This article was nominated for deletion on 22 June 2018. The result of the discussion was keep. |
Elevations Residential Treatment Center was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 28 June 2018 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Elevations RTC. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
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Hi Shadowrvn728, you've indicate there are some issues with the page. Please explain what the issue is with the cites? The article is very well cited. Aside from some issues with the cites that need to be fixed format-wise, the article has plentiful and diverse cites, including from the program's materials itself and from independent sources.
You also indicate it needs to be fact checked. The content is taken directly from the many cited sources. What do you need to fact check? Please expain so we can fix the page issues and remove the warning. Thanks. -- Ttifacts ( talk) 06:32, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
@
Ttifacts:Hey Ttifacts, please check
WP:RS. Blogs/user-generated content (such as cafemom.com) are not reliable sources. When using the parent manual and parent resources make sure to use a secondary source. I wouldn't recommend using it to add information that can't be found elsewhere because the parent manual and parent resources are not publicly available. There is also a part of the article that uses a broken instagram post link from a meme account, which is not a reliable source under
WP:UGC. Another part cites Facebook and MySpace groups (two of which are non-working, one a redirect and one a broken link) and it seems the only purpose of this part is to promote the groups and the information is unnecessary. I haven't read through the whole article and checked it, but I will continue to throughout the day and edit it as I do. If you have discord and would rather talk on there see my user page
Shadowrvn728 (
talk)
@
Ttifacts: Sections of the handbook are available online and are therefore publicly available, so I disagree that they cannot be cited. You can find pages of the Elevations parent manual on this tweet, and there are also pages on the Yelp reviews.
https://twitter.com/ElevationsRTC/status/1353588011942912000?s=20 Moreover, any source can be cited, and it does not need to be available online by any means. A book, for example, would not be publicly available online is still citeable to. The manuals are in actuality very citeable sources considering they come directly from the program. The information that is in the Elevations handbook is also almost word for word from the archived Island View website, stating essentially the same thing. Therefore it is consistent and these are good sources. The sources are further backed up by the cafemom article, which is not a blog.
Cafemom is a website with millions of readers everyday. The website does not just publish any article and it is therefore highly reliable, especially since the article is backed up by several other sources, including the handbook itself. Please do not remove this information. The article is very well cited and removed of well-cited pieces of information is vandalism. --
Ttifacts (
talk)
06:26, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
@ Ttifacts: Cafemom is not a reliable source. It is a social networking site [1] [2] [3] There are plenty of websites with a lot of viewers that aren’t reliable sources. You also did not address the problem of using Instagram, Facebook and Myspace as sources, some of which are broken links. Shadowrvn728 ❯❯❯ Talk 21:00, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
As explained, Cafemom is a website and it is a reliable source. It is also supported by several other sources. The instagram and twitter sources I believe have been removed, so that has been remedied. Therefore I am removing your point re sources as it is no longer appropriate. As for the sentence about restraint, this is an almost direct quote from the program and therefore I am going to remove your point re this as it is not appropriate. This paragraph has also been edited by a wikipedia editor as has the whole article - edits were made to the grammar and to better phrase it by this person. Finally, the article has sufficient detail, and your point about adding more detail or moving detail is not necessary. I will report you for vandalism if you further vandalize the article. Ttifacts ( talk) 21:53, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
@ Ttifacts: You can't just say something is a reliable source because it is a website. "Almost direct quotes" shouldn't be in WP articles, but instead there should be information based on that quote, and "Restraints are a part of what Elevations does" counts as awkward language and needs to be reworded to follow WP:Tone as it sounds a bit biased and like an opinion. Can you also provide more detail as to how I am vandalizing? Shadowrvn728 ❯❯❯ Talk 00:05, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
References
@ Ttifacts:
Let me know what you think! Shadowrvn728 ❯❯❯ Talk 20:41, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
I think we should specify manual or non-mechanical as it could lead readers to believe it means something like a four-point restraint chair or another type of mechanical restraint. Let me know what you think Shadowrvn728 ❯❯❯ Talk 02:28, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 16:24, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
I removed that section, but an IP editor chose to put it back, arguing that it "made the news" [1]. My point, as reflected in the news story, is that one anonymous parent said they were dissatisfied with the school's handling of it. Not enough, apparently, to actually do anything like bring their child home, just enough to complain to a reporter. No specifics are given. I would think it would be easy to find one anonymous parent complaining about the way any school on earth has handled pandemic response, so that seems like undue weight to me and I still think it should be removed, but I'm not going to edit war over it so here we are. Beeblebrox ( talk) 18:01, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
The controversies section is not at all in chronological order, it seems kind of random. Beeblebrox ( talk) 22:37, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
