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Perhaps the article should mention how Presley became famous as a white singer who stole black music. Quoted references can be found from Marlon Brando, Chuck D, Eminem, etc. ... added at 18:49, 4 April 2006 by 195.93.21.67 ( contributions)
Well it's quite obvious in this day and age that Elvis stole popular tunes from black artists from as far back as the 20s and 30s and "covered" them, but of course you have to take into consideration the fact that if it were not for Elvis singing them, they may have never became even minutely as popular as they are now, because of the fact they were essentially barred from white America until the Civil Rights movement, and by then those tunes had become obscure, outside of Elvis' version(s) of them. -Buddhist- 01:36, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Should Louis Armstrong's Wiki page characterize him as a black singer who stole white music, because his popular recordings included "All of Me," "I Got Rhythm," "After You've Gone," "Hello Dolly," "On the Sunny Side of the Street," and "Stardust"? What about when Armstrong covered "Alexander's Ragtime Band"-- was he then a black artist stealing from a white artist who'd stolen from a black artist? Is this popular music, or salugi?
Since Presley was indeed a bridge between black-dominated music and white-dominated music, it's worth referencing Sam Phillips' alleged prediction "if I could find a white boy with the Negro sound, I'd make a million dollars." Calling him a thief is more problematic, and something less than accurate. ... added at 03:32, 5 April 2006 by 64.131.196.46 ( contributions)
Marlon says otherwise. ... added at 17:00, 5 April 2006 by 195.93.21.67 ( contributions)
Do you have any citations for these wild claims or are you just going to continue to post annonymously? Presley fused blues music with country, roackabilly, gospel and basically created rock & roll. It's simply inaccuarate to say that he "stole" black music. Lochdale ... added at 23:49, 16 April 2006 by 24.148.51.62 ( contributions)
"It seems to me hilarious that our government put the face of Elvis Presley on a postage stamp after he died from an overdose of drugs. His fans don't mention that because they don't want to give up their myths. They ignore the fact that he was a drug addict and claim he invented rock 'n' roll when in fact he took it from black culture; they had been singing that way for years before he came along, copied them and became a star." - Marlon Brando "Elvis was a hero to most, but he never meant shit to me you see. A straight up racist that sucker was, simple and plain. Mother fuck him and John Wayne." - Chuck D "Though I'm not the first king of controversy I am the worst thing since Elvis Presley to do Black Music so selfishly and use it to get myself wealthy. Hey, there's a concept that works." - Eminem ... added at 16:42, 17 April 2006 by 195.93.21.67 ( contributions)
So we have an unsupported quote from Marlon Brando (who was not a musician), a lyric from a song by Public Enemy who were big on shock value and who came around long after Elvis had died and another lyric from Eminem....wow, I'm convinced. This is an encyclopedia, not a forum for nonsensical rantings. Lochdale ... added at 20:30, 17 April 2006 by 63.85.72.242 ( contributions)
Some IP has plonked in a new section, "Controversy", a paragraph that accuses Presley of just about everything but mainlining heroin and screwing his pooch. (I'm particularly amused by the way his momma-in-law accused him of screwing his mother and Nick Adams. Presumably this was on separate occasions, but was it a threesome with raunchy Dee each time, was Dee hiding under the bed, or how else does she know?)
But let's put aside all of that for a moment and concentrate on this bit: Many artists, including Chuck D, Eminem and Marlon Brando have accused Presley of stealing black music. A recent poll indicated that 90% of young black people in America hate Elvis.
I'm surprised to hear that 90% of young people in America (the US?) of any pigmentation have even heard of this old guy who died before they were born: it doesn't ring true. (If he were alive, he'd be even older than Dubya!)
