This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
For anyone wishing to update this page, I have a list of potential factoids on my userpage, at: User:Elonka#Stuff which could potentially be added to the official page at some point. Feel free to pick and choose. Elonka 11:29, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Hipocrite, thanks for taking on the project! Please check this page for sources that can be listed: http://www.elonka.com/elonkanews.html . Specifically: Articles in St. Louis Post Dispatch, Science magazine, Riverfront Times, Binary Revolution Radio episodes, KFTK Newsradio, Wired News, Woman's World magazine, GIGNews, Cleveland Plain Dealer, Cleveland Free Times, CNN, UK The Guardian, Wall Street Journal, IGDA website, St. Louis Business Journal, and Inc. Magazine. Most of them can also be found with pretty simple Google searches, but let me know if you'd like exact links. And if you see anything else at User:Elonka which you think would be relevant for the official article, but can't find a reference, let me know and I'll see what I can dig up to help. Elonka 16:47, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Elonka 16:59, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Because this edit was basically a reversion to the unverified version that was cleaned up about a month ago, instead of just reverting, I've put fact tags all over the article, and believe that all of the information that I mentioned cannot be verified except by Dunin herself. The standard for Wikipedia is VERIFIABILITY, not TRUTH. Hipocrite - «Talk» 15:11, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
This edit was actually a retooling of the "cleaned up" version so that it would come into line with the Template:Biography page. A list of bullet-points an encyclopedic article does not make. The bullet points were changed into complete sentences and strung together into paragraphs. A few details were added to flesh it out. These details came from reliable sources which are acceptable according to the WP:V. (Points not taken from news articles in respected publications were taken from "self-published sources for use in an article about themselves" which according to the WP:V, is okay.)
Since then, several people found typos and fixed links, which were good edits. The multitude of fact tags and wholesale rollbacks were removed because they made the article unreadable. I'm happy to add back in a few citations if they're necessary, but the CIA information is clearly verifiable. - Subversified 00:30, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Listing 5 generations of relatives seems like a stretch. Notable father, certainly, but great great grand-uncle? AnonEMouse (squeak) 17:18, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
I happened across this just because I saw her contributions as a Wikipedian. Dunin seems notable enough, but the tone of this article is a bit too autobiographical, sounding like something one might write on a profile of a blog or a social-network site. For example, some of the stuff about "dad took her to work", while probably true, is more like the conversation you would have at a party than like an encyclopedia entry. I see User:Elonka has contributed to the article, which may be the reason for the tone (I haven't traced where each wording came from). LotLE× talk 17:22, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
There is too much subjective data in this artice, as well as data that is presented as fact without a proper source citation. Where are the numbers that prove the site was more visited than the CIA's site? etc. Extreme with the use of distant relatives; some questionable. Again, citations?
We also agree that there are way too many subjective claims made. It reads more like an advertisement for this lady (Elonka Dunin), instead of a page out of an Encyclopedia.
September 27, 2006 User:
Johnyajohn
I tried to make it more like an entry in an encyclopaedia, not like her personal online resume. For example, stuff like who organized her trip to antarctica is totally unnecessary. Listing every plane she has worked on is also not necessary. "Various aircraft" is enough there. I wouldn't call her a cryptogrpher, maybe just "amateur cryptographer". There were too many details about her website, much more than you should find in an encyclopaedia. It was too much like a resume, with "she did this, she also did that", listing every little thing. Just hit the major stuff and eliminate the other stuff, and it'll be a better article. Checking the history, I see that she has edited the article herself in the past, isn't this against some unwritten rule? - conflict of interest or something. Bitethesilverbullet 15:19, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Elonka is not a cryptographer and it is wholly unaccurate to say that she is. Cryptographers are almost always professor types with PhDs who have studied the subject for years. They need to understand a wide variety of topics including (but not limited to): computer science, mathematics, number theory, group theory, computer architecture, the P!=NP question... As far as I know, Elonka has not studied these topics - in fact I do not see anywhere that says that she studied these at above the undergraduate level. If you can get a reputable cryptographer to say "yes she's one of us" or you can show me a paper that she has written for a peer-reviewed crypto journal (ACM or similar) I will gladly eat my hat. Her claims to fame: the phreaknic code (which was in my opinion just a brain-teaser) and her Kryptos web page and the mammoth book. That's about it - nothing that shows she is a legit cryptographer. She may be big in the pop culture pseudo-cryptography world, but in the hardcore crypto world, she's nobody. You know, there's more to cryptography than encrypting/decrypting quotations. I was generous when I called her an amateur cryptographer, I personally do not think she deserves to be called any type of cryptographer. Bitethesilverbullet 17:45, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
As I understand it, Elonka has not only published a book on the subject, but been called to the CIA to consult on cyptography, making her a professional cryptographer (ie one that gets paid to do cryptography). As I understand it, one's academic credentials are irrelevant in determining whether one is a member of a profession; most emerging fields rely mostly on those trained in other fields (eg computer science) coming to a new field. For example, no early cognitive psychologists were trained in the field. They were philosophers, computer scientists and so on. If we want to restrict those who can enter a field to those who have been in the academy, we'd be in sore trouble indeed! 68.190.90.190 05:27, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Come on, let's not be silly here: "cryptographer" is fine. If someone is known because of their work in cryptography, then we can call them a "cryptographer", just as we would call someone a "photographer" if they were known for taking photographs, or a "musician" if they were known for making music, and so on. The issue of whether someone is good or important at what they do is not relevant to the question of what name we call them when they partake in that activity. There's hundreds of people in Category:Musicians that have little or no musical talent, but that is irrelevant to whether or not we call them a "musician". — Matt Crypto 19:55, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
There have been three or four recent anonymous AfD taggings of this entry in the last week. They all ignore the recent unsuccessful vote (23/7/2006 see top of this discussion) for deletion. Rather than attempt to improve the article, a sort of underhanded vandalism is taking place based on what appears to be purely personal reasons. I agree that this article (and scads of others in wikipedia) can always be improved and that NPOV is desirable, but this isn't the approach that appears to be taken.
