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I think there needs to be more information.
-- Martin TB 18:52, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Shouldn't this be at Queen Elizabeth II, or Queen Elizabeth, or worst case, Queen Elizabeth II (UK), per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names), since that is how she is most commonly referred to? (and that's how most of the articles link here) Niteowlneils 20:40, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Why isn't it written plain and bold who her parents are?
moved down here, for want of a better place James F. (talk) 01:44, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)]
Can someone post a piece on what her actual surname is... "Windsor" is the most common answer, but there is good cause to debate this as she married a man not called "Windsor".
Her surname is Mountbatten-Windsor. Her House, however, is the House of Windsor, jguk 09:08, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The name of the royal House and Family is Windsor. Whether the Queen, personally, has a surname is debatable, and if she does, it's an open question whether it's Windsor, Mountbatten, or Mountbatten-Windsor. By a decree of 1960, her descendants in the male line who are not royals (at this writing, no one of that description has been born) will bear the surname Mountbatten-Windsor. That seems to imply that her children's surname, if they have one, is Windsor, but when Princess Anne was married to Capt. Phillips her surname was listed on the marriage certificate as "Mountbatten-Windsor". (That seems to indicate that the royal family are a little unclear about this issue themselves.) Under normal circumstances, royal persons don't use surnames; one would not refer to the Queen as "Elizabeth Windsor" or "Mrs. Mountbatten." -WRBarrett, 20 Feb 2005
The Queen has no surname, as she is the Queen. I know many will not accept this, but it is technically true. And as Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, we write the truth and nothing but the truth! So while she has officially no surname, the name of the current Royal House in the UK, and Her Majesty's other Realms, is simply Windsor. The surname Mountbatten-Windsor is however used by some of her descendants. See the article relating to it! David, England :)
The Queens surname should be Saxe-Coburg-Gotha Mountbatten but her grandfather King George V changed it to Windsor due to the first world war, he didn't want morale to fall because of his german second name so he changed it. Legally the Queen is Called Elizabeth Mountbatten-Windsor taking Price Philips Surname aswell as Windsor.TJ
There are a number of things in this article which I believe undermine its neutrality, or objectivity. I am only going to list a few of these.
There are other things, but I believe this list is long as it is, and something to begin with.
On any other article... perhaps even the Pope or the Dalai lama's, such a one sided screed would be considered POV. All it really does is praise the woman, and make her look like some kind of demi-goddess.
To quote Oliver Cromwell, let's have a portrait of her warts and all, not something that could almost be written by one of her palace employees.
"I agree with David - the "list" is an attempt to distort the article into a republican view of EII"
Better an article which reflects BOTH republican and monarchist points of view, than one which is merely a hagiography.
(Actually looking at the list, I see little which specifically reflects a republican POV other than the comment about the Australian referendum).
"She was the first British monarch to be out of the country at the moment of succession."
That doesn't sound likely to me, given the cases where the successor to the throne was under threat of death from the current incumbent. Is anyone sure this is the case, or have a counterexample? DJ Clayworth 18:57, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Prior to George I, England has the examples of Charles II (if you consider him to have succeeded in 1649), James I (who was in Scotland), Edward I (who was on Crusade), Richard I (who was in France), at least. Scotland has James I (who was a prisoner in England). john k 20:26, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
It's misleading to title the page dedicated to Queen Elizabeth II as "Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom".
This causes readers to believe that the British Queen reigns over the other Commonwealth Realms, when in reality Elizabeth II is queen of one Crown over 16 seperate, but equal, Realms-- the United Kingdom included. Therefore she can also be titled as Elizabeth II of Canada, Elizabeth II of New Zealand, Elizabeth II of Jamaica, and so on.
