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I have added the totally disputed tag since the article now makes a number of claims that are simply and straightforwardly false. For example, given that many EVP researcher have been sound engineers etc., or have woeked with sound engineers, it simply cannot be true that the only sound engineers who have commented on the methods used to gather EVP have been critical of those methods. Davkal 16:24, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
What's wrong with this way of putting a point by one man:
Scientists who have commented on EVP have said that the phenomenon is almost certainly paranormal in origin. For example, psychologist Andrew Barton (JBPA: 2005) wrote that, "it seems almost impossible to account for many of the messages recorded by Raudive by any non-paranormal means".
Davkal 10:00, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
The summaries of self-published claims by Raudive, Jurgenson, MacRae, and other EVP proponents in this WP article are actually quite unbiased. We have purposely left out citing their more bizarre claims -- for example, Jurgenson wrote of recording 3-way conversations between himself and the ghosts of Hitler and Stalin, Raudive wrote of recording dozens of spirit voices emitted by an acquaintances pet bird (a Budgie), and MacRae writes of EVP leading to his discovery of such things as the "Fifth Dimension" and "Backward Running Time". And those are just a few of many such examples. Most people (except of course those who wish to promote EVP) would agree that these individuals were/are operating in the pseudoscientific milieu far outside of the mainstream and their "work" has no legitimacy or notability aside from that given by the paranormal community. The "Pye" experiments in particular are problematic in that their factuality is based entirely on self-published claims. For WP to single them out as significant within Raudive's body of eccentric "work" violates WP:NPOV#Undue weight and WP:NPOV/FAQ#Pseudoscience. --- LuckyLouie 21:46, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
1. What do you take "self-published" to mean. Macrae, for example, published his work in a per-review scientific journal. What would you like him to have done. 2. The Pye stuff: in all the world only one person seriously disputes this event took place - LuckyLouie. Evidence of fraud: none. Reasons for suspecting fraud: a British newspaper was involved - maybe. Davkal 08:58, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I ask again: if you have any sources asserting the PYE tests did not take place as described then please cite them. In the absence of such sources the removal of a well-sourced description of this well-known event is straightforward POV pushing.
Also, no reason at all has been given for the removal of either the general point about sound engineers being involved in EVP research, or the specific point about Konig. Davkal 09:48, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
We have Fontana's book. We have both Raudive and Bander as sources, and in addition details are all over the internet. We have Peter Hale, an expert in the field of electronic screen suppression who carried out the experiment at Belling and Lee (there were two experiments - one at PYE and one at B & L) saying in a letter to Peter Bander, which he allowed him to quote in his book (which was a source before it was removed), "I cannot explain this in normal physical terms." Yet despite the widespread accounts of these well-known experiments we have not one single source saying the experiments were fraudulent, or that they didn't take place, or anything else that casts doubt in any way. Oh, I forgot, we have some crackpot conspiracy theory, totally dreamt up on, and confined to, this talkpage on Wiki, which hinges completely on the fact that the Sunday Mirror (which at the time was a fairly reputable newspaper) paid for the tests in return for publishing rights. Short of travelling back in time and witnessing the experiments, what kind of evidence would you like? Davkal 13:39, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
But we have other sources. We have Fontana, we have Bander, we have quotes from the technicians who conducted the experiments. You have your opinions but you have nothing which in any way casts doubt on the fact that the experiments took place in the manner described. Davkal 16:16, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Also, re LuckieLouie's non-point and attempt at further ad hominem nonsense, Colin Smythe is a visiting professor in the English Department of the University of Ulster at Coleraine. The publishing company specialises in Irish Literature. Davkal 19:00, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Re ScienceApologist's recent edit. How can it possibly be POV to describe members of Raudive's listening panel as scientists and parapsychologists when they were scientists and parapsychologists (sourced and cited), yet not POV to describe Federlein as a sound engineer (and as representative of sound engineers in general). Davkal 12:05, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Nobody is suggesting that a panel of scientists was convened (to investigate EVP) in the manner you describe. Nobody could read that into what is written. It said quite clearly that Raudive set up a listening panel consisting of scientists and parapsychologists to listen to his recordings. The identities of the people are known and their credentials and qualifcations are not a matter of debate. Your edit is just another example of the way you have systematically gone through the article and removed amended the description of everyone involved in line with your POV. The only people who are allowed to be called "sound engineers" are sceptical sound engineers. The only people who can be called "researchers" are those who arrived at sceptical conclusions. Macrae, for example, is described as a "Scottish paranormal investigator" when we know he was a lecturer in micro-electronics and a former voice recognition specialist for NASA. In short, you are simply pretending that the only people with any qualifications are all on the sceptical side and the rest are "untrained buffoons" as you put it, while in actuality, many of those involved with EVP are far better qualified than the few sceptics whose views feature so prominently. Davkal 12:31, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Scientists were on the panel. This is a simple fact. You don't like it and claim it makes it looks like some high level independent scientific commision was set up. But it doesn't do this. It simply makes it look like raudive invited scientists and parapsychologists to hear and interpret the voices in order to assess their content. And the reason it looks like this is because that's exactly what happened.12:42, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
The fact that they were scientists also shows that they weren't just Raudive's brother, uncle and a few people he met down the pub. What the quote is intended to do is present Raudive in a fair light and to get away from the "one guy sitting in a room making things up" view that was presented previously. Davkal 14:10, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
"we know he was a lecturer in micro-electronics and a former voice recognition specialist for NASA." If we know that, where's the source saying it? You might have a better shot at putting statements like that in the article if you included a source supporting it. -- Minderbinder 14:21, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
To SA: 1. Yes, I told you some of those involved in the listening panels above. 2. How do you know they weren't independent if you don't know who they were or how the panels were assembled?
Milo, yes, Fontana is the source (amongst others) - so in it goes then I suppose? Davkal 14:34, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
How is Fontana saying that Macrae was "a consultant to NASA who has worked [...] on unscrambling the distorted speech of astronauts" an opinion? And how is it unsourced, Fontana is the source. So yes, it is certainly hard to find sources for sources and sources within sources when those initial sources are questioned (e.g. Fontana). Say Macrae was an lecturer in micro-electronics and a voice recognition consultant for NASA. Where would you expect that to be written and what kind of source would you like in, e.g. Fontana - where it is written, for that information? Davkal 16:03, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
So you have no objection to "voice recognition consultant for NASA". Davkal 16:17, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
The point here anyway is the complete double standard used. That is, it is not written, "David Federlein, described as a sound engineer by old chum(p) Robert Carroll" yet this type of doubt-casting qualification and guilt by association description is included everywhere anyone connected with EVP is mentioned. Davkal 16:24, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Complete garbage. We have sourced the point that Macrae worked as a voice recognition consultant for NASA to a book by a well qualified academic. This is not an extraordinary claim. People do work for Nasa. Unless you have some information which casts doubt on this then give it a rest. Davkal 16:45, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Fontana is not a reliable source for who is and isn't a consultant for NASA. If you can find a NASA source for this claim, that'll be fine. Otherwise it needs to be removed. -- ScienceApologist 17:29, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes, but he also says this:
Professor David Fontana is a Ph.D. in psychology, and is currently Distinguished Visiting Fellow at Cardiff University in South Wales, Great Britain, and Professor of Transpersonal Psychology at Liverpool John Moores University, also in Great Britain. In addition he has held invited professorships at the Universities of Minho and of Algarve in Portugal. He is a Fellow of the British Psychological Society, a Chartered Psychologist and a Chartered Counselling Psychologist and the author of 26 books on psychology translated into 25 languages.
and that makes him a fairly distinguished academic who is probably not in the business of lying about so mundane an issue as someone's former job. If you have any evidence that Macrae's credentials are in doubt then please cite them. Davkal 17:32, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Also, I don't see a Royal College of Sound Engineers source for Federlein's credentials. Davkal 17:32, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
What utter rubbish. There is nothing in Wiki rules to say that only NASA can be used as a source for who worked for NASA or anything like it. And we don't need to speculate on the "essence of [[WP:ATT]" because the essense is provided in the "in a nutshell" section, which says "This page in a nutshell: All material in Wikipedia must be attributable to a reliable, published source." And which clearly doesn't say anything like, "all material in Wiki must be attributable to the most appropriate source the most belligerent editors can think of". Davkal 18:28, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Perfectblue, you added "microelectronics lecturer" again without a source. What's your source on this? -- Minderbinder 12:13, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Fate Magazine for starters, plus several articles about EVP and the film White Noise. For example [3]. It's basic biographic information. Haven't you ever read this any of his books?
perfectblue 12:02, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
"Fate Magazine" is harldy a reliable source on such matters and neither is the film "White Noise". The "basic biographical information" should be verified independently. --
ScienceApologist
12:20, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
I notice that you have neglected to include a URL for these pubic records. If you want to know what he did at NASA, he worked on the production of a speech system to mitigate the communications difficulties caused when NASA switched from pure oxygen to a helium-oxygen mix (which was done to reduce the fire risk caused by pure oxygen).