I have to explicitly compliment Johnyajohn as an example of someone who actually, and non-anonymously, engages in constructive criticism of the article. I would encourage the anonymous taggers (apparently from the University of Virginia according to one of the IP addresses - 128.143.230.221) to come out and engage without personal malice.
And, no, I am not a sockpuppet. Explicitly me for some time now, Quartermaster 12:54, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
While this is clearly a bright and unusual woman, the entire tenor of this template is promotional. Promoting what I cannot glean, but there is clearly an advertisement-like patina to this whole entry. While this contributor would appear to be a tireless editor of Wiki, this does not entitle a bio dwarfing Albert Schweizer's. It is anathema to the spirit of Wikipedia for posters to vote on or protect the content of firends - however controversial or prosaic. I would urge this entry to be deleted. Elonka Dunin's bio would fit quite well on the user pages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Harangus ( talk • contribs)
This article has obviously been targeted by vandals and they have attempted to put it through numerous dubious AFDs, even though one was recently carried out. I suggest that these should be treated just like any other vandals and vandalism warnings/further action should be taken when needed.
Just for the record, I have worked on articles with Elonka but all those questioning notability should in my look no further to the references section. I do agree that the article may need some tweaking. Englishrose 22:48, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
So far, I've had to revert two edits (and another is sitting around) that add Elonka's Wikipedia username to the article. I'm almost positive that we're not supposed to have those in the article proper (which is the rationale for the Notable Wikipedian talk page banner). However, I don't know where that rule is. Can anyone back me up? EVula 18:49, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
I removed some unsourced claims.-- Tom 14:27, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I learned about Elonka because of the DaVinci code, so references to Kryptos are warranted and should stay. Julia 21:51, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Plenty of people have become quite famous for trying to something and failing, from Squeaky Fromme to Robert Falcon Scott. Failure is irrelveant, merely notice is; she has been noticed for this, so we should write about it. That is not to say that Dunin has failed - from what I read, most references consider her quite successful. -- AnonEMouse (squeak) 22:15, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the fact that Elonka speaks more than one language, as this is so common it fails notinbility to be included in an article, and the fact is not critical to Dunin or her work.... it is therefore irrelevant.
Also removed was the mention that Dunin has been on a trip to Antartica. From the link to her personal website, she states why she made the trip:
Well, the quick answer is, "I hadn't been there yet!" <grin> The longer answer is that I'd been all the way around the world, and been to every other continent *but* Antarctica, so I knew that I was going to have to go there someday, just for completeness' sake. Also, this particular expedition was appealing to me because it was being sponsored by the Planetary Society, and I knew there would be some interesting co-travelers... Plus I liked that the invitation came from Dr. Louis Friedman, the Society's Executive Director, who was also going on this trip, and I wanted to meet him. Plus I just needed a vacation that would get my mind off work for awhile, and Antarctica fit the bill. Plus it was a good price for this particular trip, about $7,000 including airfare from St. Louis. Plus I figured I'd better go now, in 1999, before everything breaks in Y2K!"
I fail to see therefore why this trip is relevant to the article. I can understand if this is a vanity section written by Elonka or one of her friends, but not otherwise. If this was not Wikipedia but another encylopedia, would this detail be included about Elonka...? The answer surely would have to be 'No'....which is why it also has no place here. If the author wishes to boast about how exotic her holidays are, then there are blogs and personal webpages to impart this information; not in a dispasionate encyclopedia article. She is apparently notable for her work in the field of Cryptography, as opposed to being notable for the places she decides it would be interesting to holiday... This mention is therefore irrelevant. -- •CHILLDOUBT• 12:40, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I think that any person who has accomplished note worthy achievements in their lives that warrant having their own Wiki listing says a great deal about them and in that, I think that readers would take great interest in finding out all they can about a person, so the fact she speaks many languages, has traveled extensively may be of great interest to those reading to learn more about her. I think the material should stay. Julia 21:46, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
This whole section should be nuked IMHO as orginal research. We have a link already to her folks.-- Tom 16:26, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Agreed •CHILLDOUBT• 07:55, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I fail to see what 'depth' a mention of Elonka's holidaying gives to a dispasionate encyclopedia article! That detail is more suitable for a 'my space' page or a personal webpage. I reiterate, if this was not wikipedia, but another encylopedia written without Elonka's input, would the vacation detail be included? The answer would certainly be 'no'.. which is exactly the reason it also has no place here. In addition If the relatives section of the article 'can be sourced appropriately' as you state, then please source this and add to the article. All information should be verifiable. If it is notible enough to be included, it should be notable enough to be validated from an independent reliable source.
Also, in reply to AnonEmouse, Jimbo's intervention was not just in reply to someone who used personal interviews to write the article as you have stated; both the author and Jimbo specifically refer also to a family tree being used as part of the research of the article. Jimbo included the family tree as not being a reliable source for the article. The family tree mentioned there is exactly the one being disputed here... •CHILLDOUBT• 08:10, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
You are showing up far too often to defend the indefensible with regard to Elonka Dunin. Her tendentious editing has been well-chronicled. The bot-like editing habits have also been curious, but now we see Elonka shamelessly tout that she is amongst the top 200 wikipedians on the basis of rote edits. Thus, this mindless tagging activity was undertaken to drive edits up on the 'hit parade'. The self-references in "her" articles are unacceptable, as is the vanity and showcasing of friends and relatives. As a new admin, you should be aware of these issues and work with her to curtail and fix them, not defend the indefensible. 24.249.148.22 21:59, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
I fail to see how this section is in any way worthy of inclusion in an encylopedic article. It could perhaps be mentioned in a one-liner somewhere throughout, or mentioned in an article on Dunn, if there is one. However, an entire section on this rather unremarkable event is complete overkill and adds to the biographical tone of the article. Icemuon 21:46, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
And, for the record, NO, this is not a personal attack, just an observation on the total pointlessness of this entry...