The information on the page itself makes clear that the Queen is not simply Queen of the UK (as do other pages such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarchy_in_Canada), therefore the tile of the page should reflect this. gbambino
It is in accordance with no. 4, but I see Gbambino's point that no.4 does not work well for Commonwealth/British Empire monarchs since Victoria's time, say, because they were/are queens/kings of many other realms too. It seems only right that we respect that The Queen is the Queen of many nations, not just the United Kingdom. I wonder whether renaming this article "Elizabeth II" or "Queen Elizabeth II" (and similarly for all monarchs since Victoria) may not be more sensible. However, this should be proposed as a change in policy on Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (names and titles) - if it is so proposed, I'll support it, jguk 10:55, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
There are no other Elizabeth II's that I am aware of. However, I believe this is a bad idea, and one which is unnecessary. While Elizabeth II is certainly queen of many nations, to say they are equal is silly. Not only does the Queen reside in the UK, but she is referred to as the Queen of the UK when she is everywhere except in one of her fifteen other realms. That is to say, she is the Queen of Canada in Canada, but even in Canada she is the Queen of the UK when she visits the United States. As such, privileging the UK title seems proper. john k 16:30, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
By the way, doing it for all monarchs since Victoria is simply a terrible idea. George V, for instance, shares his name with other rulers - notably his first cousin twice removed, who was King of Hanover from 1851-1866. And just "Victoria" is also awful. From 1877 to 1922, the only titles used were "King/Queen of the UK" and "Emperor/Empress of India". The India title was explicitly used only in India. So UK is appropriate here. In 1922, the style changed, and you have King of Great Britain, Ireland, and the Overseas Dominions" or some such. This remains to the current queen's coronation. The monarchs who ruled only in this period - Edward VIII and George VI - have some argument that they should be "Edward VIII of Great Britain and Ireland" - but I think even this is silly. The basic fact is that the UK is the principal realm of Elizabeth II and her predecessors, and it is simply not POV for the article title to indicate this. john k 16:35, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarification on use of commonwealth titles. Nevertheless, the Queen lives in the UK, and this crown is quite clearly the preeminent one, de facto if not de jure. The UK, for instance, has in effect the power to abolish the monarchy for all the other commonwealth realms if it wants to abolish the monarchy, but the commonwealth realms have no corresponding ability. At any rate, it is standard practice to use the first of several technically equal realms, only, in article titles. For example, the Stuarts who ruled over both England and Scotland are at Charles I of England, not Charles I of England, Scotland, and Ireland. The early Hanoverians are at George I of Great Britain, not George I of Great Britain and Ireland. In spite of the numerous titles of the Habsburg Kings of Spain, none of which was "King of Spain", they are all at Philip II of Spain, not Philip II of Castile, Aragon, Valencia, Navarre, Portugal, Naples, Sicily, and Sardinia. We have Henry IV of France, not Henry IV of France and Navarre. We have Christian IV of Denmark, not Christian IV of Denmark and Norway, and Oscar I of Sweden not Oscar I of Sweden and Norway. Perhaps it should be clarified that in cases where someone is a monarch of several countries at once, only the first is to be listed in article titles, if this is not already done. At any rate, Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom is perfectly in line with our practices on all these other monarchs. As to Bhumibol Adulyadej, his name is obviously unique in a way that those of European monarchs are not - my understanding was that these naming conventions only apply to western monarchs. john k 18:42, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Gbambino, you are correct that, de jure if Britain were to become a republic, each of the other commonwealth realms would be able to retain the monarchy if it so chose. However, de facto, this would mean the end of the monarchy everywhere - the monarchy could not plausibly continue in Canada if the Queen were no longer Queen of the UK. I also was not saying that constitutionally the commonwealth realms were inferior to the British crown. I was saying, and am still saying, that the British crown is the most prominent of her several titles, and that the fact that she lives in Britain is completely immaterial. You have not at all addressed my point about previous personal unions, and use of only one state. Oscar I of Sweden, Christian IV of Denmark, James I of England, George I of Great Britain, Henry IV of France, all conform to Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom - none of these deny that these people were not equally Kings of Norway, Norway, Scotland and Ireland, Ireland, and Navarre, respectively. But they are commonly referred to by the "first" country they are king of, and there's nothing wrong with titling our articles in this way. john k 23:16, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I do not see any reason why Canada could not remain its own monarchy, we've been doing it for quite some time now and have yet to encounter any problems. gbambino is correct (in everything he says), this article is obviously misnamed. -- Maxwell C. 00:32, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
So there's communist revolution in England, the Queen and her whole family are executed by the Bolshevik rebels...does Canada then take in the exiled Lord Frederick Windsor and give him a palace to live him and let him be king? Of course they wouldn't. They'd just abolish the monarchy, give the powers of the monarch/governor-general to an indirectly elected president, and be done with it. The only reason the commonwealth monarchies can exist is because Britain foots the bill for the monarchy, and hosts the monarch. If the monarch got kicked out of the UK, the situation of the commonwealth realms would be deeply awkward. Also, think about if the British amended the Act of Settlement - they won't do it, I think, but if they did, and it appeared to make a difference, all the Commonwealth realms would have to change their succession laws, because they don't want to end up with a monarch who is not the British monarch. There is the fiction of equality, and de jure equality, but de facto Britain has a degree of control over the situation that the commonwealth realms do not have.
