there's no shortage of groups that oppose the pill, so is there one we can name that doesn't oppose all contraception? DopefishJustin (・∀・) 19:01, May 19, 2005 (UTC)
It could be better phrased, pointing out that Catholics oppose Plan B as something which causes abortions (it prevents implantation after conception). Catholic Crypt
I realize that the article as it stands could probably use some NPOV-ifying by an opponent of the pill, but some of the recent changes by 214.13.4.151 are not helpful to this end and it's hard for me to see how they are made in good faith. Some examples of these changes include changing occurrences of the word "woman" to "gravida" and "contraceptive" to "abortifacient".
His/her most recent edit changed the opening sentence to "The morning-after pill is a pill regimen designed primarily to interfere with the lining of the uterus to prevent implantation of a very young embryo." This is ridiculous. As a random example, see the FDA's page on the drug and the manufacturer's page, both of which describe preventing ovulation as the pill's primary (and presumably intended) effect. Unless you believe that the FDA and the manufacturer are both wrong (despite all the testing they must have done) or outright lying, interfering with implantation is not the primary or intended effect.
If there is a dispute about a statement in the article, you need to mention that it is disputed (or say "the pill's manufacturer claims that...but...") and then explain the nature of that dispute later in the article, attributing it to whatever persons or groups are making such a claim, or "opponents of the pill" if you don't have names handy. Changing the introductory paragraph to come down 100% on your side of the dispute with no explanation is not good enough for Wikipedia purely on informative grounds.
Also, to other well-meaning contributors who might come along and notice that the page seems to be inaccurate: it might be a recent change, so please check the article history to see if there is a better version that it can be reverted to rather than rewriting everything yourself. DopefishJustin (・∀・) 22:22, May 31, 2005 (UTC)
Much of Stevertigo's recent string of edits is redundant information that is already covered in the ==Controversy in relation to abortion== section (it was also largely POV, which I've did a little bit of NPOVing on). I propose that the redundant information be deleted, and any new information be evaluated and if it's appropriate for this article and adds to it's quality, be worked into the already existant sections like the above mentioned Controversy section. For example, some of the specific quotes can be kept but moved (though they should be re-formatted to be more encyclopedic and less like quotes in a magazine or newspaper article). Icarus 05:20, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
Whilst I disagree with 'pro-life' view point, I thought Stevertigo's had useful quotes on the issues as well as some interesting divergence of opinion within the 'pro-life'. I thought the article much improved for the extra information, but overall the article disorganised and need of tidy up. The sections indeed needed reorganising as some of the controversy issues came before even the description on the types emergency contraception and advise on their use.
I have reorganised the paragraphs. 'Controverses' was a 2nd level item ('==') and 'issues' & 'specific issues' sections were 3rd level ('==='), with one pointing out the opposition from 'pro-life' and one seeming more the counter-arguement, i have renamed them. Also it should be noted that the combined-pill EHCs are or have already been withdrawn due to the introduction of progesterone-only EHC. This has an impact on side-effects (eg past concern re oestrogen's effect for DVTs becomes irrelevant for progesterone-EHC).
Stevertigo's had a 3 pieces of hidden information that had asked not be deleted. They lost their 1-on-1 link to the text when I reorganised it and so I have pasted them in below. I have added some thoughts on the 3-points in what I hope will be taken as constructive.
David Ruben 17:28, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
are the United States Food and Drug Administration, National Institutes of Health, and the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists usually referred to, simply as "groups" as in the article?
-- Doldrums 09:23, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
Never heard this term used, User:85.154.20.87 can you elaborate? David Ruben 20:33, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
The term 'Emergency Birth Control' originated in Southern California as a term that is more accessible than 'Emergency Contraception', but which is nevertheless meaningful and accurate. Basically, the idea is that people - especially young people - will find 'Emergency Birth Control' easier to understand and remember than 'Emergency Contraception'.
I made a few changes in the "Controversy related to abortion" section. It used each of the terms at different times. Presumably, because the pro-life side wants to emphasize the level of development at that stage, and the pro-choice side wants to downplay it. "Fertilized egg" isn't entirely accurate, and "embryo", while technically accurate, is a bit misleading because in common usage, it usually refers to a later stage of development. So what I did was to use the most accurate term, blastocyst, the first time and add paranthetically that that's an early embryo stage. I later used "embryo" because most people don't know the word "blastocyst" and "embryo" is, after all, scientifically accurate.
I also removed "fertilization" from "there have likewise been some discrepancies regarding the very term "conception" (fertilization)." The very discrepancy is over whether or not the two are indeed synonyms, so it's POV to push that they are. -- Icarus 02:18, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
In reference to the second paragraph, a zygote almost immediately goes into cellular division so it is no longer a zygote when it is denied implantation. In addition the implantation of a zygote is impossible. Zygotes can't exchange chemicals, attach, or begin development of the ambilical cord. Only an embryo can attach to the uterus. Blastocyst is even less accurate. Changing zygote to embryo in the second paragraph would be more accurate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embryos
-- Shok 20:14, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
What needs to be done in order for everyone to be satisfied in removing the clean up tag?
This page uses many terms for the baby. At what stage (how many cells) is the baby in when it implants into the Uterus? Can't we just call it what it is: a BABY? 202.142.214.182 14:48, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I am moving the following paragraph out of the main page to the talk page in order to discuss its possible permanent deletion:
The first sentence above is almost identical to the first sentence of the following paragraph Pro-Life groups ... claim that such pills are "abortion pills", rather than "contraceptive pills." If people prefer the top sentence better than the second one, or want to integrate the two together, so be it, but I do not think they both belong because they convey the exact same bit of information: the fact that pro-life groups think EC causes abortions.
The second sentence above in regards to birth defects is completely baseless. If people want it included, it needs to be mentioned that the FDA has removed 'birth defects' from the list of side effects for the medication, and that studies involving women who continue to take birth control pills (same chemicals in EC) while pregnant suffered no birth defects in relation to the drug use. source If anyone wants the second sentence included, I'd like a citation of a Pro-lifer who makes this claim, and I'd like to see it presented in language the clearly illustrates the facts behind this claim (namely, that EC does not harm a fetus). For the time being, I have moved this paragraph to the talk page until these issue can be resolved.-- Andrew c 03:58, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure why
Chooserr is avoiding the talk page, but Chooserr has presented an alternative wording for these paragraphs in question:
In my opinion, this wording does not clear up the redundency issue that was part of my initial concern. Saying "there have been no conclusive studies" implies that the results are 'inconclusive' or a 'toss up' when in actuality, there has been NO causal relationship between the drugs and birth defects to the point where these warning have been removed from the drug information sheets. I clearly like David Ruben's wording better, but if Chooserr wants to work on combining the two or otherwise make their opinion known on this matter, maybe we can work on reaching a concensus instead of having 5 different people making big changes to that section all at the same time.-- Andrew c 00:59, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Hippocrite has recently deleted the whole first paragraph in the section on pro-life views. And Colle deleted the last sentence on the difficulties of determining whether someone is pregnant or not - the former may have been an over sight. Chooserr 00:53, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
I've decided that I will attempt to retain from edit warring, and try to explain my edits clearly on the talk pages, or in the summaries if I answer any questions posed to me after words. I'm not sure if this strategy will work, particularly because I doubt all other users will refrain from making reversions even if I do discuss with them, none the less I will attempt to rationalise it out.
My reason for reverting Alienus was that my addition (a rewording of content previously in the article) works towards explaining how it is hard to define pregnancy, and states briefly that pro-life and pro-choice people have varying definitions of pregnancy. I think this shouldn't be deleted, but maybe expanded a little more, and given a link to a site that explains these difference clearly. What do you think? Chooserr 04:04, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
re Side-Effects. Chooserr whilst your recent addition of some numbers to side effects incidence (eg headache 50% & nausea 20%) indeed make the previous "rarely" seem inappropriate, to which type of ECP are these figures for: combined oestrogren-Progesterone (Yupze) or emergency progesterone-only contraceptive pill (EPOC) ? If the older combined Yuzpe then yes I think I would agree (nausea figure seems about right - I'm surprised by, but wont dispute, the high incidence of headache). However Yuzpe been withdrawn in UK (?likewise elsewhere) for about 2 years. The incidence on EPOC of headache is, I believe, far less and particularly the rates of vomiting far lower & any nausea less intense than with the older regime. Indeed patients previously regularly reported vomiting on combined PC4 and needed additional doses if vomiting was too close to the time of dosage, but I have not (yet) encountered vomiting on EPOC Levonelle. Certainly both types have lowered incidence of side effects if taken with food rather than an empty stomach (?a source of discrepency between how high side effects can be and how high they need be in practice?). Of course causing side effects of nausea & vomiting is somewhat irrelevant when compared to the far higher rates of these symptoms if a pregnancy occurs and continues (not of course that this should have any bearing on a decission to use EC). David Ruben Talk 01:09, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
I edited it to be more general. I had a couple problems with Chooserr's last edits. I do not think it is appropriate to list %s. Because there are so many different forms of EC, and because I am not aware of any scholarly stastical analysis of all the different brands, it is misleading to quote a number found only on Plan B's datasheet. Also, a couple of the side effects I have not found listed anywhere. Finally, the sentence about heart attack and stroke does not really apply to side effects. There are lists of people who may not want to take EC, such as pregnant women, people with certain types of cancer, history of heart attack/stroke, etc... but thats different from 'side effects'. --
Andrew c
01:45, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
I assumed by side effect you meant any result (most likely detrimental) other than the desired result, and I believe that the increased risk to people who have had a heart attack or stroke of severe abdominal pain and blood clotes a side effect. Chooserr 01:49, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
My most recent edit - a reversion to Andrew C's version - was because David's is lacking in certain ways. Nothing extrordinarily big, but it does miss the last section on the OTC bills, and a reference to the Catholic document which it is forced contradiction with. Chooserr 00:07, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Chooserr, after recently looking at the Parental Notification article, I wonder if you could add some info to your recent addition to Emergency Contraception: There is also controversy over the Over the Counter bills considered by some states which would make it possible for a women to receive Emergency contraceptives without a prescription, or reporting a rape (if one has occurred).
Somewhat separately, given a previous section title is "Controversy in relation to abortion", would it be better to retitle this section as "Controversies over provision of EC" (or "Controversies over legal provision") with subheadings of "Provision for rape victims" (for the previous paragraph) and "Provision as OTC sales" (for this latest paragraph) or some such similar titles? David Ruben Talk 09:25, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
David,
I personally am not sure of all the specifics. There may be an minimum age - for now. This law also wouldn't allow provisions for the pharmacist to object on moral grounds. You can find more information here. Chooserr 06:45, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Copied from my talk page to keep discussion in one place:
I'm currently checking (google) to make sure that is an exact quote from the Church, but in the mean time I've re-added it for even though it may be slightly repetitive I believe that an exact quote wouldn't hurt, and it would be more verifiable than Wikipedia just coming out and vaguely point in the pro-life direction saying, "this is what they believe". Chooserr 00:08, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm generally a fan of quoting people in sufficient length to let them explain themselves, but this is overboard. It's just too big a quote for an article in which Catholicism is, to be frank, a minor footnote. If this were "Catholicism and emergency contraception", then such a large quote might be appropriate. Alienus 00:29, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
I do have a problem withy ou re-adding it, and I may well express my problem by reverting such an add. I never doubted the accuracy of the quote, just the relevance of so large a block of text for what ought to be an incidental subject. Perhaps you could quote relevant portions of it in place of your summary. Alienus 03:54, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree that this quote should not be included. It is long, and repeats information that is presented elsewhere in the article, and in that very section. The purpose of the quote is a long explanation why Catholics think EC is actually a type of abortion. Because this position is presented elsewhere in the article, I think the current version is sufficent enough to convey that the law is forcing Catholic hospitals to do something that they morally oppose. If I am missing something important about the quote, please tell me. -- Andrew c 02:27, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
I found a reliable source that basically echoes that the over the counter laws can be controversial [9]. Chooserr 03:49, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
[reset margins]I have reworked the section some, including quotes material from the bigger quote, a link to the quoted document, a link to another Catholic document, etc. I still have a problem with this version because I feel it is too wordy/redundent, but perhaps it is a comprimise we can all agree on. Personally, I would cut it down to two or three sentances max. For example:
And then move the Catholic's position up to the Emergency contraception in relation to abortion->Issues Against section.-- Andrew c 16:59, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand why "Controversy in relation to abortion" and "Controversy" are two different sections, with those names. They should either be merged, or named in a way that distinguishes them better. - GTBacchus( talk) 05:57, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
I believed that they should be seperate because one would discuss the pill its self giving information as to why everyone isn't using it and the other would talk about how different states are either trying to ban it or force hospitals and pharmacies to provide it. I'm tempted to add the two states (one of which I think is Missouri) that take the choice of the store/pharmacy to decide what they carry and sell away from them by forcing them to buy and stock ECs. Chooserr 06:02, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
First of all, your attempt at a revert was sloppy. You kept in my edits, but readded the older version, thus creating two copies of nearly every sentence in that section (but maybe that was a mistake). Next, you are ignoring the rational I have put forth for my edits. Your sentence about OtC is completely vague and meaningless, and ignores the fact that there is already a section about OtC controversy under the heading International availability. If you want to reorganize that section and add a header, do that. But adding that one unacceptable sentence under a different header does not help the article. Secondly, I made a case for why your long quote not be included. I then tried to cut things down, being concise while still keeping part of the quote and linking to the two sites. I asked you twice above, and I will ask you again. What exactly is being said in the quote that isn't included in my consise version, or other parts of the article? Remember this section is about the Mass. law, not the Church's position on EC, or the argument for EC being an abortificiant (which already has it's own section). So, I can't stop you from editing (nor would I want to), but could you please try to address these concerns and make a stronger case for your edits before readding them. -- Andrew c 14:28, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Hey I am pro-choice for the first trimester but CLEARLY this whole article is slanted toward the pro-abortion lobby. I think these folks are entitled to their viewpoints even if I don't agree with it 100%.