It looks to be in reverse chronological order, isn't it? -- 76.103.73.103 ( talk) 20:16, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
There's clearly a problem here, and I see neither party has heeded my suggestion to discuss it here, so I've opened a discussion at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard#Elevations RTC to try and solicit some outside input from uninvolved editors. I chose to do this instead of filing at WP:ANEW to have the edit warriors blocked in the hope that they will take this chance to step back from edit warring and arguing via edit summaries and have an open discussion here, and maybe take a little time to learn content disputes are supposed to be settled. Beeblebrox ( talk) 13:50, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
Hi Beeblebrox, I'd be more than happy to discuss here. I let HiRachel420 know on their talk page that there is probably a better place to put the content that they keep trying to put onto the ElevationsRTC page, perhaps on the Paris Hilton page or the pages for the companies they are referring to, if those exist. The content that they keep putting onto the ELevations RTC page has nothing to do with Elevations RTC, and the articles that are sourced also do not mention Elevations RTC. So I am really not sure why HiRachel420 keeps putting that content there. Farr4h2004 ( talk) 20:27, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
HiRachel420 keeps adding unverifiable and clearly skewed information on the page in this section. I believe this information needs to be deleted from the article. The person is discussing Paris Hilton and her husband, both of who have nothing to do with Elevations RTC, other than a rally that has already been mentioned. This person has been invited to discuss on the talk page but has not participated. Farr4h2004 ( talk) 19:11, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
It appears the person has been blocked so I am going to revert the edits. If there is a problem with his, I am happy to discuss here. Farr4h2004 ( talk) 19:13, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
reverted, at this page has massive issues with non notability, and single source self published testimonials.
the possibility that someone closely associated with the abuse at these schools is editing in a non neutral point of view seems a real possiblity.
I'm going to check back next month after researching these claims.
note: being an employee of a business likely isn't notable, by itself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SkidMountTubularFrame ( talk • contribs) 23:06, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
I'm currently rewriting this with a npov slant. any help from unbiased editors is welcome. SkidMountTubularFrame ( talk) 01:04, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
What are you rewriting? The page has a large amount of sources. I see you deleted the attacks. Thank you. Farr4h2004 ( talk) 04:39, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
rewriting from scratch, for style and npov . I'll upload the completed page when it's done. just giving the heads up SkidMountTubularFrame ( talk) 14:01, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
The whole thing doesn’t need to be rewritten. There’s a major history to this article and it’s been discussed fervently and appropriate changes have been made. You can see all this in the talk page. If you have issues, please discuss then further on the talk page and point out where there are issues. Farr4h2004 ( talk) 07:17, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
thank you for your advice on my extensive prose rewrite. keeping it in mind, all your suggestions are welcome. SkidMountTubularFrame ( talk) 18:46, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
thanks roxy, your suggestions are noted. sources will be removed, and prose altered, as per wiki policy. I'm almost done with the prose rewrite, i welcome your assistance with balancing this article. SkidMountTubularFrame ( talk) 19:21, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
sorry mr dog. i am just learning how to do all of that. thanks for your help. SkidMountTubularFrame ( talk) 03:30, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
I have it seen any links or any discussions about any issues with this article coming from SmidMountTubalarFrame. On their talk page, they also referred to themselves as “us” so it’s unclear if this is some kind of paid company who rewrites articles. I’m not sure what “prose” this person is talking about. They’re also deleting satisfiable sources to articles claiming they are personal blogs when they are very much not and are refusing to enter into any meaningful discussion despite being promoted on several occasions. It’s a little suspect. Farr4h2004 ( talk) 17:25, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
As of now, there seems to be no consensus on a rewrite. It’s unclear what the intended edits are and why a rewrite is necessary. Farr4h2004 ( talk) 17:27, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
I'm certain struggling teens, Woodbury reports, and various testimonials do not satisfy wiki sources, and they will be removed if readded thanks for helping to keep the encyclopedia correct. SkidMountTubularFrame ( talk) 04:40, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
Please cite the policy you’re certain that these sources are not satisfiable for wiki sources. I disagree. They are adding a balanced perspective to the article. Farr4h2004 ( talk) 17:20, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
Thank you. This person or company is claiming that strugglingteens.com is against wiki policy and I’m not sure that’s true. This is a new source with information from the industry, that includes articles by industry providers like elevations, and parents. To create a balanced article, it seems necessary to have both industry content and some of the more newsworthy information about Elevations that has been featured in more prominent news sources. Thoughts?
About
In 1995, StrugglingTeens.com went online as the original website for information about the many schools and programs available for troubled teens. The news and articles listed within this site provide an invaluable resource for both parents and professionals, as well as anyone interested in helping troubled teens find successful paths to adulthood.
