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Surely this is more a triumph of technology, rather than feats of one person? We should therefore be celebrating the technolgical and navigational advances which were the prime means of attaining this record? Controversial I know. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.38.32.84 ( talk • contribs)
I'm getting really sick of hearing all this "triumph of technology" stuff. It's total garbage. The next person who tells me that "it's all easy now because it's all GPS" is going to be made to scrub out my holding tank. I'm sure a lot of people — and I'm thinking of people who've never sailed on the ocean — imagine that trimming sail in a gale is as simple as pressing a button on the GPS, but let me tell you that button ain't there. It's true that there are some boats with electric winches where sailing is done by button-pushing — I've sailed on an Amel Super Maramu which was like that — but those are illegal in racing and record setting, for the same reason that using the engine is illegal. These are sailing events, and for competitive purposes the boat has to be propelled and controlled by wind and muscle power only. (Exceptions are made for electronic auto-pilots — simply more accurate and safer than the traditional wind-powered equivalent.)
In any case, how do you imagine that "technology" helps with wrestling a huge, wet genoa weighing hundreds of pounds up through a tiny hatch onto a wet, heaving and wave-swept foredeck? I can tell you from experience that handling a 32-foot heavy-displacement yacht with 650 ft² of sail (main and genoa) in a gale is a serious physical challenge, even with crew. Doing the same single-handed on a 75-foot trimaran weighing a couple of tons less but with 2,900 ft² of sail is something I can't imagine and never want to experience!
What I think few people appreciate is just how incredibly hard racers have to work. To win, you have to keep the boat moving at top speed, and that means trimming sail for every change in the wind. Adjusting the sheets, putting in or shaking out a reef, or changing headsails goes on continually. (I wait hours after a wind change, on the off-chance that it won't hold, because (a) my heavy boat can take it, (b) I don't give a damn about speed, and (c) I can't be bothered!).
The reason that Ellen is the fastest sailor in the world is that she is prepared to push herself harder than any other person sailing on the ocean, in the world, bar none. At the slightest shift she's up there doing whatever it takes to keep the boat going at top speed, cranking a mainsail weighing as much as a small car up and down the mast God knows how many times a day. She wins because she commits more physical effort to the job than anyone else, beyond the point where most people would break down and give up. And that is a "feat of one person", pure and simple.
Technology obviously helps, but not with sailing the boat. Technology designed a fast boat in the first place, but that only made Ellen's job much, much harder — when Robin Knox-Johnston did his trip, he was on a small, heavy boat with a tiny sail plan (coincidentally almost identical to my own boat), a fraction of the effort to sail compared to Kingfisher or B&Q. Technology made B&Q into a huge boat that 10 people would have trouble managing. Technology helps with navigation, and with communication — both important — but not with sailing the boat, except for the cool 2-hand winches which allow Ellen to translate sweat into sailing speed faster than anyone else has ever done. — Johan the Ghost seance 13:01, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
In terms of words the Criticism section is by far the dominant part of this article. Questions for discussion:-
In summary valid negative criticim is not a problem but is she such a controversial character that requires such a large content in the article?. Do you agree that negative criticism in the article must be balanced with respect to the dominant praise from media, experts, fellow competitors etc on her achievements?? Boatman 07:33, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I think that most of this new copy is totally irrelevent to Wikipedia, and I suspect comes from someone who holds a grudge. I suggest that it be deleted. Do others agree? Philsy 16:16, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I'll try to reply to this properly later, but I do think that (in general terms) the level of praise she has received is easily equalled (or even surpassed) by both the objective criticism re changes in technology and the subjective criticism/satire re her temperement and motivations. Check almost any news article about her over the past couple of years, and you'll see that it refers to both. I appreciate that fans of hers may wish to keep the Wikipedia article clear of these matters, but I think the way forward for them would be build up on the positive side, rather than try to eliminate or water-down the negative side - which I think I've drafted quite reasonably and sourced with, among others, articles from both the BBC and The Guardian - both very respected sources. I certainly don't hold a "grudge" against her.
Labcoat 16:21, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Boatman, cheers for the reply. I'll take another look very soon and get back to you. Please leave 'as is', for the time being, though.