What I wanted to know is what happens if the woman IS already pregnant and takes the pill. She may be already pregnant, and not know it, from a previous encounter. Will the baby be harmed?
There is so much verbage trying to justify this drug, which some consider unsafe by the way, that needed info is left out or lost in a sea of words.
Oh, and one more thing I found odd. In a article 3,174 words long, the word baby does not appear one single time. Doesn't even unwanted or unplanned pregnacies involves babies??
Lets tighten this up people.
Less opinion, more facts.
-- 149.152.34.18 22:59, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
I think he or she had a valid question that is not answered in the article. The article does not say one way or the other whether or not the drug is harmful to the child. I think that’s a valid concern. The article reads as if any user of this drug would always get an abortion if she were already pregnant. There is no mention whatever what would happens to the development of the child, or children in the event of a multiple birth, if the drug is taken while the mother is already unknowningly pregnant and the mother latter chooses life. The lack of information is not proof the drug is safe. The advertisements I have seen for this drug do not boost among its talking points that the drug is safe for an existing child. -- 69.37.90.237 12:21, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Well I don't know about that. All kinds of drugs have been approved that make people sick or cause birth defects. Many hair treatments pills say right on the package that any woman of child bearing age whether she is pregnant or not must not even touch the pills. Another pain killer made my father very fat which lead to his getting diabetis. Then there is fin fyn or whatever. Latter these harmful drugs are pulled but not before the damage is done. Of course when you are talking about anything to do with abortion, the abortion cheerleaders last concern of all is the health of a fetus. That is of no concern whatever. -- 149.152.34.43 22:33, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Anon: I understand your concerns, but to include something in Wikipedia, it must be verifiable. If you have any data or sources that prove EC is harmful to fetus, please cite them. Pointing to the adverse health effects of other drugs, or mentioning personal anecdotes about your family, is not encyclopedic. I believe other editors have cited sources that explain how EC is not harmful to fetuses. As lyrl points out, oral contraception has been around for 40 years. Women may become pregnant without knowing it and continue to take the pill for a few months into their pregnancy. Case studies of these instances have shown no birth defects. Please read the section "II. Birth Defects" here, and check out their cited sources for even more information. -- Andrew c 15:31, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Proof is needed the drug is safe. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.37.254.159 ( talk • contribs) .
We had cited a paper without permission. I have since received persmission to cite it for wikipedia. I was also referred to a forthcoming updated version of the paper. For more information about this, see Wikipedia:Successful requests for permission#Emergency Contraception.-- Andrew c 20:27, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I'm super pro choice, and i can tell the bias in the article. Not neccesarily with what is said, but there is a pro choice tone. And the choice of facts. I'm sure all the facts are prettty accurate, but unfortunately overwhelming facts that seem to support one side could be considered biased. If there is overwhelming evidence that the nazis killed millions of people, and i placed that on an article, does it make me biased against nazis? probably, but it doesn't make me wrong.
don't they both prevent implantation.
You can not say one is a contraception and the other is an abortion just because of the time you take them.
whats the IUD classed as when its used as an EC —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blonde2max ( talk • contribs) 16:02, 5 May 2006
This section has been expanded a couple of times but reverted as off-topic to EC. To me, it's an interesting topic. I'm not sure if this is covered in any existing articles, but if not would anyone support making this its own article? Any name suggestions? Lyrl 22:06, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
True, but I'm not sure that would be the appropriate place to address the ethical issues of actions that prevent implantation (hormonal contraception, breastfeeding, and, as recently alleged by Prof. Bovens in the Journal of Medical Ethics, the rhythm method). The argument that hormonal contraception is immoral, but breastfeeding is OK due to the principle of double effect, etc. Lyrl 17:38, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
I found an article with a "fertilization vs. implantation debate" section: Abortifacient. Lyrl 00:50, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
"highly contested" vs "medically incorrect"
Al, I looked into this carefully and I easily find medical sources using "pregnancy" to refer to from conception. See The American Heritage® Stedman's Medical Dictionary (dictionary.com) and Langman's Medical Embryology p. 117 as examples. I do understand that it may seem clear-cut to some people, but the term varies in medical use, while "contested" is verifiable. I also suspect there is more at play than just politics and morality in the lack of uniformity. Darrowby 12:01, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
The argument I'd expect is that the fertilized egg in the petri dish has a moral right to be implanted in an appropriate uterus. This argument, however, would not carry much weight with me, particularly since IVF is normally paired with fertility drugs that cause multiple ovulation, and only the most viable eggs are kept for implantation after the waiting period. Frankly, it makes about as much sense to say that male masturbation is immoral because each sacred sperm has a moral right to enter the pregnancy sweepstakes in an appropriate vagina. Al 23:26, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
So I've been told, musically. Al 05:12, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Darrowby, I can't say I agree with your most recent edit regarding this paragraph. It now reads as though both options (fertilization and implantation) are given equal validity, which is simply not the case. Even if there is discrepancy within the medical community, which I'm sure there is, doctors, other health care workers, and scientists overwhelmingly support the notion of pregnancy beginning with implantation. This paragraph needs to reflect that. Although I appreciate your attempt at avoiding POV, you have given equal voice to two things that are not equal, and have ended up exhibiting a strong POV. rom a rin talk to her ] 22:39, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
(reset indentation) In the UK abortion is legally accepted (as opprosed to what any one person or group might otherwise wish) as the termination of a pregnancy following implantation and requires 2 doctors to consent prior to the proceedure and sign a legal document (Certificate A) and then a further certificate is signed on the day of the proceedure. Anything prior to implantation is considered contraception and outside the scope of the Abortion Act 1967 and the Offences Against the Persons Act 1861. So in UK, taking medication within the 3 days following intercourse or insertion of an IUCD within 5 days, will be before fertilistion/implantation is complete and thus counts as a contraception measure. None of this directly addresses ethical/moral/religious opinions as to what some might wish to have considered the start of pregnancy, but the de facto legal situation in the UK is currently of implantation. A few historical legal and current Medical advice links as references to this:
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help)David Ruben Talk 02:43, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
"Fertilised embryos naturally fail to implant some 40 to 60 percent of the time."
does not directly relate to:
"The claim that pregnancy begins with fertilisation and not implantation is highly contested."
It could be used in another way but it doesn't work there. Darrowby 13:29, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I had added the text "It is argued that the high loss rate of early embryos is reason to avoid defining pregnancy at conception" to try to draw the paragraphs together, but that was deleted by Al. Although actually the fertilization vs. implantation debate is likely off topic for this article - expansions to that section have been reverted twice before. I recently expanded that section in the abortifacient article, where it seems more on-topic, and have been trying to think of an appropriate way to link there. Lyrl 02:17, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
There's been some reverting between "anti-abortion" and "pro-life," with Andrew c pointing me towards WP:NCI. Trouble is, the naming conventions article is entirely about demographic groups (ethnicities, sexual orientations etc), and does not touch on whether or not these naming conventions (in particular, deference to self-identification) should apply to political movements. Most of the convention's examples are favored because they are the most inoffensive -- e.g., "gay" and "homosexual" are equally descriptive, but "gay" is favored because it is inoffensive to more gay people. "Pro-choice" and "pro-life" aren't npov by any stretch of the imagination (as there is no consensus around when life begins and the abortion-rights movement doesn't exist to protect choice in general), and the available substitutes -- "anti-abortion" and "abortion-rights" -- are accurate and inoffensive, even if the movements themselves don't favor these terms.
Does wikipedia have an established standard around the naming of political movements? If not, I'd say we should opt for the most politically neutral language available. -- Rocketfairy 13:40, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
(Reset indent) I'm not talking about the use of the term in general; if I was, I'd be doing it on Pro life, not here. As I said, the question here is about a single issue. You recommend I google pro-life and look at "their website"; I went ahead and did so. Among the first 10 links are the US Conference of Catholic Bishops (opposes euthanasia, capital punishment and the invasion of Iraq, considers these positions integral to a culture of life) and National Right to Life ("Other congressional issues" doesn't have any reference to capital punishment or war). What unites these groups? What unites the groups opposing EC?
iirc the term pro-choice appears once in the article; if we can agree on an acceptable substitute, I'd be happy to change it. "Abortion rights" isn't a good fit here, as the pro-ec lobby tends to reject the idea that EC is abortifacient. But I'd definately be open to alternatives. (For the record, I don't tend to call myself pro-choice; I consider the term arrogant and not particularly precise.)
And, yes there is debate over whether or not embryos are alive. -- Rocketfairy 02:36, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
There are references all over the internet to "studies that show pregnancy will occur in 60% of natural cycles in fertile couples." The presumption being that the other 40% of the time embryos could have been created and yet failed to implant. None reference their sources, though.
I wasn't able to find that particular study (if it exists). I did find here a pregnancy rate of 66.7% in cycles where intercourse occured on Peak Day of cervical mucus. And this study found a pregnancy rate of 71.4% (in women with prior pregnancy) to 80.9% (in nulligravidas) in the first cycle for women trained in a mucus-only fertility awareness method. So the lowest figure for failure to implant (assuming all cycles resulted in embryos being conceived) would be 19.9%.
For a high figure, I searched for IVF studies. This site claims a 40% pregnancy rate for transfer of one embryo (so a 60% failure to implant). This study claims a 23.9 to 36.4% implantation rate for IVF (so a 63.6-76.1% failure to implant).
"Fertilised embryos naturally fail to implant some 40 to 60 percent of the time" is the current statement in this article. I'm not sure what to change it to, but hope the studies I've found will give someone else ideas. Lyrl 14:52, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
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link)David Ruben Talk 00:13, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Couples of normal fertility having intercourse at random times of the cycle have a 24% per-cycle pregnancy rate (see the next-to-last sentence in this abstract). Couples using fertility awareness methods to time intercourse have the higher pregnancy rates I cited above in the first cycle of trying - if you look at the studies, you will see that pregnancy rates in the second and later cycles are much lower. If a couple is using a fertility awareness method to time intercourse, a diagnosis of subfertility can be made after six months rather than one year.
The rate of non-pregnancy in a cycle is the maximum theoretical rate of failure to implant. It is likely that some or even most of the non-pregnancies were due to conception not occuring, but there is currently no way to tell for sure which explanation is the correct one. Lyrl 03:06, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
IVF is only done on infertile couples. Failure to implant in that population is significantly higher than in couples of normal fertily. I would only support the use of IVF implantation rates as an absolute maximum.
In couples of normal fertility, studies have detected pregnancy in up to 80% of women after one cycle of trying conceive (see references above). The statement "the majority of fertilizations do not lead to a (detectable) pregnancy" is blatantly false.
Chemical pregnancies are detected chemically, with a home pregnancy test or a blood beta test. The very sensitive tests available now can detect virtually all implantations, even if miscarriage occurs after just a couple of days. Just because a pregnancy does not develop enough to be confirmed visually on an ultrasound (approx. 6th week of pregnancy, 4th week after conception, 3rd week after implantation) does not mean the pregnancy is "not detectable." Lyrl 23:07, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Here is a pregnancy rate of 66.7% in cycles where intercourse occured on Peak Day of cervical mucus. And this study found a pregnancy rate of 71.4% (in women with prior pregnancy) to 80.9% (in nulligravidas) in the first cycle for women trained in a mucus-only fertility awareness method. So the lowest figure for failure to implant (assuming all cycles resulted in embryos being conceived) would be 19.9%. Much less than 50%. Lyrl 23:51, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
If 66.7% of couples acheived a detectable pregnancy in a single cycle of intercourse near ovulation, then at most 33.3% of embryos failed to implant. The topic at hand is implantation failure, not early miscarriage, so the subsequent miscarriage rate is not relevant. But the implantation failure rate (assuming all cycles resulted in conception - which there is no way to verify) of 33.3% is. Lyrl 00:14, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
The discussion at hand is failure to implant, not early miscarriage. While emotionally the same for many people, there is a distint difference in the biology of what happened to both the embryo and the woman. It is not possible to determine if timing is a relevant factor in implantation, as poor timing is also going to reduce the number of conceptions occuring. However, studies have been done on timing of intercourse and early miscarriage [10] showing overall no effect (although a subset of women do see an effect, they are a small enough percentage of the population to not effect the overall numbers).