With a combination of training and 20+ years of experience, our educational consultants provide balanced news, information, and provide professional help for parents of struggling and troubled teens helping families find programs, services and schools for teens and at risk youth.
Please take some time to peruse the site and call us if we can be of assistance to you. Farr4h2004 ( talk) 17:37, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
Articles should be based on reliable, independent, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy.. If you'd like to make a case that strugglingteens.com is a reputable news source with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, you can make that argument at WP:RSN and see if you get consensus that it should be considered a reliable source. Personally, it seems dubious to me. There are no editorial guidelines, no named individuals (everything seems to written by the anonymous admin), no explanation of their fact-checking methods or correction policy. Schazjmd (talk) 17:47, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
I believe the articles on strugglingteens being cited to are parent commentaries or press releases from Elevations itself. So they have authors. The press releases are relevant in terms of opening dates for example. They’re press releases releases for certain historical events. I will look at the policies some more and at the consensus link you listed Farr4h2004 ( talk) 18:02, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
The suicide that occurred at Island View in 2004 is discussed in several articles, most of which I believe are cited in the wiki article.
One of the ones cited is: "Teen facility targets suicide prevention". Deseret News. July 30, 2004. Retrieved October 15, 2013.
A residential treatment center for troubled teens is being required by state licensing officials to take "corrective action" after a 16-year-old Pennsylvania boy hanged himself earlier this month.
The youth, who had been at Island View Academy for only a month, apparently hanged himself from a shower support with a belt. The shower was in a bathroom shared by other residents.
Ken Stettler, the state's human services director over licensing, said Island View officials plan to meet with him next week to submit a corrective plan of action in light of the teenager's death.
From this article that is cited https://testkitchen.huffingtonpost.com/island-view/#troubled-teen-industry/
"Island View dealt with a death in 2004, when a boy hanged himself with a belt just a month into his stay."
This article is also mentioned: https://archive.sltrib.com/story.php?ref=/news/ci_7166739 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Farr4h2004 ( talk • contribs) 17:38, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
I've removed the claim regarding Broadbent: "Broadbent formerly worked as a teacher and counselor at the Intermountain Indian School, which is part of the allegedly troubling history of native boarding schools." Although the sourcing is ok, there is no source which directly connects Broadbent's time at the school with the "troubling history", and the source for Intermountain is mostly very positive of the school [3]. Therefore this ends up feeling like guilt-by-association, and when under the heading of controversies (and the lead of this section) suggests that Boadbent was directly involved in something wrong, with no source to back that up. In regard to Rivendell Psychiatric Hospital, Balmer's position as cofounder makes this more relevant (although it would be good if there was some evidence that he was involved when the problems occurred). However, there are two connected allegations being made - that Rivendell ran conversion therapy, and that students were abused. I agree that conversion therapy is a type of abuse, but given that the article we link to has Rivendell strongly denying being involved in conversion therapy, and it was unable to prove that they were, I think we need to highly both claims as allegations - otherwise it reads like conversion therapy was used, but that there were also allegations of abuse. - Bilby ( talk) 00:24, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
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Farr4h2004 (
talk)
22:45, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
References
{{
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Are there any secondary sources for this? Or sources they do not link to Scribd? per WP:RSP, we should not be using Scribd. I'm uncomfortable with just relying on a single claimed court document with no secondary sources in regard to a controversial claim, especially when the document we have is on a site we shouldn't use. - Bilby ( talk) 05:30, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
There are licensing records and police investigation documents as well. The court documents are also online at other cites. I will have to search for them tomorrow. Citing to court cases is certainly permitted. Farr4h2004 ( talk) 06:18, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
Also where are you getting that you can’t include scribd documents to refer to the document being cited (for verfiability)?