Chuck D, Eminem and Brando: are/were they IP attorneys? Whatever their level of expertise in these matters: (1) Are they accusing Presley, his agent, his employer, or some combination of not paying royalties? (2) Are they accusing him/them of forcing black artists into accepting unfairly low royalties? Or (3) are they just noting the fact -- a sadly obvious one -- that Presley got rich (and people got richer off him) whereas black artists didn't and indeed often died neglected and poor? I'm willing to believe (1) or (2) but I (and readers) want proof. As for (3), I believe it already (Wynonie Harris, etc etc) -- but why not write this up in some articulate way? And if it's (3), you'll have to say how he stole black music: sure, "Hound Dog" and some others were/are black, but most of Presley's money-spinners sound utterly white to me (and that's not intended as a compliment).
My uneducated guess is that during the early part of his career Presley benefited from, and black artists suffered from, a racism that was pervasive in the entertainment industry and society as a whole; and during the later part he was pretty much in a different world. -- Hoary 13:20, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Half-assed cultural theorists should recognize that being influenced by an artist does not mean you're stealing their music. They should also realize that James Brown(you know, the Godfather of Funk) had no beef with that "soulbrother" Elvis. Thank you. This message brought to you by Urthogie at 14:49, 26 April 2006 (UTC). |
In this edit, Urthogie removed what he or she terms a "bullshit hoax" but which in fact is the entire "Controversy" section. Now, I happen to agree that much of this section looks like bullshit, but the removal still looks odd: after all, one or two of the issues it raises seem more important than all the drivel that comes earlier in the article about Presley's "performance" with this or that hottie. My ass is complete, "cultural theory" bores me, and I realize that being influenced isn't stealing, but I also realize that Elvis and the "Colonel" got rich and that Roy Brown, Wynonie Harris and others did not. So I'd like a lucid, informed explanation of what Presley (or his writers) did to black music and its creators. -- Hoary 15:47, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
This is all very close to being original research. -- ElKevbo 20:55, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
The notion that he "stole" black music is also very simplistic and ignores the profound influence of country, gospel and religion had on Presley. He was, of course, influenced by black musicians. That said, there really wasn't anyone like him, black or white, who fused various strands of music together with such force. Further, he was unique in how he moved on stage and his entire act. His movements etc. bear closer resemblance to white babtist ministers than black blues musicians. I don't believe that there is any real controversy over this issue as most reputable writers do not accuse him of stealing anything. Lochdale
Oh yes they do. Most black teenagers in America hate Presley because he was an evil racist who stole black music.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.93.21.65 ( talk • contribs) .
I cut the 'Criticism and controversy section'. Here's why:
Deltabeignet 04:57, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Its been cut a number of times for these same reasons, but unfortunately someone on an AOL IP keeps putting it back.-- Count Chocula 05:14, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm not familiar with the sources the anonymous editor may have used, but I also did some research which may help to clarify the dispute. On page 17 of his book, The Golden Age Is in Us: Journeys and Encounters, 1987-1994, reputed author Alexander Cockburn says,
What's more important, here is Michael T. Bertrand, Race, Rock, and Elvis (University of Illinois Press, 2000):
It was claimed that Presley had either made his racist comment in Boston or on Edward R. Murrow's Person to Person. (p.221) The author adds on p.222:
However, Bertrand also asserts that the racial aspersion was fabricated and
The author further says that "the offending statement passed into fact."
In addition, Bertrand cites Robert Kaiser who
However, in his peer-reviewed study, Bertrand also documents black enthusiasm for Elvis and cites the racially mixed audiences that flocked to the new music at a time when adults expected separate performances for black and white audiences. But the quotes I have given above clearly show that the Controversy section should not be deleted. Onefortyone 20:19, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Yep. Elvis was a far right nutcase. ... comment added at 04:38, 7 May 2006 by 195.93.21.65
User:Northmeister has repeatedly deleted the following paragraphs from the article:
I am of the opinon that the critical remarks in this section provide a well-balanced view of what black people were thinking about Elvis's alleged racism. This is part of the singer's and his audiences' history. Therefore, these critical remarks should not be deleted. Onefortyone 00:22, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | → | Archive 15 |
This is an Archive. Do not edit it. Use the main article talk page. Thank you.