Labcoat 07:07, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Hello again. Boatman, I've re-read both your feedback and also the content of the Criticism section. Thanks again. I've deleted the bit about Leslie Grantham, because it doesn't really add anything valuable. However, with the rest, I think the real problem here is a lack of substantive content in the article generally re her positive achievements, rather than any serious problem with the content of the Criticism section per se. As things currently stand, I do agree that the overall article is now disproportionately weighted on the negative side. But the way forward would be for someone to add content that reflects her positive achievements more fully - for example, her charity work. I think the comments re self-promotion are justified, given the extreme wealth her racing career has earned her, together with the Damehood - which, at such a young age and in such an exclusive environment, did attract controversy over whether it was truly merited. Additionally, her temperament has been repeatedly lampooned by the UK tabloids and 'lads mags' - which, irrespective of one's opinions of them, do (for better or worse) represent a substantial percentage of the British public. You'll probably be aware that Wikipedia has in recent months and years come under attack for it's reliability as a source of information. One of the main charges being that many articles, particularly those concerning celebrities, are often closely 'guarded' by fans/supporters of the person/people concerned, who actively strike out or dilute anything which may construed as negative. I fear that this article may cited as an example of that if we do not permit sufficient space for fair criticism. Labcoat 20:24, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Hi.. I have a bit of a problem with the criticism section too. While it is perfectly fair to mention that Robin Knox-Johnston had a harder time than Macarthur because of the technological disparity, why is this a "criticism" of MacArthur? and if it isn't, why is it a section labelled 'Criticism'? Secondly, what exactly does it mean to say she "motivated by self-promotion".. in particular, what is alleged to be wrong with putting the logo of her sponsors on her yacht (aren't they paying for it after all)? And even if it were wrong, how would it constitute "self-promotion"? Thirdly, I am not sure that being accused of having whiny temperament is a notable criticism.. after all, she is not notable because of her personality and so I feel criticism of her personality is intrinsically non-notable as criticism. As a media phenomemon, bitching and satire about her whininess might be notable but perhaps it should be presented as a media phenomenon rather than as criticism. The only notable criticism I can see is that, having been perhaps disproportionately honoured and celebrated, she has not made an active effort to cut herself down to size or to acknowledge her colleagues and predecessors. I'm not sure this deserves a whole section called "criticism". Zargulon 17:39, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
In the criticism section, I feel it is unnecessary to include Knox-Johnston's quote as an example of criticism, it is merely an observation (however negative) on technological progress. I have retained the citation, but removed the text.
Secondly, the whole second part of the "Criticism" section is merely conjecture and personality-based. The accusations of marketing (her boat being called B&Q) should therefore be applied to any sportsperson racing under a sponsor's banner, which brings in all manner of F1 teams, a few football (soccer) teams such as Bayer Leverkusen, etc. etc..
If whinging and whining at 100mph winds, rough sea swells, homesickness and psychological stress is a bad thing, then maybe the criticism section should be levelled at the entire human race.
As such, I can see no merits in the second part of Criticism and I have lopped it. ~~ —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
80.4.187.123 (
talk)
02:51, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Hello
I'm not sure whether it's fair to assume that a shared opinion between two (or three, if you include the anonymous 'lopper') contributors forms any kind of "consensus". I also think that the near-wholesale, repeated (and anonymous) deletion of well-sourced article sections that have remained entirely unchallenged for almost five months could legitimately be considered a form of vandalism. The "consensus" you have claim disregards the preceding "consensus" on this page that justified the passages - in which, as you'll see, I participated and provided a reasoned justification for their inclusion. You'll see that I had already acknowledged that the criticism section was probably disproportionate in terms of size - but that the problem was more as a consequence of too little in terms of the 'positive' aspects of her career, rather than a fault with the "negative" comments in themselves.
Please be aware that I have no personal dislike of MacArthur. I do worry however that the article (as it now stands) provides an account that misses much of the controversy that she has been subject to.
Accordingly, at present I feel that the section has been edited unfairly. We are clearly in disagreement and need to try and work through this together.
(Also, Zargulon, please refrain from using language such as "I do not understand what this guy's (girl's?) problem is" and "...flinging accusations" on these pages. The tone and nature of such comments are contrary to the basic rules governing discussions on these pages.)
Labcoat 06:49, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Zargulon, for the sake of the article, let's put the issue of who's 'rule-breaking' and who isn't to one side. I agree that the deleted content sat awkwardly under the banner 'criticism'. If the passages were re-inserted under a new section entitled 'Perspectives', would that be acceptable to you and others?
Labcoat 10:51, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Right now the article reads like a hatchet job with all the criticism of Macarthur because she used more up to date technology than Know-Johnston did thirty years ago when Suhaili was already old. That is not a criticism it is a description of changing technology and may have a place in
Long distance sailing races but not as a Criticism of Macarthur. So that section should be moved to another article of deleted.