The girl in the lawsuit also spoke about the incident on Reddit but that’s not exactly a desired cite source. Farr4h2004 ( talk) 06:21, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
Farr4h2004, I removed another claim that cites a source that doesn't actually verify the claim. The Opal Creek registration only supports that Tim Dupell is the agent and manager for Opal Creek; it says nothing about Opal Creek's purpose or it investing in Family Health. Schazjmd (talk) 13:02, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
Ok. I didn’t originally add that info. I just moved it and had not verified it. Thanks for doing so. Farr4h2004 ( talk) 16:38, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
I'm not sure what to do about the programming section. It is heavily dependent on primary sources, and more concerning many of those sources are not officially publicly available (internal Elevations handbooks) so they don't seem to be verifiable. Flagging it here as it probably needs a rewrite by reducing the content to what we can source using verifiable references. - Bilby ( talk) 22:08, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
Ok. Well they can still be cited to. And no url needs to be included to the cites. If you’re worried about verifying the sources, you know where to find them. The handbooks are reliable I have checked. They were received from students and parents who were involved with the Elevations program. Farr4h2004 ( talk) 01:41, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
For the record, unsilenced.org has an archive of troubled teen program documents for informational and educational purposes. Farr4h2004 ( talk) 02:09, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
You can email them if you are curious where a document came from. Farr4h2004 ( talk) 02:10, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
You’re not listening. It’s been made clear these are public and you don’t like the answer. Please link your discussion at RSN. Farr4h2004 ( talk) 15:53, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
This program was founded by Kimball DeLaMare. A source was deleted referring to only Balmer and Boardbent but that is because the article was about the Oakley School, another program they founded. I don’t have time at the moment but there are several other sources about DeLaMare that came be used to establish him as a founder. Farr4h2004 ( talk) 16:20, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
Here is one such source listing him as a founder
https://www.deseret.com/1994/8/31/19128203/complex-for-troubled-adolescents-nearly-done Farr4h2004 ( talk) 16:22, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
I believe Family Help and Wellness have at least a part ownership in Elevations RTC. There are documents and sources linked in the article that explain this although they may be in the wrong places. Let's discuss this here before deleting the whole section. If FHW is the parent company, it is definitely relevant information. And there are again sources to reflect this. I believe the structure if set forth in the sales agreement that was made public in a lawsuit involving Aspen Education Group (former parent company) and FHW when the sale of troubled teen programs, including Elevations, was done. There are also corporate records available showing the same. When I have a moment I will check and link them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Farr4h2004 ( talk • contribs) 17:37, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
Here is one source, which is referenced elsewhere in the article. It’s the sale agreement. Tim Dupell, Family Help, AND Opal Creek Capital are listed as signors/managers for Elevations RTC (Syracuse RTC, LLC), which acquired Island View.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Cn4t48w8BG1tnDLl_3aHi6058940Q27K/view?usp=drivesdk Farr4h2004 ( talk) 07:05, 9 June 2022 (UTC)
Steven Stradley is also named in the document in an attached email. Farr4h2004 ( talk) 07:06, 9 June 2022 (UTC)
Opal Creek Capital is also affiliated here https://sec.report/Document/0001461859-09-000001/ Farr4h2004 ( talk) 07:10, 9 June 2022 (UTC)
Hi Stesmo, I wonder if you could explain your reasoning for this diff beyond your edsum? The nutshell on the EL page reads " External links in an article can be helpful to the reader, but they should be kept minimal, meritable, and directly relevant to the article." (my emphasis). The link you removed is surely exactly that. Thanks. - Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 07:33, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
@ Praxidicae why are you deleting references to public records? I am confused? The same material is also referenced in the KUER article. Where does it say they are subject to copyright?
It seems that there have been a few lawsuits against Elevations. In order to better manage this, should we limit it only to lawsuits that have secondary sources? If a lawsuit is dismissed, should it be included? Given how easy it can be to bring a lawsuit in the US, I don't think that the existence of a lawsuit should be sufficient in terms of weight - it should have secondary sources, or if not at a minimum have resulted in a finding against Elevations. Thoughts? - Bilby ( talk) 23:43, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
Has anyone noticed the rise in edits relating to therapeutic boarding schools & Residential treatment centers for this year? a few examples
Aspen Education Group page history ,
Carlbrook page history 1keyhole ( talk) 17:57, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
Hi User:Bilby. Could you explain how BLP has been violated? Thanks very much. - Roxy the dog 12:11, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
You added back content about living people, sourced solely to court documents. Per WP:BLPPRIMARY that is against policy, so I have reverted. In addition, as raised previously, those documents are hosted on Google Docs, where we cannot know if they are the originals or not, and they are the claims made in court by the prosecuting party, not the findings. I'm always worried about relying on prosecution or defence claims, as ultimately you can claim anything in court, and what matters is what the court finds at the end. In this case, due to a settlement, I assume that there were no court findings. - Bilby ( talk) 00:59, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
The article states lawsuits "were subsequently dismissed", a phrase that is then substantiated with a whopping six references. But none of the sources used there are anything other than complex court documents almost nobody will understand, and no secondary sources are listed at all. It's impossible to verify the claim unless you are an attorney, or something. -- 2001:1C06:19C9:400:4C00:50AE:BD63:AC41 ( talk) 13:08, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
"The only thing that has changed..." is an unsourced quotation, in the form of a paraphrase, that an editor is insisting on keeping in the article regarding this organization.
find a source for the additions, or remove it, please. have a Wikipedia day! Saintstephen000 ( talk) 10:00, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
This article was nominated for deletion on 22 June 2018. The result of the discussion was keep. |
Elevations Residential Treatment Center was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 28 June 2018 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Elevations RTC. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
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Hi Shadowrvn728, you've indicate there are some issues with the page. Please explain what the issue is with the cites? The article is very well cited. Aside from some issues with the cites that need to be fixed format-wise, the article has plentiful and diverse cites, including from the program's materials itself and from independent sources.