Maybe we should all put our CV's on Wikipedia, but I thought that Wiki was attempting to become a credible medium of encyclopeadic information on the Internet, not for self-publicity seeking ego merchants to paste up their life story and that of their woefully un-spectacular personal and family histories.
This entire entry is no more suitable for a page than my life's contribution to the study of Ethiopian-styles of ballroom dancing. It belongs on a Wiki personal page and no more.
Considering that my family tree can be traced to before the Norman invasion of England and I hold an hereditary title (which was once owned by Elizabeth I and Francis Bacon) maybe I could start posting up my little life story and my g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-uncles and g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-grand-daddies and which castles they built, etc. (yawn) But there again, I am not a vain, egotistical numpty who wants to use Wikipedia as an online CV service - I do wonder if the crypto-consultancy industry needs a few heads at the moment... Hmmmmmmmmmm.
(I only mention dear old Lizzie the First and Nick Bacon as they have actually been heard of by most people)... not becuase I wish to pump up my ego. In fact, the title was grabbed by Liz after the Reformation, so it wasn't all that good news for us, after all... and certainly not something to be gloating about.
There are loads of unsubstantiated claims in this article, including stats about website hits compared to the CIA... oh yeah, come off it!! :-D
I think the German Wikipedians have got it about right... does not warrant inclusion.
Meanwhile, I'll carry on editing the 2-3 topics that I do know about (Templar History, aviation, and erm... maybe a bit of medieval history too) and I won't try to be all things to all people in offering my omnipotent edits on a variety of subjects that I only know a very little, unlike some of the people on here. Maybe it's just an attempt to get edit counts ever higher to make oneself look incredibly intelligent and important. And then get supported by all our colleagues from work and our own self-created crypto-society members, etc. to come to our defence when we need them.
P.S. By the way, my mother's Scottish line is distantly related to Alan Bean, your esteemed astronaut who was the fourth man on the moon, but I don't hold it against him. A good chap. :-)
Now, just where did I put that can of anti-ego spray? Lord Knowle 21:26, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Dear Lord Knowle - you must see the discussion of similar with Elonka in Tom Stone a magician. this is not a serious publication so friends who are the editors all help to make a big profile here. Jan Antwerpmagic2 10:10, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
I have just see Lord Knowle is a 'vandal'. I suppose this is significant from what I have been saying. Jan Antwerpmagic2 10:16, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
I've noticed that the wiki page about the OLHP was taken out... and I figured that noone would be better to add it again than you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.111.56.41 ( talk • contribs) 11:43, 14 June 2007
The three sections on the Elonka Dunin page (biography -> online games -> cryptography) are sequential in time. It might make better sense to boil down the three sections into one "my life" section, and create another "my life's work" section (like Kryptos and Cyrillic Projector and so on.) Mindraker 21:56, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone know of either a recording in which Elonka says her own name (e.g., by way of self-introduction), or else a written source in which Elonka herself describes how her name should be pronounced? I can find plenty of audio/video recordings (on her website) in which other people say her name, and virtually all of them say /ɪˈlɔŋkə 'dʌnɨn/, but one or two recordings have /iˈlɔŋkə 'dʌnɨn/ (slightly different initial vowel). These two pronunciations would, of course, likely be indistinguishable to many (possibly most, but probably not all) American English speakers. I went to school with Elonka a long time ago, but I can't remember for sure which of these two pronunciations she herself used (or if she used both indiscriminately) — and, of course, even if I did remember, that would clearly be OR and not usable here. Richwales ( talk) 06:35, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Hi all! There is a lot of assertions in this article that either have no citations, are not directly verifiable through the citations given, or are problematically sourced to primary source documents. Additionally, there is an issue of certain wording that is unspecific or dealing with general attribution. There are a lot of "facts" asserted in this article that I do not find sourced. Please help. ScienceApologist ( talk) 08:19, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Additionally, I also think there is an issue of this website reading like a "fansite". There seems to be obsessive focusing on the details of this person's life which are far from encyclopedic. As far as I can tell, she is famous for one particular event and the rest of her life (studying astronomy for a year in California?) is not likely encyclopedic. Additionally, the reliance on self-published primary sources (elonka.com?) is troubling, to say the least. ScienceApologist ( talk) 08:23, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Commenting on the two issues at hand: I do not see the article being read as a "fan site" per se. Given that the article is about Elonka, it would be fair to assume that her actions and her involvements would be fair game for inclusion, and I am not seeing that she was made notable for one event. She was on the team that cracked the Cyrillic Projector cipher and then published a book regarding that. She has also become a speaker for events relating to that. She was also involved with Cyberstrike and IGDA, although the latter needs citing. We've got articles on people for far less notable and singular events.
As for the self-references, I do agree with SA in that self-published references should be removed and replaced with third-party articles and citations. seicer | talk | contribs 16:43, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Honestly, the article can use some work but... I think the folks who are currently or regularly in a dispute with Elonka should probably steer clear of the article about her, to avoid the appearance of editing with an agenda or in the pursuit of a vendetta. Avruch T 17:04, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
The article doesn't read like a proper fan site, but it does have some tacky CV elements, and some minor aspects (like books in which she is acknowledged) were hyped up. So an "advert" tag would have been more appropriate (do we have a "reads like a CV tag"?). But I don't care much about tagging, as about fixing the article. Instead of endless COI comments here (SA has effectively stopped editing on it), I invite you address the issues in the article. Warring over the tags would be really silly. VG ☎ 23:43, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
I propose we merge this article to kryptos per WP:ONEEVENT considerations. Any objections? ScienceApologist ( talk) 10:52, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Can we explain exactly what makes this person notable? Let me start a list:
So, let me put it to the field, is there anything else which makes this person notable?