I would also ask all of you supporting the move to explain why you don't care about Henry IV of France, Oscar I of Sweden, Christian IV of Denmark, James I of England, George I of Great Britain, and so forth? Doesn't Frederick I of Prussia give to much emphasis to his title of King in Prussia, and suggest that he was not equally Imperial Elector, Margrave of Brandenburg, Duke of Magdeburg, Duke of Kleve, &c &c &c? Doesn't referring to Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor unfairly denigrate the Castilians whose king he was? Or the people of Brussels, whom he ruled in his capacity as Duke of Brabant? Would not the Saxon people object to Augustus II of Poland's article not bearing any reference to him as their beloved Prince-Elector Frederick Augustus I? Shall we bow to the desire of Hungarians that Karl of Austria should indicate his status as King Karoly IV of Hungary? You continue to pretend that the commonwealth monarchies are a unique situation in history. But they are not. Hundreds of European monarchs have ruled over constitutionally distinct entities that had no connection besides the person of their ruler. In nearly all of these cases, we have chosen to put the article at Name Number of Principalstateruled. Henry IV of France and Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom are simply identical situations. Given that Henry IV is actually called "Henry of Navarre", there is probably a considerably stronger case for putting Navarre in his article title. But we don't do that, because this opens a floodgate to more and more irritating article titles. john k 06:35, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
"I would also ask all of you supporting the move to explain why you don't care about Henry IV of France, Oscar I of Sweden, Christian IV of Denmark, James I of England, George I of Great Britain, and so forth?"
In part because it's garnered the attentions of Canadian monarchists.
http://members.boardhost.com/monarchist/msg/14450.html http://members.boardhost.com/monarchist/msg/14417.html
This post sums up their intent nicely:
"Maybe, as monarchists, we could use this to our advantage. Promote the monarchy through this self-editing on-line encyclopedia."
My contribution is perhaps not relevant to the article in question but already there are some pro-monarchy posts here from common contributors to the board referenced above. And yes, I'm a republican, but I don't want to see the neutral pov hijacked.
This debate is ridiculously pedantic. It would be completely impractical for us to have an article titled [[Elizabeth II of Antigua and Barbuda, Australia, The Bahamas, Barbados, Belize, Canada, Grenada, Jamaica, New Zealand, Papua New Guinea, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, The Solomon Islands, Tuvalu, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland]], as for the suggestion of Elizabeth II of the Commonwealth Realms that would be fine if she was actually known as that. It is not our role to coin new names or titles and as she is simply not known as "Elizabeth II of the Commonwealth Realms" it would be absurd for us to start calling her that here. That fact is she is best known as Queen of the UK and so the current article title is the most appropriate. The introduction of the article explains she is also Queen of x, y and z countries which fulfills the requirements of accuracy. AndyL 19:30, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
What gbambino overlooks is that even the Queen's Canadian title gives primacy to her role as British Queen for she is, in Canada, "Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Canada, and her other realms...". If being Queen of Canada is an afterthought in her Canadian title I don't think gbambino really has much of an argument in citing the so-called "Canadian" example. AndyL 22:34, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Wait five years. The next Australian PM, whether Liberal or Labor, will likely be a republican and the question of what to call the "Queen of Australia" will be moot. AndyL 00:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Why are you people unable to see that gbambino makes sense? The name IS obviously biased, and is shown from only ONE POV. This CLEARLY clashes with the wikipedia NPOV policy. As a sidenote, I really do not care about the other monarchs, as they are not currently reigning over my country. -- Maxwell C. 02:27, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
gbambino, you've complained a lot but you've yet to suggest an alternative title for the article. AndyL 03:31, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Incidentally, this "fork" of the article is not an appropriate way to make changes. Propose them here or simply edit the article itself because page histories are difficult to merge. — Dan | Talk 13:16, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I have also noted the unnaturally large contingent of republicans who hang out on the wikipedia, gbambino. -- Maxwell C. 01:45, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Ah, Maxwell C, another visitor from the Monarchist League of Canada maessage board, I presume. Anyeay, gambino, I must have missed it so please reiterate your proposal, how do you suggest the article be renamed? AndyL 04:41, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Her Brittanic Majesty (the correct title for outside the UK), officially has no surname.
Her maiden name is Sachsen Coburg und Gotha. This was changed during the First World War to Windsor, as German names were not the most popular at the time.
Prince Philip also changed his name when marrying the them Princess Elizabeth, to Mountbatten, the maiden name of his mother (The Mountbattens also changed their name in the First World War, from Battenburg). His birth name was Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Gluecksburg.
Without name changes, Her surname (if she were not Queen), would be Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Gluecksburg. Because of them, however, Her decendants (who do not inherit the throne) are called Mountbatten-Windsor.