Secondly, if she does get tired, emotional and even whinges after being sleep deprived for months thatis hardly a criticism unless she is the only yachtsperson ever to do so. You could see if it fits in under
Sleep deprivation perhaps?
Thirdly, I doubt she threw a tantrum until Blair made her a Dame, it wasn't here decision so she should not be criticised for it.
Any comments about her personality are essentially POV even if sourced by POV writers in in POV papers. If she has been charged with a crime because of her personality or has been part of some public scandal as a result of it perhaps it would have a place. Because some journalistic hack or another competitor doesn't like her getting attention does not make it notable.
Dabbler
11:16, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
I think, with respect, that you may be missing the point slightly with this. MacArthur's whinging, self-promotion etc were included since they have become (fairly or otherwise) closely linked to her achievements in the eyes of both the public and those from within the sport. These points are therefore notable. Whether they should be termed 'criticism' or something else is a separate matter.
As a (fairly random) illustrative example of this point, see the article on Tony Slattery, which refers to how "Early in the 1990s he became over-exposed as a celebrity, to the extent that he was a target of satire."
Labcoat 11:49, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Lopper here again - i do have a Wiki username but I cannot remember my password -- Firstly I'm glad we've seen off a stupid vandal today.. IMHO Ellen IS pretty but that's POV.
Labcoat: One would normally include Character aspects if they were a major part of their public image.. for example Lee Evans manic energy, Gordon Brown's solemnity or Julian Clary's campness. However Ellen's persona is far far outweighed by her actual achievements. Forget what boat she used - the year she broke the record was 2004, not 1974. Her personality traits were only highlighted in a SATIRICAL comedy show, a few right-wing rent-a-mouths.. plus the previous version of Criticism used quotes in a prejudiced way - i.e. expounding an interpretation and then using a particular quote in such a way as to re-inforce a view. In a GCSE English Literature essay this would be ideal. In an ideal encyclopaedia entry we deal with facts and accepted norms, not conjecture and opinion.
Above all this, I do not think a heavily weighted Criticism section is beneficial to the article. People looking up Ellen MacArthur will be looking for her records, her essential information and her activities. They will not be looking for a character reference, and no sane / eduacated / informed person will for one second think that the round the world speed record is in any way less of an achievement than her predecessors. Fact is she did sail non-stop around the world faster than anyone else using the allowable technology she had available. If she was going for an unassisted record that would be something else, but she wasn't. And I hardly think linking in the Daily Mail, a newspaper with a reputation for being sniffy about individual achievement, helps.
OK it's now half midnight and I'm highly caffeinated...back to work! 80.4.187.123 —Preceding comment was added at 00:25, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
OK it's now half midnight and I'm highly caffeinated...back to work! 80.4.187.123 —Preceding comment was added at 00:25, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Hello
I fear that we might be going around in circles with this. 'Lopper', I'm not sure if I accept the argument that the inclusion of non-positive comments regarding MacArthur's career somehow denigrates her positive achievements. Also, you made a passing joke regarding some POV vandalism. Yes, it was a joke but I also wonder whether it hints at what might be influencing the reasons for wish to strike out the critical remarks? If you're an admirer of MacArthur's, perhaps you're unduly sensitive to non-positive aspects of her life? Personally, I really have no opinion either way.
You've dismissed the critical comments as being the product of right-wing / Daily Mail-style bigotry, which is an interpretation I find very odd, since the perceptions regarding her temperament are widespread throughout all sections of British society. This is evidenced by the fact that the deleted passages were sourced from a BBC1 (i.e national and very mainstream) show and national newspapers of practically opposite political leanings.
Her whining etc is a notable character trait because most people would describe her as such. And I'm afraid, whether we like it or not, her achievements absolutely are less of an achievement compared to her predecessors. To claim otherwise is like saying the modern tennis racquet performs basically the same as the wooden ones used 40 years ago.
Zargulon, the comment re 'self-promotion' concerns an arguably cynical belief that her primary motivation in the sport is to acquire fame and build on her vast wealth as opposed to any genuine love of the sport or personal ambition to break records.