You also indicate it needs to be fact checked. The content is taken directly from the many cited sources. What do you need to fact check? Please expain so we can fix the page issues and remove the warning. Thanks. -- Ttifacts ( talk) 06:32, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
@
Ttifacts:Hey Ttifacts, please check
WP:RS. Blogs/user-generated content (such as cafemom.com) are not reliable sources. When using the parent manual and parent resources make sure to use a secondary source. I wouldn't recommend using it to add information that can't be found elsewhere because the parent manual and parent resources are not publicly available. There is also a part of the article that uses a broken instagram post link from a meme account, which is not a reliable source under
WP:UGC. Another part cites Facebook and MySpace groups (two of which are non-working, one a redirect and one a broken link) and it seems the only purpose of this part is to promote the groups and the information is unnecessary. I haven't read through the whole article and checked it, but I will continue to throughout the day and edit it as I do. If you have discord and would rather talk on there see my user page
Shadowrvn728 (
talk)
@
Ttifacts: Sections of the handbook are available online and are therefore publicly available, so I disagree that they cannot be cited. You can find pages of the Elevations parent manual on this tweet, and there are also pages on the Yelp reviews.
https://twitter.com/ElevationsRTC/status/1353588011942912000?s=20 Moreover, any source can be cited, and it does not need to be available online by any means. A book, for example, would not be publicly available online is still citeable to. The manuals are in actuality very citeable sources considering they come directly from the program. The information that is in the Elevations handbook is also almost word for word from the archived Island View website, stating essentially the same thing. Therefore it is consistent and these are good sources. The sources are further backed up by the cafemom article, which is not a blog.
Cafemom is a website with millions of readers everyday. The website does not just publish any article and it is therefore highly reliable, especially since the article is backed up by several other sources, including the handbook itself. Please do not remove this information. The article is very well cited and removed of well-cited pieces of information is vandalism. --
Ttifacts (
talk)
06:26, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
@ Ttifacts: Cafemom is not a reliable source. It is a social networking site [1] [2] [3] There are plenty of websites with a lot of viewers that aren’t reliable sources. You also did not address the problem of using Instagram, Facebook and Myspace as sources, some of which are broken links. Shadowrvn728 ❯❯❯ Talk 21:00, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
As explained, Cafemom is a website and it is a reliable source. It is also supported by several other sources. The instagram and twitter sources I believe have been removed, so that has been remedied. Therefore I am removing your point re sources as it is no longer appropriate. As for the sentence about restraint, this is an almost direct quote from the program and therefore I am going to remove your point re this as it is not appropriate. This paragraph has also been edited by a wikipedia editor as has the whole article - edits were made to the grammar and to better phrase it by this person. Finally, the article has sufficient detail, and your point about adding more detail or moving detail is not necessary. I will report you for vandalism if you further vandalize the article. Ttifacts ( talk) 21:53, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
@ Ttifacts: You can't just say something is a reliable source because it is a website. "Almost direct quotes" shouldn't be in WP articles, but instead there should be information based on that quote, and "Restraints are a part of what Elevations does" counts as awkward language and needs to be reworded to follow WP:Tone as it sounds a bit biased and like an opinion. Can you also provide more detail as to how I am vandalizing? Shadowrvn728 ❯❯❯ Talk 00:05, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
References
@ Ttifacts:
Let me know what you think! Shadowrvn728 ❯❯❯ Talk 20:41, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
I think we should specify manual or non-mechanical as it could lead readers to believe it means something like a four-point restraint chair or another type of mechanical restraint. Let me know what you think Shadowrvn728 ❯❯❯ Talk 02:28, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 16:24, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
I removed that section, but an IP editor chose to put it back, arguing that it "made the news" [1]. My point, as reflected in the news story, is that one anonymous parent said they were dissatisfied with the school's handling of it. Not enough, apparently, to actually do anything like bring their child home, just enough to complain to a reporter. No specifics are given. I would think it would be easy to find one anonymous parent complaining about the way any school on earth has handled pandemic response, so that seems like undue weight to me and I still think it should be removed, but I'm not going to edit war over it so here we are. Beeblebrox ( talk) 18:01, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
The controversies section is not at all in chronological order, it seems kind of random. Beeblebrox ( talk) 22:37, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
It looks to be in reverse chronological order, isn't it? -- 76.103.73.103 ( talk) 20:16, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