The reason why so many people say that they've worked for NASA is that it is true. Need I remind you that NASA is the world's largest user of oursourcing, and the world's largest provider of research and development grants. Everything from shuttle paint that won't fade under extreme sunlight to mark external hatches with, to sensors to detect changes in air pressure, is designed, developed and built by external companies.
FYI, have you actually read Senkowski's piece?
perfectblue 14:10, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Is [ this] the one you're referring to? -- Minderbinder 14:16, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
If anybody is interested, MacRae was brought into NASA by the SRT after NASA moved their cabin mixtures from pure oxygen to helium-oxygen in order to prevent fires. Which, predictably, caused problems with the crew's speech making it less intelligible during radio communications. He worked on the sealab program and an experimental orbital lab program which was later canceled.
perfectblue 13:00, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
for further verification of MacRae's work with NASA, please check out the work titled "Analysis of Anomalous Audio- and Video-Recordings" presented by German Professor Dr. Ernst Senkowski to the US based "Society For Scientific Exploration" in June 1995. He explicitly references MacRae's work at NASA but he spells his name incorrectly (McRae, not MacRae) meaning that some of you may have missed it in the past.
perfectblue 13:28, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
If anyone is interested please see the mediation case at Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2007-03-13 Electronic Voice Phenomenon. Thanks. —— Eagle101 Need help? 22:11, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
It's very noticeable the none of the so-called sceptics have responded yet to the mediation request. Much better to simply prevent and NPOV stuff by constantly reverting or removing anything that doesn't tally with your POV and then citing ludicrous imaginary interpretations of Wiki rules in support. If you're so sure of your position then join the mediation. Davkal 19:38, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
What does Tom's position have to do with it? Also, let's go for formal mediation. Then at least when the ridiculous interpretation of rules you keep citing are shown to be ridiculous you won't be able to just ignore it. Davkal 20:02, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
The background material on EVP's paranormal proponents is too extensive for NPoV and I would like to suggest that some of the detail be merged into their separate articles. Gwen Gale 21:10, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
perfectblue 11:24, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
I've moved this here...
In the 1920s, the American inventor Thomas Edison told a reporter with Scientific American that he was working on a machine that could contact the dead, and the story was printed in many newspapers. However, Edison announced a few years later that he had been making a joke at the reporter's expense, and that he had not been working on such a device. [1]
... in case anyone feels it should go in a trivia section or something like that. The reason I pulled it from the article is that it was in the section on famous investigators of EVP, whereas if you read the sentence, Edison actually says that he was not investigating the subject - and while Edison is certainly notable, this particular joke might not be. SheffieldSteel 22:27, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I think we're devoting far too much time and energy to describing MacRae - or rather, to fighting over which words should be used to describe him. One side doesn't want to see ad hominem remarks that cast his research in a bad light; the other doesn't want to see descriptions of academic or NASA connections that given the impression that he is a more respected or mainstream scientific figure than he is.
This is particularly odd considering that Baruss's name isn't even mentioned until the very end of the paragraph describing his work. I think the only way to avoid accusations of POV pushing is to use no descriptives of MacRae at all.
Personally I feel this is a shame, because the reader probably ought to know that he has a background in investigating the paranormal, and in speech recognition (particularly since in the cited work he is approaching the recordings as a speech recognition problem). But if we can't agree on any descriptive phrases, they ought to go, and we should leave the reader to either research further or judge his work without such context.
SheffieldSteel 13:39, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Good luck finding an the lecturing role for a British college over 20 years ago when computerized records weren't generally in existence. Don't ask for the impossible. It does nothing but damage your own credibility. Can you independently verify Bauss' background in the same way that you are asking of Macrae?
perfectblue 14:20, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
No. 1) It only proves that he's on the staff, not what he does. He could be a junior researcher, or even a librarian. 2) All of his actual background information is on a self published website. If paper or book written by Macrae doesn't count, then a self published website by Baruss doesn't count either.
Based on SA's arguments for Macrae, it would need to be a third party source from somebody who disagrees with Baruss' work, and it can't be in a "popular publication" either. Find me a copy of his payslip from several decades ago, or a peer reviewed paper by somebody who doesn't support his work work that was published in a mainstream journal. Better yet, find me records of a somewhere he worked 20+ years ago, prior to the mass computerization of employee records.
That's what SA is asking me for, it's only fair that I ask you for the same, isn't it?
perfectblue 14:43, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
I would like to say that one reason it may be a bit hard (but not at all impossible) to find credentialed scientists and academics working on this topic is that it is widely discredited in both the science community and among audio engineers. Aside from spurious electromagnetic interference, cross talk and what have you, hearing voices in static is spot on like seeing faces in clouds. Gwen Gale 14:33, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Another reason is that a lot of the research was done in Europe, 30 years ago. You can't google it from the US.
Incidentally, I'd be most grateful if you could find me some of these "credentialed scientist" whose work has "widely discredited" EVP. So far, Baruss is the closest that there is here to anybody qualified in the field finding against EVP.
perfectblue 14:43, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
The human brain and ear are both hard wired by nature (so to speak) to be keenly sensitive to the human voice, hence folks tend to be able to hear even the faintest bits of radio interference cropping up in audio devices and even spurious bursts of noise or only the random patterns of static (white noise) can trick our finely tuned heads into hearing stuff as faint voices. If editors want the article to also report on the paranormal claims that's ok since they're notable but I truly don't see what all the fuss is about. We hear voices in static like we see faces (another thing our vision system is finely atuned to spot) in clouds and some people want to read more into it than is already thoroughly explained. Again, disputing PoVs are ok in the article so long as they're sourced and reasonably weighted/placed in the text. Gwen Gale 17:31, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I see what you're getting at but it is a phenomenon, like an eclipse, optical mirage or a rainbow, with a wholly naturalistc, testable explanation. Gwen Gale 18:53, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't we move on now gentlemen. Davkal 01:04, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
The nonsense you have been writing is extraordinary. I urge you to re-examine it immediately.
One example, written by you:
And yet we have the claim, apparently endorsed by you, that there are scientific explanations for EVP events. Have you no shame. Davkal 01:35, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
As FP Ramsey almost said: what science hasn't said it hasn't said, and it hasn't whistled it either. Davkal 01:39, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
(undent) The bad news: MacRae's article is no longer available at the original location and/or the reference is now broken. The good news, if instead of searching for "Report of an Electronic Voice Phenomenon Experiment inside a Double-Screened Room" you substitute "Anomalous Speech Products" for EVP you can still find it in its entirety. SheffieldSteel 02:31, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Why are we singling out Fate Magazine for the report of Macrae's experiment when we have about 10 different sources for this ranging from a peer-review journal in which it was published, to a book by a noted academic, to a paper delivered to a scientific organisation etc etc. This is a clear attempt to prejudice the reader by associating the whole MacRae story with the most unreliable source we can attribute it to.