Also, implantation occurs 6-12 days after ovulation. Short luteal phases of less than 12 days can be a cause for RPL - but that has to do with the woman, and not with the embryo or when intercourse occured relative to ovulation. Because of the very short life of human ova (typically 6-12 hours), timing of intercourse has very little effect on timing of conception. Sperm can live in the female reproductive tract for up to five days. Lyrl 00:14, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm not happy with the latest round of changes, but I do admin that the "before" has problems, too. Therefore, I'm going to give this some though and see if I can improve on it. Al 22:35, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Another thought to consider: someday there will be the advent of artificial womb, and that will raise the question, is the artificial womb 'pregnant'?
The word origin means 'before birth.' With an artificial womb, will there be a 'birth'? Darrowby 23:59, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
The use of "pregnancy" to mean from conception (or LMP) is not just still around here or there, it's widespread, practically everywhere. In medical use with (naturally) pregnant women, I think LMP or conception is probably much more commonly used for counting than implantation, at least in U.S. Use in books is common. There is some debate by doctors. Legal definitions vary and may conflict--many U.S. states use conception or fertilization. There are some pro-life physician orgs that either define preg. from conception, or define the killing of a fertilized egg as abortion. Given all this (way more than I originally expected, as I originally assumed the implantation def. would be near-universal until I searched and found otherwise) I have to say that this article should not try to adopt or promote one view in a situation where there are multiple prominent views. (This is covered in the NPOV policy.) The reader is supposed to decide, according to the policy, we don't have to hold the reader's hand and force them to accept a position. If the facts are there, no spin is needed. I went ahead and added examples of the other def's in current use. Darrowby 13:17, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
David, thanks again for chiming in to clarify these matters. Al 03:50, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
There is no source for "early spontaneous abortions are generally not detected as pregnancies." In the U.S., half of pregnancies are unplanned. Meaning half are planned - and those women hoping to be pregnant are likely to be doing pregnancy testing, even before their period is due (some boxes of HPTs advertise "can be used 5 days before your period is due"). And a significant fraction of the unplanned pregnancy women know that they are at risk of pregnancy that cycle, and again are likely to be using pregnancy tests. Modern home pregnancy tests are capable of detecting a pregnancy just 1-2 days after implantation (3-4 days for the cheapie tests). Therefore, I am suspicious of the quoted statement. Lyrl 22:45, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Also, what definition of pregnancy is this article going by? "Of those that do implant, about 25% are miscarried in the first month of pregnancy" references a study about 6 weeks LMP. Saying "the first month of pregnancy" implies that pregnancy should be calculated from conception. Lyrl 22:49, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I hear you but that's what the citation says. If you have another, perhaps we could include it, too.
Consider that an implantation that aborts quickly won't even cause a missed period, so it doesn't count as an established pregnancy. Al 04:46, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
The fact of the matter is, the primary mode of action of EC is ovulation prevention. Therefore no egg is ever fertilized, therefore, saying EC works by preventing implantation is extremely misleading. How can it prevent the implantation of something that was never created in the first place? The implantation mechanism of EC is only hypothetical, it still remains unproven scientifically, so once again, it is extremely misleading to say EC works by doing something that isn't even proven. While I understand your concern that IF you use a specific definition of pregnancy favorable to a POV, and IF you err on the side of caution and assume EC is doing something that has only been suggested hypothetically (and has not been demonstrated to actually be occuring) then there is a chance the perhaps a women becomes "pregnant" but that pregnancy is ended before implantation can occur. However, because this situation is so conditional and precarious, it would seem folly to define EC by it. That said, I personally believe this POV can be covered in another section (which I believe it already is). In fact, even the opening section has a sentence about this POV. If this isn't sufficient, then maybe there is another way to word the opening line that is a compromise, but as it stands the current version is much more accurate than the "implantation" version.-- Andrew c 13:26, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Sperm live for up to five days, though they average only three. See? Al 00:00, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Let's all work on reaching a consensus for a new infobox to be placed on each individual birth control method's article. I've created one to start with on the Wikipedia Proposed Infoboxes page, so go check it out and get involved in the process. MamaGeek ( Talk/ Contrib) 12:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Can someone explain this? I thought the edit was helpful, but having the title of the page part of the hyperlink, and the descriptive commentary not part of the hyperlink (as with a number of other EL entries). So why was it reverted?-- Andrew c 18:08, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
There are a few quotes in Controversy over post-fertilization effects of EC that aren't cited, and I, sadly, don't have time this week to look them up. Could anyone else do that for me?
I also just changed references to "fertilized egg" to the more scientifically accurate "zygote". -- BCSWowbagger 05:10, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
This article states that "ECPs are not to be confused with chemical abortion drugs like Mifepristone (formerly RU-486) that act after implantation has occurred."
However, articles such as this one (note the NEJM excerpt near the bottom) indicate that while a large dose (~600mg) of mifepristone can be used to induce abortion, it can also be used in a lower dose (~10mg) as an emergency contraceptive in much the same way as Plan B, acting primarily by preventing ovulation. (See also this AAFP article. Seems to me that this article should acknowledge that, but I'd rather somebody more conversant with the science did that if possible. -- Calair 04:33, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
I've made a partial revert of the recent edits in this section:
"organizations don't like the fact" sounds very unprofessional and reminds me of a childs taunt. I've changed it back to "organizations have expressed concern" because I think it's better writing for an encyclopedia article.
I changed "some parts of the country" back to "many parts of the country" as refusals to provide EC has been documented all over the U.S. (see the reference I added).
I changed "might" to "may" because it's better grammer, and re-added "reasonable" to clarify that these organizations want EC to be readily available, not just technically available for women willing to jump through legal hoops. I left the syntax changes to that sentence, though, as it does seem a little easier to read now.
I removed the quotation marks around women's right to medically appropriate, effective, and legal reproductive health services. If we disagree on the wording, let's come up with an alternative. But just putting quotes to imply that women don't actually have a right to health care - is not something I'm going to agree with.
I reworded the last sentece somewhat: "regardless" sounds more professional to me than "in spite of," and having both beliefs and convictions listed looked redundent so I deleted one. And added the ref to the Planned Parenthood article at the end. Lyrl Talk Contribs 17:53, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I'd like to start by saying that I'm glad that you didn't just revert me out of hand, but that I feel some parts of your partial revert aren't appropriate. I don't care about the re-adding of convictions (though for some reason beliefs and convictions sounds better to me) and I care less about re-adding might (again my mistake), but I really am upset about the "organizations have expressed concern". I mean, even if my wording has the ring of a childish taunt it contains more truth than the other version. It seems to gloss it all over - they really are upset, and are only concerned about how many of the pills they can sell. Sorry, but that is it.
As for also I like "inspite of", because "regardless" is again trying to gloss over the fact that pharmacist is being held hostage, being forced to violate deeply held beliefs.
And "resonable" is also irksome, but I don't know any alternative yet.
Chooserr 18:06, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Someone should probably add the info that FDA plans to make emergency contraception over-the-counter for women 18 and over. Remember 17:28, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
In Section 3.2, International availability--United States, the first paragraph should:
References:
December 16, 2003 Final questions (PDF)
December 16, 2003 Transcript (PDF)
69.208.222.59 18:42, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
In Section 1.3, ECPs-Contraindications & Interactions:
Reference:
American Academy of Pediatrics Committee on Adolescence (2005). Emergency contraception. Pediatrics. Oct; 116(4):1026-35. PMID 16147972
"Safety and Contraindications of Emergency Contraception", page 1030:
69.208.222.59 18:44, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
The study reports I have actually read have been ambiguous. While the researchers always conclude with statements sounding like the study disproved any anti-implantation effect, if you actually read the study, other things jump out at me. The two main points:
Also consider that some studies have tested for anti-implantation effects by testing for hCG, a hormone that is not detectable until after implantation. And then say that because they did not detect this chemical in animals given EC, EC must not interfere with implantation. The logic here escapes me.
While it is obvious EC prevents pregnancy primarily by delaying ovulation, and the article currently seems rather balanced in presenting the possibility of a secondary anti-implantation effect, many editors seem convinced that such a secondary effect has been disproved. So I'm just trying to put some information out there to keep in mind during future edits. Lyrl Talk Contribs 23:32, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
I just reverted to restore some statistics related to the abortion rate and number of unintended pregnancies. I tend to think these are relevant to the article, since preventing unintended pregnancies is preciely the purpose behind contraception. Abortion rates speak to the number of unintended pregnancies. I can envision a student researching this topic and finding those stats to be useful... So I would keep them in. Thoughts? -- TeaDrinker 00:27, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit conflict, ha ha almost identical posts] Here is the place to discuss removing the longstanding content. As I said, these numbers are relevent because there is a dominant POV that EC reduces future abortions. Maybe this needs to be qualified in some manner, or presented in a more NPOV manner, but I clearly do not think removing the numbers is the answer. What do others think?-- Andrew c 00:28, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
(This was written before the other posts)
Rape is specifically mentioned in the stats. The controversy over whether hospital emergency rooms should offer EC to rape victims is certainly relevent to this article, and statistics on how many rapes result in pregnancy, and how many of those pregnancies could be prevented by offering EC, are certainly relevent. Arguing over the applicability of the stats (i.e. not all rape victims go to hospital emergency rooms) is one thing, completely removing them is another.
If someone uses no form of contraception, they often realize the next day that was a bad idea, and at that point can seek emergency contraception. If a condom breaks, the woman may seek emergency contraception. What percentage of women will seek such treatment varies depending on how accessible EC is. Again, I can see debate over the exact numbers, but complete deletion of the material is not something I agree with.
This material has been in this article for a long time. It is the responsibility of the person making the changes to justify them on the talk page (if they are disputed), and is customary on wikipedia to leave articles in their original format while debates are carried out. Lyrl Talk Contribs 01:09, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I just have a quick questions on the failure stats of ECs presented in the box in the right hand corner. Why is it comparing the perfect use of IUDs to the typical use of ECs? Aren't they different? How can there be a "typical" use for ECs? All you have to do is take the pill right? Shouldn't that be perfect use for ECs then? Any help answering these questions would be appreciated. Chooserr 02:22, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
I saw today's revert of Othnielj, and got to thinking. Obviously, his edit was out of line and NPOV (to say the least), but why aren't there any anti-EC advocacy groups listed in the external links? I mean, there are more than a few blatantly biased pro-EC advocates on there, so should we maybe find some balance here? -- BCSWowbagger 00:43, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
To Andrew c.: On the Emergency contraception page, I'm afraid we can't leave the sentence you restored today as is ("ECPs are not to be confused with chemical abortion methods that act after implantation has occurred."). I understand that you retained (with heavy qualification) the "some consider ECPs abortifacient" statement a few paragraphs down, but that's not good enough. To leave intact, with no qualifier at all, a sentence that states "EC is not abortion" (which this sentence, in effect, does) is POV in the extreme. I'll wait a bit for you to tone down its "absoluteness" before doing so again myself. Thanks. Cross-posting this to your Talk. JDG 19:39, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I was just reading the article and the sentence "The FDA had more pledged to rule on the application by September 1, 2005" caught my eye as it doesn't really make sense to me. The second part of the sentence isn't much better either - the present tense is used to describe something that seemed to occur last year (according to my interpretation of what the sentence is trying to say). Overall it just seems to jump from September 2005 to August 2006 without mentioning what happened in the intervening period (no pun intended).
Also I noticed the events of August 24, 2006 seem to be mentioned twice - the first time just a few sentences after the above mentioned section, and secondly at the end of the section. I don't what to touch the article myself as it seems to be a 'hot' topic so perhaps someone more familiar with this article could tidy the above and clarify what happened for the benefit of the reader. Ninja-lewis 00:39, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
The article currently says "the first two mechanisms (preventing ovulation and fertilization, respectively) fully account for all successful uses of emergency contraception." The following are quotes from the studies that supposedly support this assertation:
[EC taken on day 10 of the cycle]... the remaining (three participants) presented significant shortness of the luteal phase with notably lower luteal P4 serum concentrations... Participants in Group D [EC taken in late follicular phase] had normal cycle length but significantly lower luteal P4 serum concentrations. [17]
Ovulatory dysfunction, characterized by follicular rupture associated with absent, blunted or mistimed gonadotropin surge, occurred in 35%, 36% and 5% of standard, single dose or placebo cycles, respectively. [18] I'm reading that ovulation happened, but the hormones needed to maintain a pregnancy did not. This sounds like a possible fertilization-but-not-implantation situation to me.
