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How does this sentence make sense ("The electrospray ionization technique was first reported by Masamichi Yamashita and John Fenn in 1984."), when it is clearly later stated that actually Dole already published his research on "Molecular Beams of Macroions" in 1968 and clearly called the ionization technique an electrospray? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.181.47.221 ( talk) 07:21, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
"As like charges repel, the liquid pushes itself out of the capillary and forms a mist or an aerosol of small droplets about 10μm across." Since the size of the droplets generated by electrospray depends on too many factors, I would suggest leaving it at "small droplets", without giving a size estimate.
"The proximity of the molecules becomes unstable as the similarly charged molecules come closer together and the droplets once again explode." This would be a good place to talk about the Rayleigh limit. "Explosion" is not the most accurate way of describing the process, there are wonderful pictures outthere showing what happens when a droplet reaches the Rayleigh limit (Gomez and Tang Phys Fluids 1994, Duft et al, Nature 2003).
"Schulz, F.; Franzka, S.; Schmid, G.; Nanostructured Surfaces by Deposition of Metal Nanoparticles by Means of Spray Techniques. Advanced Functional Materials 2002, 12,532-536." Shouldn't we wait a little to see what is the impact of a paper before adding it as a reference? Would I be surprised if it was added here by one of the authors? What would happen if everybody who writes a paper on electrospray adds a referece here?
I thought that in a bulk material like the liquid here there is no net charge so what does this "As like charges repel, the liquid pushes itself out of the capillary" refer to? Is this really a accurate description of what's happening?
Dougher 04:42, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
i dont think so. I believe there is in fact a high voltage power supply on the needle tip which causes the taylor cone to form. the counterelectrode of the high voltage supply goes to a plate which attracts the positively charged droplets. this article doesnt mention it, of course. http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/ms/images/esi-mechanism.gif
I don't see any issues with the linking to Dr. Bokman's dissertation. We are not violating coi, npov or link. It is selective and useful not random or exhaustive, represents scientific consensus, and was not added by Dr. Bokman or any of his associates. I personally would respect a request by Dr. Bokman to not link to his publicly available dissertation if he requests that we not, but there is no rule preventing it being linked to here. Perhaps there may be a better choice of external link but this one is not a bad choice.-- Nick Y. 17:44, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
I do see an issue with linking to a thesis. Who decided that this thesis is so relevant to deserve a link in an Encyclopedia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mgnelu ( talk • contribs) 00:54, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
I see ESI-MS much more than ES-MS. The former makes more sense as an abbreviation for electrospray ionization mass spectrometry. -- Kkmurray 14:33, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
I intend to remove this section. Most of the text would go into the "Ionization Mechanism" section, except the discussion of the charged droplets formation, which would be replaced by a reference to "Electrospray". Mgnelu ( talk) 03:59, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I haven't heard of "static nanospray" - does that imply the existence of a "dynamic nanospray"? Fraction collection during liquid chromatography followed by off-line analysis (by any method) is not an application of electrosprays. It could be mentioned in the topic dedicated to liquid chromatography, but I don't think it belongs here. Any other opinions? Mgnelu ( talk) 06:11, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
As I understand, this article discusses the use of electrospray as ionization source for mass spectrometry. Certain models of commercial air purifiers use electrosprays to ionize airborne particles and remove them from the air, but they are certainly not an application of electrospray ionization in the context of this article. This application seems more appropriate in the context of electrospray. Plus, the reference added in this section is obviously different than the others, I would say in conflict with WP:ADVERT. Mgnelu ( talk) 23:22, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Although most air purifiers work as you correctly stated in the context of electrospray. I placed this section in Liquid Ionisation as the page Electrospray ionisation states that the liquid contains two elements the volatile carrier that evaporates off leaving behind the chemical that is to be studied. This is also how air purifiers that use LiquidIon's work, where a volatile evaporates off and leave behind LiquidIon. As the rest of the applications section describes uses with mass spectrometry, I thought it would be appropriate to include the word 'commercial' before Air Purifier so as to separate it slightly from the other applications. I do not think the reference can be viewed as an advert as it links to a charity that lists many competitive air purifiers that efficiently remove particles from the air
Mike (
talk)
10:25, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 09:49, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
The recent changes, while definitely part of a well intentioned and generally well executed effort by User:Mgnelu to improve this article and other related articles, has resulted in loss of important information and is even misleading. I generally agree with the concept of at least partial merging how it works with ionization mechanism the two are separate for a good reason. How it works is simple and accessible to the non-expert and the ionization mechanism section contains subtle details and ongoing issues of debate for the expert or exceptionally curious. Overall important details have been lost and some statements are now not scientifically well supported as they have been over-simplified. The effort is appreciated but a step backwards might be best before trying this again.-- Nick Y. ( talk) 20:53, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
Kkmurray, I have serious doubts that the reference you added is relevant in the context. Fenn did have very important contributions to electrospray ionization, but he did not discover the liquid dispersion into a fine aerosol by electrosprays and his PNAS paper does not bring anything new in this regard. There are papers that don't deserve the visibility that comes with a reference in wikipedia. I think we should be conservative and cite established papers, with general acceptance in the community. IMHO, the new papers should be scrutinized in the scientific literature before being referenced in wikipedia. Mgnelu ( talk) 03:49, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
I took some photos recently of an ESI source in action. Perhaps one of these photos might be a better illustration of the topics discussed here?