There's clearly a problem here, and I see neither party has heeded my suggestion to discuss it here, so I've opened a discussion at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard#Elevations RTC to try and solicit some outside input from uninvolved editors. I chose to do this instead of filing at WP:ANEW to have the edit warriors blocked in the hope that they will take this chance to step back from edit warring and arguing via edit summaries and have an open discussion here, and maybe take a little time to learn content disputes are supposed to be settled. Beeblebrox ( talk) 13:50, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
Hi Beeblebrox, I'd be more than happy to discuss here. I let HiRachel420 know on their talk page that there is probably a better place to put the content that they keep trying to put onto the ElevationsRTC page, perhaps on the Paris Hilton page or the pages for the companies they are referring to, if those exist. The content that they keep putting onto the ELevations RTC page has nothing to do with Elevations RTC, and the articles that are sourced also do not mention Elevations RTC. So I am really not sure why HiRachel420 keeps putting that content there. Farr4h2004 ( talk) 20:27, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
HiRachel420 keeps adding unverifiable and clearly skewed information on the page in this section. I believe this information needs to be deleted from the article. The person is discussing Paris Hilton and her husband, both of who have nothing to do with Elevations RTC, other than a rally that has already been mentioned. This person has been invited to discuss on the talk page but has not participated. Farr4h2004 ( talk) 19:11, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
It appears the person has been blocked so I am going to revert the edits. If there is a problem with his, I am happy to discuss here. Farr4h2004 ( talk) 19:13, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
reverted, at this page has massive issues with non notability, and single source self published testimonials.
the possibility that someone closely associated with the abuse at these schools is editing in a non neutral point of view seems a real possiblity.
I'm going to check back next month after researching these claims.
note: being an employee of a business likely isn't notable, by itself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SkidMountTubularFrame ( talk • contribs) 23:06, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
I'm currently rewriting this with a npov slant. any help from unbiased editors is welcome. SkidMountTubularFrame ( talk) 01:04, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
What are you rewriting? The page has a large amount of sources. I see you deleted the attacks. Thank you. Farr4h2004 ( talk) 04:39, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
rewriting from scratch, for style and npov . I'll upload the completed page when it's done. just giving the heads up SkidMountTubularFrame ( talk) 14:01, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
The whole thing doesn’t need to be rewritten. There’s a major history to this article and it’s been discussed fervently and appropriate changes have been made. You can see all this in the talk page. If you have issues, please discuss then further on the talk page and point out where there are issues. Farr4h2004 ( talk) 07:17, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
thank you for your advice on my extensive prose rewrite. keeping it in mind, all your suggestions are welcome. SkidMountTubularFrame ( talk) 18:46, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
thanks roxy, your suggestions are noted. sources will be removed, and prose altered, as per wiki policy. I'm almost done with the prose rewrite, i welcome your assistance with balancing this article. SkidMountTubularFrame ( talk) 19:21, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
sorry mr dog. i am just learning how to do all of that. thanks for your help. SkidMountTubularFrame ( talk) 03:30, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
I have it seen any links or any discussions about any issues with this article coming from SmidMountTubalarFrame. On their talk page, they also referred to themselves as “us” so it’s unclear if this is some kind of paid company who rewrites articles. I’m not sure what “prose” this person is talking about. They’re also deleting satisfiable sources to articles claiming they are personal blogs when they are very much not and are refusing to enter into any meaningful discussion despite being promoted on several occasions. It’s a little suspect. Farr4h2004 ( talk) 17:25, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
As of now, there seems to be no consensus on a rewrite. It’s unclear what the intended edits are and why a rewrite is necessary. Farr4h2004 ( talk) 17:27, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
I'm certain struggling teens, Woodbury reports, and various testimonials do not satisfy wiki sources, and they will be removed if readded thanks for helping to keep the encyclopedia correct. SkidMountTubularFrame ( talk) 04:40, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
Please cite the policy you’re certain that these sources are not satisfiable for wiki sources. I disagree. They are adding a balanced perspective to the article. Farr4h2004 ( talk) 17:20, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
Thank you. This person or company is claiming that strugglingteens.com is against wiki policy and I’m not sure that’s true. This is a new source with information from the industry, that includes articles by industry providers like elevations, and parents. To create a balanced article, it seems necessary to have both industry content and some of the more newsworthy information about Elevations that has been featured in more prominent news sources. Thoughts?
About
In 1995, StrugglingTeens.com went online as the original website for information about the many schools and programs available for troubled teens. The news and articles listed within this site provide an invaluable resource for both parents and professionals, as well as anyone interested in helping troubled teens find successful paths to adulthood.