Philip's mother was never named Mountbatten. She was Princess Alice of Battenberg at the time of her marriage fo Prince Andrew of Greece and Denmark. There is no particular reason to say that either "Sachsen Coburg und Gotha" or "Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg" is a surname. They are house names. Philip's cousin King Constantine, I believe, does not list a surname on his passport. The Glücksburg name is silly, in any case - it was superseded, at the very least, when the other Schleswig-Holstein line died out early in the last century, leaving the Glücksburg line as the only Schleswig-Holstein line in existence. Furthermore, one might say that it is inappropriate to use it for Christian IX's descendants, since they bear the higher title of Prince/ss of Denmark. The semi-fraudulent dynastic names of "Wettin" and "Oldenburg" are not really surnames either - they are just names derived from the places ruled by those dynasties before they ruled their more famous places. The "House of Saxony" and "House of Denmark" make just as much sense. (And for Philip "House of Greece" would also be appropriate). For people bearing the title of Prince/Princess, "Windsor" and "Mountbatten-Windsor" are not surnames either - once again, they are house names. Only non-royal members of the house, like Lord Nicholas Windsor, can be considered to have surnames. john k 16:26, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Insert non-formatted text hereMy understanding is that the 1917 proclamation says that the house name is Windsor, and that male line descendants of George V who do not have a royal title will have the surname of Windsor. The others don't really have a surname, whatever pro forma requirements have to be gotten around. john k 06:37, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I've always wondered, does the queen have a passport? Seabhcán 15:07, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I'm not getting involved, but I'd just like to point out that User:Gbambino/Queen Elizabeth II (1926- present) seems to have been created as some sort of fork. sjorford :// 10:21, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I think we have 4 suggestions of where this page should go. Maybe we should see who likes what. I'm deliberately being positive and only having "supports" - and also suggesting users might wish to support more than one of the options below: jguk 17:18, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Supported by:
Supported by:
Supported by:
Supported by:
Why oh why can't we just stick to the conventions for royal titles and apply a consistent standard, rather than trying to impose individual practices. It is ridiculous to make this change for Elizabeth only - what about her father, uncle and grandfather for a start? Then there's the numerous personal unions cited above, to say nothing of those monarchs who's title included lands they didn't rule and so on. If there's a clear case and support for changing the convention then fair enough to change all the monarchs affected, but let's stop trying to make individual exceptions that have no clear reason to be unique. Timrollpickering 20:11, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
James F. (talk) 21:30, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Why isn't The Queen an option? That's what she is most commonly called in the UK. :p (being facetious here) Morwen - Talk 19:58, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Why isn't "Betsy Windsor" an option? -- MarkSweep 21:23, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Would anyone support listing this page on Wikipedia:Requests for comment? It might help reach a consensus over the naming of this article. Aoi 10:46, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
While the Isle's name is certainly "Man", the name given to its monarch is "Lord of Mann". This is corroborated by the Isle's official website, which is probably a more reliable resource on the subject than an American dictionary. — Dan | Talk 23:20, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
To start with
Which Prime Minister is this? I intend to remove this claim unless I can find substantation of this. Morwen - Talk 17:29, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Other claims this article makes that ought to be verifiable, and ought to have more specifics (assuming they aren't just hearsay)...
I presume the "mutual sporting interest" is cricket. Which leader? Where does this come from? I have Major's autobiography and don't remember this, but will check.
Where does this come from? Who did she make the pointed reference to? In a public statement? Was this a press release, or what?
Who?
What rumoured infidelities? Who rumours them? How did Elizabeth and Philip meet, anyway?
Is this referring to the debacle over the Queen Mothers' funeral? (I can barely remember what that row was about...)
Other things
Morwen - Talk 12:02, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Could have been taken from "Hello" magazine. Refdoc 22:38, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This article has said for a while that QE2 is the most widely travelled head of state. Just now an anon has added "behind Pope John Paul II" - does anyone know which of these is true? I've not reverted for now but I'll make a note on the RC patrol pages. Thryduulf 20:23, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Pope John Paul II is not, at the moment, a head of state. Are we talking about "most widely travelled of all time" or "most widely travelled current head of state"? john k 21:01, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I noticed (in a photo in the Canada article) that the the Queen wears the Order of Military Merit award (likely only when she's in Canada). No slight intended, but I'm curious: did the Queen earn this or does she wear it because of the position she holds? It is apparently "an award issued by Canada to members of the Canadian Forces whom have demonstrated dedication and devotion beyond the call of duty." I know she's the Sovereign of this Order, but then I would assume she's the Sovereign of essentially every order in the Canadian Forces, so maybe a more interesting question is what awards or insignias does she wear and why? -- Ds13 20:17, 2005 Apr 12 (UTC)
Her Majesty wears these honours not because she earned them but because she is the
Fount of honour and she issues the honours, But in saying this Her Majesty did serve in the British army during Wrold war 2 so she may have earned it.
Her Majesty is indeed sovereign of the Order of Military Merit, as she is Sovereign of the Order of Canada -- Ibagli 23:02, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Oh how "bitty" and "messy" this artcle is beging to look; recent changes make it look awlful and so un-planed. Also i am not happy with the length being changed.
Well, one thing that I believe should be emphasized: Her Majesty is a very beautiful woman, indeed.
I'm not joking, I'm serious.
And she's very motherly.
(I'm not English, I'm Italian.)
God bless and save her. This is my serious prayer.