I have amended this to avoid the problem of singling out Fate, but it now reads:
But this seems extraordinarily long-winded compared to just saying that it happened and citing the sources as references. Davkal 08:51, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Also, we have about six sources now for Macrae working at NASA and nothing to suggest otherwise. Removing this relevant point is, in my opinion, simple vandalism. Davkal 07:42, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
We don't need NASA, we have six sources and no reason to doubt it. Davkal 11:45, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Why don't you read it. It's you who doesn't understand it. WP:ATT, This page in a nutshell: All material in Wikipedia must be attributable to a reliable, published source. Fontana, senior academic. Davkal 12:01, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
But the Pope didn't. A professor whose field of expertise extends over Macrae's work did. And such a professor is therefore a perfectly reliable source on the people and events that make up his field of expertise. It's not that hard. Davkal 13:09, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I have added the dubious tag to: a) the claim the "a common urban legend" is that Edison was the first EVP reporter; and b) that David federlein is a sound engineer. The Edison one may just be that it is worded very badly, but I don't think this is a common urban legend, indeed it doesn't look like an urban legend at all rather than a well understood misunderstanding, if indeed that turns out to be true. The Federlein one is simply because we have no reputable source to suggest Federlein is a sound engineer, and it is not clear from the source we do have what "sound engineer" entails - looks like an argument from (dubious) authority to me. Davkal 07:56, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I have also added the dubious tag to the "false dilemma" point about MacRae. This is simply unpublished critical speculation by editors here. It may or may not be valid (I think not since the NR response in MacRae's test seems to show that another option was available, and such a further response may not have been warranted in the particular circumstances anyway - who knows?), but in any case such criticism should not be included without a verifiable published source. Davkal 08:30, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
The NR responses would suggest otherwise. And a dilemma is only false if there are other viable options. Nobody has published anything to suggest there were other viable options. Davkal 11:50, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
To say that the questionnaire offered a false dilemma is to say that other viable choices were omitted. Where has the claim that other viable choices were omitted been published. Macrae certainly doesn't say so, and he doesn't call it a false-dilemma quetionnaire. This is merely your unpublished speculative analysis of MacRae's paper. Davkal 12:54, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
And that is your unpublished speculative analysis. Davkal 13:05, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I have also put the dubious tag on the claim that Raudive's interpretations were criticised for being "without logical structure or content" since the source(reputable???), simply doesn't support it. That is, the source says:
It is clear, then, that although the word "nonsensical" is used the examples here are not nonsensical but merely trivial. That is, to comment on the colour of a sweater is perfectly sensible. There is therefore no way we can interpret this in good faith as meaning, "apparent sentences that were without logical structure or content". Words which simply do not appear in the source. Davkal 08:45, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Just a quick note to clear up some confusion.
It was O'Neils Spiricom that was the speech synthesizer. MacRae's ALPHA is a biofeedack device. It was was CONNECTED to a speech synthesizer during initial experiments, but NOT during the experiment discussed on the page.
perfectblue 09:23, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I've read up on David Federlein's background.
He's a member of several skeptics groups including www.skepticality.com, his http://www.randi.org/ handle is fowlsound. Last year he started admininig http://www.skepticwiki.org/ and http://www.skepticwiki.org/blog. His education as a sound engineer comes from this [7] group. Much of his industry experience appears have been gained as a performer.
His home page (down today due to host swapping but due to return tomorrow) listed that he was featured on skeptics dictionary, and that he once interviewed Adam Savage Jamie Hyneman from Mythbusters, though it doesn't name any companies hat he worked for or gigs that he engineered for.
Is their somebody a bit better known that we could quote? Like maybe somebody from a big studio.
perfectblue 11:12, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
We have plenty of sound engineers who we could quote on the "pro-EVP" side, or discuss their involvement in the production of EVP (e.g, Peter Hale, Hans Konig, the technicians fom PYE, Belling & LEE or Radio Luxembourg, Raymond Cass etc etc), but at the moment we're not allowed to use any of them because, as best I remember it, WP:IJUSTMADEITUP forbids it.
Re the point at hand, I think Federlein's credentials to comment here are more as a sceptic than a sound engineer. The way it is it looks like here's some totally neutral sound engineer who felt a professional view of EVP was needed, when it's nearer the mark to say here's this sceptic who wrote an ill-informed hit-piece on EVP and who just happens to have done a bit of recording. Davkal 11:27, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I can't actually find very much to say that he has any actual experience as a sound professional engineer (most of what I've found is self published, and doesn't mention any gigs or organizations other than the one who trained him). Most of what I've found about him is related to his skeptical writings (he admins a couple of skeptic sites and is active on a couple of other websites, too). Does anybody have a resume on him? Who was his last paymaster, does he do concerts or broadcasts, is he a recording engineer or a post recording engineer (does he make recordings, or edit them).
The other thing is that he says that he has 15 years experience with music [8], but he was only 29 when Skeptics dictionary was written (making him 30-31 ish now). Meaning that he either was in the biz part time (garage band, weekend job, etc) or he sidestepped college to play.
His primary point of notability as far as WP:RS is concerned is that he was quoted in skeptdic.
perfectblue 12:44, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Almost certainly not that Peter Hale. He was involved with the tests at Belling and Lee in 1970. Davkal 18:39, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
The point is that previously Federlein was being put forward as in some way representative of professional sound engineers. Then it turns out he is an old mate of Carroll and really part of the sceptical expert-on-everything community. Just anther example of the disingenuous tactics used by Carroll in the Skepdic, about which Carroll himself says, "The reader is forewarned that The Skeptics Dictionary does not try to present a balanced account of occult subjects." Davkal 18:39, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
What evidence do we have that MacRae is a "microelectronics expert"? Has he been certified as such? Has he testified in court as an expert witness in microelectronics? What makes him an "expert" in this particular subject? -- ScienceApologist 12:47, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
We don't need evidence. We need sources. And we have them. Davkal 13:11, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
We have already provided the sources about fifteen times - none self-published. The main one, Fontana says he worked for Nasa and that he is a "leading voice expert". If you don't like these facts, too bad. Davkal 18:30, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
In what way is a senior academic writing about his field of study "unreliable". Davkal 18:42, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
No, we have a senior academic whose field of study covers Macrae's work (as shown by the various posts Fontana holds). As such he is a reliable source about the people and events covered by that field of study. Davkal 18:47, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
No, I say the opposite. I say he is a reliable source about the people and events that fall within his area of his expertise. Davkal 20:47, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Why do we have this at the start: "Electronic Voice Phenomena (EVP) is a term used by paranormal investigators"? Firstly, a lot of people in the field don't actually use it. Macrae prefers ASP, Fontana prefers ITC. Secondly, many people who are not involved in paranormal investigation use the term and, especially since White Noise, it has now pretty much become public property so to speak. Why do we then need to specify it in this way? Davkal 13:41, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Isn't Proponent considered a WTA/weasel word?
perfectblue 16:04, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
With the release of the Hollywood mainstream blockbuster White Noise. Davkal 19:06, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I think mainstream Hollywood film still hits the mark. And the X-Files, and so on and so on. It's not like stone-tape theory which very few people have ever heard of.
Davkal
22:37, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Someone clearly does not think much of wikipedia: [ [9]] SheffieldSteel 18:37, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Davkal, you do realize that "rvv" stands for "revert vandalism", right? -- Minderbinder 18:56, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Vandalism is described as, amongst other things, making any addition, removal, or change of content made in a deliberate attempt to compromise the integrity of Wikipedia. In other word writing in something you know to be false (integrity of Wiki) and removing sourced claims. Also, you do know it's considered a personal attack to cite blocks on an article talk page. Also also, to comment on Tom the way you have above. Davkal 19:12, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Vandalism at Wikipedia is very strictly defined. Davkal will have a hard time justifying his claim to reverting vandalism. -- ScienceApologist 20:41, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
And that's exactly why I removed it with the RVV edit summary. A bad faith edit done knowingly to undermine Wiki integrity. Davkal 12:09, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Louie, I note that you say the screened room allegedly belonged to Belling and Lee and took out a source that replaced the ow deleted fact tag. Are you suggesting that Peter Hale doesn't know where he works. Davkal 20:23, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
In fact, this pargraph is just a farce.
You are surely just having a laugh here. This is all well known and well sourced. We have numerous sources, not all from books by proponents of EVP. The letter from Peter Hale is also well known. It was his letter. To pretend there is some doubt about the very existence of the room, the letter, the tests etc. is just ridiculous. Davkal 20:28, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Re SA's recent edit. Petre Hale is not "a fellow researcher", he was the RF screening expert at Belling and Lee who supervised the test. To describe him as "a fellow researcher" is highly misleading. Davkal 20:54, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Hale's comment was from a letter to Peter Bander, not from an interview. Davkal 21:12, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Here, for example, is the report of it from Senkowski's paper.