Anyway, as per your suggestion, I would like to move the deleted passages to another section of the article. Labcoat 07:25, 16 November 2007 (UTC) 07:24, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Labcoat ( talk) 03:49, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
The only way to settle this would be to put a separate "Admiration" section in to counter the criticism section. We would then be getting into all manner of character references and opinionated conjecture; stuff I believe does not lie in a Wiki article. LOPPER 212.32.86.43 ( talk)
I think to get a 'Controversies' or 'Criticisms' section you've got to pretty much do something wrong, or appear to have done wrong. Such as a drink driving conviction or a strong suspicion of wrong-doing in the popular conscience. Gomez2002 ( talk) 14:10, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
As a non-sailor, perhaps I am not welcome to offer observations, in which case delete me. However, in looking over this colloquy I find myself wondering about several questions: 1) Are the correspondents underemployed, making available time to engage in this seemingly endless discussion? and 2) What is it about this woman (about which I know almost nothing, which is why I came to Wikipedia in the first place), which engenders such irrepressible emotion? OK, so now I know she has an abrasive manner (which apparently serves to disqualify her to some degree for recognition), and has performed remarkable feats (to which, to a disputed and unresolvable degree technology has contributed).Does anyone think this obsessive chat will resolve any of this? Give it a rest, please. Mallow1 ( talk) 01:29, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Yes. Bye. Mallow1 ( talk) 18:12, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Marvellous debate , and I hope it can be resolved in an amicable and beneficial manner (i.e the facts are presented , and people and allowed to make up their own mind ). I am a fan of Ms MacArthur and her achievements . So i maybe slightly biased . However where Labcoat suggested there was a wide spread acceptance, within the media of her "whining" persona. It seemed more the classic cases of , certainly the British media employing their , build you up knock you down syndrome. Also there was a very small band of male Sailors (from various periodicals and on-line forums ) who seemed to show distaine and contempt for her achievements, simply for her gender.
I believe the criticism part should remain , however reflect in its wording a more opinion based rather then factual outlook. I remember seeing both the Dead Ringers sketches, and reading the reactions in magazines (like Zoo and Loaded) while both mentioned this each were also complementary within either the same articles or other editions.
MacArthur is a Dame, was the title bestowed or inheritated? The article doesn't clarify this enough. Zidel333 ( talk) 23:03, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
It was bestowed, just how is the statement
"On her return to England on February 8, 2005, it was announced that she was to be made a Dame Commander of the Order of the British Empire in recognition of that achievement" not clear enough? M100 ( talk) 13:19, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I removed the line in Trivia claiming she is the youngest person to recieve a knighthood, since it is unsourced, and even a cursory glance at the lists of historical knights in British Chivalric Orders here on wikipedia show plenty of people knighted at an age lower than 29. She may be the youngest commoner to recieve a knighthood, or the youngest person since some particular date, but I do not have a source to verify that, so I thought it better to remove the line altogether. 82.28.182.227 ( talk) 00:02, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
The article contains this sentence. "She acquired her early interest in sailing, firstly by her desire to emulate her idol at the time, Sophie Burke and, secondly by reading Arthur Ransome's Swallows and Amazons books and is the Patron of the Nancy Blackett Trust[2] which owns and operates Ransome's yacht, Nancy Blackett." Does anyone agree that the part about her being patron of the Nancy Blackett Trust should be removed from "Early Life"? It hardly seems the right place for it, though I do think it's worth including in the article. I thought about moving it to the "Charitable activity" section but since the Nancy Blackett Trust is a limited company (I've confirmed that with Companies House) and I'm not sure of it's charitable status I'm not sure if that's the right place. I believe it makes sense to put it in Charitable activity, but thought I'd get other input first. Jack of Many ( talk) 11:51, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
Is there any need for this section. Why does it matter that other people think she's negative. Perhaps we should move the point about the technological advances to the actual section on here Round the World voyage.
The stuff about the parodies and satirisation could remain and the section renamed "Satire".
