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Archive 1 |
When electrolysis is done on a large industrial scale, how pure does the water have to be? Can you just pump water out of a typical river, or would that lead to rapid fouling of the electrolysis unit? Is common tap water pure enough? Or do you have to go to the other extreme, and subject the water to distillation, or reverse osmosis, before adding the electrolyte? Answers to these questions should certainly be added to the article. 199.46.199.231 ( talk) 00:43, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
I'm removing this clause: " while the theoretical maximum efficiency of the electrolysis of water is between 80–94%." The link provided makes no such claim, and in fact gives these numbers for specific systems. It states on page 20: " Norsk Hydro Electrolysers (NHE) is today a leading producer of alkaline electrolysers. Some of NHE’s electrolysers have an efficiency of over 80%..... Efficiency factors for [polymer electrolyte membrane] electrolysers up to 94% are predicted." This is the only place in the article where electrolysis of water is mentioned... 70.179.20.157 ( talk) 11:10, 1 August 2008 (UTC) (andy)
I dropped and did not replace the following formulas during my major reorganization of this page:
I wasn't sure where to put them. If you see somewhere they'd fit, please do. -- Corvi 04:57, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
1. When DC current is applied to the water molecule, which bond is broken first, the hydrogen bond or covalent bond? I'm assuming the hydrogen bond because it is weaker(?)
2. How much current is directly needed to break both covalent bonds of H2O?
3. How much current is directly needed to break one hydrogen bond between water molecules? (or is it heat that breaks it?)
4. Is each hydrogen bubble produced via electrolysis the result of the DC current breaking one covalent bond of the H20 molecule? If not, how much hydrogen is produced per unit of current?
I am presently stumped on this, but I'm sure that as soon as I post this I will experience a palm-forehead bonding.
BonfireBuddhist 01:38, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Should the last lines of the opening section ("The volume of hydrogen gas produced is therefore twice the amount of oxygen gas. Assuming equal temperature and pressure for both gases, the hydrogen gas has twice the volume of the oxygen.") instead state that the mole number and not the volume of hydrogen is twice that of oxygen and then by consequence of the ideal gas law (and the accompanying assumptions) the volumes of the two gases would be in a 2:1 ratio as well.
Hanjabba 06:37, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Is electrolysis of water endo or exo? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 121.223.213.155 ( talk) 11:24, August 22, 2007 (UTC)
I removed the audio file from htis page because it is over one year old, and significant changes have been made to this article since then. It holds no relevance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.49.176.178 ( talk) 20:50, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
We seem to have had several edits and reverts pertaining to the beginning of the section, which says "Hydrogen will appear at the cathode (the negatively charged electrode, where electrons are pumped into the water), and oxygen will appear at the anode (the positively charged electrode)." -- especially, the words "positive" and "negative" being switched around. There's also an accompanying graphic which would seem to imply that hydrogen will appear at the negatively charged electrode, and oxygen will appear at the positively charged anode. Anyone care to clarify? Mikaey ( talk) 07:53, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Hydrogen evolution takes place at the cathode, which is negatively charged. 2H+ + 2 e- -> H2 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.232.37.172 ( talk) 07:27, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
How is the electrolysis of water carried out in zero gravity or in situations where the electrolysis machine may be inverted? Is there a particular shape used to keep the oxygen and hydrogen bubbles separate when the machine is inverted and is a centrifuge used in zero gravity?
VegKilla ( talk) 22:11, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
As is mentioned in the article, adding potentially free heat to the water will result in higher conversion rates. What other methods are used to increase electrolysis efficiency? What research has been done on the effect of electrode materials, electrode topologies, and brine/electrode chemistries? Does modulating the voltage across the electrodes have any influence? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Voxelman ( talk • contribs) 18:13, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
To begin, I'm glad you will be willing to work on this page, Nseidm1. To begin with on this electrolysis of water page the concern is not directly the financial scam but the fraudulent information concerning electrolysis. I would direct you to Internal combustion engine#Engine Efficiency however I suspect the second to last paragraph in that section to have been installed by a sock puppet or one of your collaborators. The efficiency of an ICE is primarily dictated by the difference between the lower and upper temperatures of the engine as described by the Carnot cycle. For a terrestrial engine this means an ICE is limited by the upper thermal stability of the material used to make the engine. As a result most engines don't do better than around 35% at their max efficiency. In a well designed engine 99.9% of the fuel is combusted to H2O and CO2. The small fraction that isn't fully combusted ends up as trace quantities of CO and hydrocarbons. At the same time during combustion some of the nitrogen include in the fuel/air mixture is converted to NOX. As stated before all of these trace exhaust materials are a fraction of a percent of the fuel combusted. A more complete combustion would not add a measurable effect to the systems efficiency for a well designed engine. Meaning no change in MPG. It is true that altering the fuel mixture (gasoline + another fuel) as well as the air to fuel ratio effects the concentration and relative ratio amounts of these trace exhausts. I am not surprised that a gasoline/H2 mixture burns more efficiently (say 99.9% vs 99.99%). I trust there has been extensive studies into the gasoline/hydrogen fuel mixture since nearly every conceivable fuel mixture has been studied, thank you for identifying this literature. I would however, like to point out that most manufactures find it more efficient to add a catalytic converter rather than an exotic fuel mixture. The emission is a tangential point, the core interest is a drastic increase in fuel efficiency and that is the basis of the fraud. Just to address all the issues you mentioned the role of sludge popularized in TV commercial for various brand of gasoline is not an issue for a well designed engine using a well formulated fuel. I have include this information here as a supplement since it is in appropriate to include information on a page about water electrolysis. Please address any further concerns to this talk page.-- OMCV ( talk) 02:52, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
If I can presume your main point is that burning half the fuel doubles the economy. This is true if you get the same result however burning half the fuel releases half the chemical energy. The capture of that chemical energy is still governed by the Carnot cycle no matter how you dress it up. Your suggestions of using leaner fuel is comparable to replacing a six cylinder engine with a four cylinder. Economy improves but performance decreases. In addition if you concern is truly economy and not efficiency than many of your edits need significant revision.