After the experiment which had been significant to the experts Mr. Hale wrote a letter to Peter Bander from which he allowed him to quote to the press: "From the results we obtained last Friday, something is happening which I cannot explain in normal physical terms." Several months later Hale confirmed this opinion and added in a letter to Ellis: "….I feel we have something which is not associated with normal radio transmission…." Davkal 21:21, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Also, SA, can you provide details of the source for the "interview" claims you make above. Davkal 21:22, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Another conspiracy theory. Maybe Hale doesn't exist. Maybe there's no defence contractor called Belling and Lee. Maybe Raudive doesn't exist. Or maybe they all do, and maybe the solid published sources we have are right. Davkal 22:35, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Bander is the source for the quote. He recieved one of the letters. The other was sent to david Ellis. Both letters say the same things and this probably explains the slight difference in wording. Matters not anyway, since Bander is the source. Davkal 22:54, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Is there some reason the link to the online version of the MacRae article was removed? Someone has confirmed that the online version is the same as the published version, right? Was there some objection to linking, or is it OK to put the link back? -- Minderbinder 22:22, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
March 2003, Alexander MacRae, a paranormal investigator, conducted a series of recording sessions inside a room that he reported was screened against external audio and RF interference. MacRae connected a human subject to a device of his own design (known as ALPHA) that was intended to convert fluctuations in the RF field picked up around the subject's body into voice-like sounds, including simulating vowel sounds, and send them to an AM radio. [23] Recordings of the radio's output were then analyzed by MacRae. In an attempt to prove that different individuals would interpret the samples the same way, MacRae isolated what he considered to be the strongest anomalies found on the recording and distributed them to 30 volunteers who were asked to identify the words being spoken from a list of alternatives carefully selected by MacRae. Volunteers were required to choose from five choices which did not include options such as "uninteligible" or "not a voice". Based on the environment in which the samples were recorded, and the number of respondents providing what he considered the "correct" interpretation for what the recordings said, MacRae concluded that the samples represented genuine voices whose origins could not be explained through conventional means.[2][24][25][12] MacRae's work was published by the Journal of the Society for Psychical Research in 2005.
This is pretty much full disclosure and accurately stated. Well, except for the fact that MacRae assumed the existence of "mediumistic abilities" as a factor in his workings. And the human body does not emit "RF". --- LuckyLouie 23:40, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Could somebody please check these two pictures and see if they think that they are of the same person [10], [11].
perfectblue 09:43, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
They are almost certainly not the same person. Peter Hale of Belling and Lee must be much older now. Davkal 18:21, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
In 1997, Imants Barušs, of the Department of Psychology at the University of Western Ontario, conducted a series of tests using the methods of EVP investigator Konstantin Raudive, and the work of Instrumental Transcommunication (ITC) researcher Mark Macy, as a guide. A radio was tuned to an empty frequency, and in 81 sessions a total of 60 hours and 11 minutes of recordings were collected. During recordings, a researcher either sat in silence or attempted to make verbal contact with potential sources of EVP. [5]
Barušs did record several voices during the sessions, including one identified independently by two out of the three researchers as saying "Tell Peter". The words themselves were "apparently spoken by a woman’s voice at a regular speed juxtaposed at one point on a cacophony of voices". One of Baruss' co-researchers also "thought that she could identify the voice as that of a woman she had known who was now deceased and whose husband's name had been Peter." Nonetheless, Baruss concluded that since none of the voices spoke in Latvian (Baruss', like Raudive's, native tongue), since none were from Raudive himself, and since none addressed any of the researchers by name, they could not be definitively identified as EVP. He then used this problem of identification to draw the erroneous conclusion that the samples were definitively not EVP. The findings were published in the Journal of Scientific Exploration in 2001.[5]
I forget how it goes. Full disclosure... Davkal 18:21, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Sheffield, we appreciate your effort to satisfy both believers and skeptics. But saying that MacRae's device was "designed to convert electrodermal responses from the subject's body into a more speech like form" is rather generous. According to ( http://www.skyelab.co.uk/review/bb.htm) it is described as "Alpha Unit - to produce a signal based on around 1.2 MHz that is modulated by the interface system so as to produce sounds on the radio." (That's 1200 on your AM radio dial, fellas.) MacRae built the device to mimic human speech (according to http://www.skyelab.co.uk/review/aa.htm) "...to facilitate pattern recognition, it was decided to make the device simulate voiced (vowel) sounds. " and says so several times, as in "to make this sound voice-like, (in order for the hearing to exercise its primary function, that of recognising patterns)". He actually writes that triggering his home-made RF squawker via electrodermal response was intended to "to test for mediumistic abilities". In other words, the closer you look at MacRaes "work", the more you see that the "farady cage" claim is a minor issue. The EVP advocates feel that publishing certain details (the faraday cage, completely incidental to MacRaes "findings") are crucial to proving their point that EVP is legit, and so want to focus only on those, and leave out MacRrae's actual procedures and intentions. For a moment, I thought full disclosure of all MacRae details was appropriate, but now I see it's not a solution. The article would then be 90% MacRae, which is not appropriate. This article should not cater to EVP advocates or be spun to reflect the beliefs of paranormal advocates. The subject of "EVP research" cannot be given undue weight or mischaracterized as anything more than a fringe belief that was investigated by paranormal experimenters. MacRae deserves a mention...a brief mention...and certainly not the ink he's currently getting. The original summary of MacRae created by SA is most appropriate. LuckyLouie 20:19, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
I think one big mistake here is that the only person actually advocating the paranormal origin of EVP is probably Tom. The rest of us are simply trying to have well known facts included in the article citing appropriate sources in an attempt to accurately describe the history and current situation re EVP. A number of others, the pseudosceptics, are resorting to bizarre interpretations of rules to exclude completely some well sourced claims, to present others in extraordinarily POV ways, while presenting the armchair speculation of a few "sceptics" (who may never actually have even heard a single example of alleged EVP between them) as legitimate or default scientific explanations. Let us be clear about this: Carroll, Shermer and the like have not studied EVP, and have no intention of studying EVP, in any way shape or form. Davkal 21:09, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Earlier I said that one of the problems we face is that there's only so many times you can say random noise in one article. It seems I was wrong. You can say it an unlimited number of times. The point being that some sections of the article consist of nothing more than the same point being rehashed again and again. We already have it in the article that this is what sceptics think. One description, a quote and then a list of sources should be more than enough to cover the each point. Davkal 02:37, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
It is also strange that virtually every "sceptical" point raised in the article (all two of them) comes from people who one way or another, make their living out of being a professional doubter. Shermer we know about, Carroll we know about, Federlein we know about. What about Chris French though? Well, it turns out he's the editor of "The sceptic" a CSICOP publication in the UK. And here's how he describes himself in it: "I am biased in my approach to evidence relating to the paranormal…..I make no claim to be a neutral assessor of the evidence". Is there nobody casting doubt on EVP who's not a fully paid up member (and paid member) of the minority, but very vocal, Church of Scientism. Davkal 13:21, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Also, I'm not sure the quote from Professor of Political Correctness Hines is appropriate "the Indians used to believe that the dead spoke as the wind swirled through the trees." Which Indians, the Indians from India or the Native Americans, and if so which ones? All of them? His point being, I take it, that the only people who believe in EVP are as stupid as the Indians. Next he'll be telling us what the stupid superstitious darkies think (you know the ones, bones through their noses, live up trees). Davkal 02:37, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the racist garbage you inserted a few days ago Louie. It astonishes me that you felt your POV pushing was sufficiently important to include this kind of stuff. Replace the word Indian with Jew and you'll probably get the picture. (All part of "my struggle" eh- I forget the German for this phrase) Davkal 01:58, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
How surprising, you miss the point and make something up to argue against. I don't think the word "Jew" is offensive. Therefore my suggestion that you replace "Indian" with "Jew" to see why what is written is offensive clearly shows that that is not my point. My point is, that there is the basic assumption behind Hines' point that the Indians (which is a bit off these days) are stupid, backward supistitious fools. That is, it is enough for Hines merely to liken a belief to one held by the "Indians" to show why it is wrong. That is what is offensive here. Davkal 12:46, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
1. How does this illustrate that the superstition is mistaken?
2. How does it relate to Hines' quite different point?
3. Since when did we use antibacterial soap to ward off demons?
Davkal 15:00, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Even if what you say is right rather than shite, where's the argument for the removal of the other edits. Davkal 21:05, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Firstly, Fontana is a noted academic, who is employed by academic institutions to study the work of Raudive, amongst others. He is therefore as reliable a source as it gets. Secondly, no extraordinary claims are being made here. What we have are staemnents of fact that tests took place, and peoples opinions of those tests are then quoted. Neither is extraordinary in any way. At no point does the text say paranormal occurances took place. Your edits are therefore bad faith removal of sourced material for no other reason than you don't like it. Davkal 21:23, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Re Hines, the points I made, which have not been addressed are: a) Hines presents a simplisitic caricature of Native American beliefs; and b) the role of the Native Americans in his point is that of the obviously deluded fools - so obviously deluded that merely identifying that it was they who held a belief is enough to show why it is wrong.