TheTweaker ( talk) 19:57, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
I am really puzzled by the last section of Ionization mechanism: "The analytes are sometimes involved in electrochemical processes, leading to shifts of the corresponding peaks in the mass spectrum." What does this sentence mean? It means nothing to me, and I use ESI daily. The link from "electrochemical processes" takes you to a random point in the middle of the general electrospray page. 149.155.96.6 ( talk) 16:01, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
I have added some extra depth in places...hope you don't mind too much!
I think these are some important points.
I also plan to expand on the LC-MS application section and possibly add LC-MS/MS if you wouldn't mind. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JCoopsflamethrower ( talk • contribs) 09:38, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
Desorption electrospray ionization seems to be a variant of electrospray ionization in which the sample is a (solid) surface while an electrospray gun is used to desorb and ionize small fractions of analytes present in/on it. The way the sample is delivered is slightly different than in the standard electrospray ionization but the concept seems to be too similar to justify separation into two articles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Natriumchloratum ( talk • contribs) 15:27, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
From an analytical chemist's view point, ESI and DESI should not be merged, as ESI is an established technique with numerous applications, while DESI is a relatively new technique that has not been adopted by routine laboratories to a larger extent. If the ESI and DESI texts were merged, it would give the impression that DESI is a significant variant of ESI, while, e.g., the relatively short description of LC-ESI-MS in the ESI article would imply it to be a minor application. In reality, LC-ESI-MS is much more popular than DESI. Also, as DESI does not need sample preparation and enables mass spectrometry imaging unlike traditional ESI, DESI deserves an independent article where these issues are described. Neuloja ( talk) 11:36, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
merge to general topic � DGG ( talk ) 19:43, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
The contactless atmospheric pressure ionization stub is another variant of electrospray ionization that should be covered in the main electrospray ionization article. -- Kkmurray ( talk) 16:15, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
I think intelligent people wrote it - but for average people it is all quite complicated.
I think it would be better if these large articles would be split-up a bit more; introduce the topics, perhaps split it into subpages or something (like history gets a separate article or so). As it is, I was trying to find a simple answer how the charge is generated/measured, and please ... look at how CONVOLUTED the article is. It's not simple at all. Wikipedia is actually becoming worse in the last years compared to other websites that are shorter and simpler, and to the point - often written for pupils. Wikipedia needs to focus on BOTH simplicity, but also accuracy and details; not on the expense of simplicity though. We don't want wikipedia to become only usable for the super-braineys. 2A02:8388:1641:8380:3AD5:47FF:FE18:CC7F ( talk) 23:00, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
Never edited Wikipedia before so hoping someone else can help out.
