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The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: moved to
Eli Lilly (industrialist, born 1885). Clear consensus to move although no consensus on the new title. I chose the option that I think better meets
WP:NCPDAB. Per
WP:OTHEROPTIONS any editor can create a new move request at any time. Regarding the primary topic issue or possible move of
Eli Lilly, a new request that includes that page will be needed to get as much participation as possible. (
closed by non-admin page mover)
Vpab15 (
talk) 21:10, 7 August 2022 (UTC)reply
Eli Lilly (industrialist) → Eli Lilly Jr. – The current disambiguation of "(industrialist)" is not adequate to separate this Eli Lilly from his grandfather
Eli Lilly, who also was in the pharmaceutical industry and founded
Eli Lilly and Company. Plenty of sources (
[1][2][3]) call Eli Lilly (born 1885) "Eli Lilly Jr." to distinguish him from his grandfather, so it serves as a strong
WP:NATURAL disambiguation.
Cerebral726 (
talk) 20:29, 20 July 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (
投稿) 20:37, 27 July 2022 (UTC)reply
If we are going to disambiguate further, we would want to just drop "industrialist", since it could be more succinctly described as
Eli Lilly (born 1885) and
Eli Lilly (born 1838), per
WP:TITLEDAB. However, I still think "Jr." makes a lot more sense since
WP:NATURAL states it is fine to use a less common but still used alternative name for the subject, and there is strong reasons not to use birth year as a disambiguator per
WP:NCPDAB which states "Years of birth and death are not normally used as disambiguators, as readers are more likely to be seeking this information than to already know it." Using the Jr. is a more natural solution that reduces the clunky parentheticals. --
Cerebral726 (
talk) 13:42, 21 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Although
WP:TITLEDAB does advise the use of succinct parenthetical qualifiers, dropping "industrialist" would indeed run contrary to
WP:NCPDAB, thus "industrialist" or a similar term, such as "manufacturer", is certainly needed in addition to the birth year. A glance at any dab page which has name entries that require this type of disambiguation will confirm the point. In the case at hand, leaving the 19th-century grandfather
Eli Lilly as the
WP:PRIMARYTOPIC of
Eli Lilly (disambiguation) and indicating the lesser-used form "
Eli Lilly Jr." for his better-known grandson, does not seem to be the most intuitive resolution. —
Roman Spinner(talk •
contribs) 15:05, 21 July 2022 (UTC)reply
You're totally write about
WP:NCPDAB, my mistake. I disagree about the "Jr". not being a better solution than a (in my opinion) long parenthetical, but I appreciate the kind response to me being wrong about the policy regarding the use of industrialist. --
Cerebral726 (
talk) 15:09, 21 July 2022 (UTC)reply
I also appreciate your kind reply and, since requested moves are consensus-based, other editors may ultimately decide that your nomination represents the better proposal. —
Roman Spinner(talk •
contribs) 15:20, 21 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Support per
WP:NATURALUsing an alternative name that the subject is also commonly called in English reliable sources, albeit not as commonly as the preferred-but-ambiguous title. Since his grandfather
Eli Lillyis appears to be (is he?) the primary topic, and (industrialist) does not really disambiguate from his grandfather, we need something else. I can find multiple examples of
Eli Lilly Jr. in the books.
No such user (
talk) 12:20, 2 August 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment If the grandfather is not a primary topic (and there are reasonable doubts about it), I still think that we should take an exception from
WP:NCPDABYears of birth and death are not normally used as disambiguators, bold mine – the only two notable Eli Lillys were relatives and rather famous chemical industrialists, so
Eli Lilly (1838–1898) and
Eli Lilly (1885–1977) would work just fine.
Eli Lilly (industrialist, born 1838) is a mouthful and looks kind of silly.
No such user (
talk) 12:26, 2 August 2022 (UTC)reply
We don't generally, but don't you think it's silly to include "industrialist" to the only two people we need to distinguish? It's
WP:CONSISTENCY gone wild, and I'm strongly opposing such solution.