Davkal
21:37, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
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I have added the totally disputed tag since the article now makes a number of claims that are simply and straightforwardly false. For example, given that many EVP researcher have been sound engineers etc., or have woeked with sound engineers, it simply cannot be true that the only sound engineers who have commented on the methods used to gather EVP have been critical of those methods. Davkal 16:24, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
What's wrong with this way of putting a point by one man:
Scientists who have commented on EVP have said that the phenomenon is almost certainly paranormal in origin. For example, psychologist Andrew Barton (JBPA: 2005) wrote that, "it seems almost impossible to account for many of the messages recorded by Raudive by any non-paranormal means".
Davkal 10:00, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
The summaries of self-published claims by Raudive, Jurgenson, MacRae, and other EVP proponents in this WP article are actually quite unbiased. We have purposely left out citing their more bizarre claims -- for example, Jurgenson wrote of recording 3-way conversations between himself and the ghosts of Hitler and Stalin, Raudive wrote of recording dozens of spirit voices emitted by an acquaintances pet bird (a Budgie), and MacRae writes of EVP leading to his discovery of such things as the "Fifth Dimension" and "Backward Running Time". And those are just a few of many such examples. Most people (except of course those who wish to promote EVP) would agree that these individuals were/are operating in the pseudoscientific milieu far outside of the mainstream and their "work" has no legitimacy or notability aside from that given by the paranormal community. The "Pye" experiments in particular are problematic in that their factuality is based entirely on self-published claims. For WP to single them out as significant within Raudive's body of eccentric "work" violates WP:NPOV#Undue weight and WP:NPOV/FAQ#Pseudoscience. --- LuckyLouie 21:46, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
1. What do you take "self-published" to mean. Macrae, for example, published his work in a per-review scientific journal. What would you like him to have done. 2. The Pye stuff: in all the world only one person seriously disputes this event took place - LuckyLouie. Evidence of fraud: none. Reasons for suspecting fraud: a British newspaper was involved - maybe. Davkal 08:58, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I ask again: if you have any sources asserting the PYE tests did not take place as described then please cite them. In the absence of such sources the removal of a well-sourced description of this well-known event is straightforward POV pushing.
Also, no reason at all has been given for the removal of either the general point about sound engineers being involved in EVP research, or the specific point about Konig. Davkal 09:48, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
We have Fontana's book. We have both Raudive and Bander as sources, and in addition details are all over the internet. We have Peter Hale, an expert in the field of electronic screen suppression who carried out the experiment at Belling and Lee (there were two experiments - one at PYE and one at B & L) saying in a letter to Peter Bander, which he allowed him to quote in his book (which was a source before it was removed), "I cannot explain this in normal physical terms." Yet despite the widespread accounts of these well-known experiments we have not one single source saying the experiments were fraudulent, or that they didn't take place, or anything else that casts doubt in any way. Oh, I forgot, we have some crackpot conspiracy theory, totally dreamt up on, and confined to, this talkpage on Wiki, which hinges completely on the fact that the Sunday Mirror (which at the time was a fairly reputable newspaper) paid for the tests in return for publishing rights. Short of travelling back in time and witnessing the experiments, what kind of evidence would you like? Davkal 13:39, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
But we have other sources. We have Fontana, we have Bander, we have quotes from the technicians who conducted the experiments. You have your opinions but you have nothing which in any way casts doubt on the fact that the experiments took place in the manner described. Davkal 16:16, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Also, re LuckieLouie's non-point and attempt at further ad hominem nonsense, Colin Smythe is a visiting professor in the English Department of the University of Ulster at Coleraine. The publishing company specialises in Irish Literature. Davkal 19:00, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Re ScienceApologist's recent edit. How can it possibly be POV to describe members of Raudive's listening panel as scientists and parapsychologists when they were scientists and parapsychologists (sourced and cited), yet not POV to describe Federlein as a sound engineer (and as representative of sound engineers in general). Davkal 12:05, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Nobody is suggesting that a panel of scientists was convened (to investigate EVP) in the manner you describe. Nobody could read that into what is written. It said quite clearly that Raudive set up a listening panel consisting of scientists and parapsychologists to listen to his recordings. The identities of the people are known and their credentials and qualifcations are not a matter of debate. Your edit is just another example of the way you have systematically gone through the article and removed amended the description of everyone involved in line with your POV. The only people who are allowed to be called "sound engineers" are sceptical sound engineers. The only people who can be called "researchers" are those who arrived at sceptical conclusions. Macrae, for example, is described as a "Scottish paranormal investigator" when we know he was a lecturer in micro-electronics and a former voice recognition specialist for NASA. In short, you are simply pretending that the only people with any qualifications are all on the sceptical side and the rest are "untrained buffoons" as you put it, while in actuality, many of those involved with EVP are far better qualified than the few sceptics whose views feature so prominently. Davkal 12:31, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Scientists were on the panel. This is a simple fact. You don't like it and claim it makes it looks like some high level independent scientific commision was set up. But it doesn't do this. It simply makes it look like raudive invited scientists and parapsychologists to hear and interpret the voices in order to assess their content. And the reason it looks like this is because that's exactly what happened.12:42, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
The fact that they were scientists also shows that they weren't just Raudive's brother, uncle and a few people he met down the pub. What the quote is intended to do is present Raudive in a fair light and to get away from the "one guy sitting in a room making things up" view that was presented previously. Davkal 14:10, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
"we know he was a lecturer in micro-electronics and a former voice recognition specialist for NASA." If we know that, where's the source saying it? You might have a better shot at putting statements like that in the article if you included a source supporting it. -- Minderbinder 14:21, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
To SA: 1. Yes, I told you some of those involved in the listening panels above. 2. How do you know they weren't independent if you don't know who they were or how the panels were assembled?
Milo, yes, Fontana is the source (amongst others) - so in it goes then I suppose? Davkal 14:34, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
How is Fontana saying that Macrae was "a consultant to NASA who has worked [...] on unscrambling the distorted speech of astronauts" an opinion? And how is it unsourced, Fontana is the source. So yes, it is certainly hard to find sources for sources and sources within sources when those initial sources are questioned (e.g. Fontana). Say Macrae was an lecturer in micro-electronics and a voice recognition consultant for NASA. Where would you expect that to be written and what kind of source would you like in, e.g. Fontana - where it is written, for that information? Davkal 16:03, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
So you have no objection to "voice recognition consultant for NASA". Davkal 16:17, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
The point here anyway is the complete double standard used. That is, it is not written, "David Federlein, described as a sound engineer by old chum(p) Robert Carroll" yet this type of doubt-casting qualification and guilt by association description is included everywhere anyone connected with EVP is mentioned. Davkal 16:24, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Complete garbage. We have sourced the point that Macrae worked as a voice recognition consultant for NASA to a book by a well qualified academic. This is not an extraordinary claim. People do work for Nasa. Unless you have some information which casts doubt on this then give it a rest. Davkal 16:45, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Fontana is not a reliable source for who is and isn't a consultant for NASA. If you can find a NASA source for this claim, that'll be fine. Otherwise it needs to be removed. -- ScienceApologist 17:29, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes, but he also says this:
Professor David Fontana is a Ph.D. in psychology, and is currently Distinguished Visiting Fellow at Cardiff University in South Wales, Great Britain, and Professor of Transpersonal Psychology at Liverpool John Moores University, also in Great Britain. In addition he has held invited professorships at the Universities of Minho and of Algarve in Portugal. He is a Fellow of the British Psychological Society, a Chartered Psychologist and a Chartered Counselling Psychologist and the author of 26 books on psychology translated into 25 languages.
and that makes him a fairly distinguished academic who is probably not in the business of lying about so mundane an issue as someone's former job. If you have any evidence that Macrae's credentials are in doubt then please cite them. Davkal 17:32, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Also, I don't see a Royal College of Sound Engineers source for Federlein's credentials. Davkal 17:32, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
What utter rubbish. There is nothing in Wiki rules to say that only NASA can be used as a source for who worked for NASA or anything like it. And we don't need to speculate on the "essence of [[WP:ATT]" because the essense is provided in the "in a nutshell" section, which says "This page in a nutshell: All material in Wikipedia must be attributable to a reliable, published source." And which clearly doesn't say anything like, "all material in Wiki must be attributable to the most appropriate source the most belligerent editors can think of". Davkal 18:28, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Perfectblue, you added "microelectronics lecturer" again without a source. What's your source on this? -- Minderbinder 12:13, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Fate Magazine for starters, plus several articles about EVP and the film White Noise. For example [3]. It's basic biographic information. Haven't you ever read this any of his books?
perfectblue 12:02, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
"Fate Magazine" is harldy a reliable source on such matters and neither is the film "White Noise". The "basic biographical information" should be verified independently. --
ScienceApologist
12:20, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
I notice that you have neglected to include a URL for these pubic records. If you want to know what he did at NASA, he worked on the production of a speech system to mitigate the communications difficulties caused when NASA switched from pure oxygen to a helium-oxygen mix (which was done to reduce the fire risk caused by pure oxygen).