What do people think? RoyalBlueStuey ( talk) 16:13, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
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I think Ellen MacArthur Foundation should be merged with this page. There isn't enough RS about the EMF to justify a standalone article and this page isn't too lenghthy or unweildy to accomodate it. Daily Spider Glee ( talk) 13:30, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
I understand the points about length, though the characteristics of both a substantial person and an organisation are that they will grow and develop more material. This aside, the point about separation is vital. It is extremely useful to view the nature of a Foundation as being there for the long term, beyond the life of the founder. It is also useful to reflect the nature of relationship between an individual (albeit a founder) and an independent charitable foundation as being separate under charity law. For these reasons I argue that the pages remain distinct. Watkyn Jones ( talk) 17:53, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
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Surely this is more a triumph of technology, rather than feats of one person? We should therefore be celebrating the technolgical and navigational advances which were the prime means of attaining this record? Controversial I know. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.38.32.84 ( talk • contribs)
I'm getting really sick of hearing all this "triumph of technology" stuff. It's total garbage. The next person who tells me that "it's all easy now because it's all GPS" is going to be made to scrub out my holding tank. I'm sure a lot of people — and I'm thinking of people who've never sailed on the ocean — imagine that trimming sail in a gale is as simple as pressing a button on the GPS, but let me tell you that button ain't there. It's true that there are some boats with electric winches where sailing is done by button-pushing — I've sailed on an Amel Super Maramu which was like that — but those are illegal in racing and record setting, for the same reason that using the engine is illegal. These are sailing events, and for competitive purposes the boat has to be propelled and controlled by wind and muscle power only. (Exceptions are made for electronic auto-pilots — simply more accurate and safer than the traditional wind-powered equivalent.)
In any case, how do you imagine that "technology" helps with wrestling a huge, wet genoa weighing hundreds of pounds up through a tiny hatch onto a wet, heaving and wave-swept foredeck? I can tell you from experience that handling a 32-foot heavy-displacement yacht with 650 ft² of sail (main and genoa) in a gale is a serious physical challenge, even with crew. Doing the same single-handed on a 75-foot trimaran weighing a couple of tons less but with 2,900 ft² of sail is something I can't imagine and never want to experience!
What I think few people appreciate is just how incredibly hard racers have to work. To win, you have to keep the boat moving at top speed, and that means trimming sail for every change in the wind. Adjusting the sheets, putting in or shaking out a reef, or changing headsails goes on continually. (I wait hours after a wind change, on the off-chance that it won't hold, because (a) my heavy boat can take it, (b) I don't give a damn about speed, and (c) I can't be bothered!).
The reason that Ellen is the fastest sailor in the world is that she is prepared to push herself harder than any other person sailing on the ocean, in the world, bar none. At the slightest shift she's up there doing whatever it takes to keep the boat going at top speed, cranking a mainsail weighing as much as a small car up and down the mast God knows how many times a day. She wins because she commits more physical effort to the job than anyone else, beyond the point where most people would break down and give up. And that is a "feat of one person", pure and simple.
Technology obviously helps, but not with sailing the boat. Technology designed a fast boat in the first place, but that only made Ellen's job much, much harder — when Robin Knox-Johnston did his trip, he was on a small, heavy boat with a tiny sail plan (coincidentally almost identical to my own boat), a fraction of the effort to sail compared to Kingfisher or B&Q. Technology made B&Q into a huge boat that 10 people would have trouble managing. Technology helps with navigation, and with communication — both important — but not with sailing the boat, except for the cool 2-hand winches which allow Ellen to translate sweat into sailing speed faster than anyone else has ever done. — Johan the Ghost seance 13:01, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
In terms of words the Criticism section is by far the dominant part of this article. Questions for discussion:-
In summary valid negative criticim is not a problem but is she such a controversial character that requires such a large content in the article?. Do you agree that negative criticism in the article must be balanced with respect to the dominant praise from media, experts, fellow competitors etc on her achievements?? Boatman 07:33, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I think that most of this new copy is totally irrelevent to Wikipedia, and I suspect comes from someone who holds a grudge. I suggest that it be deleted. Do others agree? Philsy 16:16, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I'll try to reply to this properly later, but I do think that (in general terms) the level of praise she has received is easily equalled (or even surpassed) by both the objective criticism re changes in technology and the subjective criticism/satire re her temperement and motivations. Check almost any news article about her over the past couple of years, and you'll see that it refers to both. I appreciate that fans of hers may wish to keep the Wikipedia article clear of these matters, but I think the way forward for them would be build up on the positive side, rather than try to eliminate or water-down the negative side - which I think I've drafted quite reasonably and sourced with, among others, articles from both the BBC and The Guardian - both very respected sources. I certainly don't hold a "grudge" against her.
Labcoat 16:21, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Boatman, cheers for the reply. I'll take another look very soon and get back to you. Please leave 'as is', for the time being, though.