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
I think there needs to be more information.
-- Martin TB 18:52, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Shouldn't this be at Queen Elizabeth II, or Queen Elizabeth, or worst case, Queen Elizabeth II (UK), per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names), since that is how she is most commonly referred to? (and that's how most of the articles link here) Niteowlneils 20:40, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Why isn't it written plain and bold who her parents are?
moved down here, for want of a better place James F. (talk) 01:44, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)]
Can someone post a piece on what her actual surname is... "Windsor" is the most common answer, but there is good cause to debate this as she married a man not called "Windsor".
Her surname is Mountbatten-Windsor. Her House, however, is the House of Windsor, jguk 09:08, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The name of the royal House and Family is Windsor. Whether the Queen, personally, has a surname is debatable, and if she does, it's an open question whether it's Windsor, Mountbatten, or Mountbatten-Windsor. By a decree of 1960, her descendants in the male line who are not royals (at this writing, no one of that description has been born) will bear the surname Mountbatten-Windsor. That seems to imply that her children's surname, if they have one, is Windsor, but when Princess Anne was married to Capt. Phillips her surname was listed on the marriage certificate as "Mountbatten-Windsor". (That seems to indicate that the royal family are a little unclear about this issue themselves.) Under normal circumstances, royal persons don't use surnames; one would not refer to the Queen as "Elizabeth Windsor" or "Mrs. Mountbatten." -WRBarrett, 20 Feb 2005
The Queen has no surname, as she is the Queen. I know many will not accept this, but it is technically true. And as Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, we write the truth and nothing but the truth! So while she has officially no surname, the name of the current Royal House in the UK, and Her Majesty's other Realms, is simply Windsor. The surname Mountbatten-Windsor is however used by some of her descendants. See the article relating to it! David, England :)
The Queens surname should be Saxe-Coburg-Gotha Mountbatten but her grandfather King George V changed it to Windsor due to the first world war, he didn't want morale to fall because of his german second name so he changed it. Legally the Queen is Called Elizabeth Mountbatten-Windsor taking Price Philips Surname aswell as Windsor.TJ
There are a number of things in this article which I believe undermine its neutrality, or objectivity. I am only going to list a few of these.
There are other things, but I believe this list is long as it is, and something to begin with.
On any other article... perhaps even the Pope or the Dalai lama's, such a one sided screed would be considered POV. All it really does is praise the woman, and make her look like some kind of demi-goddess.
To quote Oliver Cromwell, let's have a portrait of her warts and all, not something that could almost be written by one of her palace employees.
"I agree with David - the "list" is an attempt to distort the article into a republican view of EII"
Better an article which reflects BOTH republican and monarchist points of view, than one which is merely a hagiography.
(Actually looking at the list, I see little which specifically reflects a republican POV other than the comment about the Australian referendum).
"She was the first British monarch to be out of the country at the moment of succession."
That doesn't sound likely to me, given the cases where the successor to the throne was under threat of death from the current incumbent. Is anyone sure this is the case, or have a counterexample? DJ Clayworth 18:57, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Prior to George I, England has the examples of Charles II (if you consider him to have succeeded in 1649), James I (who was in Scotland), Edward I (who was on Crusade), Richard I (who was in France), at least. Scotland has James I (who was a prisoner in England). john k 20:26, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
It's misleading to title the page dedicated to Queen Elizabeth II as "Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom".
This causes readers to believe that the British Queen reigns over the other Commonwealth Realms, when in reality Elizabeth II is queen of one Crown over 16 seperate, but equal, Realms-- the United Kingdom included. Therefore she can also be titled as Elizabeth II of Canada, Elizabeth II of New Zealand, Elizabeth II of Jamaica, and so on.