The reason why so many people say that they've worked for NASA is that it is true. Need I remind you that NASA is the world's largest user of oursourcing, and the world's largest provider of research and development grants. Everything from shuttle paint that won't fade under extreme sunlight to mark external hatches with, to sensors to detect changes in air pressure, is designed, developed and built by external companies.
FYI, have you actually read Senkowski's piece?
perfectblue 14:10, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Is [ this] the one you're referring to? -- Minderbinder 14:16, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
If anybody is interested, MacRae was brought into NASA by the SRT after NASA moved their cabin mixtures from pure oxygen to helium-oxygen in order to prevent fires. Which, predictably, caused problems with the crew's speech making it less intelligible during radio communications. He worked on the sealab program and an experimental orbital lab program which was later canceled.
perfectblue 13:00, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
for further verification of MacRae's work with NASA, please check out the work titled "Analysis of Anomalous Audio- and Video-Recordings" presented by German Professor Dr. Ernst Senkowski to the US based "Society For Scientific Exploration" in June 1995. He explicitly references MacRae's work at NASA but he spells his name incorrectly (McRae, not MacRae) meaning that some of you may have missed it in the past.
perfectblue 13:28, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
If anyone is interested please see the mediation case at Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2007-03-13 Electronic Voice Phenomenon. Thanks. —— Eagle101 Need help? 22:11, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
It's very noticeable the none of the so-called sceptics have responded yet to the mediation request. Much better to simply prevent and NPOV stuff by constantly reverting or removing anything that doesn't tally with your POV and then citing ludicrous imaginary interpretations of Wiki rules in support. If you're so sure of your position then join the mediation. Davkal 19:38, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
What does Tom's position have to do with it? Also, let's go for formal mediation. Then at least when the ridiculous interpretation of rules you keep citing are shown to be ridiculous you won't be able to just ignore it. Davkal 20:02, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
The background material on EVP's paranormal proponents is too extensive for NPoV and I would like to suggest that some of the detail be merged into their separate articles. Gwen Gale 21:10, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
perfectblue 11:24, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
I've moved this here...
In the 1920s, the American inventor Thomas Edison told a reporter with Scientific American that he was working on a machine that could contact the dead, and the story was printed in many newspapers. However, Edison announced a few years later that he had been making a joke at the reporter's expense, and that he had not been working on such a device. [1]
... in case anyone feels it should go in a trivia section or something like that. The reason I pulled it from the article is that it was in the section on famous investigators of EVP, whereas if you read the sentence, Edison actually says that he was not investigating the subject - and while Edison is certainly notable, this particular joke might not be. SheffieldSteel 22:27, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I think we're devoting far too much time and energy to describing MacRae - or rather, to fighting over which words should be used to describe him. One side doesn't want to see ad hominem remarks that cast his research in a bad light; the other doesn't want to see descriptions of academic or NASA connections that given the impression that he is a more respected or mainstream scientific figure than he is.
This is particularly odd considering that Baruss's name isn't even mentioned until the very end of the paragraph describing his work. I think the only way to avoid accusations of POV pushing is to use no descriptives of MacRae at all.
Personally I feel this is a shame, because the reader probably ought to know that he has a background in investigating the paranormal, and in speech recognition (particularly since in the cited work he is approaching the recordings as a speech recognition problem). But if we can't agree on any descriptive phrases, they ought to go, and we should leave the reader to either research further or judge his work without such context.
SheffieldSteel 13:39, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Good luck finding an the lecturing role for a British college over 20 years ago when computerized records weren't generally in existence. Don't ask for the impossible. It does nothing but damage your own credibility. Can you independently verify Bauss' background in the same way that you are asking of Macrae?
perfectblue 14:20, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
No. 1) It only proves that he's on the staff, not what he does. He could be a junior researcher, or even a librarian. 2) All of his actual background information is on a self published website. If paper or book written by Macrae doesn't count, then a self published website by Baruss doesn't count either.
Based on SA's arguments for Macrae, it would need to be a third party source from somebody who disagrees with Baruss' work, and it can't be in a "popular publication" either. Find me a copy of his payslip from several decades ago, or a peer reviewed paper by somebody who doesn't support his work work that was published in a mainstream journal. Better yet, find me records of a somewhere he worked 20+ years ago, prior to the mass computerization of employee records.
That's what SA is asking me for, it's only fair that I ask you for the same, isn't it?
perfectblue 14:43, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
I would like to say that one reason it may be a bit hard (but not at all impossible) to find credentialed scientists and academics working on this topic is that it is widely discredited in both the science community and among audio engineers. Aside from spurious electromagnetic interference, cross talk and what have you, hearing voices in static is spot on like seeing faces in clouds. Gwen Gale 14:33, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Another reason is that a lot of the research was done in Europe, 30 years ago. You can't google it from the US.
Incidentally, I'd be most grateful if you could find me some of these "credentialed scientist" whose work has "widely discredited" EVP. So far, Baruss is the closest that there is here to anybody qualified in the field finding against EVP.
perfectblue 14:43, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
The human brain and ear are both hard wired by nature (so to speak) to be keenly sensitive to the human voice, hence folks tend to be able to hear even the faintest bits of radio interference cropping up in audio devices and even spurious bursts of noise or only the random patterns of static (white noise) can trick our finely tuned heads into hearing stuff as faint voices. If editors want the article to also report on the paranormal claims that's ok since they're notable but I truly don't see what all the fuss is about. We hear voices in static like we see faces (another thing our vision system is finely atuned to spot) in clouds and some people want to read more into it than is already thoroughly explained. Again, disputing PoVs are ok in the article so long as they're sourced and reasonably weighted/placed in the text. Gwen Gale 17:31, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I see what you're getting at but it is a phenomenon, like an eclipse, optical mirage or a rainbow, with a wholly naturalistc, testable explanation. Gwen Gale 18:53, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't we move on now gentlemen. Davkal 01:04, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
The nonsense you have been writing is extraordinary. I urge you to re-examine it immediately.
One example, written by you:
And yet we have the claim, apparently endorsed by you, that there are scientific explanations for EVP events. Have you no shame. Davkal 01:35, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
As FP Ramsey almost said: what science hasn't said it hasn't said, and it hasn't whistled it either. Davkal 01:39, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
(undent) The bad news: MacRae's article is no longer available at the original location and/or the reference is now broken. The good news, if instead of searching for "Report of an Electronic Voice Phenomenon Experiment inside a Double-Screened Room" you substitute "Anomalous Speech Products" for EVP you can still find it in its entirety. SheffieldSteel 02:31, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Why are we singling out Fate Magazine for the report of Macrae's experiment when we have about 10 different sources for this ranging from a peer-review journal in which it was published, to a book by a noted academic, to a paper delivered to a scientific organisation etc etc. This is a clear attempt to prejudice the reader by associating the whole MacRae story with the most unreliable source we can attribute it to.
