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This is the text I took out of the main article. There's clearly a POV here. Additionally, the fact that it made up such a large part of the (admittedly small) article is inherently POV. Stanton may have felt strongly about the issue, but it was not a major part of her public life and works. Imagine if the George W. Bush article had a major section on fighting spam. Schmeitgeist 22:27, Jan 12, 2005 (UTC)
im relaited to Elizabeth Cady Stanton
The modern political debate over abortion has forgotten or ignored the position of early feminists on the issue, but writings clearly display the very negative opinion Stanton and others held of abortion. In an 1873 letter to Julia Ward Howe, recorded in Howe's diary at Harvard University Library, Stanton stated of abortion:
In The Revolution of February 5, 1868 Stanton called abortion "infanticide." In the March 12, 1868 issue she proposed the solution to abortion would be found, at least in part, in the elevation and enfranchisement of women.
How can Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan B. Anthony have organized the 1848 Seneca Falls Convention together if they didn't meet until 1851?
This women is very admirable and would be fabulous for a research report. Exspecially for young women who want someone to look up to.
I myself have done a report on women's rights... she was a key part of it. So was the Seneca Falls Convention.
Ferocious marshmallow
03:59, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
I read somewhere that Stanton was acquainted with John Brown and that he and Frederick Douglass had atteneded the Seneca Falls Conference or was that just Douglass or maybe a different conclave? Tom Cod 23:16, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
There are a couple of good quotes in the Stanton article, but they aren't specifically cited, and it seems to me they should be. Please see the following: (1) end of the 3rd and end of the 5th paragraphs in section on "Marriage & Family," and (2) end of the 1st paragraph in section on "Stanton and Division within the Women's Rights Movement." If someone can leave information here about page and reference work used, I'm happy to take care of getting it properly included in the footnotes for the article. Jancarhart 19:06, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
WBardwin 07:15, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
CITATIONS FOR POSITION ON ABORTION: Have searched both Baker and Dubois references with no luck in finding the following passages on ECS & abortion. Am placing them here until citations are found:
"Stanton declared, 'I will cut off this right arm of mine before I will ever work for or demand the ballot for the Negro and not the woman.' While her frustration was understandable, Stanton's position arguably helped do two things: (1) fragment the civil rights movement by pitting African American men against women, and (2) establish a basis for the literacy requirements that followed the Black male franchise. At the time, Stanton's position caused a significant rift between herself and many civil rights leaders, particularly Frederick Douglass. (Kern, pp 111-112)"
Arguably? This woman and her friends practically started the abolishinist movement! If there are historians who don't see Stanton's actions as racist -- and I am sure there must be -- then this ought to be reflected in the piece. As it reads now, it is not NPOV.
The problem is this Wiki piece starts off witht the assumption that Stanton and her associates took up the cause of slavery and then took up the cause of women. In the PBS special I saw about Stanton, it was clear that these early feminists saw that it was pointless to push for equality while their brothers and sisters in bondage did not also have equality. It was never -- never -- an either/or thing. And so later, when Frederick Douglass told Stanton that they were going to have to wait until later for equality because it was the slaves' turn (because the men in office weren't "ready" to accept women as equals) they were justifiable outraged. After all, what good does it do to free a black woman who immediately becomes bonded in another way? This was their reasoning.
Here is the Douglass quote which implies that their two causes are seperate. (Note that Douglass was a strong supporter of women's rights, and his position is a political one, and was done because he honestly felt - and may have been right - that the two causes wouldn't both be accepted by the public):
"On putting a priority, after the Civil War, on votes for African Americans males before women in general] When women, because they are women, are dragged from their homes and hung upon lampposts; when their children are torn from their arms and their brains dashed upon the pavement;... then they will have the urgency to obtain the ballot."
For Wikipedia to point out that Stanton was not being realistic to expect all those changes at once -- for women and for slaves -- is just. For Wikipedia to claim that she suddenly became racist after years of pushing for equality for slaves, is not.
