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This is described by the listings people as "Country house. Mid C17 farmhouse on site of mediaeval manor house (C14 masonry in north west wing) greatly enlarged by Detmar Blow...", which is not really the same as a "Jacobean manor house" (James I died in 1625). here Johnbod ( talk) 16:34, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
David was an eloquent and intelligent but difficult woman who inspired both fear and adoration. She had many, many friends but could be a monster. She suffered a stroke that incredibly led to a loss of the sense of taste and affected her libido. This heralded the troubled final years before her 1992 death at her Chelsea home, where she had lived for forty years.
This paragraph sounds awfully POV to me. Are there any sources for it? Perodicticus 09:37, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
Do we know when exactly Elizabeth David had her stroke? FB
Have removed speculative sentence on both ED's ancestry and her Uncle, Roland Gwynne. The Gwynne's owned land in Ireland (see the biography of ED by Lisa Cheney), but there is no evidence to suggest that they were necessarily Irish. Gwynne is also a distinctly Welsh name. Roland Gwynne certainly knew Bodkin Adams well (they were good friends), and he was certainly homosexual, but there is no direct evidence to link them as lovers. Cullen merely suggests the possibility, and such a suggestion is too speculative for Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.93.14.55 ( talk) 16:00, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
Lisa Chaney's and Artemis Cooper's biographies of ED (and also Jessica Douglas-Home's of Violet Gordon Woodhouse) plainly discuss the Dutch, Scottish and, yes, Sumatran ancestry of ED. The Dutch and Sumatran lines came through her paternal grandmother's line, the Scottish through her maternal line. I have referenced Lisa Chaney's biography at the appropriate point, but one could add the other two as well. Further clarification can be found at the Purvis family genealogical website, http://www.purvisfamilytree.com/, which appears to be an excellent resource for elements of this family. The Dutch, Scottish and Sumatran lines are, from a genetic viewpoint, equally or more influential than the Irish ancestry that Cullen writes about, and thus should not be omitted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.93.14.55 ( talk) 17:14, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
The Purvis website was merely a useful link that I though might be helpful. It does appear to be self-published, but much of the genealogical data on the site relevant to ED can be pulled from the UK Public Records office online. Anyway, this is slightly moot, as plenty of this kind of research was done for the Chaney, Cooper and Douglas-Home books. Citing them is enough. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.93.14.55 ( talk) 17:29, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
I thought she wanted to be known as a home economist, not a chef. ACEOREVIVED ( talk) 22:24, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
I am sceptical about her having to recommend buying olive oil from the pharmacy. French Country Cooking p 219, in a chapter on store ingredients entitled The Larder, recommends San Remo brand olive oil, which it notes can be bought from Delmonico's in Old Compton Street. The next entry refers to Almond Oil, which it says can be purchased "at chemists'". I wonder if some conflation has occurred here.
Later, in her 1987 introduction to Italian Food David recalled that "The purchase of a supply of olive oil, [...] entailed a bus trip to the Italian provision shops of Soho", not the chemist. William Avery ( talk) 11:55, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
WA: Not everyone lived within a bus ride of Soho and there a recommendation as to where to get even the most purified and bland olive oil woud have been welcome to those fruitlessly searching for ingredients. Elizabeth David was "comfortably financed" and had upper-class connections to supply her with produce from the country. She could likewise afford to buy anything she wished to eat - including numerous experments to get a dish right - and to import for herself stuff like olive oil and wine direct from the continent at a time when this was prohibitively expensive. But she was aware that few had this option and that for the vast majority of her readership (which was predominantly upper-middle-class and youthful), ear-syringing gloop from the chemist was the best you could do.
The food available retail in the UK is taken for granted today. It is a very modern phenomena: up until the 80s the range of food available to your average Brit, urban or rural, was very narrow and it wasn't until most had access to big supermarkets (because of the explosion in out-of-town shopping in the early 80s) that stuff like olive oil became a standard food item rather than an esoteric luxury. Those supermarkets that existed before this were invariably an adaptation of 1 or 2 average-sized grocer's shop and stocked not much more than the usual post-war foods. The large chains were nothing like the size they are now and although they did stock a wider variety of food it was nothing like what is seen today.
I know it seems incredible to those born after the mid 80s but up until then, most urban Brits shopped at the local 'parade' where the butcher, bakers, grocers, (and until the late 60s, dairies) etc provided for most needs. For rural dwellers, there would be a single village shop and shop's vans from the town doing rounds with their meat or fish or greengrocery. This extended to things other than food - the local ironmonger and haberdasher supplied nails an socks although there would probably be an big annual shop in the nearest city or provincial centre, maybe at a department store. For families, this would be usually in late August, to get shoes and school stuff etc.