Under Ionization mechanism, Rayleigh limit leads to Angular resolution. This isn't helpful and is unrelated to the way the term is used here. Ideally I think this would go to something like "Rayleigh Limit of Charge" (which doesn't exist) or some explanation of the mechanism of coulomb explosions/fission — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.29.138.204 ( talk) 18:07, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||
|
How does this sentence make sense ("The electrospray ionization technique was first reported by Masamichi Yamashita and John Fenn in 1984."), when it is clearly later stated that actually Dole already published his research on "Molecular Beams of Macroions" in 1968 and clearly called the ionization technique an electrospray? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.181.47.221 ( talk) 07:21, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
"As like charges repel, the liquid pushes itself out of the capillary and forms a mist or an aerosol of small droplets about 10μm across." Since the size of the droplets generated by electrospray depends on too many factors, I would suggest leaving it at "small droplets", without giving a size estimate.
"The proximity of the molecules becomes unstable as the similarly charged molecules come closer together and the droplets once again explode." This would be a good place to talk about the Rayleigh limit. "Explosion" is not the most accurate way of describing the process, there are wonderful pictures outthere showing what happens when a droplet reaches the Rayleigh limit (Gomez and Tang Phys Fluids 1994, Duft et al, Nature 2003).
"Schulz, F.; Franzka, S.; Schmid, G.; Nanostructured Surfaces by Deposition of Metal Nanoparticles by Means of Spray Techniques. Advanced Functional Materials 2002, 12,532-536." Shouldn't we wait a little to see what is the impact of a paper before adding it as a reference? Would I be surprised if it was added here by one of the authors? What would happen if everybody who writes a paper on electrospray adds a referece here?
I thought that in a bulk material like the liquid here there is no net charge so what does this "As like charges repel, the liquid pushes itself out of the capillary" refer to? Is this really a accurate description of what's happening?
Dougher 04:42, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
i dont think so. I believe there is in fact a high voltage power supply on the needle tip which causes the taylor cone to form. the counterelectrode of the high voltage supply goes to a plate which attracts the positively charged droplets. this article doesnt mention it, of course. http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/ms/images/esi-mechanism.gif
I don't see any issues with the linking to Dr. Bokman's dissertation. We are not violating coi, npov or link. It is selective and useful not random or exhaustive, represents scientific consensus, and was not added by Dr. Bokman or any of his associates. I personally would respect a request by Dr. Bokman to not link to his publicly available dissertation if he requests that we not, but there is no rule preventing it being linked to here. Perhaps there may be a better choice of external link but this one is not a bad choice.-- Nick Y. 17:44, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
I do see an issue with linking to a thesis. Who decided that this thesis is so relevant to deserve a link in an Encyclopedia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mgnelu ( talk • contribs) 00:54, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
I see ESI-MS much more than ES-MS. The former makes more sense as an abbreviation for electrospray ionization mass spectrometry. -- Kkmurray 14:33, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
I intend to remove this section. Most of the text would go into the "Ionization Mechanism" section, except the discussion of the charged droplets formation, which would be replaced by a reference to "Electrospray". Mgnelu ( talk) 03:59, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I haven't heard of "static nanospray" - does that imply the existence of a "dynamic nanospray"? Fraction collection during liquid chromatography followed by off-line analysis (by any method) is not an application of electrosprays. It could be mentioned in the topic dedicated to liquid chromatography, but I don't think it belongs here. Any other opinions? Mgnelu ( talk) 06:11, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
As I understand, this article discusses the use of electrospray as ionization source for mass spectrometry. Certain models of commercial air purifiers use electrosprays to ionize airborne particles and remove them from the air, but they are certainly not an application of electrospray ionization in the context of this article. This application seems more appropriate in the context of electrospray. Plus, the reference added in this section is obviously different than the others, I would say in conflict with WP:ADVERT. Mgnelu ( talk) 23:22, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Although most air purifiers work as you correctly stated in the context of electrospray. I placed this section in Liquid Ionisation as the page Electrospray ionisation states that the liquid contains two elements the volatile carrier that evaporates off leaving behind the chemical that is to be studied. This is also how air purifiers that use LiquidIon's work, where a volatile evaporates off and leave behind LiquidIon. As the rest of the applications section describes uses with mass spectrometry, I thought it would be appropriate to include the word 'commercial' before Air Purifier so as to separate it slightly from the other applications. I do not think the reference can be viewed as an advert as it links to a charity that lists many competitive air purifiers that efficiently remove particles from the air
Mike (
talk)
10:25, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 09:49, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
The recent changes, while definitely part of a well intentioned and generally well executed effort by User:Mgnelu to improve this article and other related articles, has resulted in loss of important information and is even misleading. I generally agree with the concept of at least partial merging how it works with ionization mechanism the two are separate for a good reason. How it works is simple and accessible to the non-expert and the ionization mechanism section contains subtle details and ongoing issues of debate for the expert or exceptionally curious. Overall important details have been lost and some statements are now not scientifically well supported as they have been over-simplified. The effort is appreciated but a step backwards might be best before trying this again.-- Nick Y. ( talk) 20:53, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
Kkmurray, I have serious doubts that the reference you added is relevant in the context. Fenn did have very important contributions to electrospray ionization, but he did not discover the liquid dispersion into a fine aerosol by electrosprays and his PNAS paper does not bring anything new in this regard. There are papers that don't deserve the visibility that comes with a reference in wikipedia. I think we should be conservative and cite established papers, with general acceptance in the community. IMHO, the new papers should be scrutinized in the scientific literature before being referenced in wikipedia. Mgnelu ( talk) 03:49, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
I took some photos recently of an ESI source in action. Perhaps one of these photos might be a better illustration of the topics discussed here?