The information on the page itself makes clear that the Queen is not simply Queen of the UK (as do other pages such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarchy_in_Canada), therefore the tile of the page should reflect this. gbambino
It is in accordance with no. 4, but I see Gbambino's point that no.4 does not work well for Commonwealth/British Empire monarchs since Victoria's time, say, because they were/are queens/kings of many other realms too. It seems only right that we respect that The Queen is the Queen of many nations, not just the United Kingdom. I wonder whether renaming this article "Elizabeth II" or "Queen Elizabeth II" (and similarly for all monarchs since Victoria) may not be more sensible. However, this should be proposed as a change in policy on Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (names and titles) - if it is so proposed, I'll support it, jguk 10:55, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
There are no other Elizabeth II's that I am aware of. However, I believe this is a bad idea, and one which is unnecessary. While Elizabeth II is certainly queen of many nations, to say they are equal is silly. Not only does the Queen reside in the UK, but she is referred to as the Queen of the UK when she is everywhere except in one of her fifteen other realms. That is to say, she is the Queen of Canada in Canada, but even in Canada she is the Queen of the UK when she visits the United States. As such, privileging the UK title seems proper. john k 16:30, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
By the way, doing it for all monarchs since Victoria is simply a terrible idea. George V, for instance, shares his name with other rulers - notably his first cousin twice removed, who was King of Hanover from 1851-1866. And just "Victoria" is also awful. From 1877 to 1922, the only titles used were "King/Queen of the UK" and "Emperor/Empress of India". The India title was explicitly used only in India. So UK is appropriate here. In 1922, the style changed, and you have King of Great Britain, Ireland, and the Overseas Dominions" or some such. This remains to the current queen's coronation. The monarchs who ruled only in this period - Edward VIII and George VI - have some argument that they should be "Edward VIII of Great Britain and Ireland" - but I think even this is silly. The basic fact is that the UK is the principal realm of Elizabeth II and her predecessors, and it is simply not POV for the article title to indicate this. john k 16:35, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarification on use of commonwealth titles. Nevertheless, the Queen lives in the UK, and this crown is quite clearly the preeminent one, de facto if not de jure. The UK, for instance, has in effect the power to abolish the monarchy for all the other commonwealth realms if it wants to abolish the monarchy, but the commonwealth realms have no corresponding ability. At any rate, it is standard practice to use the first of several technically equal realms, only, in article titles. For example, the Stuarts who ruled over both England and Scotland are at Charles I of England, not Charles I of England, Scotland, and Ireland. The early Hanoverians are at George I of Great Britain, not George I of Great Britain and Ireland. In spite of the numerous titles of the Habsburg Kings of Spain, none of which was "King of Spain", they are all at Philip II of Spain, not Philip II of Castile, Aragon, Valencia, Navarre, Portugal, Naples, Sicily, and Sardinia. We have Henry IV of France, not Henry IV of France and Navarre. We have Christian IV of Denmark, not Christian IV of Denmark and Norway, and Oscar I of Sweden not Oscar I of Sweden and Norway. Perhaps it should be clarified that in cases where someone is a monarch of several countries at once, only the first is to be listed in article titles, if this is not already done. At any rate, Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom is perfectly in line with our practices on all these other monarchs. As to Bhumibol Adulyadej, his name is obviously unique in a way that those of European monarchs are not - my understanding was that these naming conventions only apply to western monarchs. john k 18:42, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Gbambino, you are correct that, de jure if Britain were to become a republic, each of the other commonwealth realms would be able to retain the monarchy if it so chose. However, de facto, this would mean the end of the monarchy everywhere - the monarchy could not plausibly continue in Canada if the Queen were no longer Queen of the UK. I also was not saying that constitutionally the commonwealth realms were inferior to the British crown. I was saying, and am still saying, that the British crown is the most prominent of her several titles, and that the fact that she lives in Britain is completely immaterial. You have not at all addressed my point about previous personal unions, and use of only one state. Oscar I of Sweden, Christian IV of Denmark, James I of England, George I of Great Britain, Henry IV of France, all conform to Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom - none of these deny that these people were not equally Kings of Norway, Norway, Scotland and Ireland, Ireland, and Navarre, respectively. But they are commonly referred to by the "first" country they are king of, and there's nothing wrong with titling our articles in this way. john k 23:16, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I do not see any reason why Canada could not remain its own monarchy, we've been doing it for quite some time now and have yet to encounter any problems. gbambino is correct (in everything he says), this article is obviously misnamed. -- Maxwell C. 00:32, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
So there's communist revolution in England, the Queen and her whole family are executed by the Bolshevik rebels...does Canada then take in the exiled Lord Frederick Windsor and give him a palace to live him and let him be king? Of course they wouldn't. They'd just abolish the monarchy, give the powers of the monarch/governor-general to an indirectly elected president, and be done with it. The only reason the commonwealth monarchies can exist is because Britain foots the bill for the monarchy, and hosts the monarch. If the monarch got kicked out of the UK, the situation of the commonwealth realms would be deeply awkward. Also, think about if the British amended the Act of Settlement - they won't do it, I think, but if they did, and it appeared to make a difference, all the Commonwealth realms would have to change their succession laws, because they don't want to end up with a monarch who is not the British monarch. There is the fiction of equality, and de jure equality, but de facto Britain has a degree of control over the situation that the commonwealth realms do not have.