I have amended this to avoid the problem of singling out Fate, but it now reads:
But this seems extraordinarily long-winded compared to just saying that it happened and citing the sources as references. Davkal 08:51, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Also, we have about six sources now for Macrae working at NASA and nothing to suggest otherwise. Removing this relevant point is, in my opinion, simple vandalism. Davkal 07:42, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
We don't need NASA, we have six sources and no reason to doubt it. Davkal 11:45, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Why don't you read it. It's you who doesn't understand it. WP:ATT, This page in a nutshell: All material in Wikipedia must be attributable to a reliable, published source. Fontana, senior academic. Davkal 12:01, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
But the Pope didn't. A professor whose field of expertise extends over Macrae's work did. And such a professor is therefore a perfectly reliable source on the people and events that make up his field of expertise. It's not that hard. Davkal 13:09, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I have added the dubious tag to: a) the claim the "a common urban legend" is that Edison was the first EVP reporter; and b) that David federlein is a sound engineer. The Edison one may just be that it is worded very badly, but I don't think this is a common urban legend, indeed it doesn't look like an urban legend at all rather than a well understood misunderstanding, if indeed that turns out to be true. The Federlein one is simply because we have no reputable source to suggest Federlein is a sound engineer, and it is not clear from the source we do have what "sound engineer" entails - looks like an argument from (dubious) authority to me. Davkal 07:56, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I have also added the dubious tag to the "false dilemma" point about MacRae. This is simply unpublished critical speculation by editors here. It may or may not be valid (I think not since the NR response in MacRae's test seems to show that another option was available, and such a further response may not have been warranted in the particular circumstances anyway - who knows?), but in any case such criticism should not be included without a verifiable published source. Davkal 08:30, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
The NR responses would suggest otherwise. And a dilemma is only false if there are other viable options. Nobody has published anything to suggest there were other viable options. Davkal 11:50, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
To say that the questionnaire offered a false dilemma is to say that other viable choices were omitted. Where has the claim that other viable choices were omitted been published. Macrae certainly doesn't say so, and he doesn't call it a false-dilemma quetionnaire. This is merely your unpublished speculative analysis of MacRae's paper. Davkal 12:54, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
And that is your unpublished speculative analysis. Davkal 13:05, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I have also put the dubious tag on the claim that Raudive's interpretations were criticised for being "without logical structure or content" since the source(reputable???), simply doesn't support it. That is, the source says:
It is clear, then, that although the word "nonsensical" is used the examples here are not nonsensical but merely trivial. That is, to comment on the colour of a sweater is perfectly sensible. There is therefore no way we can interpret this in good faith as meaning, "apparent sentences that were without logical structure or content". Words which simply do not appear in the source. Davkal 08:45, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Just a quick note to clear up some confusion.
It was O'Neils Spiricom that was the speech synthesizer. MacRae's ALPHA is a biofeedack device. It was was CONNECTED to a speech synthesizer during initial experiments, but NOT during the experiment discussed on the page.
perfectblue 09:23, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I've read up on David Federlein's background.
He's a member of several skeptics groups including www.skepticality.com, his http://www.randi.org/ handle is fowlsound. Last year he started admininig http://www.skepticwiki.org/ and http://www.skepticwiki.org/blog. His education as a sound engineer comes from this [7] group. Much of his industry experience appears have been gained as a performer.
His home page (down today due to host swapping but due to return tomorrow) listed that he was featured on skeptics dictionary, and that he once interviewed Adam Savage Jamie Hyneman from Mythbusters, though it doesn't name any companies hat he worked for or gigs that he engineered for.
Is their somebody a bit better known that we could quote? Like maybe somebody from a big studio.
perfectblue 11:12, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
We have plenty of sound engineers who we could quote on the "pro-EVP" side, or discuss their involvement in the production of EVP (e.g, Peter Hale, Hans Konig, the technicians fom PYE, Belling & LEE or Radio Luxembourg, Raymond Cass etc etc), but at the moment we're not allowed to use any of them because, as best I remember it, WP:IJUSTMADEITUP forbids it.
Re the point at hand, I think Federlein's credentials to comment here are more as a sceptic than a sound engineer. The way it is it looks like here's some totally neutral sound engineer who felt a professional view of EVP was needed, when it's nearer the mark to say here's this sceptic who wrote an ill-informed hit-piece on EVP and who just happens to have done a bit of recording. Davkal 11:27, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I can't actually find very much to say that he has any actual experience as a sound professional engineer (most of what I've found is self published, and doesn't mention any gigs or organizations other than the one who trained him). Most of what I've found about him is related to his skeptical writings (he admins a couple of skeptic sites and is active on a couple of other websites, too). Does anybody have a resume on him? Who was his last paymaster, does he do concerts or broadcasts, is he a recording engineer or a post recording engineer (does he make recordings, or edit them).
The other thing is that he says that he has 15 years experience with music [8], but he was only 29 when Skeptics dictionary was written (making him 30-31 ish now). Meaning that he either was in the biz part time (garage band, weekend job, etc) or he sidestepped college to play.
His primary point of notability as far as WP:RS is concerned is that he was quoted in skeptdic.
perfectblue 12:44, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Almost certainly not that Peter Hale. He was involved with the tests at Belling and Lee in 1970. Davkal 18:39, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
The point is that previously Federlein was being put forward as in some way representative of professional sound engineers. Then it turns out he is an old mate of Carroll and really part of the sceptical expert-on-everything community. Just anther example of the disingenuous tactics used by Carroll in the Skepdic, about which Carroll himself says, "The reader is forewarned that The Skeptics Dictionary does not try to present a balanced account of occult subjects." Davkal 18:39, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
What evidence do we have that MacRae is a "microelectronics expert"? Has he been certified as such? Has he testified in court as an expert witness in microelectronics? What makes him an "expert" in this particular subject? -- ScienceApologist 12:47, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
We don't need evidence. We need sources. And we have them. Davkal 13:11, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
We have already provided the sources about fifteen times - none self-published. The main one, Fontana says he worked for Nasa and that he is a "leading voice expert". If you don't like these facts, too bad. Davkal 18:30, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
In what way is a senior academic writing about his field of study "unreliable". Davkal 18:42, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
No, we have a senior academic whose field of study covers Macrae's work (as shown by the various posts Fontana holds). As such he is a reliable source about the people and events covered by that field of study. Davkal 18:47, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
No, I say the opposite. I say he is a reliable source about the people and events that fall within his area of his expertise. Davkal 20:47, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Why do we have this at the start: "Electronic Voice Phenomena (EVP) is a term used by paranormal investigators"? Firstly, a lot of people in the field don't actually use it. Macrae prefers ASP, Fontana prefers ITC. Secondly, many people who are not involved in paranormal investigation use the term and, especially since White Noise, it has now pretty much become public property so to speak. Why do we then need to specify it in this way? Davkal 13:41, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Isn't Proponent considered a WTA/weasel word?
perfectblue 16:04, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
With the release of the Hollywood mainstream blockbuster White Noise. Davkal 19:06, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I think mainstream Hollywood film still hits the mark. And the X-Files, and so on and so on. It's not like stone-tape theory which very few people have ever heard of.
Davkal
22:37, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Someone clearly does not think much of wikipedia: [ [9]] SheffieldSteel 18:37, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Davkal, you do realize that "rvv" stands for "revert vandalism", right? -- Minderbinder 18:56, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Vandalism is described as, amongst other things, making any addition, removal, or change of content made in a deliberate attempt to compromise the integrity of Wikipedia. In other word writing in something you know to be false (integrity of Wiki) and removing sourced claims. Also, you do know it's considered a personal attack to cite blocks on an article talk page. Also also, to comment on Tom the way you have above. Davkal 19:12, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Vandalism at Wikipedia is very strictly defined. Davkal will have a hard time justifying his claim to reverting vandalism. -- ScienceApologist 20:41, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
And that's exactly why I removed it with the RVV edit summary. A bad faith edit done knowingly to undermine Wiki integrity. Davkal 12:09, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Louie, I note that you say the screened room allegedly belonged to Belling and Lee and took out a source that replaced the ow deleted fact tag. Are you suggesting that Peter Hale doesn't know where he works. Davkal 20:23, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
In fact, this pargraph is just a farce.
You are surely just having a laugh here. This is all well known and well sourced. We have numerous sources, not all from books by proponents of EVP. The letter from Peter Hale is also well known. It was his letter. To pretend there is some doubt about the very existence of the room, the letter, the tests etc. is just ridiculous. Davkal 20:28, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Re SA's recent edit. Petre Hale is not "a fellow researcher", he was the RF screening expert at Belling and Lee who supervised the test. To describe him as "a fellow researcher" is highly misleading. Davkal 20:54, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Hale's comment was from a letter to Peter Bander, not from an interview. Davkal 21:12, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Here, for example, is the report of it from Senkowski's paper.