No such user (
talk) 18:14, 3 August 2022 (UTC)reply
No, I don't. I think it's helpful to readers to know who they were. And consistency is a good thing! --
Necrothesp (
talk) 10:50, 4 August 2022 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to
join the project and
contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Business, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
business articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.BusinessWikipedia:WikiProject BusinessTemplate:WikiProject BusinessWikiProject Business articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Conservatism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
conservatism on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ConservatismWikipedia:WikiProject ConservatismTemplate:WikiProject ConservatismConservatism articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Indiana Historical Society, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Indiana Historical Society-related articles and topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Indiana Historical SocietyWikipedia:GLAM/Indiana Historical SocietyTemplate:WikiProject Indiana Historical SocietyIndiana Historical Society articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the
United States of America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: moved to
Eli Lilly (industrialist, born 1885). Clear consensus to move although no consensus on the new title. I chose the option that I think better meets
WP:NCPDAB. Per
WP:OTHEROPTIONS any editor can create a new move request at any time. Regarding the primary topic issue or possible move of
Eli Lilly, a new request that includes that page will be needed to get as much participation as possible. (
closed by non-admin page mover)
Vpab15 (
talk) 21:10, 7 August 2022 (UTC)reply
Eli Lilly (industrialist) → Eli Lilly Jr. – The current disambiguation of "(industrialist)" is not adequate to separate this Eli Lilly from his grandfather
Eli Lilly, who also was in the pharmaceutical industry and founded
Eli Lilly and Company. Plenty of sources (
[1][2][3]) call Eli Lilly (born 1885) "Eli Lilly Jr." to distinguish him from his grandfather, so it serves as a strong
WP:NATURAL disambiguation.
Cerebral726 (
talk) 20:29, 20 July 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (
投稿) 20:37, 27 July 2022 (UTC)reply
If we are going to disambiguate further, we would want to just drop "industrialist", since it could be more succinctly described as
Eli Lilly (born 1885) and
Eli Lilly (born 1838), per
WP:TITLEDAB. However, I still think "Jr." makes a lot more sense since
WP:NATURAL states it is fine to use a less common but still used alternative name for the subject, and there is strong reasons not to use birth year as a disambiguator per
WP:NCPDAB which states "Years of birth and death are not normally used as disambiguators, as readers are more likely to be seeking this information than to already know it." Using the Jr. is a more natural solution that reduces the clunky parentheticals. --
Cerebral726 (
talk) 13:42, 21 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Although
WP:TITLEDAB does advise the use of succinct parenthetical qualifiers, dropping "industrialist" would indeed run contrary to
WP:NCPDAB, thus "industrialist" or a similar term, such as "manufacturer", is certainly needed in addition to the birth year. A glance at any dab page which has name entries that require this type of disambiguation will confirm the point. In the case at hand, leaving the 19th-century grandfather
Eli Lilly as the
WP:PRIMARYTOPIC of
Eli Lilly (disambiguation) and indicating the lesser-used form "
Eli Lilly Jr." for his better-known grandson, does not seem to be the most intuitive resolution. —
Roman Spinner(talk •
contribs) 15:05, 21 July 2022 (UTC)reply
You're totally write about
WP:NCPDAB, my mistake. I disagree about the "Jr". not being a better solution than a (in my opinion) long parenthetical, but I appreciate the kind response to me being wrong about the policy regarding the use of industrialist. --
Cerebral726 (
talk) 15:09, 21 July 2022 (UTC)reply
I also appreciate your kind reply and, since requested moves are consensus-based, other editors may ultimately decide that your nomination represents the better proposal. —
Roman Spinner(talk •
contribs) 15:20, 21 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Support per
WP:NATURALUsing an alternative name that the subject is also commonly called in English reliable sources, albeit not as commonly as the preferred-but-ambiguous title. Since his grandfather
Eli Lillyis appears to be (is he?) the primary topic, and (industrialist) does not really disambiguate from his grandfather, we need something else. I can find multiple examples of
Eli Lilly Jr. in the books.
No such user (
talk) 12:20, 2 August 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment If the grandfather is not a primary topic (and there are reasonable doubts about it), I still think that we should take an exception from
WP:NCPDABYears of birth and death are not normally used as disambiguators, bold mine – the only two notable Eli Lillys were relatives and rather famous chemical industrialists, so
Eli Lilly (1838–1898) and
Eli Lilly (1885–1977) would work just fine.
Eli Lilly (industrialist, born 1838) is a mouthful and looks kind of silly.
No such user (
talk) 12:26, 2 August 2022 (UTC)reply
We don't generally, but don't you think it's silly to include "industrialist" to the only two people we need to distinguish? It's
WP:CONSISTENCY gone wild, and I'm strongly opposing such solution.
No such user (
talk) 18:14, 3 August 2022 (UTC)reply
No, I don't. I think it's helpful to readers to know who they were. And consistency is a good thing! --
Necrothesp (
talk) 10:50, 4 August 2022 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.