ScienceApologist ( talk) 20:05, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Kryptos may be good enough to stand as a separate article, but I think we should think about the value of the content forking policies. If we consolidate all the relevant articles first then we can think about which articles deserve to be spun off and which subjects should simply be integrated into the main article. ScienceApologist ( talk) 01:34, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
The last sentence in the lead is not sourced properly. The only thing we can verify from that source is that the subject of the article was an Online Games SIG steering committee member. ScienceApologist ( talk) 20:27, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Additionally, the sources for her breaking the PhreakNIC ciphers are all to interviews where she explains that she did it. Independent verification would go a long way to establishing this in actuality. ScienceApologist ( talk) 20:56, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Can anyone offer a reason for listing them? I don't see any indication of importance. They also makes her bio read like stuffed resume (see WP:RESUME). It's not clear if she authored them or was just an editor (as in journal editor, not Wikipedia editor). VG ☎ 21:13, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
SA added a citation needed tag to the lead after the sentence that says she was editor in chief. This can be easily verified from the 2004 IGDA white paper; I'll remove the citation needed tag. Feel free to link somehow to the paper if you think it's necessary. VG ☎ 15:54, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Listing those two books is a bit ridiculous. In what other biographies do we do this? VG ☎ 21:16, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
It did say where her "contributions are acknowledged" - does that mean she was a significant (credited) contributor, or just that she was mentioned in the acknowledgment as someone with a contribution to the field? Avruch T 22:50, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Looks to me like the consensus here is to get rid of this section. Am I reading that right? ScienceApologist ( talk) 06:50, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
This was left in in Crypto project talk page. I'm curious, what exactly makes this person a cryptographer? I haven't been able to find any cryptography related publications. It sounds like she's interested in puzzles and not modern cryptography. Does she have any refereed articles related to cryptography? Skippydo ( talk) 03:23, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
If we grant that the subject is notable enough for an article, and the jury is still out on this, I have a hard time understanding what relevance there is for listing her high school education, aborted college careers, airforce work, and interest in the internet. I just do not think this is encyclopedic. Moreover, it may be impossible to source to third parties. Therefore, I tagged the section.
ScienceApologist ( talk) 06:49, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
The birthdate issue is one that has come up from time to time at WP:BLP. The general consensus, as I remember it, unless there are third-party references to birthdates, it is likely that the birthdate is not important enough for inclusion. In general, birthdates should only be given if they are notable for some reason or if the person is famous enough that their birthdate might be encyclopedic (and if that is the case, there will be third party references to it). I'm fairly sure that we are not likely to find third-party sources for the birthdate, so I recommend removing it. ScienceApologist ( talk) 02:32, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
“ | Amateur cryptographers Mike Bales, a computer programmer in Michigan and Frank Corr, a computer programmer in North Carolina, have decrypted an unusual code. The "Cyrillic Projector" is just one of a number of codes created by artist James Sanborn. When Sanborn enthusiasts posted transcripts of the Cyrillic Projector's text on the Web, Bales and Corr decrypted it. By analyzing the statistical characteristics of the encrypted text, they independently discovered that the code was a variant of a well-known encryption scheme known as a Vignère cipher. But the resulting plaintext was Russian — a language neither code-breaker knew. By mid-September, game designer and amateur code-breaker Elonka Dunin had the plaintext translated. It appears to be a fragment of a KGB document about the morality of spying and a bit of a speech by dissident Andrei Sakharov. | ” |
The full-text isn't a lot longer (364 words), but I won't post it here (copyright). So, her involvement seems to be that she translated the text from Russian. Also, she's referred to as a "amateur code-breaker". Given that this is a science publication, I'm inclined to add "amateur" to cryptanalyst in the lead. Alternatively, if other editors feel strongly that the WaPo and NPR quotes have equal weight, then both views should be presented. Thoughts? VG ☎ 21:38, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
The story told by St. Louis Post-Dispatch is quite different. According to them Dunin was "leading the charge". There seems to be major contradiction here, but given that the newspaper story uses vague language, and also contains ridiculous uninformed sentences like "She knew binary - the language of computers - by heart", I'm inclined to discount it. But given that this is Wikipedia, we'd have to present both version and let the reader decide. VG ☎ 22:00, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
The 2006 NYT article says "computer game developer", but the older 2005 Wired article says "an executive producer and manager at Missouri gaming company Simutronics". I don't think she got demoted; it just seems that NYT was being concise. Thoughts? VG ☎ 19:45, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure what the value of this particular image is. It's a bit stylized and doesn't seem to adequately illustrate the point it's trying to make (which, as far as I can gather, is that she likes cryptography). Should we remove it?
ScienceApologist ( talk) 06:31, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Since the majority of the editing had died down, I attempted to do some grammar and flow repair. I also added additional references, added authors and other details to existing references and even repaired a disambig link or two. For some reason an editor has referred to my edits as whitewashing.
