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shouldn't we have her quoted reguarding Darwins supposed conversion?
Most of the Elizabeth Hope page is dedicated to the The Lady Hope Story because of it's prominence, but sadly a lot of background on the woman and her character, which is vital to the readers perspective of the story, has been omitted.
I found this statement strange after reading further: "The story remains a popular urban legend". Dr Paul Marston's article lists four different sources to back up the link between the Elizabeth Hope and the "The Lady Hope Story", so it certainly appears that the story is a disputed fact at worst; to characterise it as an urban ledgend appears to be a strong POV supporting the Darwin's family denial.
I expect the term "urban legend" refers to the suggestion that he "recanted his theory of evolution on his deathbed, and accepted Jesus Christ as a savior", but after reading the "priginal text of the article", it clearly does not state either.
AFAICS "The Lady Hope Story" is the term given to the interpretation of the letter that implies Darwin recanted. I think the story should be moved onto a separate page so that it does not reflect badly on Lady Hope, who by all accounts appears to have been a good lady and this story was assumed to have been penned by her during her final years. It would be nice for this page to include more biographical content. Jayvdb 05:04, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
The 'Initial overview' section sounds rather biased, with talk of retreats etc. Any idea how to change it? -- Simon Coleman-Smith, Hants, UK
Robertwiddowson has added the following unsourced passage (which gives the appearance of having been copied from another source)
The entire passage has an argumentative tone which is unsuitable for an encyclopaedia article. It's full of conjecture. In addition, the inclusion of references suggests that it was copied from another source, making it at worst a copyvio and at best plagiarism. Guettarda 21:20, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
The article itself is more than a little argumentative. I was simply trying to flesh out the story. Interestingly, Lady Hope herself never claimed that Darwin came to faith in Jesus Christ, as is stated at the beginning of the article. User: Robertwiddowson, 5 December 2006
Image:Darwin Legend.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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This article is supposed to be a biography, but most of it is actually about the 'Darwin deathbed confession' story, and its subsequent controversy. That may be what Lady Hope is best known for, but it risks turning this into a coatrack article. Perhaps this section should be spun out into its own article (called Lady Hope story, or whatever), so this article can be kept as a biography. Robofish ( talk) 18:45, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
The article says, "...Hope told the story of her meeting with Darwin at a Bible conference held in Northfield, Massachusetts". Someone reading this could say, "What would Darwin be doing at a Bible conference?". Does anyone besides me think this should be reworded? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.72.189.69 ( talk) 14:18, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
By the way, if you want to search for the exact text, you might try just "Hope told the story of her meeting with Darwin at a Bible conference held in ". The hyperlinks on "Northfield" and "Massachusetts" seem to screw up exact searching. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.72.189.69 ( talk) 14:25, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
Daniel fabius has several times attempted to add uncited opinions by one Laurie Croft to this article. Croft seems to be an expert in beekeeping, and Elmwood Books does not seem to be a WP:RS.-- John Foxe ( talk) 02:34, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
Response to third opinion request: |
The question is whether "Darwin and Lady Hope: The Untold Story" is a reliable source. Reliability is judged by evaluating the work itself, the author, and the publisher. Each factor operates independently, and any one may affect either of the others. As more attention is given to fact-checking, legal vetting, and rigorousness of analysis, more reliability is conferred. Generally, a work is judged to be reliable if it comes from an author that is judged to be reliable, a publisher that is judged to be reliable, or both.