66.57.225.77 19:38, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This is the text I took out of the main article. There's clearly a POV here. Additionally, the fact that it made up such a large part of the (admittedly small) article is inherently POV. Stanton may have felt strongly about the issue, but it was not a major part of her public life and works. Imagine if the George W. Bush article had a major section on fighting spam. Schmeitgeist 22:27, Jan 12, 2005 (UTC)
im relaited to Elizabeth Cady Stanton
The modern political debate over abortion has forgotten or ignored the position of early feminists on the issue, but writings clearly display the very negative opinion Stanton and others held of abortion. In an 1873 letter to Julia Ward Howe, recorded in Howe's diary at Harvard University Library, Stanton stated of abortion:
In The Revolution of February 5, 1868 Stanton called abortion "infanticide." In the March 12, 1868 issue she proposed the solution to abortion would be found, at least in part, in the elevation and enfranchisement of women.
How can Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan B. Anthony have organized the 1848 Seneca Falls Convention together if they didn't meet until 1851?
This women is very admirable and would be fabulous for a research report. Exspecially for young women who want someone to look up to.
I myself have done a report on women's rights... she was a key part of it. So was the Seneca Falls Convention.
Ferocious marshmallow
03:59, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
I read somewhere that Stanton was acquainted with John Brown and that he and Frederick Douglass had atteneded the Seneca Falls Conference or was that just Douglass or maybe a different conclave? Tom Cod 23:16, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
There are a couple of good quotes in the Stanton article, but they aren't specifically cited, and it seems to me they should be. Please see the following: (1) end of the 3rd and end of the 5th paragraphs in section on "Marriage & Family," and (2) end of the 1st paragraph in section on "Stanton and Division within the Women's Rights Movement." If someone can leave information here about page and reference work used, I'm happy to take care of getting it properly included in the footnotes for the article. Jancarhart 19:06, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
WBardwin 07:15, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
CITATIONS FOR POSITION ON ABORTION: Have searched both Baker and Dubois references with no luck in finding the following passages on ECS & abortion. Am placing them here until citations are found:
"Stanton declared, 'I will cut off this right arm of mine before I will ever work for or demand the ballot for the Negro and not the woman.' While her frustration was understandable, Stanton's position arguably helped do two things: (1) fragment the civil rights movement by pitting African American men against women, and (2) establish a basis for the literacy requirements that followed the Black male franchise. At the time, Stanton's position caused a significant rift between herself and many civil rights leaders, particularly Frederick Douglass. (Kern, pp 111-112)"
Arguably? This woman and her friends practically started the abolishinist movement! If there are historians who don't see Stanton's actions as racist -- and I am sure there must be -- then this ought to be reflected in the piece. As it reads now, it is not NPOV.
The problem is this Wiki piece starts off witht the assumption that Stanton and her associates took up the cause of slavery and then took up the cause of women. In the PBS special I saw about Stanton, it was clear that these early feminists saw that it was pointless to push for equality while their brothers and sisters in bondage did not also have equality. It was never -- never -- an either/or thing. And so later, when Frederick Douglass told Stanton that they were going to have to wait until later for equality because it was the slaves' turn (because the men in office weren't "ready" to accept women as equals) they were justifiable outraged. After all, what good does it do to free a black woman who immediately becomes bonded in another way? This was their reasoning.
Here is the Douglass quote which implies that their two causes are seperate. (Note that Douglass was a strong supporter of women's rights, and his position is a political one, and was done because he honestly felt - and may have been right - that the two causes wouldn't both be accepted by the public):
"On putting a priority, after the Civil War, on votes for African Americans males before women in general] When women, because they are women, are dragged from their homes and hung upon lampposts; when their children are torn from their arms and their brains dashed upon the pavement;... then they will have the urgency to obtain the ballot."
For Wikipedia to point out that Stanton was not being realistic to expect all those changes at once -- for women and for slaves -- is just. For Wikipedia to claim that she suddenly became racist after years of pushing for equality for slaves, is not.
66.57.225.77 19:38, 27 September 2006 (UTC)