This editor also added information claiming that someone else decoded the sculpture. [13] I have no idea where this information comes from, but since it isn't in the source provided for the sentence, I've removed it for the time being. If there is a source out there that indicates Elonka's team only translated the work and based their work on that of Mike Bales and Frank Corr, then lets see that source and make sure the statement is properly referenced. Shell babelfish 22:08, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Made one more change - I moved the 2003 paragraph down one to put things in chronological order. I also tried my hand at re-wording the sentence a bit to make it more readable, its kind of a bear still, but I'm not sure how else to work it. I also removed the bit about the two "being on her team" - the reference says "including Mike Bales, a Michigan computer programmer on Dunin's team" but doesn't mention that Corr was part of that group. Shell babelfish 23:39, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Saw this in a couple of discussions above. "Amateur" isn't the phrase you're looking for - it's something more like "puzzle cryptographer". I'm an amateur in that it isn't my day job, but I'm taking part in the same field of study as professional cryptographers (see here), whereas even if breaking Kryptos was your day job, that wouldn't make you part of our field. ciphergoth ( talk) 16:44, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
For anyone wishing to update this page, I have a list of potential factoids on my userpage, at: User:Elonka#Stuff which could potentially be added to the official page at some point. Feel free to pick and choose. Elonka 11:29, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Hipocrite, thanks for taking on the project! Please check this page for sources that can be listed: http://www.elonka.com/elonkanews.html . Specifically: Articles in St. Louis Post Dispatch, Science magazine, Riverfront Times, Binary Revolution Radio episodes, KFTK Newsradio, Wired News, Woman's World magazine, GIGNews, Cleveland Plain Dealer, Cleveland Free Times, CNN, UK The Guardian, Wall Street Journal, IGDA website, St. Louis Business Journal, and Inc. Magazine. Most of them can also be found with pretty simple Google searches, but let me know if you'd like exact links. And if you see anything else at User:Elonka which you think would be relevant for the official article, but can't find a reference, let me know and I'll see what I can dig up to help. Elonka 16:47, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Elonka 16:59, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Because this edit was basically a reversion to the unverified version that was cleaned up about a month ago, instead of just reverting, I've put fact tags all over the article, and believe that all of the information that I mentioned cannot be verified except by Dunin herself. The standard for Wikipedia is VERIFIABILITY, not TRUTH. Hipocrite - «Talk» 15:11, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
This edit was actually a retooling of the "cleaned up" version so that it would come into line with the Template:Biography page. A list of bullet-points an encyclopedic article does not make. The bullet points were changed into complete sentences and strung together into paragraphs. A few details were added to flesh it out. These details came from reliable sources which are acceptable according to the WP:V. (Points not taken from news articles in respected publications were taken from "self-published sources for use in an article about themselves" which according to the WP:V, is okay.)
Since then, several people found typos and fixed links, which were good edits. The multitude of fact tags and wholesale rollbacks were removed because they made the article unreadable. I'm happy to add back in a few citations if they're necessary, but the CIA information is clearly verifiable. - Subversified 00:30, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Listing 5 generations of relatives seems like a stretch. Notable father, certainly, but great great grand-uncle? AnonEMouse (squeak) 17:18, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
I happened across this just because I saw her contributions as a Wikipedian. Dunin seems notable enough, but the tone of this article is a bit too autobiographical, sounding like something one might write on a profile of a blog or a social-network site. For example, some of the stuff about "dad took her to work", while probably true, is more like the conversation you would have at a party than like an encyclopedia entry. I see User:Elonka has contributed to the article, which may be the reason for the tone (I haven't traced where each wording came from). LotLE× talk 17:22, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
There is too much subjective data in this artice, as well as data that is presented as fact without a proper source citation. Where are the numbers that prove the site was more visited than the CIA's site? etc. Extreme with the use of distant relatives; some questionable. Again, citations?
We also agree that there are way too many subjective claims made. It reads more like an advertisement for this lady (Elonka Dunin), instead of a page out of an Encyclopedia.
September 27, 2006 User:
Johnyajohn
I tried to make it more like an entry in an encyclopaedia, not like her personal online resume. For example, stuff like who organized her trip to antarctica is totally unnecessary. Listing every plane she has worked on is also not necessary. "Various aircraft" is enough there. I wouldn't call her a cryptogrpher, maybe just "amateur cryptographer". There were too many details about her website, much more than you should find in an encyclopaedia. It was too much like a resume, with "she did this, she also did that", listing every little thing. Just hit the major stuff and eliminate the other stuff, and it'll be a better article. Checking the history, I see that she has edited the article herself in the past, isn't this against some unwritten rule? - conflict of interest or something. Bitethesilverbullet 15:19, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Elonka is not a cryptographer and it is wholly unaccurate to say that she is. Cryptographers are almost always professor types with PhDs who have studied the subject for years. They need to understand a wide variety of topics including (but not limited to): computer science, mathematics, number theory, group theory, computer architecture, the P!=NP question... As far as I know, Elonka has not studied these topics - in fact I do not see anywhere that says that she studied these at above the undergraduate level. If you can get a reputable cryptographer to say "yes she's one of us" or you can show me a paper that she has written for a peer-reviewed crypto journal (ACM or similar) I will gladly eat my hat. Her claims to fame: the phreaknic code (which was in my opinion just a brain-teaser) and her Kryptos web page and the mammoth book. That's about it - nothing that shows she is a legit cryptographer. She may be big in the pop culture pseudo-cryptography world, but in the hardcore crypto world, she's nobody. You know, there's more to cryptography than encrypting/decrypting quotations. I was generous when I called her an amateur cryptographer, I personally do not think she deserves to be called any type of cryptographer. Bitethesilverbullet 17:45, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
As I understand it, Elonka has not only published a book on the subject, but been called to the CIA to consult on cyptography, making her a professional cryptographer (ie one that gets paid to do cryptography). As I understand it, one's academic credentials are irrelevant in determining whether one is a member of a profession; most emerging fields rely mostly on those trained in other fields (eg computer science) coming to a new field. For example, no early cognitive psychologists were trained in the field. They were philosophers, computer scientists and so on. If we want to restrict those who can enter a field to those who have been in the academy, we'd be in sore trouble indeed! 68.190.90.190 05:27, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Come on, let's not be silly here: "cryptographer" is fine. If someone is known because of their work in cryptography, then we can call them a "cryptographer", just as we would call someone a "photographer" if they were known for taking photographs, or a "musician" if they were known for making music, and so on. The issue of whether someone is good or important at what they do is not relevant to the question of what name we call them when they partake in that activity. There's hundreds of people in Category:Musicians that have little or no musical talent, but that is irrelevant to whether or not we call them a "musician". — Matt Crypto 19:55, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
There have been three or four recent anonymous AfD taggings of this entry in the last week. They all ignore the recent unsuccessful vote (23/7/2006 see top of this discussion) for deletion. Rather than attempt to improve the article, a sort of underhanded vandalism is taking place based on what appears to be purely personal reasons. I agree that this article (and scads of others in wikipedia) can always be improved and that NPOV is desirable, but this isn't the approach that appears to be taken.