Anyway, olive oil was - until well into the 80s and probably beyond - considered by many older Brits to be something you used to syringe ears and lubricate bowels with and it was indeed sold by Boots, Timothy White's etc. I know that if you went on holiday to Cornwall in the 70s (where the food shops - and the standard of dining out generally - were then quite possibly the worst in the UK during its worst ever modern culinary period other than immediately post-war) and wanted to buy olive oil to make a dressing for the crabs or mussels you'd picked up from the picturesque but sewage-washed beaches ("Why don't the locals eat this stuff?" my parents would muse), then unless you bought your own, that's where you got it from.
Tl:dr version: We fried Spam in lard (pocked with burnt bits) and boiled spuds to grey lumps and smeared them with marge and considered ourselves well fed. We knew no better. Plutonium27 ( talk) 23:48, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
I've added info, refs and images (quadrupling the size of the article), and put it up for peer review. All comments gratefully received. It would be good to get the great and good Mrs D on the front page. Tim riley ( talk) 16:43, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
This article should not be tagged with "place" projects like London and France. It is not about places. The other tags currently on the article seem reasonably related to the subject. -- Ssilvers ( talk) 14:02, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
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Reviewing |
Reviewer: Cirt ( talk • contribs) 00:42, 19 May 2013 (UTC) I will review this article. — Cirt ( talk) 00:42, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
This article's Good Article promotion has been put on hold. During review, some issues were discovered that can be resolved without a major re-write. This is how the article, as of May 27, 2013, compares against the six good article criteria:
NOTE: Please respond, below, and not interspersed in the GA Review comments, above. Thank you!
Please address these matters soon and then leave a note here showing how they have been resolved. After 48 hours the article should be reviewed again. If these issues are not addressed within 7 days, the article may be failed without further notice. Thank you for your work so far. — Cirt ( talk) 22:39, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
I think the above covers all the points you raise. Happy to expand, if wanted. Tim riley ( talk) 09:40, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
GA Review passed. Thanks very much for such helpful responsiveness to the points raised, above. Cheers, — Cirt ( talk) 16:16, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
Can someone rectify this mistake in the article? I'm not sure what it is meant to say - but I am certain that Elizabeth David did not start WWII.
"She started the War having to flee the German occupation."
"Fleeing the German occupation at the beginning of World War II"
89.243.57.167 ( talk) 23:42, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
ED was a heavy drinker throughout her life and some sources suggest that the last decade of her life was a period of uncontrolled alcoholic decline. There is no mention of this in the article, which comes across as distinctly reverential. ED's gastronomic importance would not be diminished by an honest and open description of her darker side. -- Ef80 ( talk) 11:40, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
This is described by the listings people as "Country house. Mid C17 farmhouse on site of mediaeval manor house (C14 masonry in north west wing) greatly enlarged by Detmar Blow...", which is not really the same as a "Jacobean manor house" (James I died in 1625). here Johnbod ( talk) 16:34, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
@ Johnbod: This entry by Historic England has some considerable detail on the property. It seems that it was in the ownership of Mary Priccilla Gwynne-Longland, the eldest daughter of Rupert Gwynne and sister of Elizabeth. She died in 2002 according to this. Her eldest daughter, Sabrina Harcourt-Smith (the mother of Ed Harcourt) is the current owner. Karst ( talk) 12:52, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
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I've written a bit about the way the bibliography suggests her influence came later than it did in reality. This is because she was on radio and grainy old tv long before the books were published. See the full spiel on talk:Elizabeth David bibliography. Macdonald-ross ( talk) 19:13, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User:SchroCat has twice reverted my alteration of "had an impact on" to "influenced" and the following colon/lowercase letter to a semicolon/capital letter. He referred to my version as "awful", cited WP:BRD (with no indication of irony) and asked me to comment on this page. Well...
To "have an impact on" public opinion is a lazy and imprecise metaphor, seeing as "impact" is a physical event and public opinion is non-physical. Besides, what was the "impact"? Did David increase/decrease/change the discussion, or did she, um, influence it? It was clearly the latter, so why not say so, instead of using a cliched and less exact phrase? As for the semicolon, it's not a right/wrong issue of grammar, but a semicolon better separates two sentences, while keeping the semantic link between the two statements. A colon implies that one clause is lesser, but we have two statements, the first is a summary and the second is a detailed exemplification. Either would stand alone, without the other: hence, a semicolon is more appropriate.