Labcoat 07:07, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Hello again. Boatman, I've re-read both your feedback and also the content of the Criticism section. Thanks again. I've deleted the bit about Leslie Grantham, because it doesn't really add anything valuable. However, with the rest, I think the real problem here is a lack of substantive content in the article generally re her positive achievements, rather than any serious problem with the content of the Criticism section per se. As things currently stand, I do agree that the overall article is now disproportionately weighted on the negative side. But the way forward would be for someone to add content that reflects her positive achievements more fully - for example, her charity work. I think the comments re self-promotion are justified, given the extreme wealth her racing career has earned her, together with the Damehood - which, at such a young age and in such an exclusive environment, did attract controversy over whether it was truly merited. Additionally, her temperament has been repeatedly lampooned by the UK tabloids and 'lads mags' - which, irrespective of one's opinions of them, do (for better or worse) represent a substantial percentage of the British public. You'll probably be aware that Wikipedia has in recent months and years come under attack for it's reliability as a source of information. One of the main charges being that many articles, particularly those concerning celebrities, are often closely 'guarded' by fans/supporters of the person/people concerned, who actively strike out or dilute anything which may construed as negative. I fear that this article may cited as an example of that if we do not permit sufficient space for fair criticism. Labcoat 20:24, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Hi.. I have a bit of a problem with the criticism section too. While it is perfectly fair to mention that Robin Knox-Johnston had a harder time than Macarthur because of the technological disparity, why is this a "criticism" of MacArthur? and if it isn't, why is it a section labelled 'Criticism'? Secondly, what exactly does it mean to say she "motivated by self-promotion".. in particular, what is alleged to be wrong with putting the logo of her sponsors on her yacht (aren't they paying for it after all)? And even if it were wrong, how would it constitute "self-promotion"? Thirdly, I am not sure that being accused of having whiny temperament is a notable criticism.. after all, she is not notable because of her personality and so I feel criticism of her personality is intrinsically non-notable as criticism. As a media phenomemon, bitching and satire about her whininess might be notable but perhaps it should be presented as a media phenomenon rather than as criticism. The only notable criticism I can see is that, having been perhaps disproportionately honoured and celebrated, she has not made an active effort to cut herself down to size or to acknowledge her colleagues and predecessors. I'm not sure this deserves a whole section called "criticism". Zargulon 17:39, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
In the criticism section, I feel it is unnecessary to include Knox-Johnston's quote as an example of criticism, it is merely an observation (however negative) on technological progress. I have retained the citation, but removed the text.
Secondly, the whole second part of the "Criticism" section is merely conjecture and personality-based. The accusations of marketing (her boat being called B&Q) should therefore be applied to any sportsperson racing under a sponsor's banner, which brings in all manner of F1 teams, a few football (soccer) teams such as Bayer Leverkusen, etc. etc..
If whinging and whining at 100mph winds, rough sea swells, homesickness and psychological stress is a bad thing, then maybe the criticism section should be levelled at the entire human race.
As such, I can see no merits in the second part of Criticism and I have lopped it. ~~ —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
80.4.187.123 (
talk)
02:51, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Hello
I'm not sure whether it's fair to assume that a shared opinion between two (or three, if you include the anonymous 'lopper') contributors forms any kind of "consensus". I also think that the near-wholesale, repeated (and anonymous) deletion of well-sourced article sections that have remained entirely unchallenged for almost five months could legitimately be considered a form of vandalism. The "consensus" you have claim disregards the preceding "consensus" on this page that justified the passages - in which, as you'll see, I participated and provided a reasoned justification for their inclusion. You'll see that I had already acknowledged that the criticism section was probably disproportionate in terms of size - but that the problem was more as a consequence of too little in terms of the 'positive' aspects of her career, rather than a fault with the "negative" comments in themselves.
Please be aware that I have no personal dislike of MacArthur. I do worry however that the article (as it now stands) provides an account that misses much of the controversy that she has been subject to.
Accordingly, at present I feel that the section has been edited unfairly. We are clearly in disagreement and need to try and work through this together.
(Also, Zargulon, please refrain from using language such as "I do not understand what this guy's (girl's?) problem is" and "...flinging accusations" on these pages. The tone and nature of such comments are contrary to the basic rules governing discussions on these pages.)
Labcoat 06:49, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Zargulon, for the sake of the article, let's put the issue of who's 'rule-breaking' and who isn't to one side. I agree that the deleted content sat awkwardly under the banner 'criticism'. If the passages were re-inserted under a new section entitled 'Perspectives', would that be acceptable to you and others?
Labcoat 10:51, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Right now the article reads like a hatchet job with all the criticism of Macarthur because she used more up to date technology than Know-Johnston did thirty years ago when Suhaili was already old. That is not a criticism it is a description of changing technology and may have a place in
Long distance sailing races but not as a Criticism of Macarthur. So that section should be moved to another article of deleted.