I would also ask all of you supporting the move to explain why you don't care about Henry IV of France, Oscar I of Sweden, Christian IV of Denmark, James I of England, George I of Great Britain, and so forth? Doesn't Frederick I of Prussia give to much emphasis to his title of King in Prussia, and suggest that he was not equally Imperial Elector, Margrave of Brandenburg, Duke of Magdeburg, Duke of Kleve, &c &c &c? Doesn't referring to Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor unfairly denigrate the Castilians whose king he was? Or the people of Brussels, whom he ruled in his capacity as Duke of Brabant? Would not the Saxon people object to Augustus II of Poland's article not bearing any reference to him as their beloved Prince-Elector Frederick Augustus I? Shall we bow to the desire of Hungarians that Karl of Austria should indicate his status as King Karoly IV of Hungary? You continue to pretend that the commonwealth monarchies are a unique situation in history. But they are not. Hundreds of European monarchs have ruled over constitutionally distinct entities that had no connection besides the person of their ruler. In nearly all of these cases, we have chosen to put the article at Name Number of Principalstateruled. Henry IV of France and Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom are simply identical situations. Given that Henry IV is actually called "Henry of Navarre", there is probably a considerably stronger case for putting Navarre in his article title. But we don't do that, because this opens a floodgate to more and more irritating article titles. john k 06:35, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
"I would also ask all of you supporting the move to explain why you don't care about Henry IV of France, Oscar I of Sweden, Christian IV of Denmark, James I of England, George I of Great Britain, and so forth?"
In part because it's garnered the attentions of Canadian monarchists.
http://members.boardhost.com/monarchist/msg/14450.html http://members.boardhost.com/monarchist/msg/14417.html
This post sums up their intent nicely:
"Maybe, as monarchists, we could use this to our advantage. Promote the monarchy through this self-editing on-line encyclopedia."
My contribution is perhaps not relevant to the article in question but already there are some pro-monarchy posts here from common contributors to the board referenced above. And yes, I'm a republican, but I don't want to see the neutral pov hijacked.
This debate is ridiculously pedantic. It would be completely impractical for us to have an article titled [[Elizabeth II of Antigua and Barbuda, Australia, The Bahamas, Barbados, Belize, Canada, Grenada, Jamaica, New Zealand, Papua New Guinea, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, The Solomon Islands, Tuvalu, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland]], as for the suggestion of Elizabeth II of the Commonwealth Realms that would be fine if she was actually known as that. It is not our role to coin new names or titles and as she is simply not known as "Elizabeth II of the Commonwealth Realms" it would be absurd for us to start calling her that here. That fact is she is best known as Queen of the UK and so the current article title is the most appropriate. The introduction of the article explains she is also Queen of x, y and z countries which fulfills the requirements of accuracy. AndyL 19:30, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
What gbambino overlooks is that even the Queen's Canadian title gives primacy to her role as British Queen for she is, in Canada, "Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Canada, and her other realms...". If being Queen of Canada is an afterthought in her Canadian title I don't think gbambino really has much of an argument in citing the so-called "Canadian" example. AndyL 22:34, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Wait five years. The next Australian PM, whether Liberal or Labor, will likely be a republican and the question of what to call the "Queen of Australia" will be moot. AndyL 00:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Why are you people unable to see that gbambino makes sense? The name IS obviously biased, and is shown from only ONE POV. This CLEARLY clashes with the wikipedia NPOV policy. As a sidenote, I really do not care about the other monarchs, as they are not currently reigning over my country. -- Maxwell C. 02:27, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
gbambino, you've complained a lot but you've yet to suggest an alternative title for the article. AndyL 03:31, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Incidentally, this "fork" of the article is not an appropriate way to make changes. Propose them here or simply edit the article itself because page histories are difficult to merge. — Dan | Talk 13:16, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I have also noted the unnaturally large contingent of republicans who hang out on the wikipedia, gbambino. -- Maxwell C. 01:45, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Ah, Maxwell C, another visitor from the Monarchist League of Canada maessage board, I presume. Anyeay, gambino, I must have missed it so please reiterate your proposal, how do you suggest the article be renamed? AndyL 04:41, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Her Brittanic Majesty (the correct title for outside the UK), officially has no surname.
Her maiden name is Sachsen Coburg und Gotha. This was changed during the First World War to Windsor, as German names were not the most popular at the time.
Prince Philip also changed his name when marrying the them Princess Elizabeth, to Mountbatten, the maiden name of his mother (The Mountbattens also changed their name in the First World War, from Battenburg). His birth name was Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Gluecksburg.
Without name changes, Her surname (if she were not Queen), would be Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Gluecksburg. Because of them, however, Her decendants (who do not inherit the throne) are called Mountbatten-Windsor.