Ewen ( talk) 17:59, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
Much as I congratulate you on avoiding the key question: In what way is her "influence" better described as an "impact"? Ewen ( talk) 19:52, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
Impact and influence are synonyms. There is no reason to simply impose your preferred term for one that is already in an article, especially an FA. Certainly, once you make a suggested change and one of the article's regular editors resist the change, WP:BRD requires you to go to the Talk page to see if you can raise a new WP:CONSENSUS, rather than simply edit war for your preferred version. It is clearly nonsense to say that impact suggests a negative impact any more than that influence suggest a negative influence. Your campaign to make this change to your preferred phrase is simply a power play: “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less. ... The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that's all.” -- Ssilvers ( talk) 20:50, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
you started throwing the weight of numbers around with your references": nope. Nothing about weight of numbers of references, but the quality of references. There is a massive dfference between the two, and you need to try and understand that: there is no objectivity in throwing numbers without looking at what they actually show, and the raw numbers show absolutely nothing. It's comparing apples and pandas. "
at no point have you, or anyone else, said why "influenced" is not an improvement on "had an impact on": nope. several people have provided examples, source and support as to why she did more than "influence" food culture. You have provided nothing more than IDONTLIKEIT to try and change the status quo as part of an ongoing campaign you have, in which you know nothing about a subject, but are hapy to change the phrase without looking into sources or circumstances. - SchroCat ( talk) 21:46, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
Arithmetic isn't Ewen's strong suit any more than Eng Lang is. I cannot quickly count how many times we have explained to him that nobody is required to justify the existing wording, but that he is required to justify and gain support for a change. In the absence of any hint of that his editing is now becoming a distraction bordering on disruption, it seems to me. 21:59, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
SchroCat, you said "had an impact on" was more concise than "influenced", which flies in the face of the meaning of "concise". Similarly, you admit that "impact" has multiple meanings, whereas "influence" has one, so if I don't hear a convincing argument for your choice of words being clearer, maybe it's because it is not clearer at all? Of course you want to close the thread - go right ahead and stop writing, that will do it - but it still lacks an answer to my points. Ewen ( talk) 23:34, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
This is described by the listings people as "Country house. Mid C17 farmhouse on site of mediaeval manor house (C14 masonry in north west wing) greatly enlarged by Detmar Blow...", which is not really the same as a "Jacobean manor house" (James I died in 1625). here Johnbod ( talk) 16:34, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
David was an eloquent and intelligent but difficult woman who inspired both fear and adoration. She had many, many friends but could be a monster. She suffered a stroke that incredibly led to a loss of the sense of taste and affected her libido. This heralded the troubled final years before her 1992 death at her Chelsea home, where she had lived for forty years.
This paragraph sounds awfully POV to me. Are there any sources for it? Perodicticus 09:37, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
Do we know when exactly Elizabeth David had her stroke? FB
Have removed speculative sentence on both ED's ancestry and her Uncle, Roland Gwynne. The Gwynne's owned land in Ireland (see the biography of ED by Lisa Cheney), but there is no evidence to suggest that they were necessarily Irish. Gwynne is also a distinctly Welsh name. Roland Gwynne certainly knew Bodkin Adams well (they were good friends), and he was certainly homosexual, but there is no direct evidence to link them as lovers. Cullen merely suggests the possibility, and such a suggestion is too speculative for Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.93.14.55 ( talk) 16:00, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
Lisa Chaney's and Artemis Cooper's biographies of ED (and also Jessica Douglas-Home's of Violet Gordon Woodhouse) plainly discuss the Dutch, Scottish and, yes, Sumatran ancestry of ED. The Dutch and Sumatran lines came through her paternal grandmother's line, the Scottish through her maternal line. I have referenced Lisa Chaney's biography at the appropriate point, but one could add the other two as well. Further clarification can be found at the Purvis family genealogical website, http://www.purvisfamilytree.com/, which appears to be an excellent resource for elements of this family. The Dutch, Scottish and Sumatran lines are, from a genetic viewpoint, equally or more influential than the Irish ancestry that Cullen writes about, and thus should not be omitted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.93.14.55 ( talk) 17:14, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
The Purvis website was merely a useful link that I though might be helpful. It does appear to be self-published, but much of the genealogical data on the site relevant to ED can be pulled from the UK Public Records office online. Anyway, this is slightly moot, as plenty of this kind of research was done for the Chaney, Cooper and Douglas-Home books. Citing them is enough. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.93.14.55 ( talk) 17:29, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
I thought she wanted to be known as a home economist, not a chef. ACEOREVIVED ( talk) 22:24, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
I am sceptical about her having to recommend buying olive oil from the pharmacy. French Country Cooking p 219, in a chapter on store ingredients entitled The Larder, recommends San Remo brand olive oil, which it notes can be bought from Delmonico's in Old Compton Street. The next entry refers to Almond Oil, which it says can be purchased "at chemists'". I wonder if some conflation has occurred here.