Perhaps the article should mention how Presley became famous as a white singer who stole black music. Quoted references can be found from Marlon Brando, Chuck D, Eminem, etc. ... added at 18:49, 4 April 2006 by 195.93.21.67 ( contributions)
Well it's quite obvious in this day and age that Elvis stole popular tunes from black artists from as far back as the 20s and 30s and "covered" them, but of course you have to take into consideration the fact that if it were not for Elvis singing them, they may have never became even minutely as popular as they are now, because of the fact they were essentially barred from white America until the Civil Rights movement, and by then those tunes had become obscure, outside of Elvis' version(s) of them. -Buddhist- 01:36, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Should Louis Armstrong's Wiki page characterize him as a black singer who stole white music, because his popular recordings included "All of Me," "I Got Rhythm," "After You've Gone," "Hello Dolly," "On the Sunny Side of the Street," and "Stardust"? What about when Armstrong covered "Alexander's Ragtime Band"-- was he then a black artist stealing from a white artist who'd stolen from a black artist? Is this popular music, or salugi?
Since Presley was indeed a bridge between black-dominated music and white-dominated music, it's worth referencing Sam Phillips' alleged prediction "if I could find a white boy with the Negro sound, I'd make a million dollars." Calling him a thief is more problematic, and something less than accurate. ... added at 03:32, 5 April 2006 by 64.131.196.46 ( contributions)
Marlon says otherwise. ... added at 17:00, 5 April 2006 by 195.93.21.67 ( contributions)
Do you have any citations for these wild claims or are you just going to continue to post annonymously? Presley fused blues music with country, roackabilly, gospel and basically created rock & roll. It's simply inaccuarate to say that he "stole" black music. Lochdale ... added at 23:49, 16 April 2006 by 24.148.51.62 ( contributions)
"It seems to me hilarious that our government put the face of Elvis Presley on a postage stamp after he died from an overdose of drugs. His fans don't mention that because they don't want to give up their myths. They ignore the fact that he was a drug addict and claim he invented rock 'n' roll when in fact he took it from black culture; they had been singing that way for years before he came along, copied them and became a star." - Marlon Brando "Elvis was a hero to most, but he never meant shit to me you see. A straight up racist that sucker was, simple and plain. Mother fuck him and John Wayne." - Chuck D "Though I'm not the first king of controversy I am the worst thing since Elvis Presley to do Black Music so selfishly and use it to get myself wealthy. Hey, there's a concept that works." - Eminem ... added at 16:42, 17 April 2006 by 195.93.21.67 ( contributions)
So we have an unsupported quote from Marlon Brando (who was not a musician), a lyric from a song by Public Enemy who were big on shock value and who came around long after Elvis had died and another lyric from Eminem....wow, I'm convinced. This is an encyclopedia, not a forum for nonsensical rantings. Lochdale ... added at 20:30, 17 April 2006 by 63.85.72.242 ( contributions)
Some IP has plonked in a new section, "Controversy", a paragraph that accuses Presley of just about everything but mainlining heroin and screwing his pooch. (I'm particularly amused by the way his momma-in-law accused him of screwing his mother and Nick Adams. Presumably this was on separate occasions, but was it a threesome with raunchy Dee each time, was Dee hiding under the bed, or how else does she know?)
But let's put aside all of that for a moment and concentrate on this bit: Many artists, including Chuck D, Eminem and Marlon Brando have accused Presley of stealing black music. A recent poll indicated that 90% of young black people in America hate Elvis.
I'm surprised to hear that 90% of young people in America (the US?) of any pigmentation have even heard of this old guy who died before they were born: it doesn't ring true. (If he were alive, he'd be even older than Dubya!)