This review describes studies in rats and monkeys that show no difference in pregnancy rates when taken shortly after ovulation - but does not address the luteal phase length and hormonal effects shown in humans when ECPs are taken before ovulation, but ovulation is not prevented. It also describes the study in the previous paragraph, but completely ignores the "ovulatory disfunction" found by that study.
I seriously question that these studies "prove" or "indicate" or otherwise provide strong evidence against postfertilization effects of EC. Lyrl Talk Contribs 14:49, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
After intercourse, sperm move through the cervix and arrive in the fallopian tubes beginning 1.5 minutes after ejaculation. All sperm that are going to do so have arrived in the fallopian tubes within 45 minutes after ejaculation. Sperm stick to the walls of the fallopian tubes, and are released in waves over a period of several days as they wait for the arrival of an egg. (See explanations by sperm physiologist Dr. Joanna Ellington: [19] [20])
Because sperm are already waiting in the fallopian tubes, taking EC hours after intercourse is not going to affect sperm transport. Taking bcp pills on a regular basis changes cervical mucus in a way that prevents sperm from ever getting into the uterus or fallopian tubes. Again, this does not apply to post-coital use of EC, because the sperm are already in the fallopian tubes - any changes it causes in cervical mucus is closing the barn door after the horse got out, so to speak.
The theory about EC changing the tubal transport of ova/embryos would actually be a postfertilization effect - embryos don't try to implant in the uterus until 6-12 days after fertilization. By increasing the speed at which embryos travel through the tubes, hormonal contraceptives might cause them to arrive in the uterus too soon, when they aren't ready to implant, and they just fall out of the woman. Lyrl Talk Contribs 14:47, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Since the U.S. government is considered a very reliable source, I will post this link to the FDA's Q&A. It is unclear on the mechanism, but it is very clear on what EC does: inhibits ovulation, and inhibits fertilization. Unless there are a whole bunch of darned good studies that have a contrary conclusion, the article must retain the statement of this mechanism. It seems to me, Lyrl, that you are on the verge of violating WP:OR in the way in which you are ignoring conclusions and drawing new ones yourself, although I hear your complaint about article bias and am sympathetic. I will re-add the reference to the fertilization-prevention mechanism (without further details about cervical mucus, etc., since I have been unable to substantiate that) at my next opportunity and await further comment. -- BCSWowbagger 23:16, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
I think something is messed up with the references. There are only 43 unique references, but when the page is rendered on my screen, it lists 84, and most of them are repeats. Some references are cited multiple times (they have superscript letters preceding them), yet most of the intrapage links are broken. I tried to fix this problem, but something is still wrong. Things look fine in the preview, so I am thinking it may be a coding or rendering problem that I can't fix. Is anyone else experiencing strange numbering things (such as the very first footnote being numbered 43?) -- Andrew c 20:21, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
As the article clearly and correctly states, the morning after pill is not an abortifacient, and can hardly "end" a pregnancy three days after intercourse, as implantation would not have occurred in that time. -- Someone else 02:58, 20 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Yeah, and I'll ask my doctor her opinion about transubstantiation. --
Someone else 03:05, 20 Sep 2003 (UTC)
She says she's against it. Please don't put misinformation here. The views of both "sides" are adequately represented in this article. -- Someone else 03:12, 20 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Yes, and that statement was written after I characterized your prior change as misinformation. The article appropriately addresses a medical topic by considering it medically first and addressing moral concerns later. It doesn't need a discursive paragraph on religious opinions before it addresses scientifice concerns: it addresses religious concerns at the appropriate place. -- Someone else 03:24, 20 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Read the mechanisms in the article. It should be stated that it prevents pregnancy, not conception. Removed "Because a contraceptive is literally anything which prevents conception, when taken after the moment of conception the morning after pill acts as an abortifacient." which is illogical: the first part of the sentence does not imply the latter part. You're not representing the viewpoint correctly, let alone attributing it (as it is later in the article). -- Someone else 03:36, 20 Sep 2003 (UTC) -- Someone else 03:36, 20 Sep 2003 (UTC)
The second is both quaint and bizarre, implying that eggs are fertilized in an ovary, and that an ovary and womb are synonymous. -- Someone else 03:58, 20 Sep 2003 (UTC)
removing "A contraceptive is literally anything which prevents conception. When the morning after pill is taken prior to conception it indeed acts as a contraceptive, but when taken after the moment of conception it acts as an abortifacient. " is an improvement. My point is that the argument you seem so intent on pursuing is is adequately presented later in the article, in a more appropriate place, and in a more readable manner. -- Someone else 04:09, 20 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Later in the article means that I think medical discussion should be first, and ethical discussion after. The article says it is known as emergency contraception, which is simply true, not a viewpoint. -- Someone else 04:30, 20 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Well, so you apparently think. I myself prefer to think that people might actually like an article about the morning after pill, rather than about the ethics of the morning after pill. -- Someone else 05:35, 20 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I agree with Someone else the article is fine as it is, it already presents both POV's.Also a slap on wrist for BuddhaInside. Minor edits are for typo's, fixing broken links, and changes in formatting.Adding and deleting content is not minor, and in an edit war situation you should never mark edits as minor. Theresa knott 07:35, 20 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Here is my proposition.
What do you think ?
Hmmm... we know it is available in the US, France, UK, Albania, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, Israel, Morocco, Norway, Portugal, South Africa, Australia, and Sweden. What places have made it inaccessible? -- Someone else 09:25, 20 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Reading this article, I'm unclear as to whether the pill (in the emergency mode, taken soon after sex) is a contraceptive or not. Does it prevent conception (fertilization of the egg) or not? If my prior understanding of the function is correct, it acts as a form of birth control by preventing implantation of the zygote, but not as a contraceptive like condoms. — Daniel Quinlan 06:53, Sep 21, 2003 (UTC)
Just as an FYI, if all the factors are right and conception (fertilization) does occur as a result of intercourse, it occurs less than seven minutes after ejaculation.
See http://www.drspock.com/article/0,1510,5049,00.html for a more detailed explanation.
Pianoman123 08:53, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
3 changes, Anthere. The first is describing the pill as acting to prevent implantation:
That's a nice reference and the french/americans do not define embryo or fetus differently. But if you find a french (or any other countries) pharmacoepia that lists the morning after pill as an 'abortifacient' i will be VERY surprised: it just isn't one. I don't think it's a national difference. The only thing I would differ with your 2nd favorite encyclopedia is the claim that the loss of ANY embryo is abortion: I think the term more stringently defined would call only the loss of an implanted embryo an abortion; Pregnancy starts when implantation occurs: the only confusion on this matter is that it can only be spoken of retrospectively: in common speech one never has the opportunity to say "I'm pregnant" until well after implanation has already occurred. -- Someone else 08:32, 21 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Your point of view is very interesting, but I disagree with some points.
First, tough that is "private" stuff, I must respectfully disagree with the in common speech one never has the opportunity to say "I'm pregnant" until well after implanation has already occurred.
"Well after" is very much undefined. When I decided to get pregnant one year in december, we had sexual relationship on the 1rst of january, and morning sickness (morning was an understatement) started on the 4th. On the 5th of january, I went to a medical facility (in USA) for an unrelated medical pb that required medical treatment. When I indicated I was pregnant, and wanted to be sure the medication would not be a pb to the foetus, medical staff answered me I was not, I could not, and even if I was, I would not be said so before I was at least 1 week late. Followed a good bunch of discussion after which they agreed to make a test (I mean, I was a pain, right ?). The test was positive. Inside themselves, I know they admitted the fact, for they asked me to come back two days later for an echo, become of a lump that made them fear of a nidation was occurring at the wrong place (a couple days later, the lump was gone, very likely, it was the yellow corpse, which is very enlarged at 5 days of pregnancy). They then told me the medication was fine to take for a pregnant woman, but they refused to officially admit me as pregnant. I did not understand at that time :-) It is not until 3 weeks later that I was registered pregnant, even though I had already lost 6 pounds from "morning" sickness.
Something you might find interesting as well, is that the french length of pregnancy is 10 days longer than the american one. Curious eh ?
Now, to come back to the abortifacient aspect, I would not even try to check because I know it is classified in an in-between class, that we call "contraceptif d'urgence". It is of course advertised as a contraceptive. I found for you a link to the legal discussion at our assembly which occured in 2000.
http://www.assemblee-nat.fr/cri/leg11/html/20010007.asp
I will translate to you a very interesting part of it, that will show you perhaps that "medical definition" has its limits, and that we should not limit ourselves to it in our description of the issue.
Monsieur le président, mesdames les ministres, madame la rapporteuse, mes chers collègues, c'est encore à la sauvette que nous discutons d'un texte qui pose d'importants problèmes de société à l'occasion d'une niche parlementaire, un jour de moindre affluence dans l'hémicycle. Car la proposition de loi sur la contraception d'urgence n'est pas un texte anodin, à caractère technique, destiné à remédier à un simple dysfonctionnement juridique.
En proposant que la pilule du lendemain puisse être distribuée par des infirmières dans les collèges et lycées sans autorisation parentale et sans prescription médicale, ce texte pose très sérieusement plusieurs problèmes politiques et sociaux très importants. Quelle conception du rôle des parents et de leurs activités véhicule-t-il ? Comment s'insère-t-il dans les objectifs de santé publique et quelle image donne-t-il des responsabilités médicales, éducatives et politiques ? Premièrement : qu'entend-on exactement par contraception d'urgence ? Il semble qu'aujourd'hui il n'existe que deux produits susceptibles de répondre à cette appellation : le Tétragynon, à base d'oestrogènes, et le Norlevo, à base de progestérone. Seul le second serait concerné par le texte dont nous discutons, parce qu'il ne présenterait pas de dangers pour la santé. Ces pilules sont-elles réellement une méthode de contraception ? La notice du Norlevo indique : « La contraception d'urgence est une méthode de rattrapage qui vise à éviter l'ovulation ou l'implantation d'un oeuf fécondé en cas de rapport sexuel non protégé. »
En d'autres termes, soit le Norlevo a un effet nul, si le rapport a été non fécondant ou si l'ovule fécondé est en train de s'implanter, soit il a un effet contraceptif en empêchant la fécondation, soit il empêche l'implantation.
Mais l'implantation de quoi ? De l'ovule fécondé, c'est-àdire de l'embryon. La vie de l'embryon, de l'être humain, commence dès la fécondation. Il possède dès ce moment tout son patrimoine génétique, donc, quel que soit le nom qu'on lui donne, la prise de levonorgestrel peut avoir pour effet d'arrêter le développement de la vie humaine. Il n'y a en effet aucun doute scientifique sur le fait que la vie humaine commence dès la conception.
Tout le reste n'est que bavardage.
Depuis que le débat sur ce sujet a commencé, on nous affirme que la grossesse commence à la nidation de l'embryon et que c'est la raison pour laquelle la prise de Norlevo ne peut être assimilée à une interruption volontaire de grossesse. Mais il n'existe aucune définition juridique ou scientifique permettant de vérifier cette théorie.
Selon la définition de l' Encyclopaedia Universalis , l'état de grossesse commence à l'instant de la fécondation et se termine neuf mois plus tard environ. Quoi qu'il en soit, qu'on l'appelle grossesse ou pas grossesse, quand il y a eu fécondation, la vie humaine a commencé et le Norlevo interrompt bien la vie dans ce cas-là. La réalité est que le Norlevo peut être une contraception d'urgence dans certains cas, mais qu'il peut également être un abortif d'urgence. Ce n'est pas une hypothèse minime, quand on sait que, dans les vingt-quatre heures, après un rapport sexuel non protégé au moment fertile du cycle de la femme, 30 % des rapports ont déjà été fécondants. L'expression consacrée de « contraception d'urgence » est donc limitative et trompeuse. Que l'on soit pour ou contre la distribution du Norlevo dans les collèges et lycées, cette réalité mérite d'être reconnue. Les enjeux psychologiques et moraux, puis les enjeux de santé publique sont tels que nous avons le devoir de dire la vérité sur cette question à nos concitoyens. Pour cette même raison, il est indispensable de respecter l'objection de conscience du corps médical - médecins, infirmières et pharmaciens - qui ne peut être contraint à distribuer le Norlevo en raison de ses effets.
Deuxièmement, le débat sur la pilule du lendemain fait naître plusieurs questions qui relèvent du domaine de la santé publique. L'absorption d'une pilule de Norlevo équivaut à celle de vingt-cinq comprimés d'anticonceptionnel traditionnel. Ce n'est pas rien.
L'objectif affiché est de limiter les grossesses chez les jeunes filles. Or on peut se demander si le Norlevo aura un véritable impact en ce domaine. C'est au moins un sujet de débat, que Mme la ministre a du reste évoqué dans son intervention. La possibilité de prendre ce médicament ne va-t-elle pas encourager une certaine irresponsabilité chez les filles et surtout chez les garçons ?