I have to explicitly compliment Johnyajohn as an example of someone who actually, and non-anonymously, engages in constructive criticism of the article. I would encourage the anonymous taggers (apparently from the University of Virginia according to one of the IP addresses - 128.143.230.221) to come out and engage without personal malice.
And, no, I am not a sockpuppet. Explicitly me for some time now, Quartermaster 12:54, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
While this is clearly a bright and unusual woman, the entire tenor of this template is promotional. Promoting what I cannot glean, but there is clearly an advertisement-like patina to this whole entry. While this contributor would appear to be a tireless editor of Wiki, this does not entitle a bio dwarfing Albert Schweizer's. It is anathema to the spirit of Wikipedia for posters to vote on or protect the content of firends - however controversial or prosaic. I would urge this entry to be deleted. Elonka Dunin's bio would fit quite well on the user pages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Harangus ( talk • contribs)
This article has obviously been targeted by vandals and they have attempted to put it through numerous dubious AFDs, even though one was recently carried out. I suggest that these should be treated just like any other vandals and vandalism warnings/further action should be taken when needed.
Just for the record, I have worked on articles with Elonka but all those questioning notability should in my look no further to the references section. I do agree that the article may need some tweaking. Englishrose 22:48, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
So far, I've had to revert two edits (and another is sitting around) that add Elonka's Wikipedia username to the article. I'm almost positive that we're not supposed to have those in the article proper (which is the rationale for the Notable Wikipedian talk page banner). However, I don't know where that rule is. Can anyone back me up? EVula 18:49, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
I removed some unsourced claims.-- Tom 14:27, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I learned about Elonka because of the DaVinci code, so references to Kryptos are warranted and should stay. Julia 21:51, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Plenty of people have become quite famous for trying to something and failing, from Squeaky Fromme to Robert Falcon Scott. Failure is irrelveant, merely notice is; she has been noticed for this, so we should write about it. That is not to say that Dunin has failed - from what I read, most references consider her quite successful. -- AnonEMouse (squeak) 22:15, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the fact that Elonka speaks more than one language, as this is so common it fails notinbility to be included in an article, and the fact is not critical to Dunin or her work.... it is therefore irrelevant.
Also removed was the mention that Dunin has been on a trip to Antartica. From the link to her personal website, she states why she made the trip:
Well, the quick answer is, "I hadn't been there yet!" <grin> The longer answer is that I'd been all the way around the world, and been to every other continent *but* Antarctica, so I knew that I was going to have to go there someday, just for completeness' sake. Also, this particular expedition was appealing to me because it was being sponsored by the Planetary Society, and I knew there would be some interesting co-travelers... Plus I liked that the invitation came from Dr. Louis Friedman, the Society's Executive Director, who was also going on this trip, and I wanted to meet him. Plus I just needed a vacation that would get my mind off work for awhile, and Antarctica fit the bill. Plus it was a good price for this particular trip, about $7,000 including airfare from St. Louis. Plus I figured I'd better go now, in 1999, before everything breaks in Y2K!"
I fail to see therefore why this trip is relevant to the article. I can understand if this is a vanity section written by Elonka or one of her friends, but not otherwise. If this was not Wikipedia but another encylopedia, would this detail be included about Elonka...? The answer surely would have to be 'No'....which is why it also has no place here. If the author wishes to boast about how exotic her holidays are, then there are blogs and personal webpages to impart this information; not in a dispasionate encyclopedia article. She is apparently notable for her work in the field of Cryptography, as opposed to being notable for the places she decides it would be interesting to holiday... This mention is therefore irrelevant. -- •CHILLDOUBT• 12:40, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I think that any person who has accomplished note worthy achievements in their lives that warrant having their own Wiki listing says a great deal about them and in that, I think that readers would take great interest in finding out all they can about a person, so the fact she speaks many languages, has traveled extensively may be of great interest to those reading to learn more about her. I think the material should stay. Julia 21:46, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
This whole section should be nuked IMHO as orginal research. We have a link already to her folks.-- Tom 16:26, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Agreed •CHILLDOUBT• 07:55, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I fail to see what 'depth' a mention of Elonka's holidaying gives to a dispasionate encyclopedia article! That detail is more suitable for a 'my space' page or a personal webpage. I reiterate, if this was not wikipedia, but another encylopedia written without Elonka's input, would the vacation detail be included? The answer would certainly be 'no'.. which is exactly the reason it also has no place here. In addition If the relatives section of the article 'can be sourced appropriately' as you state, then please source this and add to the article. All information should be verifiable. If it is notible enough to be included, it should be notable enough to be validated from an independent reliable source.
Also, in reply to AnonEmouse, Jimbo's intervention was not just in reply to someone who used personal interviews to write the article as you have stated; both the author and Jimbo specifically refer also to a family tree being used as part of the research of the article. Jimbo included the family tree as not being a reliable source for the article. The family tree mentioned there is exactly the one being disputed here... •CHILLDOUBT• 08:10, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
You are showing up far too often to defend the indefensible with regard to Elonka Dunin. Her tendentious editing has been well-chronicled. The bot-like editing habits have also been curious, but now we see Elonka shamelessly tout that she is amongst the top 200 wikipedians on the basis of rote edits. Thus, this mindless tagging activity was undertaken to drive edits up on the 'hit parade'. The self-references in "her" articles are unacceptable, as is the vanity and showcasing of friends and relatives. As a new admin, you should be aware of these issues and work with her to curtail and fix them, not defend the indefensible. 24.249.148.22 21:59, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
I fail to see how this section is in any way worthy of inclusion in an encylopedic article. It could perhaps be mentioned in a one-liner somewhere throughout, or mentioned in an article on Dunn, if there is one. However, an entire section on this rather unremarkable event is complete overkill and adds to the biographical tone of the article. Icemuon 21:46, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
And, for the record, NO, this is not a personal attack, just an observation on the total pointlessness of this entry...