Later, in her 1987 introduction to Italian Food David recalled that "The purchase of a supply of olive oil, [...] entailed a bus trip to the Italian provision shops of Soho", not the chemist. William Avery ( talk) 11:55, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
WA: Not everyone lived within a bus ride of Soho and there a recommendation as to where to get even the most purified and bland olive oil woud have been welcome to those fruitlessly searching for ingredients. Elizabeth David was "comfortably financed" and had upper-class connections to supply her with produce from the country. She could likewise afford to buy anything she wished to eat - including numerous experments to get a dish right - and to import for herself stuff like olive oil and wine direct from the continent at a time when this was prohibitively expensive. But she was aware that few had this option and that for the vast majority of her readership (which was predominantly upper-middle-class and youthful), ear-syringing gloop from the chemist was the best you could do.
The food available retail in the UK is taken for granted today. It is a very modern phenomena: up until the 80s the range of food available to your average Brit, urban or rural, was very narrow and it wasn't until most had access to big supermarkets (because of the explosion in out-of-town shopping in the early 80s) that stuff like olive oil became a standard food item rather than an esoteric luxury. Those supermarkets that existed before this were invariably an adaptation of 1 or 2 average-sized grocer's shop and stocked not much more than the usual post-war foods. The large chains were nothing like the size they are now and although they did stock a wider variety of food it was nothing like what is seen today.
I know it seems incredible to those born after the mid 80s but up until then, most urban Brits shopped at the local 'parade' where the butcher, bakers, grocers, (and until the late 60s, dairies) etc provided for most needs. For rural dwellers, there would be a single village shop and shop's vans from the town doing rounds with their meat or fish or greengrocery. This extended to things other than food - the local ironmonger and haberdasher supplied nails an socks although there would probably be an big annual shop in the nearest city or provincial centre, maybe at a department store. For families, this would be usually in late August, to get shoes and school stuff etc.
Anyway, olive oil was - until well into the 80s and probably beyond - considered by many older Brits to be something you used to syringe ears and lubricate bowels with and it was indeed sold by Boots, Timothy White's etc. I know that if you went on holiday to Cornwall in the 70s (where the food shops - and the standard of dining out generally - were then quite possibly the worst in the UK during its worst ever modern culinary period other than immediately post-war) and wanted to buy olive oil to make a dressing for the crabs or mussels you'd picked up from the picturesque but sewage-washed beaches ("Why don't the locals eat this stuff?" my parents would muse), then unless you bought your own, that's where you got it from.
Tl:dr version: We fried Spam in lard (pocked with burnt bits) and boiled spuds to grey lumps and smeared them with marge and considered ourselves well fed. We knew no better. Plutonium27 ( talk) 23:48, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
I've added info, refs and images (quadrupling the size of the article), and put it up for peer review. All comments gratefully received. It would be good to get the great and good Mrs D on the front page. Tim riley ( talk) 16:43, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
This article should not be tagged with "place" projects like London and France. It is not about places. The other tags currently on the article seem reasonably related to the subject. -- Ssilvers ( talk) 14:02, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Cirt ( talk • contribs) 00:42, 19 May 2013 (UTC) I will review this article. — Cirt ( talk) 00:42, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
This article's Good Article promotion has been put on hold. During review, some issues were discovered that can be resolved without a major re-write. This is how the article, as of May 27, 2013, compares against the six good article criteria:
NOTE: Please respond, below, and not interspersed in the GA Review comments, above. Thank you!
Please address these matters soon and then leave a note here showing how they have been resolved. After 48 hours the article should be reviewed again. If these issues are not addressed within 7 days, the article may be failed without further notice. Thank you for your work so far. — Cirt ( talk) 22:39, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
I think the above covers all the points you raise. Happy to expand, if wanted. Tim riley ( talk) 09:40, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
GA Review passed. Thanks very much for such helpful responsiveness to the points raised, above. Cheers, — Cirt ( talk) 16:16, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
Can someone rectify this mistake in the article? I'm not sure what it is meant to say - but I am certain that Elizabeth David did not start WWII.