After the experiment which had been significant to the experts Mr. Hale wrote a letter to Peter Bander from which he allowed him to quote to the press: "From the results we obtained last Friday, something is happening which I cannot explain in normal physical terms." Several months later Hale confirmed this opinion and added in a letter to Ellis: "….I feel we have something which is not associated with normal radio transmission…." Davkal 21:21, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Also, SA, can you provide details of the source for the "interview" claims you make above. Davkal 21:22, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Another conspiracy theory. Maybe Hale doesn't exist. Maybe there's no defence contractor called Belling and Lee. Maybe Raudive doesn't exist. Or maybe they all do, and maybe the solid published sources we have are right. Davkal 22:35, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Bander is the source for the quote. He recieved one of the letters. The other was sent to david Ellis. Both letters say the same things and this probably explains the slight difference in wording. Matters not anyway, since Bander is the source. Davkal 22:54, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Is there some reason the link to the online version of the MacRae article was removed? Someone has confirmed that the online version is the same as the published version, right? Was there some objection to linking, or is it OK to put the link back? -- Minderbinder 22:22, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
March 2003, Alexander MacRae, a paranormal investigator, conducted a series of recording sessions inside a room that he reported was screened against external audio and RF interference. MacRae connected a human subject to a device of his own design (known as ALPHA) that was intended to convert fluctuations in the RF field picked up around the subject's body into voice-like sounds, including simulating vowel sounds, and send them to an AM radio. [23] Recordings of the radio's output were then analyzed by MacRae. In an attempt to prove that different individuals would interpret the samples the same way, MacRae isolated what he considered to be the strongest anomalies found on the recording and distributed them to 30 volunteers who were asked to identify the words being spoken from a list of alternatives carefully selected by MacRae. Volunteers were required to choose from five choices which did not include options such as "uninteligible" or "not a voice". Based on the environment in which the samples were recorded, and the number of respondents providing what he considered the "correct" interpretation for what the recordings said, MacRae concluded that the samples represented genuine voices whose origins could not be explained through conventional means.[2][24][25][12] MacRae's work was published by the Journal of the Society for Psychical Research in 2005.
This is pretty much full disclosure and accurately stated. Well, except for the fact that MacRae assumed the existence of "mediumistic abilities" as a factor in his workings. And the human body does not emit "RF". --- LuckyLouie 23:40, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Could somebody please check these two pictures and see if they think that they are of the same person [10], [11].
perfectblue 09:43, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
They are almost certainly not the same person. Peter Hale of Belling and Lee must be much older now. Davkal 18:21, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
In 1997, Imants Barušs, of the Department of Psychology at the University of Western Ontario, conducted a series of tests using the methods of EVP investigator Konstantin Raudive, and the work of Instrumental Transcommunication (ITC) researcher Mark Macy, as a guide. A radio was tuned to an empty frequency, and in 81 sessions a total of 60 hours and 11 minutes of recordings were collected. During recordings, a researcher either sat in silence or attempted to make verbal contact with potential sources of EVP. [5]
Barušs did record several voices during the sessions, including one identified independently by two out of the three researchers as saying "Tell Peter". The words themselves were "apparently spoken by a woman’s voice at a regular speed juxtaposed at one point on a cacophony of voices". One of Baruss' co-researchers also "thought that she could identify the voice as that of a woman she had known who was now deceased and whose husband's name had been Peter." Nonetheless, Baruss concluded that since none of the voices spoke in Latvian (Baruss', like Raudive's, native tongue), since none were from Raudive himself, and since none addressed any of the researchers by name, they could not be definitively identified as EVP. He then used this problem of identification to draw the erroneous conclusion that the samples were definitively not EVP. The findings were published in the Journal of Scientific Exploration in 2001.[5]
I forget how it goes. Full disclosure... Davkal 18:21, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Sheffield, we appreciate your effort to satisfy both believers and skeptics. But saying that MacRae's device was "designed to convert electrodermal responses from the subject's body into a more speech like form" is rather generous. According to ( http://www.skyelab.co.uk/review/bb.htm) it is described as "Alpha Unit - to produce a signal based on around 1.2 MHz that is modulated by the interface system so as to produce sounds on the radio." (That's 1200 on your AM radio dial, fellas.) MacRae built the device to mimic human speech (according to http://www.skyelab.co.uk/review/aa.htm) "...to facilitate pattern recognition, it was decided to make the device simulate voiced (vowel) sounds. " and says so several times, as in "to make this sound voice-like, (in order for the hearing to exercise its primary function, that of recognising patterns)". He actually writes that triggering his home-made RF squawker via electrodermal response was intended to "to test for mediumistic abilities". In other words, the closer you look at MacRaes "work", the more you see that the "farady cage" claim is a minor issue. The EVP advocates feel that publishing certain details (the faraday cage, completely incidental to MacRaes "findings") are crucial to proving their point that EVP is legit, and so want to focus only on those, and leave out MacRrae's actual procedures and intentions. For a moment, I thought full disclosure of all MacRae details was appropriate, but now I see it's not a solution. The article would then be 90% MacRae, which is not appropriate. This article should not cater to EVP advocates or be spun to reflect the beliefs of paranormal advocates. The subject of "EVP research" cannot be given undue weight or mischaracterized as anything more than a fringe belief that was investigated by paranormal experimenters. MacRae deserves a mention...a brief mention...and certainly not the ink he's currently getting. The original summary of MacRae created by SA is most appropriate. LuckyLouie 20:19, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
I think one big mistake here is that the only person actually advocating the paranormal origin of EVP is probably Tom. The rest of us are simply trying to have well known facts included in the article citing appropriate sources in an attempt to accurately describe the history and current situation re EVP. A number of others, the pseudosceptics, are resorting to bizarre interpretations of rules to exclude completely some well sourced claims, to present others in extraordinarily POV ways, while presenting the armchair speculation of a few "sceptics" (who may never actually have even heard a single example of alleged EVP between them) as legitimate or default scientific explanations. Let us be clear about this: Carroll, Shermer and the like have not studied EVP, and have no intention of studying EVP, in any way shape or form. Davkal 21:09, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Earlier I said that one of the problems we face is that there's only so many times you can say random noise in one article. It seems I was wrong. You can say it an unlimited number of times. The point being that some sections of the article consist of nothing more than the same point being rehashed again and again. We already have it in the article that this is what sceptics think. One description, a quote and then a list of sources should be more than enough to cover the each point. Davkal 02:37, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
It is also strange that virtually every "sceptical" point raised in the article (all two of them) comes from people who one way or another, make their living out of being a professional doubter. Shermer we know about, Carroll we know about, Federlein we know about. What about Chris French though? Well, it turns out he's the editor of "The sceptic" a CSICOP publication in the UK. And here's how he describes himself in it: "I am biased in my approach to evidence relating to the paranormal…..I make no claim to be a neutral assessor of the evidence". Is there nobody casting doubt on EVP who's not a fully paid up member (and paid member) of the minority, but very vocal, Church of Scientism. Davkal 13:21, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Also, I'm not sure the quote from Professor of Political Correctness Hines is appropriate "the Indians used to believe that the dead spoke as the wind swirled through the trees." Which Indians, the Indians from India or the Native Americans, and if so which ones? All of them? His point being, I take it, that the only people who believe in EVP are as stupid as the Indians. Next he'll be telling us what the stupid superstitious darkies think (you know the ones, bones through their noses, live up trees). Davkal 02:37, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the racist garbage you inserted a few days ago Louie. It astonishes me that you felt your POV pushing was sufficiently important to include this kind of stuff. Replace the word Indian with Jew and you'll probably get the picture. (All part of "my struggle" eh- I forget the German for this phrase) Davkal 01:58, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
How surprising, you miss the point and make something up to argue against. I don't think the word "Jew" is offensive. Therefore my suggestion that you replace "Indian" with "Jew" to see why what is written is offensive clearly shows that that is not my point. My point is, that there is the basic assumption behind Hines' point that the Indians (which is a bit off these days) are stupid, backward supistitious fools. That is, it is enough for Hines merely to liken a belief to one held by the "Indians" to show why it is wrong. That is what is offensive here. Davkal 12:46, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
1. How does this illustrate that the superstition is mistaken?
2. How does it relate to Hines' quite different point?
3. Since when did we use antibacterial soap to ward off demons?
Davkal 15:00, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Even if what you say is right rather than shite, where's the argument for the removal of the other edits. Davkal 21:05, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Firstly, Fontana is a noted academic, who is employed by academic institutions to study the work of Raudive, amongst others. He is therefore as reliable a source as it gets. Secondly, no extraordinary claims are being made here. What we have are staemnents of fact that tests took place, and peoples opinions of those tests are then quoted. Neither is extraordinary in any way. At no point does the text say paranormal occurances took place. Your edits are therefore bad faith removal of sourced material for no other reason than you don't like it. Davkal 21:23, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Re Hines, the points I made, which have not been addressed are: a) Hines presents a simplisitic caricature of Native American beliefs; and b) the role of the Native Americans in his point is that of the obviously deluded fools - so obviously deluded that merely identifying that it was they who held a belief is enough to show why it is wrong.
Davkal
21:37, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
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