Mr. President, Mesdames the ministers, Madam the recorder, my dear colleagues, it is still hastily that we discuss a text which poses significant problems of company at the time of a parliamentary niche, one day of less multitude in the hemicycle. Because the private bill on emergency contraception is not a text pain-killer, in technical matter, intended to cure a simple legal dysfunction. By proposing that the pill of the following day can be distributed by nurses in the colleges and colleges without parental authorization and medical regulation, this text very seriously poses several political and social problems very significant.
Which design of the role of the parents and their activities does it convey? How does it form part of the objectives of public health and which image it gives medical, educational and political responsibilities?
Firstly: what does one hear exactly by emergency contraception? It seems that today there are only two products likely to answer this name: Tétragynon, based on oestrogens, and Norlevo, containing progesterone. Only the second would be concerned with the text which we discuss, because it would not present dangers to health. Are these pills really a method of contraception? The note of Norlevo indicates: "emergency contraception is a method of correction which aims at avoiding the ovulation or the establishment of an egg fertilized in the event of sexual relation not protected" In other words, is Norlevo has a null effect, if the report/ratio were not fertilizing or if the fertilized ovule is being established, either it has a contraceptive effect by preventing fecundation, or it prevents the establishment. But establishment of what? Fertilized ovule, it is -àdire embryo. The life of the embryo, human being, starts as of fecundation. It has as of this moment all its genetic inheritance, therefore, whatever the name that one gives him, the catch of levonorgestrel can cause to stop the development of the human life.
There is indeed no scientific doubt on the fact that the human life starts as of the design. All the remainder is only chattering. Since the debate on this subject started, it is affirmed us that the pregnancy starts with the nidation of the embryo and that this is why the catch of Norlevo cannot be comparable with a termination of pregnancy. But there is not any legal or scientific definition making it possible to check this theory. According to the definition of Encyclopaedia Universalis, the state of pregnancy starts at the moment of fecundation and finishes nine months later approximately. At all events, that it is called pregnancy or not pregnancy, when there was fecundation, human life started and Norlevo stops well the life in this case. Reality is that Norlevo can be an emergency contraception in certain cases, but which it can also be abortive emergency. It is not a tiny assumption, when it is known that, in the twenty-four hours, after a sexual relation not protected at the fertile time from the cycle from the woman, 30 % of the reports/ratios were already fertilizing. The devoted expression of "emergency contraception" is thus restrictive and misleading. That one is for or counters the distribution of Norlevo in the colleges and colleges, this reality deserves to be recognized. Psychological and moral stakes, then the stakes of public health are such as we have the duty to say the truth on this question to our fellow-citizens. For this same reason, it is essential to respect the conscientious objection of the medical profession - doctors, nurses and pharmacists - who cannot be constrained to distribute Norlevo because of his effects.
Secondly, the debate on the pill of the following day gives birth to several questions which come under the field of the public health. The absorption of a pill of Norlevo is equivalent to that of twenty-five compressed of contraceptive traditional. It is nothing. The posted objective is to limit the pregnancies in the girls. However one can wonder whether Norlevo will have a true impact in this field. It is at least a subject of debate, which Mrs. the minister has of the remainder evoked in her intervention. Won't the possibility of taking this drug encourage a certain irresponsibility in the girls and especially among boys?
Mme Boutin was one of our 16th presidential candidate at our last elections. She is very focused on family, society, and bioethics. The dignity of the human person is at the center of her discourse.
She is a journalist, not a doctor. And not doctors only decide of the definition of words.
Anthère 11:03, 21 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Here [6] is a Catholic perspective on how pro-abortionists having been working to change the definition of words like "conception" and "abortion" in order to make pre-implant termination of the product of conception somehow not be abortion. - BuddhaInside
Medical researchers needs to have "alive" status be as late as possible, in order to use stem cells.
Anthère
Whoah, whoah, whoah. This nitpicking about whether an unimplanted embryo counts as a pregnancy is completely beside the point. The primary method of operation for the morning-after pill is prevention of ovulation, with a small theoretical risk of interfering with implantation that hasn't even been shown to occur scientifically (see here for example), a risk which is also theoretically posed by the normal birth control pill. If you've already conceived when you take the morning-after pill, you'll stay pregnant. Conservatives hear about that "small theoretical risk" and jump all over it trying to make it out as the primary method of operation, but that doesn't make it so. DopefishJustin (・∀・) 21:45, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)
Some additional Canadian data to add. The morning after pill is currently available from a pharmacist in British Columbia, Quebec and Saskatchewan. On May 19, 2004 it was announced by the health minister that there was a proposal to make the pill available in all provinices from a pharamacist. I'm not sure if this is law yet because it gets into Canadian politics. Parliament was disolved before this could have been passed, because there was a new election coming. However the suggestion seems to have come from Health Canada, perhaps (likely) with proding from politicians (or the other way around). My guess would be its likely still in the works to be available in the other provinces.
There is also complaints about the fact that the woman has to talk to the pharmacist at all about it (as well as complainst from the religious right...i'll enclose two links at the end). Apparently a pharmacist could charge $20 for the "advice" plus the cost of the pills. In practice i don't think this would happen after the pill was readily available in cities because of competition although they might be able to charge what we call "the fill fee" which is the fee they get for putting together prescriptions (the article doesn't specify--this could be the concern but fill fees are often in the $10-15 range not $20 and if you look around you can find them much cheaper.
From what i can tell there are still Estrogen versions of the morning after pill in Canada (although they are only offering plan B at the pharmacies). I pick up my birth control from a local city clinic because i'm on low income. One time i made a comment about how i wasn't going to bother using it if just the condom broke (i use a back up method) because of how sick the pill made you, because i got migraines, smoked and had a second cousin who had a major stroke at 40 (these are all very good reasons not to take high estrogen.....although it would still be a personal decision, which i was basing on the other type i used working 60% of the time over a year, not with one accident). I have taken very low dose pills once for a few months to regulate but i would never take high estrogen (in fact they don't use those pills as much as they used to because women are getting pregnant on them...miss it by half an hour one day and you may not be safe...its good for a low dose set your clock thing though). She agreed that i was a bad risk factor for the estrogen pills as a morning after option and then told me that Plan B wouldn't make me sick but that just as important in my case it had no estrogen at all.
One difficulty that might arise is that for those of limited income most prescription drugs are covered (i never thought it all that fair i paid for my birth control but you could get the pill on the coverage i have). When it becomes non-prescription it is almost always delisted these days. You can appeal and i did for an epipen and i won, but i went around bureaucratic cirlces for 6 months and i'm generally good at that kind of thing. This might mean lower access for women who are poor in the country. For those of us that live in cities that have birth control (or sexuality) centres it doesn't make a large difference---at least on a weekday, as they sell it affordably. But even with the clinic in my city many women are not aware of it, or think it below them to go when they are qualified (in fact you don't need to prove anything). I mean, who has 6 months to appeal the morning after pill or is going to think to do so in advance?
Also in this city it means that a teenager has access to the morning after pill without their parents conscent. The clinic works on a strict confidentiality basis. If you seek it out they figure you are going to make your own choices about sex (they offer counselling when you first go, although most revolves around how to find the right type of birth control for you as well as safe sex and any STD tests you might want to have as well as how to have some of them (such as HIV) done annonomously---i did go as a teen because of the price factor but i don't remember if they talked much about if i wanted to have sex as i'd already done so (with contraception) but wanted to use the clinic. They are serious about this. I know one women (15 years ago) who went to her doctor to get the pill. He refused and told her parents. She got it off the clinic and the clinic refused to even look up if she was a client or to say anything to anyone.
I do know my mom needed it about 20 years ago. And the problems she encountered (well almost did) might be more common in countries where you need a doctor to prescribe. Her gynecologist gave it to her when she got ahold of him but generally it was very hard to get at the time. Even 10 years ago in Ottawa half of the hospitals wouldn't give it out and it was difficult to get on the weekends, although the feminist centres (and the university clinic that offered it) had a list of places that it could be prescribed at as well as where not to waste your time (problems of time were arising, waiting in an emergency room for a long time [its not urgent] just to find out the hospital doesn't offer the service can cause problems if repeated).
Search engining most got discount pharmacies however these two pages had information http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_emer04.htm and http://dawn.thot.net/cwhn.html
The religious tolerance page listed a study about teenagers use of morning after pill...are we able to cite that on here (i'm still learning exactly what can and can't be) that showed teens in didn't use it for birth control. The DAWN link has a lot of the Canadian news put on it together. DAWN stands for Disabled Women's Network and is a feminist group.
I'm going to try and edit in bits that apply to Canada. I'll check back or let me know what you think of the edit or comments here.-- Marcie 23:20, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Hey guys. I think the statement "The morning-after pill cannot be recommended as the main means of birth control because of its strong side effects and relatively low reliability. " is misleading. It has a 90% effectiveness give-or-take, and most women do not experience and strong side effects. See
http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/sex_relationships/facts/morningafterpill.htm
I hate to be the d*ck, but I would like to mark this as non-neutral until this is sorted out please. Sorry. (P.s. i'm not arguing that it should be the main means - just arguing about the reasons why)
-
Johnflux 08:46, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Johnflux 21:14, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Can any of you who believe that EC is an abortifacient point to one scientific peer reviewed article that actually shows EC given after fertilization of the egg can abort it (I use the term abortion loosely to include the destruction of a fertilized egg). As far as I can tell, this idea is simply conjecture. Scientifically, it has been shown that EC administration produces no statistical reductions in the rate of pregnancy when given after ovulation. Fertilization cannot occur prior to ovulation, therefore, if EC was producing abortions after fertilization one would expect a statistical reduction in the rates of pregnancy when EC is given after ovulation. Based on this information, isn't it proper to say there is no scientific support for the idea that EC can be an abortifacient. If changes in certain hormone levels or changes in the length of the woman's luteal phase were preventing implantation of the embryo to the uterus, this would have to lead to statistically significant reduction in pregnancy rates when ECs are given after ovulation. I think it is fair and just to give the facts that have scienitific acceptance different weight than statements that are mere hypotheses. As far as I can tell, the idea that EC is an abortifacient has no science to back it up.
The beginning of the article has "its use as a contraceptive is held to be immoral by some groups including the Catholic Church". This isn't a terribly useful statement since the Catholic Church considers all forms of contraception to be immoral (except for natural family planning). I'm sure there's no shortage of groups that oppose the pill, so is there one we can name that doesn't oppose all contraception? DopefishJustin (・∀・) 19:01, May 19, 2005 (UTC)
It could be better phrased, pointing out that Catholics oppose Plan B as something which causes abortions (it prevents implantation after conception). Catholic Crypt
I realize that the article as it stands could probably use some NPOV-ifying by an opponent of the pill, but some of the recent changes by 214.13.4.151 are not helpful to this end and it's hard for me to see how they are made in good faith. Some examples of these changes include changing occurrences of the word "woman" to "gravida" and "contraceptive" to "abortifacient".
His/her most recent edit changed the opening sentence to "The morning-after pill is a pill regimen designed primarily to interfere with the lining of the uterus to prevent implantation of a very young embryo." This is ridiculous. As a random example, see the FDA's page on the drug and the manufacturer's page, both of which describe preventing ovulation as the pill's primary (and presumably intended) effect. Unless you believe that the FDA and the manufacturer are both wrong (despite all the testing they must have done) or outright lying, interfering with implantation is not the primary or intended effect.
If there is a dispute about a statement in the article, you need to mention that it is disputed (or say "the pill's manufacturer claims that...but...") and then explain the nature of that dispute later in the article, attributing it to whatever persons or groups are making such a claim, or "opponents of the pill" if you don't have names handy. Changing the introductory paragraph to come down 100% on your side of the dispute with no explanation is not good enough for Wikipedia purely on informative grounds.
Also, to other well-meaning contributors who might come along and notice that the page seems to be inaccurate: it might be a recent change, so please check the article history to see if there is a better version that it can be reverted to rather than rewriting everything yourself. DopefishJustin (・∀・) 22:22, May 31, 2005 (UTC)
Much of Stevertigo's recent string of edits is redundant information that is already covered in the ==Controversy in relation to abortion== section (it was also largely POV, which I've did a little bit of NPOVing on). I propose that the redundant information be deleted, and any new information be evaluated and if it's appropriate for this article and adds to it's quality, be worked into the already existant sections like the above mentioned Controversy section. For example, some of the specific quotes can be kept but moved (though they should be re-formatted to be more encyclopedic and less like quotes in a magazine or newspaper article). Icarus 05:20, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
Whilst I disagree with 'pro-life' view point, I thought Stevertigo's had useful quotes on the issues as well as some interesting divergence of opinion within the 'pro-life'. I thought the article much improved for the extra information, but overall the article disorganised and need of tidy up. The sections indeed needed reorganising as some of the controversy issues came before even the description on the types emergency contraception and advise on their use.