In this case, the publisher seems shaky at best. I've done a lot of scouting to try to find any information about Elmwood Books, and I've come up basically empty-handed. I've found that it has published at least four other books, but they are all authored by Croft. This suggests to me that Elmwood Books may be Croft's own imprint; if not, it still suggests that it is not a serious publishing house that can necessarily be trusted to thoroughly vet its works. Further, the author's credentials seem to leave a bit to be desired as well. On the one hand, I should acknowledge that Croft's expertise in bees does not disqualify him from being a reliable source, and OUP's implicit seal of approval in publishing a biographical entry he authored tends to give some weight to work. However, it appears that Croft has been crusading on this story for some time, and his writings suggest that he may not be approaching the issue completely dispassionately. His claims that Lady Hope's story must be true because genealogical records bear out other stories she told seems especially suspect. I don't have the book in hand, so I can't pass any judgments on it more specifically. However, given the sketchiness of its publisher and the potential bias of its author, I would judge this source to fail WP:RS. — Bdb484 (talk) 18:38, 19 June 2012 (UTC)— Bdb484 (talk) 18:49, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
(1) With respect to whether Elmwood Books, the publisher of DARWIN and LADY HOPE- THE UNTOLD STORY is a reliable publishing house I would respond by pointing out that it has published books on natural history and science that have been reviewed in THE TIMES of London, and in the OBSERVER newspaper, and numerous highly regarded scientific journals. For this small independent publishing house to have obtained such widespread review coverage must indicate that the editors of these journals and newspaper consider it to be a reliable source. On this basis it must also meet WP criteria for reliability. (2) Editor Bdb484 states that Croft, the author of DARWIN and LADY HOPE -THE UNTOLD STORY, has credentials that "leave a bit to be desired". I do not know how he could make this assertion. As I understand it Croft is the author of "The Handbook of Protein Sequence Analysis" which is a major reference work available in almost every university library and published by John Wiley. I have looked at some of the reviews of this major work (although now overtaken by electronic data) but at the time it was a significant and important academic reference work. If Croft was not a reliable academic would he have been published by John Wiley, or Oxford University Press? (3) Finally, and probably the most important point is that editor Bdb484 makes the statement (without reading Croft's book, I would point out) that he finds Croft's research on the genealogical evidence used by him to substantiate Lady Hope's claims "suspect". This clearly indicates that editor Bdb484 has not studied Moore's article in "Evangelicals and Science in Historical Perspective" for Moore uses the very same argument that Croft has used, however he fails to uncover the crucial genealogical records and comes to an incorrect conclusion as to the reliability and honesty of Lady Hope. Daniel fabius ( talk) 17:29, 26 June 2012 (UTC) |
Daniel fabius has attempted to add to the article the following paragraph, which I consider promotional. If the book itself lacks credibility as a reliable source, it gains nothing by being mentioned in the Examiner of Launceston, Tasmania.-- John Foxe ( talk) 15:57, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
More recently Noel Shaw has drawn attention to the recent work of Dr.L.R.Croft, a retired Oxford University biochemist. <ref> "HOPE that gave Darwin his FAITH" in "The Examiner Newspaper" of Tasmania, 23 June 2012 page 75.</ref> Shaw reports that Croft has spent some 20 years researching the Darwin/Lady Hope incident and in his book, "Darwin and Lady Hope -The Untold Story" has come to the conclusion that Lady Hope's account of Darwin's conversion was indeed truthful and accurate.<ref> "20 years of diligent research [by Croft] has restored her reputation." "The Examiner, 23 June 2012 page 75.</ref> The "Church of England Newspaper" has also reported Croft's claims. <ref> "The Church of England Newspaper" 10 June 2012 page E7.</ref> This report repeats Croft's claim that a great injustice has been done to Lady Hope, and that rather than being dishonest she was a woman of high integrity being admired for this by Lord Shaftesbury and Florence Nightingale. These claims are supported by Croft's research into the background of many of Lady Hope's other published anecdotes, when using the latest available genealogical records they are found to be completely truthful and very accurate. On this basis Croft argues that Lady Hope's claim as to Darwin's conversion is also accurate and truthful and that her account of her meeting with Darwin is without exaggeration or embellishment. <ref> L.R.Croft, "Darwin and Lady Hope -The Untold Story" (2012) pp. 110-126.</ref>
John Foxe has again removed information regarding the results of research carried out by Dr.L.R.Croft, previously of the University of Oxford. He states the Croft's book, "Darwin and Lady Hope - The Untold Story" "lacks credibility". On what grounds has he made this assertion, as he has not yet read the book? It is clear that John Foxe is determined that Croft's findings as to the integrity of Lady Hope and the truth of her claim that Charles Darwin converted to Christianity before he died should not be available to individuals who consult Wikipedia. This fact completely devalues Wikipedia as a source of information. Daniel fabius ( talk) 20:15, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was moved to Elizabeth Cotton, Lady Hope per my understanding of the discussion below. -- regentspark ( comment) 20:54, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