TheTweaker ( talk) 19:57, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
I am really puzzled by the last section of Ionization mechanism: "The analytes are sometimes involved in electrochemical processes, leading to shifts of the corresponding peaks in the mass spectrum." What does this sentence mean? It means nothing to me, and I use ESI daily. The link from "electrochemical processes" takes you to a random point in the middle of the general electrospray page. 149.155.96.6 ( talk) 16:01, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
I have added some extra depth in places...hope you don't mind too much!
I think these are some important points.
I also plan to expand on the LC-MS application section and possibly add LC-MS/MS if you wouldn't mind. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JCoopsflamethrower ( talk • contribs) 09:38, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
Desorption electrospray ionization seems to be a variant of electrospray ionization in which the sample is a (solid) surface while an electrospray gun is used to desorb and ionize small fractions of analytes present in/on it. The way the sample is delivered is slightly different than in the standard electrospray ionization but the concept seems to be too similar to justify separation into two articles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Natriumchloratum ( talk • contribs) 15:27, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
From an analytical chemist's view point, ESI and DESI should not be merged, as ESI is an established technique with numerous applications, while DESI is a relatively new technique that has not been adopted by routine laboratories to a larger extent. If the ESI and DESI texts were merged, it would give the impression that DESI is a significant variant of ESI, while, e.g., the relatively short description of LC-ESI-MS in the ESI article would imply it to be a minor application. In reality, LC-ESI-MS is much more popular than DESI. Also, as DESI does not need sample preparation and enables mass spectrometry imaging unlike traditional ESI, DESI deserves an independent article where these issues are described. Neuloja ( talk) 11:36, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
merge to general topic � DGG ( talk ) 19:43, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
The contactless atmospheric pressure ionization stub is another variant of electrospray ionization that should be covered in the main electrospray ionization article. -- Kkmurray ( talk) 16:15, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
I think intelligent people wrote it - but for average people it is all quite complicated.
I think it would be better if these large articles would be split-up a bit more; introduce the topics, perhaps split it into subpages or something (like history gets a separate article or so). As it is, I was trying to find a simple answer how the charge is generated/measured, and please ... look at how CONVOLUTED the article is. It's not simple at all. Wikipedia is actually becoming worse in the last years compared to other websites that are shorter and simpler, and to the point - often written for pupils. Wikipedia needs to focus on BOTH simplicity, but also accuracy and details; not on the expense of simplicity though. We don't want wikipedia to become only usable for the super-braineys. 2A02:8388:1641:8380:3AD5:47FF:FE18:CC7F ( talk) 23:00, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
Never edited Wikipedia before so hoping someone else can help out.
Under Ionization mechanism, Rayleigh limit leads to Angular resolution. This isn't helpful and is unrelated to the way the term is used here. Ideally I think this would go to something like "Rayleigh Limit of Charge" (which doesn't exist) or some explanation of the mechanism of coulomb explosions/fission — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.29.138.204 ( talk) 18:07, 23 December 2020 (UTC)