I have reorganised the paragraphs. 'Controverses' was a 2nd level item ('==') and 'issues' & 'specific issues' sections were 3rd level ('==='), with one pointing out the opposition from 'pro-life' and one seeming more the counter-arguement, i have renamed them. Also it should be noted that the combined-pill EHCs are or have already been withdrawn due to the introduction of progesterone-only EHC. This has an impact on side-effects (eg past concern re oestrogen's effect for DVTs becomes irrelevant for progesterone-EHC).
Stevertigo's had a 3 pieces of hidden information that had asked not be deleted. They lost their 1-on-1 link to the text when I reorganised it and so I have pasted them in below. I have added some thoughts on the 3-points in what I hope will be taken as constructive.
David Ruben 17:28, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
are the United States Food and Drug Administration, National Institutes of Health, and the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists usually referred to, simply as "groups" as in the article?
-- Doldrums 09:23, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
Never heard this term used, User:85.154.20.87 can you elaborate? David Ruben 20:33, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
The term 'Emergency Birth Control' originated in Southern California as a term that is more accessible than 'Emergency Contraception', but which is nevertheless meaningful and accurate. Basically, the idea is that people - especially young people - will find 'Emergency Birth Control' easier to understand and remember than 'Emergency Contraception'.
I made a few changes in the "Controversy related to abortion" section. It used each of the terms at different times. Presumably, because the pro-life side wants to emphasize the level of development at that stage, and the pro-choice side wants to downplay it. "Fertilized egg" isn't entirely accurate, and "embryo", while technically accurate, is a bit misleading because in common usage, it usually refers to a later stage of development. So what I did was to use the most accurate term, blastocyst, the first time and add paranthetically that that's an early embryo stage. I later used "embryo" because most people don't know the word "blastocyst" and "embryo" is, after all, scientifically accurate.
I also removed "fertilization" from "there have likewise been some discrepancies regarding the very term "conception" (fertilization)." The very discrepancy is over whether or not the two are indeed synonyms, so it's POV to push that they are. -- Icarus 02:18, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
In reference to the second paragraph, a zygote almost immediately goes into cellular division so it is no longer a zygote when it is denied implantation. In addition the implantation of a zygote is impossible. Zygotes can't exchange chemicals, attach, or begin development of the ambilical cord. Only an embryo can attach to the uterus. Blastocyst is even less accurate. Changing zygote to embryo in the second paragraph would be more accurate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embryos
-- Shok 20:14, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
What needs to be done in order for everyone to be satisfied in removing the clean up tag?
This page uses many terms for the baby. At what stage (how many cells) is the baby in when it implants into the Uterus? Can't we just call it what it is: a BABY? 202.142.214.182 14:48, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I am moving the following paragraph out of the main page to the talk page in order to discuss its possible permanent deletion:
The first sentence above is almost identical to the first sentence of the following paragraph Pro-Life groups ... claim that such pills are "abortion pills", rather than "contraceptive pills." If people prefer the top sentence better than the second one, or want to integrate the two together, so be it, but I do not think they both belong because they convey the exact same bit of information: the fact that pro-life groups think EC causes abortions.
The second sentence above in regards to birth defects is completely baseless. If people want it included, it needs to be mentioned that the FDA has removed 'birth defects' from the list of side effects for the medication, and that studies involving women who continue to take birth control pills (same chemicals in EC) while pregnant suffered no birth defects in relation to the drug use. source If anyone wants the second sentence included, I'd like a citation of a Pro-lifer who makes this claim, and I'd like to see it presented in language the clearly illustrates the facts behind this claim (namely, that EC does not harm a fetus). For the time being, I have moved this paragraph to the talk page until these issue can be resolved.-- Andrew c 03:58, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure why
Chooserr is avoiding the talk page, but Chooserr has presented an alternative wording for these paragraphs in question:
In my opinion, this wording does not clear up the redundency issue that was part of my initial concern. Saying "there have been no conclusive studies" implies that the results are 'inconclusive' or a 'toss up' when in actuality, there has been NO causal relationship between the drugs and birth defects to the point where these warning have been removed from the drug information sheets. I clearly like David Ruben's wording better, but if Chooserr wants to work on combining the two or otherwise make their opinion known on this matter, maybe we can work on reaching a concensus instead of having 5 different people making big changes to that section all at the same time.-- Andrew c 00:59, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Hippocrite has recently deleted the whole first paragraph in the section on pro-life views. And Colle deleted the last sentence on the difficulties of determining whether someone is pregnant or not - the former may have been an over sight. Chooserr 00:53, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
I've decided that I will attempt to retain from edit warring, and try to explain my edits clearly on the talk pages, or in the summaries if I answer any questions posed to me after words. I'm not sure if this strategy will work, particularly because I doubt all other users will refrain from making reversions even if I do discuss with them, none the less I will attempt to rationalise it out.
My reason for reverting Alienus was that my addition (a rewording of content previously in the article) works towards explaining how it is hard to define pregnancy, and states briefly that pro-life and pro-choice people have varying definitions of pregnancy. I think this shouldn't be deleted, but maybe expanded a little more, and given a link to a site that explains these difference clearly. What do you think? Chooserr 04:04, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
re Side-Effects. Chooserr whilst your recent addition of some numbers to side effects incidence (eg headache 50% & nausea 20%) indeed make the previous "rarely" seem inappropriate, to which type of ECP are these figures for: combined oestrogren-Progesterone (Yupze) or emergency progesterone-only contraceptive pill (EPOC) ? If the older combined Yuzpe then yes I think I would agree (nausea figure seems about right - I'm surprised by, but wont dispute, the high incidence of headache). However Yuzpe been withdrawn in UK (?likewise elsewhere) for about 2 years. The incidence on EPOC of headache is, I believe, far less and particularly the rates of vomiting far lower & any nausea less intense than with the older regime. Indeed patients previously regularly reported vomiting on combined PC4 and needed additional doses if vomiting was too close to the time of dosage, but I have not (yet) encountered vomiting on EPOC Levonelle. Certainly both types have lowered incidence of side effects if taken with food rather than an empty stomach (?a source of discrepency between how high side effects can be and how high they need be in practice?). Of course causing side effects of nausea & vomiting is somewhat irrelevant when compared to the far higher rates of these symptoms if a pregnancy occurs and continues (not of course that this should have any bearing on a decission to use EC). David Ruben Talk 01:09, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
I edited it to be more general. I had a couple problems with Chooserr's last edits. I do not think it is appropriate to list %s. Because there are so many different forms of EC, and because I am not aware of any scholarly stastical analysis of all the different brands, it is misleading to quote a number found only on Plan B's datasheet. Also, a couple of the side effects I have not found listed anywhere. Finally, the sentence about heart attack and stroke does not really apply to side effects. There are lists of people who may not want to take EC, such as pregnant women, people with certain types of cancer, history of heart attack/stroke, etc... but thats different from 'side effects'. --
Andrew c
01:45, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
I assumed by side effect you meant any result (most likely detrimental) other than the desired result, and I believe that the increased risk to people who have had a heart attack or stroke of severe abdominal pain and blood clotes a side effect. Chooserr 01:49, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
My most recent edit - a reversion to Andrew C's version - was because David's is lacking in certain ways. Nothing extrordinarily big, but it does miss the last section on the OTC bills, and a reference to the Catholic document which it is forced contradiction with. Chooserr 00:07, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Chooserr, after recently looking at the Parental Notification article, I wonder if you could add some info to your recent addition to Emergency Contraception: There is also controversy over the Over the Counter bills considered by some states which would make it possible for a women to receive Emergency contraceptives without a prescription, or reporting a rape (if one has occurred).
Somewhat separately, given a previous section title is "Controversy in relation to abortion", would it be better to retitle this section as "Controversies over provision of EC" (or "Controversies over legal provision") with subheadings of "Provision for rape victims" (for the previous paragraph) and "Provision as OTC sales" (for this latest paragraph) or some such similar titles? David Ruben Talk 09:25, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
David,
I personally am not sure of all the specifics. There may be an minimum age - for now. This law also wouldn't allow provisions for the pharmacist to object on moral grounds. You can find more information here. Chooserr 06:45, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Copied from my talk page to keep discussion in one place:
I'm currently checking (google) to make sure that is an exact quote from the Church, but in the mean time I've re-added it for even though it may be slightly repetitive I believe that an exact quote wouldn't hurt, and it would be more verifiable than Wikipedia just coming out and vaguely point in the pro-life direction saying, "this is what they believe". Chooserr 00:08, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm generally a fan of quoting people in sufficient length to let them explain themselves, but this is overboard. It's just too big a quote for an article in which Catholicism is, to be frank, a minor footnote. If this were "Catholicism and emergency contraception", then such a large quote might be appropriate. Alienus 00:29, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
I do have a problem withy ou re-adding it, and I may well express my problem by reverting such an add. I never doubted the accuracy of the quote, just the relevance of so large a block of text for what ought to be an incidental subject. Perhaps you could quote relevant portions of it in place of your summary. Alienus 03:54, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree that this quote should not be included. It is long, and repeats information that is presented elsewhere in the article, and in that very section. The purpose of the quote is a long explanation why Catholics think EC is actually a type of abortion. Because this position is presented elsewhere in the article, I think the current version is sufficent enough to convey that the law is forcing Catholic hospitals to do something that they morally oppose. If I am missing something important about the quote, please tell me. -- Andrew c 02:27, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
I found a reliable source that basically echoes that the over the counter laws can be controversial [9]. Chooserr 03:49, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
[reset margins]I have reworked the section some, including quotes material from the bigger quote, a link to the quoted document, a link to another Catholic document, etc. I still have a problem with this version because I feel it is too wordy/redundent, but perhaps it is a comprimise we can all agree on. Personally, I would cut it down to two or three sentances max. For example:
And then move the Catholic's position up to the Emergency contraception in relation to abortion->Issues Against section.-- Andrew c 16:59, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand why "Controversy in relation to abortion" and "Controversy" are two different sections, with those names. They should either be merged, or named in a way that distinguishes them better. - GTBacchus( talk) 05:57, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
I believed that they should be seperate because one would discuss the pill its self giving information as to why everyone isn't using it and the other would talk about how different states are either trying to ban it or force hospitals and pharmacies to provide it. I'm tempted to add the two states (one of which I think is Missouri) that take the choice of the store/pharmacy to decide what they carry and sell away from them by forcing them to buy and stock ECs. Chooserr 06:02, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
First of all, your attempt at a revert was sloppy. You kept in my edits, but readded the older version, thus creating two copies of nearly every sentence in that section (but maybe that was a mistake). Next, you are ignoring the rational I have put forth for my edits. Your sentence about OtC is completely vague and meaningless, and ignores the fact that there is already a section about OtC controversy under the heading International availability. If you want to reorganize that section and add a header, do that. But adding that one unacceptable sentence under a different header does not help the article. Secondly, I made a case for why your long quote not be included. I then tried to cut things down, being concise while still keeping part of the quote and linking to the two sites. I asked you twice above, and I will ask you again. What exactly is being said in the quote that isn't included in my consise version, or other parts of the article? Remember this section is about the Mass. law, not the Church's position on EC, or the argument for EC being an abortificiant (which already has it's own section). So, I can't stop you from editing (nor would I want to), but could you please try to address these concerns and make a stronger case for your edits before readding them. -- Andrew c 14:28, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Hey I am pro-choice for the first trimester but CLEARLY this whole article is slanted toward the pro-abortion lobby. I think these folks are entitled to their viewpoints even if I don't agree with it 100%.
What I wanted to know is what happens if the woman IS already pregnant and takes the pill. She may be already pregnant, and not know it, from a previous encounter. Will the baby be harmed?
There is so much verbage trying to justify this drug, which some consider unsafe by the way, that needed info is left out or lost in a sea of words.
Oh, and one more thing I found odd. In a article 3,174 words long, the word baby does not appear one single time. Doesn't even unwanted or unplanned pregnacies involves babies??
Lets tighten this up people.
Less opinion, more facts.
-- 149.152.34.18 22:59, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
I think he or she had a valid question that is not answered in the article. The article does not say one way or the other whether or not the drug is harmful to the child. I think that’s a valid concern. The article reads as if any user of this drug would always get an abortion if she were already pregnant. There is no mention whatever what would happens to the development of the child, or children in the event of a multiple birth, if the drug is taken while the mother is already unknowningly pregnant and the mother latter chooses life. The lack of information is not proof the drug is safe. The advertisements I have seen for this drug do not boost among its talking points that the drug is safe for an existing child. -- 69.37.90.237 12:21, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Well I don't know about that. All kinds of drugs have been approved that make people sick or cause birth defects. Many hair treatments pills say right on the package that any woman of child bearing age whether she is pregnant or not must not even touch the pills. Another pain killer made my father very fat which lead to his getting diabetis. Then there is fin fyn or whatever. Latter these harmful drugs are pulled but not before the damage is done. Of course when you are talking about anything to do with abortion, the abortion cheerleaders last concern of all is the health of a fetus. That is of no concern whatever. -- 149.152.34.43 22:33, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Anon: I understand your concerns, but to include something in Wikipedia, it must be verifiable. If you have any data or sources that prove EC is harmful to fetus, please cite them. Pointing to the adverse health effects of other drugs, or mentioning personal anecdotes about your family, is not encyclopedic. I believe other editors have cited sources that explain how EC is not harmful to fetuses. As lyrl points out, oral contraception has been around for 40 years. Women may become pregnant without knowing it and continue to take the pill for a few months into their pregnancy. Case studies of these instances have shown no birth defects. Please read the section "II. Birth Defects" here, and check out their cited sources for even more information. -- Andrew c 15:31, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Proof is needed the drug is safe. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.37.254.159 ( talk • contribs) .