Elizabeth Hope → Lady Hope Story – (proposal was briefly changed to "Darwin deathbed conversion story" then back again). Proposed move per WP:BIO1E. All the sources in the article talk about her in the context of the story, and Google Books "Elizabeth Hope" Cotton (using her maiden name to filter out other results) returns only books written by her. These books do not appear to be notable based on lack of secondary sources. Various other searches, such as filtering based on her dates of birth/death or the title "Lady" instead of her maiden name, and using "-Darwin" where necessary, do not return other results on either Google Books or Google. Arc de Ciel ( talk) 16:39, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
Additional comment (added after some of the discussion below). Almost all of the biographical information is sourced to a single book, which according to the discussion above is probably not a reliable source. Arc de Ciel ( talk) 08:04, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
I read the piece linked, and there's nothing scholarly about it. It's just a ramble through miscellaneous sources that came to the author's attention. The piece even contains the embarrassing misinformation that Lady Hope told her tale to Dwight L. Moody, who died in 1899, fifteen years before he could have heard it.-- John Foxe ( talk) 12:43, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
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Why is the article titled "Elizabeth Cotton, Lady Hope", since she never used that form for her name or was known by it? She was already a public before her first marriage and published her Coffee book under her maiden name, Cotton. After she married her first husband, she stopped using her maiden name. I was wondering if the form used is acceptable under WP:NCP, since she never combined Cotton and Lady Hope for her name. Libertybison ( talk) 07:29, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
Ssilvers, there is a redirect entitled "Lady Hope" that leads directly to the evangelist Lady Hope's page. This is confusing for people searching for the actress and wife of Lord Francis Hope, May Yohé, especially those people who are more aware of her vaguely through the lore of the Hope Diamond and how it was lost from the Hope family through bankruptcy following their divorce. As far as I can tell those are the only two biographical articles which that phrase could be referring to, so a disambiguation page seems to be out of the question. That makes a hatnote necessary, especially on the evangelist's page, if somebody didn't know Yohe's maiden or stage names, or that she divorced Lord Francis and lost her title, and typed in "Lady Hope" in the search box seeking more biographical information on her. (Which was my situation.) Libertybison ( talk) 07:07, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
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shouldn't we have her quoted reguarding Darwins supposed conversion?
Most of the Elizabeth Hope page is dedicated to the The Lady Hope Story because of it's prominence, but sadly a lot of background on the woman and her character, which is vital to the readers perspective of the story, has been omitted.
I found this statement strange after reading further: "The story remains a popular urban legend". Dr Paul Marston's article lists four different sources to back up the link between the Elizabeth Hope and the "The Lady Hope Story", so it certainly appears that the story is a disputed fact at worst; to characterise it as an urban ledgend appears to be a strong POV supporting the Darwin's family denial.
I expect the term "urban legend" refers to the suggestion that he "recanted his theory of evolution on his deathbed, and accepted Jesus Christ as a savior", but after reading the "priginal text of the article", it clearly does not state either.
AFAICS "The Lady Hope Story" is the term given to the interpretation of the letter that implies Darwin recanted. I think the story should be moved onto a separate page so that it does not reflect badly on Lady Hope, who by all accounts appears to have been a good lady and this story was assumed to have been penned by her during her final years. It would be nice for this page to include more biographical content. Jayvdb 05:04, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
The 'Initial overview' section sounds rather biased, with talk of retreats etc. Any idea how to change it? -- Simon Coleman-Smith, Hants, UK
Robertwiddowson has added the following unsourced passage (which gives the appearance of having been copied from another source)
The entire passage has an argumentative tone which is unsuitable for an encyclopaedia article. It's full of conjecture. In addition, the inclusion of references suggests that it was copied from another source, making it at worst a copyvio and at best plagiarism. Guettarda 21:20, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
The article itself is more than a little argumentative. I was simply trying to flesh out the story. Interestingly, Lady Hope herself never claimed that Darwin came to faith in Jesus Christ, as is stated at the beginning of the article. User: Robertwiddowson, 5 December 2006