Secondly, if she does get tired, emotional and even whinges after being sleep deprived for months thatis hardly a criticism unless she is the only yachtsperson ever to do so. You could see if it fits in under
Sleep deprivation perhaps?
Thirdly, I doubt she threw a tantrum until Blair made her a Dame, it wasn't here decision so she should not be criticised for it.
Any comments about her personality are essentially POV even if sourced by POV writers in in POV papers. If she has been charged with a crime because of her personality or has been part of some public scandal as a result of it perhaps it would have a place. Because some journalistic hack or another competitor doesn't like her getting attention does not make it notable.
Dabbler
11:16, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
I think, with respect, that you may be missing the point slightly with this. MacArthur's whinging, self-promotion etc were included since they have become (fairly or otherwise) closely linked to her achievements in the eyes of both the public and those from within the sport. These points are therefore notable. Whether they should be termed 'criticism' or something else is a separate matter.
As a (fairly random) illustrative example of this point, see the article on Tony Slattery, which refers to how "Early in the 1990s he became over-exposed as a celebrity, to the extent that he was a target of satire."
Labcoat 11:49, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Lopper here again - i do have a Wiki username but I cannot remember my password -- Firstly I'm glad we've seen off a stupid vandal today.. IMHO Ellen IS pretty but that's POV.
Labcoat: One would normally include Character aspects if they were a major part of their public image.. for example Lee Evans manic energy, Gordon Brown's solemnity or Julian Clary's campness. However Ellen's persona is far far outweighed by her actual achievements. Forget what boat she used - the year she broke the record was 2004, not 1974. Her personality traits were only highlighted in a SATIRICAL comedy show, a few right-wing rent-a-mouths.. plus the previous version of Criticism used quotes in a prejudiced way - i.e. expounding an interpretation and then using a particular quote in such a way as to re-inforce a view. In a GCSE English Literature essay this would be ideal. In an ideal encyclopaedia entry we deal with facts and accepted norms, not conjecture and opinion.
Above all this, I do not think a heavily weighted Criticism section is beneficial to the article. People looking up Ellen MacArthur will be looking for her records, her essential information and her activities. They will not be looking for a character reference, and no sane / eduacated / informed person will for one second think that the round the world speed record is in any way less of an achievement than her predecessors. Fact is she did sail non-stop around the world faster than anyone else using the allowable technology she had available. If she was going for an unassisted record that would be something else, but she wasn't. And I hardly think linking in the Daily Mail, a newspaper with a reputation for being sniffy about individual achievement, helps.
OK it's now half midnight and I'm highly caffeinated...back to work! 80.4.187.123 —Preceding comment was added at 00:25, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
OK it's now half midnight and I'm highly caffeinated...back to work! 80.4.187.123 —Preceding comment was added at 00:25, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Hello
I fear that we might be going around in circles with this. 'Lopper', I'm not sure if I accept the argument that the inclusion of non-positive comments regarding MacArthur's career somehow denigrates her positive achievements. Also, you made a passing joke regarding some POV vandalism. Yes, it was a joke but I also wonder whether it hints at what might be influencing the reasons for wish to strike out the critical remarks? If you're an admirer of MacArthur's, perhaps you're unduly sensitive to non-positive aspects of her life? Personally, I really have no opinion either way.
You've dismissed the critical comments as being the product of right-wing / Daily Mail-style bigotry, which is an interpretation I find very odd, since the perceptions regarding her temperament are widespread throughout all sections of British society. This is evidenced by the fact that the deleted passages were sourced from a BBC1 (i.e national and very mainstream) show and national newspapers of practically opposite political leanings.
Her whining etc is a notable character trait because most people would describe her as such. And I'm afraid, whether we like it or not, her achievements absolutely are less of an achievement compared to her predecessors. To claim otherwise is like saying the modern tennis racquet performs basically the same as the wooden ones used 40 years ago.
Zargulon, the comment re 'self-promotion' concerns an arguably cynical belief that her primary motivation in the sport is to acquire fame and build on her vast wealth as opposed to any genuine love of the sport or personal ambition to break records.