Maybe we should all put our CV's on Wikipedia, but I thought that Wiki was attempting to become a credible medium of encyclopeadic information on the Internet, not for self-publicity seeking ego merchants to paste up their life story and that of their woefully un-spectacular personal and family histories.
This entire entry is no more suitable for a page than my life's contribution to the study of Ethiopian-styles of ballroom dancing. It belongs on a Wiki personal page and no more.
Considering that my family tree can be traced to before the Norman invasion of England and I hold an hereditary title (which was once owned by Elizabeth I and Francis Bacon) maybe I could start posting up my little life story and my g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-uncles and g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-grand-daddies and which castles they built, etc. (yawn) But there again, I am not a vain, egotistical numpty who wants to use Wikipedia as an online CV service - I do wonder if the crypto-consultancy industry needs a few heads at the moment... Hmmmmmmmmmm.
(I only mention dear old Lizzie the First and Nick Bacon as they have actually been heard of by most people)... not becuase I wish to pump up my ego. In fact, the title was grabbed by Liz after the Reformation, so it wasn't all that good news for us, after all... and certainly not something to be gloating about.
There are loads of unsubstantiated claims in this article, including stats about website hits compared to the CIA... oh yeah, come off it!! :-D
I think the German Wikipedians have got it about right... does not warrant inclusion.
Meanwhile, I'll carry on editing the 2-3 topics that I do know about (Templar History, aviation, and erm... maybe a bit of medieval history too) and I won't try to be all things to all people in offering my omnipotent edits on a variety of subjects that I only know a very little, unlike some of the people on here. Maybe it's just an attempt to get edit counts ever higher to make oneself look incredibly intelligent and important. And then get supported by all our colleagues from work and our own self-created crypto-society members, etc. to come to our defence when we need them.
P.S. By the way, my mother's Scottish line is distantly related to Alan Bean, your esteemed astronaut who was the fourth man on the moon, but I don't hold it against him. A good chap. :-)
Now, just where did I put that can of anti-ego spray? Lord Knowle 21:26, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Dear Lord Knowle - you must see the discussion of similar with Elonka in Tom Stone a magician. this is not a serious publication so friends who are the editors all help to make a big profile here. Jan Antwerpmagic2 10:10, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
I have just see Lord Knowle is a 'vandal'. I suppose this is significant from what I have been saying. Jan Antwerpmagic2 10:16, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
I've noticed that the wiki page about the OLHP was taken out... and I figured that noone would be better to add it again than you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.111.56.41 ( talk • contribs) 11:43, 14 June 2007
The three sections on the Elonka Dunin page (biography -> online games -> cryptography) are sequential in time. It might make better sense to boil down the three sections into one "my life" section, and create another "my life's work" section (like Kryptos and Cyrillic Projector and so on.) Mindraker 21:56, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone know of either a recording in which Elonka says her own name (e.g., by way of self-introduction), or else a written source in which Elonka herself describes how her name should be pronounced? I can find plenty of audio/video recordings (on her website) in which other people say her name, and virtually all of them say /ɪˈlɔŋkə 'dʌnɨn/, but one or two recordings have /iˈlɔŋkə 'dʌnɨn/ (slightly different initial vowel). These two pronunciations would, of course, likely be indistinguishable to many (possibly most, but probably not all) American English speakers. I went to school with Elonka a long time ago, but I can't remember for sure which of these two pronunciations she herself used (or if she used both indiscriminately) — and, of course, even if I did remember, that would clearly be OR and not usable here. Richwales ( talk) 06:35, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Hi all! There is a lot of assertions in this article that either have no citations, are not directly verifiable through the citations given, or are problematically sourced to primary source documents. Additionally, there is an issue of certain wording that is unspecific or dealing with general attribution. There are a lot of "facts" asserted in this article that I do not find sourced. Please help. ScienceApologist ( talk) 08:19, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Additionally, I also think there is an issue of this website reading like a "fansite". There seems to be obsessive focusing on the details of this person's life which are far from encyclopedic. As far as I can tell, she is famous for one particular event and the rest of her life (studying astronomy for a year in California?) is not likely encyclopedic. Additionally, the reliance on self-published primary sources (elonka.com?) is troubling, to say the least. ScienceApologist ( talk) 08:23, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Commenting on the two issues at hand: I do not see the article being read as a "fan site" per se. Given that the article is about Elonka, it would be fair to assume that her actions and her involvements would be fair game for inclusion, and I am not seeing that she was made notable for one event. She was on the team that cracked the Cyrillic Projector cipher and then published a book regarding that. She has also become a speaker for events relating to that. She was also involved with Cyberstrike and IGDA, although the latter needs citing. We've got articles on people for far less notable and singular events.
As for the self-references, I do agree with SA in that self-published references should be removed and replaced with third-party articles and citations. seicer | talk | contribs 16:43, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Honestly, the article can use some work but... I think the folks who are currently or regularly in a dispute with Elonka should probably steer clear of the article about her, to avoid the appearance of editing with an agenda or in the pursuit of a vendetta. Avruch T 17:04, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
The article doesn't read like a proper fan site, but it does have some tacky CV elements, and some minor aspects (like books in which she is acknowledged) were hyped up. So an "advert" tag would have been more appropriate (do we have a "reads like a CV tag"?). But I don't care much about tagging, as about fixing the article. Instead of endless COI comments here (SA has effectively stopped editing on it), I invite you address the issues in the article. Warring over the tags would be really silly. VG ☎ 23:43, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
I propose we merge this article to kryptos per WP:ONEEVENT considerations. Any objections? ScienceApologist ( talk) 10:52, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Can we explain exactly what makes this person notable? Let me start a list:
So, let me put it to the field, is there anything else which makes this person notable?