Image:Darwin Legend.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. BetacommandBot 00:59, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
This article is supposed to be a biography, but most of it is actually about the 'Darwin deathbed confession' story, and its subsequent controversy. That may be what Lady Hope is best known for, but it risks turning this into a coatrack article. Perhaps this section should be spun out into its own article (called Lady Hope story, or whatever), so this article can be kept as a biography. Robofish ( talk) 18:45, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
The article says, "...Hope told the story of her meeting with Darwin at a Bible conference held in Northfield, Massachusetts". Someone reading this could say, "What would Darwin be doing at a Bible conference?". Does anyone besides me think this should be reworded? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.72.189.69 ( talk) 14:18, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
By the way, if you want to search for the exact text, you might try just "Hope told the story of her meeting with Darwin at a Bible conference held in ". The hyperlinks on "Northfield" and "Massachusetts" seem to screw up exact searching. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.72.189.69 ( talk) 14:25, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
Daniel fabius has several times attempted to add uncited opinions by one Laurie Croft to this article. Croft seems to be an expert in beekeeping, and Elmwood Books does not seem to be a WP:RS.-- John Foxe ( talk) 02:34, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
Response to third opinion request: |
The question is whether "Darwin and Lady Hope: The Untold Story" is a reliable source. Reliability is judged by evaluating the work itself, the author, and the publisher. Each factor operates independently, and any one may affect either of the others. As more attention is given to fact-checking, legal vetting, and rigorousness of analysis, more reliability is conferred. Generally, a work is judged to be reliable if it comes from an author that is judged to be reliable, a publisher that is judged to be reliable, or both.
In this case, the publisher seems shaky at best. I've done a lot of scouting to try to find any information about Elmwood Books, and I've come up basically empty-handed. I've found that it has published at least four other books, but they are all authored by Croft. This suggests to me that Elmwood Books may be Croft's own imprint; if not, it still suggests that it is not a serious publishing house that can necessarily be trusted to thoroughly vet its works. Further, the author's credentials seem to leave a bit to be desired as well. On the one hand, I should acknowledge that Croft's expertise in bees does not disqualify him from being a reliable source, and OUP's implicit seal of approval in publishing a biographical entry he authored tends to give some weight to work. However, it appears that Croft has been crusading on this story for some time, and his writings suggest that he may not be approaching the issue completely dispassionately. His claims that Lady Hope's story must be true because genealogical records bear out other stories she told seems especially suspect. I don't have the book in hand, so I can't pass any judgments on it more specifically. However, given the sketchiness of its publisher and the potential bias of its author, I would judge this source to fail WP:RS. — Bdb484 (talk) 18:38, 19 June 2012 (UTC)— Bdb484 (talk) 18:49, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
(1) With respect to whether Elmwood Books, the publisher of DARWIN and LADY HOPE- THE UNTOLD STORY is a reliable publishing house I would respond by pointing out that it has published books on natural history and science that have been reviewed in THE TIMES of London, and in the OBSERVER newspaper, and numerous highly regarded scientific journals. For this small independent publishing house to have obtained such widespread review coverage must indicate that the editors of these journals and newspaper consider it to be a reliable source. On this basis it must also meet WP criteria for reliability. (2) Editor Bdb484 states that Croft, the author of DARWIN and LADY HOPE -THE UNTOLD STORY, has credentials that "leave a bit to be desired". I do not know how he could make this assertion. As I understand it Croft is the author of "The Handbook of Protein Sequence Analysis" which is a major reference work available in almost every university library and published by John Wiley. I have looked at some of the reviews of this major work (although now overtaken by electronic data) but at the time it was a significant and important academic reference work. If Croft was not a reliable academic would he have been published by John Wiley, or Oxford University Press? (3) Finally, and probably the most important point is that editor Bdb484 makes the statement (without reading Croft's book, I would point out) that he finds Croft's research on the genealogical evidence used by him to substantiate Lady Hope's claims "suspect". This clearly indicates that editor Bdb484 has not studied Moore's article in "Evangelicals and Science in Historical Perspective" for Moore uses the very same argument that Croft has used, however he fails to uncover the crucial genealogical records and comes to an incorrect conclusion as to the reliability and honesty of Lady Hope. Daniel fabius ( talk) 17:29, 26 June 2012 (UTC) |