Chuck D, Eminem and Brando: are/were they IP attorneys? Whatever their level of expertise in these matters: (1) Are they accusing Presley, his agent, his employer, or some combination of not paying royalties? (2) Are they accusing him/them of forcing black artists into accepting unfairly low royalties? Or (3) are they just noting the fact -- a sadly obvious one -- that Presley got rich (and people got richer off him) whereas black artists didn't and indeed often died neglected and poor? I'm willing to believe (1) or (2) but I (and readers) want proof. As for (3), I believe it already (Wynonie Harris, etc etc) -- but why not write this up in some articulate way? And if it's (3), you'll have to say how he stole black music: sure, "Hound Dog" and some others were/are black, but most of Presley's money-spinners sound utterly white to me (and that's not intended as a compliment).
My uneducated guess is that during the early part of his career Presley benefited from, and black artists suffered from, a racism that was pervasive in the entertainment industry and society as a whole; and during the later part he was pretty much in a different world. -- Hoary 13:20, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Half-assed cultural theorists should recognize that being influenced by an artist does not mean you're stealing their music. They should also realize that James Brown(you know, the Godfather of Funk) had no beef with that "soulbrother" Elvis. Thank you. This message brought to you by Urthogie at 14:49, 26 April 2006 (UTC). |
In this edit, Urthogie removed what he or she terms a "bullshit hoax" but which in fact is the entire "Controversy" section. Now, I happen to agree that much of this section looks like bullshit, but the removal still looks odd: after all, one or two of the issues it raises seem more important than all the drivel that comes earlier in the article about Presley's "performance" with this or that hottie. My ass is complete, "cultural theory" bores me, and I realize that being influenced isn't stealing, but I also realize that Elvis and the "Colonel" got rich and that Roy Brown, Wynonie Harris and others did not. So I'd like a lucid, informed explanation of what Presley (or his writers) did to black music and its creators. -- Hoary 15:47, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
This is all very close to being original research. -- ElKevbo 20:55, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
The notion that he "stole" black music is also very simplistic and ignores the profound influence of country, gospel and religion had on Presley. He was, of course, influenced by black musicians. That said, there really wasn't anyone like him, black or white, who fused various strands of music together with such force. Further, he was unique in how he moved on stage and his entire act. His movements etc. bear closer resemblance to white babtist ministers than black blues musicians. I don't believe that there is any real controversy over this issue as most reputable writers do not accuse him of stealing anything. Lochdale
Oh yes they do. Most black teenagers in America hate Presley because he was an evil racist who stole black music.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.93.21.65 ( talk • contribs) .
I cut the 'Criticism and controversy section'. Here's why:
Deltabeignet 04:57, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Its been cut a number of times for these same reasons, but unfortunately someone on an AOL IP keeps putting it back.-- Count Chocula 05:14, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm not familiar with the sources the anonymous editor may have used, but I also did some research which may help to clarify the dispute. On page 17 of his book, The Golden Age Is in Us: Journeys and Encounters, 1987-1994, reputed author Alexander Cockburn says,
What's more important, here is Michael T. Bertrand, Race, Rock, and Elvis (University of Illinois Press, 2000):
It was claimed that Presley had either made his racist comment in Boston or on Edward R. Murrow's Person to Person. (p.221) The author adds on p.222:
However, Bertrand also asserts that the racial aspersion was fabricated and
The author further says that "the offending statement passed into fact."
In addition, Bertrand cites Robert Kaiser who
However, in his peer-reviewed study, Bertrand also documents black enthusiasm for Elvis and cites the racially mixed audiences that flocked to the new music at a time when adults expected separate performances for black and white audiences. But the quotes I have given above clearly show that the Controversy section should not be deleted. Onefortyone 20:19, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Yep. Elvis was a far right nutcase. ... comment added at 04:38, 7 May 2006 by 195.93.21.65
User:Northmeister has repeatedly deleted the following paragraphs from the article:
I am of the opinon that the critical remarks in this section provide a well-balanced view of what black people were thinking about Elvis's alleged racism. This is part of the singer's and his audiences' history. Therefore, these critical remarks should not be deleted. Onefortyone 00:22, 16 June 2006 (UTC)