With a combination of training and 20+ years of experience, our educational consultants provide balanced news, information, and provide professional help for parents of struggling and troubled teens helping families find programs, services and schools for teens and at risk youth.
Please take some time to peruse the site and call us if we can be of assistance to you. Farr4h2004 ( talk) 17:37, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
Articles should be based on reliable, independent, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy.. If you'd like to make a case that strugglingteens.com is a reputable news source with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, you can make that argument at WP:RSN and see if you get consensus that it should be considered a reliable source. Personally, it seems dubious to me. There are no editorial guidelines, no named individuals (everything seems to written by the anonymous admin), no explanation of their fact-checking methods or correction policy. Schazjmd (talk) 17:47, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
I believe the articles on strugglingteens being cited to are parent commentaries or press releases from Elevations itself. So they have authors. The press releases are relevant in terms of opening dates for example. They’re press releases releases for certain historical events. I will look at the policies some more and at the consensus link you listed Farr4h2004 ( talk) 18:02, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
The suicide that occurred at Island View in 2004 is discussed in several articles, most of which I believe are cited in the wiki article.
One of the ones cited is: "Teen facility targets suicide prevention". Deseret News. July 30, 2004. Retrieved October 15, 2013.
A residential treatment center for troubled teens is being required by state licensing officials to take "corrective action" after a 16-year-old Pennsylvania boy hanged himself earlier this month.
The youth, who had been at Island View Academy for only a month, apparently hanged himself from a shower support with a belt. The shower was in a bathroom shared by other residents.
Ken Stettler, the state's human services director over licensing, said Island View officials plan to meet with him next week to submit a corrective plan of action in light of the teenager's death.
From this article that is cited https://testkitchen.huffingtonpost.com/island-view/#troubled-teen-industry/
"Island View dealt with a death in 2004, when a boy hanged himself with a belt just a month into his stay."
This article is also mentioned: https://archive.sltrib.com/story.php?ref=/news/ci_7166739 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Farr4h2004 ( talk • contribs) 17:38, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
I've removed the claim regarding Broadbent: "Broadbent formerly worked as a teacher and counselor at the Intermountain Indian School, which is part of the allegedly troubling history of native boarding schools." Although the sourcing is ok, there is no source which directly connects Broadbent's time at the school with the "troubling history", and the source for Intermountain is mostly very positive of the school [3]. Therefore this ends up feeling like guilt-by-association, and when under the heading of controversies (and the lead of this section) suggests that Boadbent was directly involved in something wrong, with no source to back that up. In regard to Rivendell Psychiatric Hospital, Balmer's position as cofounder makes this more relevant (although it would be good if there was some evidence that he was involved when the problems occurred). However, there are two connected allegations being made - that Rivendell ran conversion therapy, and that students were abused. I agree that conversion therapy is a type of abuse, but given that the article we link to has Rivendell strongly denying being involved in conversion therapy, and it was unable to prove that they were, I think we need to highly both claims as allegations - otherwise it reads like conversion therapy was used, but that there were also allegations of abuse. - Bilby ( talk) 00:24, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
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Are there any secondary sources for this? Or sources they do not link to Scribd? per WP:RSP, we should not be using Scribd. I'm uncomfortable with just relying on a single claimed court document with no secondary sources in regard to a controversial claim, especially when the document we have is on a site we shouldn't use. - Bilby ( talk) 05:30, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
There are licensing records and police investigation documents as well. The court documents are also online at other cites. I will have to search for them tomorrow. Citing to court cases is certainly permitted. Farr4h2004 ( talk) 06:18, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
Also where are you getting that you can’t include scribd documents to refer to the document being cited (for verfiability)?