"She started the War having to flee the German occupation."
"Fleeing the German occupation at the beginning of World War II"
89.243.57.167 ( talk) 23:42, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
ED was a heavy drinker throughout her life and some sources suggest that the last decade of her life was a period of uncontrolled alcoholic decline. There is no mention of this in the article, which comes across as distinctly reverential. ED's gastronomic importance would not be diminished by an honest and open description of her darker side. -- Ef80 ( talk) 11:40, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
This is described by the listings people as "Country house. Mid C17 farmhouse on site of mediaeval manor house (C14 masonry in north west wing) greatly enlarged by Detmar Blow...", which is not really the same as a "Jacobean manor house" (James I died in 1625). here Johnbod ( talk) 16:34, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
@ Johnbod: This entry by Historic England has some considerable detail on the property. It seems that it was in the ownership of Mary Priccilla Gwynne-Longland, the eldest daughter of Rupert Gwynne and sister of Elizabeth. She died in 2002 according to this. Her eldest daughter, Sabrina Harcourt-Smith (the mother of Ed Harcourt) is the current owner. Karst ( talk) 12:52, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Elizabeth David. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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I've written a bit about the way the bibliography suggests her influence came later than it did in reality. This is because she was on radio and grainy old tv long before the books were published. See the full spiel on talk:Elizabeth David bibliography. Macdonald-ross ( talk) 19:13, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User:SchroCat has twice reverted my alteration of "had an impact on" to "influenced" and the following colon/lowercase letter to a semicolon/capital letter. He referred to my version as "awful", cited WP:BRD (with no indication of irony) and asked me to comment on this page. Well...
To "have an impact on" public opinion is a lazy and imprecise metaphor, seeing as "impact" is a physical event and public opinion is non-physical. Besides, what was the "impact"? Did David increase/decrease/change the discussion, or did she, um, influence it? It was clearly the latter, so why not say so, instead of using a cliched and less exact phrase? As for the semicolon, it's not a right/wrong issue of grammar, but a semicolon better separates two sentences, while keeping the semantic link between the two statements. A colon implies that one clause is lesser, but we have two statements, the first is a summary and the second is a detailed exemplification. Either would stand alone, without the other: hence, a semicolon is more appropriate.
Ewen ( talk) 17:59, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
Much as I congratulate you on avoiding the key question: In what way is her "influence" better described as an "impact"? Ewen ( talk) 19:52, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
Impact and influence are synonyms. There is no reason to simply impose your preferred term for one that is already in an article, especially an FA. Certainly, once you make a suggested change and one of the article's regular editors resist the change, WP:BRD requires you to go to the Talk page to see if you can raise a new WP:CONSENSUS, rather than simply edit war for your preferred version. It is clearly nonsense to say that impact suggests a negative impact any more than that influence suggest a negative influence. Your campaign to make this change to your preferred phrase is simply a power play: “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less. ... The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that's all.” -- Ssilvers ( talk) 20:50, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
you started throwing the weight of numbers around with your references": nope. Nothing about weight of numbers of references, but the quality of references. There is a massive dfference between the two, and you need to try and understand that: there is no objectivity in throwing numbers without looking at what they actually show, and the raw numbers show absolutely nothing. It's comparing apples and pandas. "
at no point have you, or anyone else, said why "influenced" is not an improvement on "had an impact on": nope. several people have provided examples, source and support as to why she did more than "influence" food culture. You have provided nothing more than IDONTLIKEIT to try and change the status quo as part of an ongoing campaign you have, in which you know nothing about a subject, but are hapy to change the phrase without looking into sources or circumstances. - SchroCat ( talk) 21:46, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
Arithmetic isn't Ewen's strong suit any more than Eng Lang is. I cannot quickly count how many times we have explained to him that nobody is required to justify the existing wording, but that he is required to justify and gain support for a change. In the absence of any hint of that his editing is now becoming a distraction bordering on disruption, it seems to me. 21:59, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
SchroCat, you said "had an impact on" was more concise than "influenced", which flies in the face of the meaning of "concise". Similarly, you admit that "impact" has multiple meanings, whereas "influence" has one, so if I don't hear a convincing argument for your choice of words being clearer, maybe it's because it is not clearer at all? Of course you want to close the thread - go right ahead and stop writing, that will do it - but it still lacks an answer to my points. Ewen ( talk) 23:34, 2 June 2018 (UTC)