We had cited a paper without permission. I have since received persmission to cite it for wikipedia. I was also referred to a forthcoming updated version of the paper. For more information about this, see Wikipedia:Successful requests for permission#Emergency Contraception.-- Andrew c 20:27, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I'm super pro choice, and i can tell the bias in the article. Not neccesarily with what is said, but there is a pro choice tone. And the choice of facts. I'm sure all the facts are prettty accurate, but unfortunately overwhelming facts that seem to support one side could be considered biased. If there is overwhelming evidence that the nazis killed millions of people, and i placed that on an article, does it make me biased against nazis? probably, but it doesn't make me wrong.
don't they both prevent implantation.
You can not say one is a contraception and the other is an abortion just because of the time you take them.
whats the IUD classed as when its used as an EC —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blonde2max ( talk • contribs) 16:02, 5 May 2006
This section has been expanded a couple of times but reverted as off-topic to EC. To me, it's an interesting topic. I'm not sure if this is covered in any existing articles, but if not would anyone support making this its own article? Any name suggestions? Lyrl 22:06, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
True, but I'm not sure that would be the appropriate place to address the ethical issues of actions that prevent implantation (hormonal contraception, breastfeeding, and, as recently alleged by Prof. Bovens in the Journal of Medical Ethics, the rhythm method). The argument that hormonal contraception is immoral, but breastfeeding is OK due to the principle of double effect, etc. Lyrl 17:38, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
I found an article with a "fertilization vs. implantation debate" section: Abortifacient. Lyrl 00:50, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
"highly contested" vs "medically incorrect"
Al, I looked into this carefully and I easily find medical sources using "pregnancy" to refer to from conception. See The American Heritage® Stedman's Medical Dictionary (dictionary.com) and Langman's Medical Embryology p. 117 as examples. I do understand that it may seem clear-cut to some people, but the term varies in medical use, while "contested" is verifiable. I also suspect there is more at play than just politics and morality in the lack of uniformity. Darrowby 12:01, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
The argument I'd expect is that the fertilized egg in the petri dish has a moral right to be implanted in an appropriate uterus. This argument, however, would not carry much weight with me, particularly since IVF is normally paired with fertility drugs that cause multiple ovulation, and only the most viable eggs are kept for implantation after the waiting period. Frankly, it makes about as much sense to say that male masturbation is immoral because each sacred sperm has a moral right to enter the pregnancy sweepstakes in an appropriate vagina. Al 23:26, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
So I've been told, musically. Al 05:12, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Darrowby, I can't say I agree with your most recent edit regarding this paragraph. It now reads as though both options (fertilization and implantation) are given equal validity, which is simply not the case. Even if there is discrepancy within the medical community, which I'm sure there is, doctors, other health care workers, and scientists overwhelmingly support the notion of pregnancy beginning with implantation. This paragraph needs to reflect that. Although I appreciate your attempt at avoiding POV, you have given equal voice to two things that are not equal, and have ended up exhibiting a strong POV. rom a rin talk to her ] 22:39, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
(reset indentation) In the UK abortion is legally accepted (as opprosed to what any one person or group might otherwise wish) as the termination of a pregnancy following implantation and requires 2 doctors to consent prior to the proceedure and sign a legal document (Certificate A) and then a further certificate is signed on the day of the proceedure. Anything prior to implantation is considered contraception and outside the scope of the Abortion Act 1967 and the Offences Against the Persons Act 1861. So in UK, taking medication within the 3 days following intercourse or insertion of an IUCD within 5 days, will be before fertilistion/implantation is complete and thus counts as a contraception measure. None of this directly addresses ethical/moral/religious opinions as to what some might wish to have considered the start of pregnancy, but the de facto legal situation in the UK is currently of implantation. A few historical legal and current Medical advice links as references to this:
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help)David Ruben Talk 02:43, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
"Fertilised embryos naturally fail to implant some 40 to 60 percent of the time."
does not directly relate to:
"The claim that pregnancy begins with fertilisation and not implantation is highly contested."
It could be used in another way but it doesn't work there. Darrowby 13:29, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I had added the text "It is argued that the high loss rate of early embryos is reason to avoid defining pregnancy at conception" to try to draw the paragraphs together, but that was deleted by Al. Although actually the fertilization vs. implantation debate is likely off topic for this article - expansions to that section have been reverted twice before. I recently expanded that section in the abortifacient article, where it seems more on-topic, and have been trying to think of an appropriate way to link there. Lyrl 02:17, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
There's been some reverting between "anti-abortion" and "pro-life," with Andrew c pointing me towards WP:NCI. Trouble is, the naming conventions article is entirely about demographic groups (ethnicities, sexual orientations etc), and does not touch on whether or not these naming conventions (in particular, deference to self-identification) should apply to political movements. Most of the convention's examples are favored because they are the most inoffensive -- e.g., "gay" and "homosexual" are equally descriptive, but "gay" is favored because it is inoffensive to more gay people. "Pro-choice" and "pro-life" aren't npov by any stretch of the imagination (as there is no consensus around when life begins and the abortion-rights movement doesn't exist to protect choice in general), and the available substitutes -- "anti-abortion" and "abortion-rights" -- are accurate and inoffensive, even if the movements themselves don't favor these terms.
Does wikipedia have an established standard around the naming of political movements? If not, I'd say we should opt for the most politically neutral language available. -- Rocketfairy 13:40, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
(Reset indent) I'm not talking about the use of the term in general; if I was, I'd be doing it on Pro life, not here. As I said, the question here is about a single issue. You recommend I google pro-life and look at "their website"; I went ahead and did so. Among the first 10 links are the US Conference of Catholic Bishops (opposes euthanasia, capital punishment and the invasion of Iraq, considers these positions integral to a culture of life) and National Right to Life ("Other congressional issues" doesn't have any reference to capital punishment or war). What unites these groups? What unites the groups opposing EC?
iirc the term pro-choice appears once in the article; if we can agree on an acceptable substitute, I'd be happy to change it. "Abortion rights" isn't a good fit here, as the pro-ec lobby tends to reject the idea that EC is abortifacient. But I'd definately be open to alternatives. (For the record, I don't tend to call myself pro-choice; I consider the term arrogant and not particularly precise.)
And, yes there is debate over whether or not embryos are alive. -- Rocketfairy 02:36, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
There are references all over the internet to "studies that show pregnancy will occur in 60% of natural cycles in fertile couples." The presumption being that the other 40% of the time embryos could have been created and yet failed to implant. None reference their sources, though.
I wasn't able to find that particular study (if it exists). I did find here a pregnancy rate of 66.7% in cycles where intercourse occured on Peak Day of cervical mucus. And this study found a pregnancy rate of 71.4% (in women with prior pregnancy) to 80.9% (in nulligravidas) in the first cycle for women trained in a mucus-only fertility awareness method. So the lowest figure for failure to implant (assuming all cycles resulted in embryos being conceived) would be 19.9%.
For a high figure, I searched for IVF studies. This site claims a 40% pregnancy rate for transfer of one embryo (so a 60% failure to implant). This study claims a 23.9 to 36.4% implantation rate for IVF (so a 63.6-76.1% failure to implant).
"Fertilised embryos naturally fail to implant some 40 to 60 percent of the time" is the current statement in this article. I'm not sure what to change it to, but hope the studies I've found will give someone else ideas. Lyrl 14:52, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
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link)David Ruben Talk 00:13, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Couples of normal fertility having intercourse at random times of the cycle have a 24% per-cycle pregnancy rate (see the next-to-last sentence in this abstract). Couples using fertility awareness methods to time intercourse have the higher pregnancy rates I cited above in the first cycle of trying - if you look at the studies, you will see that pregnancy rates in the second and later cycles are much lower. If a couple is using a fertility awareness method to time intercourse, a diagnosis of subfertility can be made after six months rather than one year.
The rate of non-pregnancy in a cycle is the maximum theoretical rate of failure to implant. It is likely that some or even most of the non-pregnancies were due to conception not occuring, but there is currently no way to tell for sure which explanation is the correct one. Lyrl 03:06, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
IVF is only done on infertile couples. Failure to implant in that population is significantly higher than in couples of normal fertily. I would only support the use of IVF implantation rates as an absolute maximum.
In couples of normal fertility, studies have detected pregnancy in up to 80% of women after one cycle of trying conceive (see references above). The statement "the majority of fertilizations do not lead to a (detectable) pregnancy" is blatantly false.
Chemical pregnancies are detected chemically, with a home pregnancy test or a blood beta test. The very sensitive tests available now can detect virtually all implantations, even if miscarriage occurs after just a couple of days. Just because a pregnancy does not develop enough to be confirmed visually on an ultrasound (approx. 6th week of pregnancy, 4th week after conception, 3rd week after implantation) does not mean the pregnancy is "not detectable." Lyrl 23:07, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Here is a pregnancy rate of 66.7% in cycles where intercourse occured on Peak Day of cervical mucus. And this study found a pregnancy rate of 71.4% (in women with prior pregnancy) to 80.9% (in nulligravidas) in the first cycle for women trained in a mucus-only fertility awareness method. So the lowest figure for failure to implant (assuming all cycles resulted in embryos being conceived) would be 19.9%. Much less than 50%. Lyrl 23:51, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
If 66.7% of couples acheived a detectable pregnancy in a single cycle of intercourse near ovulation, then at most 33.3% of embryos failed to implant. The topic at hand is implantation failure, not early miscarriage, so the subsequent miscarriage rate is not relevant. But the implantation failure rate (assuming all cycles resulted in conception - which there is no way to verify) of 33.3% is. Lyrl 00:14, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
The discussion at hand is failure to implant, not early miscarriage. While emotionally the same for many people, there is a distint difference in the biology of what happened to both the embryo and the woman. It is not possible to determine if timing is a relevant factor in implantation, as poor timing is also going to reduce the number of conceptions occuring. However, studies have been done on timing of intercourse and early miscarriage [10] showing overall no effect (although a subset of women do see an effect, they are a small enough percentage of the population to not effect the overall numbers).
Also, implantation occurs 6-12 days after ovulation. Short luteal phases of less than 12 days can be a cause for RPL - but that has to do with the woman, and not with the embryo or when intercourse occured relative to ovulation. Because of the very short life of human ova (typically 6-12 hours), timing of intercourse has very little effect on timing of conception. Sperm can live in the female reproductive tract for up to five days. Lyrl 00:14, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm not happy with the latest round of changes, but I do admin that the "before" has problems, too. Therefore, I'm going to give this some though and see if I can improve on it. Al 22:35, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Another thought to consider: someday there will be the advent of artificial womb, and that will raise the question, is the artificial womb 'pregnant'?
The word origin means 'before birth.' With an artificial womb, will there be a 'birth'? Darrowby 23:59, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
The use of "pregnancy" to mean from conception (or LMP) is not just still around here or there, it's widespread, practically everywhere. In medical use with (naturally) pregnant women, I think LMP or conception is probably much more commonly used for counting than implantation, at least in U.S. Use in books is common. There is some debate by doctors. Legal definitions vary and may conflict--many U.S. states use conception or fertilization. There are some pro-life physician orgs that either define preg. from conception, or define the killing of a fertilized egg as abortion. Given all this (way more than I originally expected, as I originally assumed the implantation def. would be near-universal until I searched and found otherwise) I have to say that this article should not try to adopt or promote one view in a situation where there are multiple prominent views. (This is covered in the NPOV policy.) The reader is supposed to decide, according to the policy, we don't have to hold the reader's hand and force them to accept a position. If the facts are there, no spin is needed. I went ahead and added examples of the other def's in current use. Darrowby 13:17, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
David, thanks again for chiming in to clarify these matters. Al 03:50, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
There is no source for "early spontaneous abortions are generally not detected as pregnancies." In the U.S., half of pregnancies are unplanned. Meaning half are planned - and those women hoping to be pregnant are likely to be doing pregnancy testing, even before their period is due (some boxes of HPTs advertise "can be used 5 days before your period is due"). And a significant fraction of the unplanned pregnancy women know that they are at risk of pregnancy that cycle, and again are likely to be using pregnancy tests. Modern home pregnancy tests are capable of detecting a pregnancy just 1-2 days after implantation (3-4 days for the cheapie tests). Therefore, I am suspicious of the quoted statement. Lyrl 22:45, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Also, what definition of pregnancy is this article going by? "Of those that do implant, about 25% are miscarried in the first month of pregnancy" references a study about 6 weeks LMP. Saying "the first month of pregnancy" implies that pregnancy should be calculated from conception. Lyrl 22:49, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I hear you but that's what the citation says. If you have another, perhaps we could include it, too.