The girl in the lawsuit also spoke about the incident on Reddit but that’s not exactly a desired cite source. Farr4h2004 ( talk) 06:21, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
Farr4h2004, I removed another claim that cites a source that doesn't actually verify the claim. The Opal Creek registration only supports that Tim Dupell is the agent and manager for Opal Creek; it says nothing about Opal Creek's purpose or it investing in Family Health. Schazjmd (talk) 13:02, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
Ok. I didn’t originally add that info. I just moved it and had not verified it. Thanks for doing so. Farr4h2004 ( talk) 16:38, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
I'm not sure what to do about the programming section. It is heavily dependent on primary sources, and more concerning many of those sources are not officially publicly available (internal Elevations handbooks) so they don't seem to be verifiable. Flagging it here as it probably needs a rewrite by reducing the content to what we can source using verifiable references. - Bilby ( talk) 22:08, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
Ok. Well they can still be cited to. And no url needs to be included to the cites. If you’re worried about verifying the sources, you know where to find them. The handbooks are reliable I have checked. They were received from students and parents who were involved with the Elevations program. Farr4h2004 ( talk) 01:41, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
For the record, unsilenced.org has an archive of troubled teen program documents for informational and educational purposes. Farr4h2004 ( talk) 02:09, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
You can email them if you are curious where a document came from. Farr4h2004 ( talk) 02:10, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
You’re not listening. It’s been made clear these are public and you don’t like the answer. Please link your discussion at RSN. Farr4h2004 ( talk) 15:53, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
This program was founded by Kimball DeLaMare. A source was deleted referring to only Balmer and Boardbent but that is because the article was about the Oakley School, another program they founded. I don’t have time at the moment but there are several other sources about DeLaMare that came be used to establish him as a founder. Farr4h2004 ( talk) 16:20, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
Here is one such source listing him as a founder
https://www.deseret.com/1994/8/31/19128203/complex-for-troubled-adolescents-nearly-done Farr4h2004 ( talk) 16:22, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
I believe Family Help and Wellness have at least a part ownership in Elevations RTC. There are documents and sources linked in the article that explain this although they may be in the wrong places. Let's discuss this here before deleting the whole section. If FHW is the parent company, it is definitely relevant information. And there are again sources to reflect this. I believe the structure if set forth in the sales agreement that was made public in a lawsuit involving Aspen Education Group (former parent company) and FHW when the sale of troubled teen programs, including Elevations, was done. There are also corporate records available showing the same. When I have a moment I will check and link them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Farr4h2004 ( talk • contribs) 17:37, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
Here is one source, which is referenced elsewhere in the article. It’s the sale agreement. Tim Dupell, Family Help, AND Opal Creek Capital are listed as signors/managers for Elevations RTC (Syracuse RTC, LLC), which acquired Island View.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Cn4t48w8BG1tnDLl_3aHi6058940Q27K/view?usp=drivesdk Farr4h2004 ( talk) 07:05, 9 June 2022 (UTC)
Steven Stradley is also named in the document in an attached email. Farr4h2004 ( talk) 07:06, 9 June 2022 (UTC)
Opal Creek Capital is also affiliated here https://sec.report/Document/0001461859-09-000001/ Farr4h2004 ( talk) 07:10, 9 June 2022 (UTC)
Hi Stesmo, I wonder if you could explain your reasoning for this diff beyond your edsum? The nutshell on the EL page reads " External links in an article can be helpful to the reader, but they should be kept minimal, meritable, and directly relevant to the article." (my emphasis). The link you removed is surely exactly that. Thanks. - Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 07:33, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
@ Praxidicae why are you deleting references to public records? I am confused? The same material is also referenced in the KUER article. Where does it say they are subject to copyright?
It seems that there have been a few lawsuits against Elevations. In order to better manage this, should we limit it only to lawsuits that have secondary sources? If a lawsuit is dismissed, should it be included? Given how easy it can be to bring a lawsuit in the US, I don't think that the existence of a lawsuit should be sufficient in terms of weight - it should have secondary sources, or if not at a minimum have resulted in a finding against Elevations. Thoughts? - Bilby ( talk) 23:43, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
Has anyone noticed the rise in edits relating to therapeutic boarding schools & Residential treatment centers for this year? a few examples
Aspen Education Group page history ,
Carlbrook page history 1keyhole ( talk) 17:57, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
Hi User:Bilby. Could you explain how BLP has been violated? Thanks very much. - Roxy the dog 12:11, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
You added back content about living people, sourced solely to court documents. Per WP:BLPPRIMARY that is against policy, so I have reverted. In addition, as raised previously, those documents are hosted on Google Docs, where we cannot know if they are the originals or not, and they are the claims made in court by the prosecuting party, not the findings. I'm always worried about relying on prosecution or defence claims, as ultimately you can claim anything in court, and what matters is what the court finds at the end. In this case, due to a settlement, I assume that there were no court findings. - Bilby ( talk) 00:59, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
The article states lawsuits "were subsequently dismissed", a phrase that is then substantiated with a whopping six references. But none of the sources used there are anything other than complex court documents almost nobody will understand, and no secondary sources are listed at all. It's impossible to verify the claim unless you are an attorney, or something. -- 2001:1C06:19C9:400:4C00:50AE:BD63:AC41 ( talk) 13:08, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
"The only thing that has changed..." is an unsourced quotation, in the form of a paraphrase, that an editor is insisting on keeping in the article regarding this organization.
find a source for the additions, or remove it, please. have a Wikipedia day! Saintstephen000 ( talk) 10:00, 1 March 2023 (UTC)