Philip's mother was never named Mountbatten. She was Princess Alice of Battenberg at the time of her marriage fo Prince Andrew of Greece and Denmark. There is no particular reason to say that either "Sachsen Coburg und Gotha" or "Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg" is a surname. They are house names. Philip's cousin King Constantine, I believe, does not list a surname on his passport. The Glücksburg name is silly, in any case - it was superseded, at the very least, when the other Schleswig-Holstein line died out early in the last century, leaving the Glücksburg line as the only Schleswig-Holstein line in existence. Furthermore, one might say that it is inappropriate to use it for Christian IX's descendants, since they bear the higher title of Prince/ss of Denmark. The semi-fraudulent dynastic names of "Wettin" and "Oldenburg" are not really surnames either - they are just names derived from the places ruled by those dynasties before they ruled their more famous places. The "House of Saxony" and "House of Denmark" make just as much sense. (And for Philip "House of Greece" would also be appropriate). For people bearing the title of Prince/Princess, "Windsor" and "Mountbatten-Windsor" are not surnames either - once again, they are house names. Only non-royal members of the house, like Lord Nicholas Windsor, can be considered to have surnames. john k 16:26, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Insert non-formatted text hereMy understanding is that the 1917 proclamation says that the house name is Windsor, and that male line descendants of George V who do not have a royal title will have the surname of Windsor. The others don't really have a surname, whatever pro forma requirements have to be gotten around. john k 06:37, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I've always wondered, does the queen have a passport? Seabhcán 15:07, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I'm not getting involved, but I'd just like to point out that User:Gbambino/Queen Elizabeth II (1926- present) seems to have been created as some sort of fork. sjorford :// 10:21, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I think we have 4 suggestions of where this page should go. Maybe we should see who likes what. I'm deliberately being positive and only having "supports" - and also suggesting users might wish to support more than one of the options below: jguk 17:18, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Supported by:
Supported by:
Supported by:
Supported by:
Why oh why can't we just stick to the conventions for royal titles and apply a consistent standard, rather than trying to impose individual practices. It is ridiculous to make this change for Elizabeth only - what about her father, uncle and grandfather for a start? Then there's the numerous personal unions cited above, to say nothing of those monarchs who's title included lands they didn't rule and so on. If there's a clear case and support for changing the convention then fair enough to change all the monarchs affected, but let's stop trying to make individual exceptions that have no clear reason to be unique. Timrollpickering 20:11, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
James F. (talk) 21:30, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Why isn't The Queen an option? That's what she is most commonly called in the UK. :p (being facetious here) Morwen - Talk 19:58, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Why isn't "Betsy Windsor" an option? -- MarkSweep 21:23, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Would anyone support listing this page on Wikipedia:Requests for comment? It might help reach a consensus over the naming of this article. Aoi 10:46, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
While the Isle's name is certainly "Man", the name given to its monarch is "Lord of Mann". This is corroborated by the Isle's official website, which is probably a more reliable resource on the subject than an American dictionary. — Dan | Talk 23:20, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
To start with
Which Prime Minister is this? I intend to remove this claim unless I can find substantation of this. Morwen - Talk 17:29, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Other claims this article makes that ought to be verifiable, and ought to have more specifics (assuming they aren't just hearsay)...
I presume the "mutual sporting interest" is cricket. Which leader? Where does this come from? I have Major's autobiography and don't remember this, but will check.
Where does this come from? Who did she make the pointed reference to? In a public statement? Was this a press release, or what?
Who?
What rumoured infidelities? Who rumours them? How did Elizabeth and Philip meet, anyway?
Is this referring to the debacle over the Queen Mothers' funeral? (I can barely remember what that row was about...)
Other things
Morwen - Talk 12:02, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Could have been taken from "Hello" magazine. Refdoc 22:38, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This article has said for a while that QE2 is the most widely travelled head of state. Just now an anon has added "behind Pope John Paul II" - does anyone know which of these is true? I've not reverted for now but I'll make a note on the RC patrol pages. Thryduulf 20:23, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Pope John Paul II is not, at the moment, a head of state. Are we talking about "most widely travelled of all time" or "most widely travelled current head of state"? john k 21:01, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I noticed (in a photo in the Canada article) that the the Queen wears the Order of Military Merit award (likely only when she's in Canada). No slight intended, but I'm curious: did the Queen earn this or does she wear it because of the position she holds? It is apparently "an award issued by Canada to members of the Canadian Forces whom have demonstrated dedication and devotion beyond the call of duty." I know she's the Sovereign of this Order, but then I would assume she's the Sovereign of essentially every order in the Canadian Forces, so maybe a more interesting question is what awards or insignias does she wear and why? -- Ds13 20:17, 2005 Apr 12 (UTC)
Her Majesty wears these honours not because she earned them but because she is the
Fount of honour and she issues the honours, But in saying this Her Majesty did serve in the British army during Wrold war 2 so she may have earned it.
Her Majesty is indeed sovereign of the Order of Military Merit, as she is Sovereign of the Order of Canada -- Ibagli 23:02, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Oh how "bitty" and "messy" this artcle is beging to look; recent changes make it look awlful and so un-planed. Also i am not happy with the length being changed.
Well, one thing that I believe should be emphasized: Her Majesty is a very beautiful woman, indeed.
I'm not joking, I'm serious.
And she's very motherly.
(I'm not English, I'm Italian.)
God bless and save her. This is my serious prayer.
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