Consider that an implantation that aborts quickly won't even cause a missed period, so it doesn't count as an established pregnancy. Al 04:46, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
The fact of the matter is, the primary mode of action of EC is ovulation prevention. Therefore no egg is ever fertilized, therefore, saying EC works by preventing implantation is extremely misleading. How can it prevent the implantation of something that was never created in the first place? The implantation mechanism of EC is only hypothetical, it still remains unproven scientifically, so once again, it is extremely misleading to say EC works by doing something that isn't even proven. While I understand your concern that IF you use a specific definition of pregnancy favorable to a POV, and IF you err on the side of caution and assume EC is doing something that has only been suggested hypothetically (and has not been demonstrated to actually be occuring) then there is a chance the perhaps a women becomes "pregnant" but that pregnancy is ended before implantation can occur. However, because this situation is so conditional and precarious, it would seem folly to define EC by it. That said, I personally believe this POV can be covered in another section (which I believe it already is). In fact, even the opening section has a sentence about this POV. If this isn't sufficient, then maybe there is another way to word the opening line that is a compromise, but as it stands the current version is much more accurate than the "implantation" version.-- Andrew c 13:26, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Sperm live for up to five days, though they average only three. See? Al 00:00, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Let's all work on reaching a consensus for a new infobox to be placed on each individual birth control method's article. I've created one to start with on the Wikipedia Proposed Infoboxes page, so go check it out and get involved in the process. MamaGeek ( Talk/ Contrib) 12:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Can someone explain this? I thought the edit was helpful, but having the title of the page part of the hyperlink, and the descriptive commentary not part of the hyperlink (as with a number of other EL entries). So why was it reverted?-- Andrew c 18:08, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
There are a few quotes in Controversy over post-fertilization effects of EC that aren't cited, and I, sadly, don't have time this week to look them up. Could anyone else do that for me?
I also just changed references to "fertilized egg" to the more scientifically accurate "zygote". -- BCSWowbagger 05:10, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
This article states that "ECPs are not to be confused with chemical abortion drugs like Mifepristone (formerly RU-486) that act after implantation has occurred."
However, articles such as this one (note the NEJM excerpt near the bottom) indicate that while a large dose (~600mg) of mifepristone can be used to induce abortion, it can also be used in a lower dose (~10mg) as an emergency contraceptive in much the same way as Plan B, acting primarily by preventing ovulation. (See also this AAFP article. Seems to me that this article should acknowledge that, but I'd rather somebody more conversant with the science did that if possible. -- Calair 04:33, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
I've made a partial revert of the recent edits in this section:
"organizations don't like the fact" sounds very unprofessional and reminds me of a childs taunt. I've changed it back to "organizations have expressed concern" because I think it's better writing for an encyclopedia article.
I changed "some parts of the country" back to "many parts of the country" as refusals to provide EC has been documented all over the U.S. (see the reference I added).
I changed "might" to "may" because it's better grammer, and re-added "reasonable" to clarify that these organizations want EC to be readily available, not just technically available for women willing to jump through legal hoops. I left the syntax changes to that sentence, though, as it does seem a little easier to read now.
I removed the quotation marks around women's right to medically appropriate, effective, and legal reproductive health services. If we disagree on the wording, let's come up with an alternative. But just putting quotes to imply that women don't actually have a right to health care - is not something I'm going to agree with.
I reworded the last sentece somewhat: "regardless" sounds more professional to me than "in spite of," and having both beliefs and convictions listed looked redundent so I deleted one. And added the ref to the Planned Parenthood article at the end. Lyrl Talk Contribs 17:53, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I'd like to start by saying that I'm glad that you didn't just revert me out of hand, but that I feel some parts of your partial revert aren't appropriate. I don't care about the re-adding of convictions (though for some reason beliefs and convictions sounds better to me) and I care less about re-adding might (again my mistake), but I really am upset about the "organizations have expressed concern". I mean, even if my wording has the ring of a childish taunt it contains more truth than the other version. It seems to gloss it all over - they really are upset, and are only concerned about how many of the pills they can sell. Sorry, but that is it.
As for also I like "inspite of", because "regardless" is again trying to gloss over the fact that pharmacist is being held hostage, being forced to violate deeply held beliefs.
And "resonable" is also irksome, but I don't know any alternative yet.
Chooserr 18:06, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Someone should probably add the info that FDA plans to make emergency contraception over-the-counter for women 18 and over. Remember 17:28, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
In Section 3.2, International availability--United States, the first paragraph should:
References:
December 16, 2003 Final questions (PDF)
December 16, 2003 Transcript (PDF)
69.208.222.59 18:42, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
In Section 1.3, ECPs-Contraindications & Interactions:
Reference:
American Academy of Pediatrics Committee on Adolescence (2005). Emergency contraception. Pediatrics. Oct; 116(4):1026-35. PMID 16147972
"Safety and Contraindications of Emergency Contraception", page 1030:
69.208.222.59 18:44, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
The study reports I have actually read have been ambiguous. While the researchers always conclude with statements sounding like the study disproved any anti-implantation effect, if you actually read the study, other things jump out at me. The two main points:
Also consider that some studies have tested for anti-implantation effects by testing for hCG, a hormone that is not detectable until after implantation. And then say that because they did not detect this chemical in animals given EC, EC must not interfere with implantation. The logic here escapes me.
While it is obvious EC prevents pregnancy primarily by delaying ovulation, and the article currently seems rather balanced in presenting the possibility of a secondary anti-implantation effect, many editors seem convinced that such a secondary effect has been disproved. So I'm just trying to put some information out there to keep in mind during future edits. Lyrl Talk Contribs 23:32, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
I just reverted to restore some statistics related to the abortion rate and number of unintended pregnancies. I tend to think these are relevant to the article, since preventing unintended pregnancies is preciely the purpose behind contraception. Abortion rates speak to the number of unintended pregnancies. I can envision a student researching this topic and finding those stats to be useful... So I would keep them in. Thoughts? -- TeaDrinker 00:27, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit conflict, ha ha almost identical posts] Here is the place to discuss removing the longstanding content. As I said, these numbers are relevent because there is a dominant POV that EC reduces future abortions. Maybe this needs to be qualified in some manner, or presented in a more NPOV manner, but I clearly do not think removing the numbers is the answer. What do others think?-- Andrew c 00:28, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
(This was written before the other posts)
Rape is specifically mentioned in the stats. The controversy over whether hospital emergency rooms should offer EC to rape victims is certainly relevent to this article, and statistics on how many rapes result in pregnancy, and how many of those pregnancies could be prevented by offering EC, are certainly relevent. Arguing over the applicability of the stats (i.e. not all rape victims go to hospital emergency rooms) is one thing, completely removing them is another.
If someone uses no form of contraception, they often realize the next day that was a bad idea, and at that point can seek emergency contraception. If a condom breaks, the woman may seek emergency contraception. What percentage of women will seek such treatment varies depending on how accessible EC is. Again, I can see debate over the exact numbers, but complete deletion of the material is not something I agree with.
This material has been in this article for a long time. It is the responsibility of the person making the changes to justify them on the talk page (if they are disputed), and is customary on wikipedia to leave articles in their original format while debates are carried out. Lyrl Talk Contribs 01:09, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I just have a quick questions on the failure stats of ECs presented in the box in the right hand corner. Why is it comparing the perfect use of IUDs to the typical use of ECs? Aren't they different? How can there be a "typical" use for ECs? All you have to do is take the pill right? Shouldn't that be perfect use for ECs then? Any help answering these questions would be appreciated. Chooserr 02:22, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
I saw today's revert of Othnielj, and got to thinking. Obviously, his edit was out of line and NPOV (to say the least), but why aren't there any anti-EC advocacy groups listed in the external links? I mean, there are more than a few blatantly biased pro-EC advocates on there, so should we maybe find some balance here? -- BCSWowbagger 00:43, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
To Andrew c.: On the Emergency contraception page, I'm afraid we can't leave the sentence you restored today as is ("ECPs are not to be confused with chemical abortion methods that act after implantation has occurred."). I understand that you retained (with heavy qualification) the "some consider ECPs abortifacient" statement a few paragraphs down, but that's not good enough. To leave intact, with no qualifier at all, a sentence that states "EC is not abortion" (which this sentence, in effect, does) is POV in the extreme. I'll wait a bit for you to tone down its "absoluteness" before doing so again myself. Thanks. Cross-posting this to your Talk. JDG 19:39, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I was just reading the article and the sentence "The FDA had more pledged to rule on the application by September 1, 2005" caught my eye as it doesn't really make sense to me. The second part of the sentence isn't much better either - the present tense is used to describe something that seemed to occur last year (according to my interpretation of what the sentence is trying to say). Overall it just seems to jump from September 2005 to August 2006 without mentioning what happened in the intervening period (no pun intended).
Also I noticed the events of August 24, 2006 seem to be mentioned twice - the first time just a few sentences after the above mentioned section, and secondly at the end of the section. I don't what to touch the article myself as it seems to be a 'hot' topic so perhaps someone more familiar with this article could tidy the above and clarify what happened for the benefit of the reader. Ninja-lewis 00:39, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
The article currently says "the first two mechanisms (preventing ovulation and fertilization, respectively) fully account for all successful uses of emergency contraception." The following are quotes from the studies that supposedly support this assertation:
[EC taken on day 10 of the cycle]... the remaining (three participants) presented significant shortness of the luteal phase with notably lower luteal P4 serum concentrations... Participants in Group D [EC taken in late follicular phase] had normal cycle length but significantly lower luteal P4 serum concentrations. [17]
Ovulatory dysfunction, characterized by follicular rupture associated with absent, blunted or mistimed gonadotropin surge, occurred in 35%, 36% and 5% of standard, single dose or placebo cycles, respectively. [18] I'm reading that ovulation happened, but the hormones needed to maintain a pregnancy did not. This sounds like a possible fertilization-but-not-implantation situation to me.
This review describes studies in rats and monkeys that show no difference in pregnancy rates when taken shortly after ovulation - but does not address the luteal phase length and hormonal effects shown in humans when ECPs are taken before ovulation, but ovulation is not prevented. It also describes the study in the previous paragraph, but completely ignores the "ovulatory disfunction" found by that study.
I seriously question that these studies "prove" or "indicate" or otherwise provide strong evidence against postfertilization effects of EC. Lyrl Talk Contribs 14:49, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
After intercourse, sperm move through the cervix and arrive in the fallopian tubes beginning 1.5 minutes after ejaculation. All sperm that are going to do so have arrived in the fallopian tubes within 45 minutes after ejaculation. Sperm stick to the walls of the fallopian tubes, and are released in waves over a period of several days as they wait for the arrival of an egg. (See explanations by sperm physiologist Dr. Joanna Ellington: [19] [20])
Because sperm are already waiting in the fallopian tubes, taking EC hours after intercourse is not going to affect sperm transport. Taking bcp pills on a regular basis changes cervical mucus in a way that prevents sperm from ever getting into the uterus or fallopian tubes. Again, this does not apply to post-coital use of EC, because the sperm are already in the fallopian tubes - any changes it causes in cervical mucus is closing the barn door after the horse got out, so to speak.
The theory about EC changing the tubal transport of ova/embryos would actually be a postfertilization effect - embryos don't try to implant in the uterus until 6-12 days after fertilization. By increasing the speed at which embryos travel through the tubes, hormonal contraceptives might cause them to arrive in the uterus too soon, when they aren't ready to implant, and they just fall out of the woman. Lyrl Talk Contribs 14:47, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Since the U.S. government is considered a very reliable source, I will post this link to the FDA's Q&A. It is unclear on the mechanism, but it is very clear on what EC does: inhibits ovulation, and inhibits fertilization. Unless there are a whole bunch of darned good studies that have a contrary conclusion, the article must retain the statement of this mechanism. It seems to me, Lyrl, that you are on the verge of violating WP:OR in the way in which you are ignoring conclusions and drawing new ones yourself, although I hear your complaint about article bias and am sympathetic. I will re-add the reference to the fertilization-prevention mechanism (without further details about cervical mucus, etc., since I have been unable to substantiate that) at my next opportunity and await further comment. -- BCSWowbagger 23:16, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
I think something is messed up with the references. There are only 43 unique references, but when the page is rendered on my screen, it lists 84, and most of them are repeats. Some references are cited multiple times (they have superscript letters preceding them), yet most of the intrapage links are broken. I tried to fix this problem, but something is still wrong. Things look fine in the preview, so I am thinking it may be a coding or rendering problem that I can't fix. Is anyone else experiencing strange numbering things (such as the very first footnote being numbered 43?) -- Andrew c 20:21, 28 August 2006 (UTC)