Anyway, as per your suggestion, I would like to move the deleted passages to another section of the article. Labcoat 07:25, 16 November 2007 (UTC) 07:24, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Labcoat ( talk) 03:49, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
The only way to settle this would be to put a separate "Admiration" section in to counter the criticism section. We would then be getting into all manner of character references and opinionated conjecture; stuff I believe does not lie in a Wiki article. LOPPER 212.32.86.43 ( talk)
I think to get a 'Controversies' or 'Criticisms' section you've got to pretty much do something wrong, or appear to have done wrong. Such as a drink driving conviction or a strong suspicion of wrong-doing in the popular conscience. Gomez2002 ( talk) 14:10, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
As a non-sailor, perhaps I am not welcome to offer observations, in which case delete me. However, in looking over this colloquy I find myself wondering about several questions: 1) Are the correspondents underemployed, making available time to engage in this seemingly endless discussion? and 2) What is it about this woman (about which I know almost nothing, which is why I came to Wikipedia in the first place), which engenders such irrepressible emotion? OK, so now I know she has an abrasive manner (which apparently serves to disqualify her to some degree for recognition), and has performed remarkable feats (to which, to a disputed and unresolvable degree technology has contributed).Does anyone think this obsessive chat will resolve any of this? Give it a rest, please. Mallow1 ( talk) 01:29, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Yes. Bye. Mallow1 ( talk) 18:12, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Marvellous debate , and I hope it can be resolved in an amicable and beneficial manner (i.e the facts are presented , and people and allowed to make up their own mind ). I am a fan of Ms MacArthur and her achievements . So i maybe slightly biased . However where Labcoat suggested there was a wide spread acceptance, within the media of her "whining" persona. It seemed more the classic cases of , certainly the British media employing their , build you up knock you down syndrome. Also there was a very small band of male Sailors (from various periodicals and on-line forums ) who seemed to show distaine and contempt for her achievements, simply for her gender.
I believe the criticism part should remain , however reflect in its wording a more opinion based rather then factual outlook. I remember seeing both the Dead Ringers sketches, and reading the reactions in magazines (like Zoo and Loaded) while both mentioned this each were also complementary within either the same articles or other editions.
MacArthur is a Dame, was the title bestowed or inheritated? The article doesn't clarify this enough. Zidel333 ( talk) 23:03, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
It was bestowed, just how is the statement
"On her return to England on February 8, 2005, it was announced that she was to be made a Dame Commander of the Order of the British Empire in recognition of that achievement" not clear enough? M100 ( talk) 13:19, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I removed the line in Trivia claiming she is the youngest person to recieve a knighthood, since it is unsourced, and even a cursory glance at the lists of historical knights in British Chivalric Orders here on wikipedia show plenty of people knighted at an age lower than 29. She may be the youngest commoner to recieve a knighthood, or the youngest person since some particular date, but I do not have a source to verify that, so I thought it better to remove the line altogether. 82.28.182.227 ( talk) 00:02, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
The article contains this sentence. "She acquired her early interest in sailing, firstly by her desire to emulate her idol at the time, Sophie Burke and, secondly by reading Arthur Ransome's Swallows and Amazons books and is the Patron of the Nancy Blackett Trust[2] which owns and operates Ransome's yacht, Nancy Blackett." Does anyone agree that the part about her being patron of the Nancy Blackett Trust should be removed from "Early Life"? It hardly seems the right place for it, though I do think it's worth including in the article. I thought about moving it to the "Charitable activity" section but since the Nancy Blackett Trust is a limited company (I've confirmed that with Companies House) and I'm not sure of it's charitable status I'm not sure if that's the right place. I believe it makes sense to put it in Charitable activity, but thought I'd get other input first. Jack of Many ( talk) 11:51, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
Is there any need for this section. Why does it matter that other people think she's negative. Perhaps we should move the point about the technological advances to the actual section on here Round the World voyage.
The stuff about the parodies and satirisation could remain and the section renamed "Satire".
What do people think? RoyalBlueStuey ( talk) 16:13, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
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I think Ellen MacArthur Foundation should be merged with this page. There isn't enough RS about the EMF to justify a standalone article and this page isn't too lenghthy or unweildy to accomodate it. Daily Spider Glee ( talk) 13:30, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
I understand the points about length, though the characteristics of both a substantial person and an organisation are that they will grow and develop more material. This aside, the point about separation is vital. It is extremely useful to view the nature of a Foundation as being there for the long term, beyond the life of the founder. It is also useful to reflect the nature of relationship between an individual (albeit a founder) and an independent charitable foundation as being separate under charity law. For these reasons I argue that the pages remain distinct. Watkyn Jones ( talk) 17:53, 9 November 2021 (UTC)