ScienceApologist ( talk) 20:05, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Kryptos may be good enough to stand as a separate article, but I think we should think about the value of the content forking policies. If we consolidate all the relevant articles first then we can think about which articles deserve to be spun off and which subjects should simply be integrated into the main article. ScienceApologist ( talk) 01:34, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
The last sentence in the lead is not sourced properly. The only thing we can verify from that source is that the subject of the article was an Online Games SIG steering committee member. ScienceApologist ( talk) 20:27, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Additionally, the sources for her breaking the PhreakNIC ciphers are all to interviews where she explains that she did it. Independent verification would go a long way to establishing this in actuality. ScienceApologist ( talk) 20:56, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Can anyone offer a reason for listing them? I don't see any indication of importance. They also makes her bio read like stuffed resume (see WP:RESUME). It's not clear if she authored them or was just an editor (as in journal editor, not Wikipedia editor). VG ☎ 21:13, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
SA added a citation needed tag to the lead after the sentence that says she was editor in chief. This can be easily verified from the 2004 IGDA white paper; I'll remove the citation needed tag. Feel free to link somehow to the paper if you think it's necessary. VG ☎ 15:54, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Listing those two books is a bit ridiculous. In what other biographies do we do this? VG ☎ 21:16, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
It did say where her "contributions are acknowledged" - does that mean she was a significant (credited) contributor, or just that she was mentioned in the acknowledgment as someone with a contribution to the field? Avruch T 22:50, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Looks to me like the consensus here is to get rid of this section. Am I reading that right? ScienceApologist ( talk) 06:50, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
This was left in in Crypto project talk page. I'm curious, what exactly makes this person a cryptographer? I haven't been able to find any cryptography related publications. It sounds like she's interested in puzzles and not modern cryptography. Does she have any refereed articles related to cryptography? Skippydo ( talk) 03:23, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
If we grant that the subject is notable enough for an article, and the jury is still out on this, I have a hard time understanding what relevance there is for listing her high school education, aborted college careers, airforce work, and interest in the internet. I just do not think this is encyclopedic. Moreover, it may be impossible to source to third parties. Therefore, I tagged the section.
ScienceApologist ( talk) 06:49, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
The birthdate issue is one that has come up from time to time at WP:BLP. The general consensus, as I remember it, unless there are third-party references to birthdates, it is likely that the birthdate is not important enough for inclusion. In general, birthdates should only be given if they are notable for some reason or if the person is famous enough that their birthdate might be encyclopedic (and if that is the case, there will be third party references to it). I'm fairly sure that we are not likely to find third-party sources for the birthdate, so I recommend removing it. ScienceApologist ( talk) 02:32, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
“ | Amateur cryptographers Mike Bales, a computer programmer in Michigan and Frank Corr, a computer programmer in North Carolina, have decrypted an unusual code. The "Cyrillic Projector" is just one of a number of codes created by artist James Sanborn. When Sanborn enthusiasts posted transcripts of the Cyrillic Projector's text on the Web, Bales and Corr decrypted it. By analyzing the statistical characteristics of the encrypted text, they independently discovered that the code was a variant of a well-known encryption scheme known as a Vignère cipher. But the resulting plaintext was Russian — a language neither code-breaker knew. By mid-September, game designer and amateur code-breaker Elonka Dunin had the plaintext translated. It appears to be a fragment of a KGB document about the morality of spying and a bit of a speech by dissident Andrei Sakharov. | ” |
The full-text isn't a lot longer (364 words), but I won't post it here (copyright). So, her involvement seems to be that she translated the text from Russian. Also, she's referred to as a "amateur code-breaker". Given that this is a science publication, I'm inclined to add "amateur" to cryptanalyst in the lead. Alternatively, if other editors feel strongly that the WaPo and NPR quotes have equal weight, then both views should be presented. Thoughts? VG ☎ 21:38, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
The story told by St. Louis Post-Dispatch is quite different. According to them Dunin was "leading the charge". There seems to be major contradiction here, but given that the newspaper story uses vague language, and also contains ridiculous uninformed sentences like "She knew binary - the language of computers - by heart", I'm inclined to discount it. But given that this is Wikipedia, we'd have to present both version and let the reader decide. VG ☎ 22:00, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
The 2006 NYT article says "computer game developer", but the older 2005 Wired article says "an executive producer and manager at Missouri gaming company Simutronics". I don't think she got demoted; it just seems that NYT was being concise. Thoughts? VG ☎ 19:45, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure what the value of this particular image is. It's a bit stylized and doesn't seem to adequately illustrate the point it's trying to make (which, as far as I can gather, is that she likes cryptography). Should we remove it?
ScienceApologist ( talk) 06:31, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Since the majority of the editing had died down, I attempted to do some grammar and flow repair. I also added additional references, added authors and other details to existing references and even repaired a disambig link or two. For some reason an editor has referred to my edits as whitewashing.
This editor also added information claiming that someone else decoded the sculpture. [13] I have no idea where this information comes from, but since it isn't in the source provided for the sentence, I've removed it for the time being. If there is a source out there that indicates Elonka's team only translated the work and based their work on that of Mike Bales and Frank Corr, then lets see that source and make sure the statement is properly referenced. Shell babelfish 22:08, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Made one more change - I moved the 2003 paragraph down one to put things in chronological order. I also tried my hand at re-wording the sentence a bit to make it more readable, its kind of a bear still, but I'm not sure how else to work it. I also removed the bit about the two "being on her team" - the reference says "including Mike Bales, a Michigan computer programmer on Dunin's team" but doesn't mention that Corr was part of that group. Shell babelfish 23:39, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Saw this in a couple of discussions above. "Amateur" isn't the phrase you're looking for - it's something more like "puzzle cryptographer". I'm an amateur in that it isn't my day job, but I'm taking part in the same field of study as professional cryptographers (see here), whereas even if breaking Kryptos was your day job, that wouldn't make you part of our field. ciphergoth ( talk) 16:44, 12 January 2009 (UTC)