Daniel fabius has attempted to add to the article the following paragraph, which I consider promotional. If the book itself lacks credibility as a reliable source, it gains nothing by being mentioned in the Examiner of Launceston, Tasmania.-- John Foxe ( talk) 15:57, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
More recently Noel Shaw has drawn attention to the recent work of Dr.L.R.Croft, a retired Oxford University biochemist. <ref> "HOPE that gave Darwin his FAITH" in "The Examiner Newspaper" of Tasmania, 23 June 2012 page 75.</ref> Shaw reports that Croft has spent some 20 years researching the Darwin/Lady Hope incident and in his book, "Darwin and Lady Hope -The Untold Story" has come to the conclusion that Lady Hope's account of Darwin's conversion was indeed truthful and accurate.<ref> "20 years of diligent research [by Croft] has restored her reputation." "The Examiner, 23 June 2012 page 75.</ref> The "Church of England Newspaper" has also reported Croft's claims. <ref> "The Church of England Newspaper" 10 June 2012 page E7.</ref> This report repeats Croft's claim that a great injustice has been done to Lady Hope, and that rather than being dishonest she was a woman of high integrity being admired for this by Lord Shaftesbury and Florence Nightingale. These claims are supported by Croft's research into the background of many of Lady Hope's other published anecdotes, when using the latest available genealogical records they are found to be completely truthful and very accurate. On this basis Croft argues that Lady Hope's claim as to Darwin's conversion is also accurate and truthful and that her account of her meeting with Darwin is without exaggeration or embellishment. <ref> L.R.Croft, "Darwin and Lady Hope -The Untold Story" (2012) pp. 110-126.</ref>
John Foxe has again removed information regarding the results of research carried out by Dr.L.R.Croft, previously of the University of Oxford. He states the Croft's book, "Darwin and Lady Hope - The Untold Story" "lacks credibility". On what grounds has he made this assertion, as he has not yet read the book? It is clear that John Foxe is determined that Croft's findings as to the integrity of Lady Hope and the truth of her claim that Charles Darwin converted to Christianity before he died should not be available to individuals who consult Wikipedia. This fact completely devalues Wikipedia as a source of information. Daniel fabius ( talk) 20:15, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was moved to Elizabeth Cotton, Lady Hope per my understanding of the discussion below. -- regentspark ( comment) 20:54, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
Elizabeth Hope → Lady Hope Story – (proposal was briefly changed to "Darwin deathbed conversion story" then back again). Proposed move per WP:BIO1E. All the sources in the article talk about her in the context of the story, and Google Books "Elizabeth Hope" Cotton (using her maiden name to filter out other results) returns only books written by her. These books do not appear to be notable based on lack of secondary sources. Various other searches, such as filtering based on her dates of birth/death or the title "Lady" instead of her maiden name, and using "-Darwin" where necessary, do not return other results on either Google Books or Google. Arc de Ciel ( talk) 16:39, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
Additional comment (added after some of the discussion below). Almost all of the biographical information is sourced to a single book, which according to the discussion above is probably not a reliable source. Arc de Ciel ( talk) 08:04, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
I read the piece linked, and there's nothing scholarly about it. It's just a ramble through miscellaneous sources that came to the author's attention. The piece even contains the embarrassing misinformation that Lady Hope told her tale to Dwight L. Moody, who died in 1899, fifteen years before he could have heard it.-- John Foxe ( talk) 12:43, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
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Why is the article titled "Elizabeth Cotton, Lady Hope", since she never used that form for her name or was known by it? She was already a public before her first marriage and published her Coffee book under her maiden name, Cotton. After she married her first husband, she stopped using her maiden name. I was wondering if the form used is acceptable under WP:NCP, since she never combined Cotton and Lady Hope for her name. Libertybison ( talk) 07:29, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
Ssilvers, there is a redirect entitled "Lady Hope" that leads directly to the evangelist Lady Hope's page. This is confusing for people searching for the actress and wife of Lord Francis Hope, May Yohé, especially those people who are more aware of her vaguely through the lore of the Hope Diamond and how it was lost from the Hope family through bankruptcy following their divorce. As far as I can tell those are the only two biographical articles which that phrase could be referring to, so a disambiguation page seems to be out of the question. That makes a hatnote necessary, especially on the evangelist's page, if somebody didn't know Yohe's maiden or stage names, or that she divorced Lord Francis and lost her title, and typed in "Lady Hope" in the search box seeking more biographical information on her. (Which was my situation.) Libertybison ( talk) 07:07, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
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