Nothing you added here counters the fundamental points I made above. -- OMCV ( talk) 04:25, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
The relevant description of the physical phenomenon was removed from the fraud section and substituted with a redirect to a product review Hydrogen fuel enhancement which is a prime example of the relevant fraud. The coverage of John Kanzius work may need rewording but the remainder of the information will be reverted to a form that is relevant and meaningful for a page titled electrolysis of water. -- OMCV ( talk) 01:14, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Nseidm1 please use fewer edits when working on pages. Figure out what you are going to write and submit a single edit. This applies to all the pages you work on. In addition above you stated that you are learning this material and as a result you should be very careful with your editing. If you do feel compelled to make them it would be best for you to supply a rational for your edits on the talk page. As for the hydrogen fuel enhancement it is clearly a financially motivated advertisement with serious POV issues. Those POV issues should not migrate beyond that page.-- OMCV ( talk) 07:04, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Section removed as unsourced WP:OR. A couple of links to youtube and news hype do not serve as sources. No doubt there are fraudulent commercial/consumer claims out there, but the content presented requires adequate sourcing and seems rather out of place in a general article on hydrolysis of water. I've added a see also link to Hydrogen fuel enhancement where the subject can be discussed at length. Quite simply, a long unsourced section here won't work. Vsmith ( talk) 12:50, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
In the 'efficiency' section it might be helpful to give as an absolute value the energy in kJ required for electrolysis of water, not just the efficiency as a percentage, in the context of the water fuel myth. The Oxyhydrogen article states that 241.8 kJ of energy is released for every mole of H2 and O2 burned. Does this mean that at least 257 kJ of energy is required to produce a mole of H2 by electrolysis (equivalent to the maximum efficiency of 94%)? Strayan ( talk) 05:12, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
I have nominated Electrolysis system for deletion. I do not think that this article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Electrolysis system. Your opinions on the matter are welcome at that same discussion page; also, you are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns. Thank you for your time.
Please contact me if you're unsure why you received this message.
I thought folks here might be interested in this. OMCV ( talk) 01:17, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
In Equations:
In the water at the negatively charged cathode, a reduction reaction takes place, with electrons (e−) from the cathode being given to hydrogen cations to form hydrogen gas (the half reaction balanced with acid):
- Cathode (reduction): 2 H+(aq) + 2e− → H2(g)
At the positively charged anode, an oxidation reaction occurs, generating oxygen gas and giving electrons to the cathode to complete the circuit:
- Anode (oxidation): 2 H2O(l) → O2(g) + 4 H+(aq) + 4e−
The same half reactions can also be balanced with base as listed below. Not all half reactions must be balanced with acid or base. Many do like the oxidation or reduction of water listed here. To add half reactions they must both be balanced with either acid or base.
- Cathode (reduction): 2 H2O(l) + 2e− → H2(g) + 2 OH-(aq)
- Anode (oxidation): 4 OH-(aq) → O2(g) + 2 H2O(l) + 4 e−
Combining either half reaction pair yields the same overall decomposition of water into oxygen and hydrogen:
- Overall reaction: 2 H2O(l) → 2 H2(g) + O2(g)
However, I have learnt from my chemistry lessons (and several other websites use this too) that the following are the half-reactions: (numbers in square brackets are electrode potentials taken from Standard electrode potential (data page))
2 H+ + 2 e- -> H2 [0.0 V] Cathode
4 OH- -> O2 + 2 H2O + 4 e- [+0.40 V] Anode
Alternately,
2 H2O + 2 e- -> H2 + 2 OH- [-0.8277 V] Cathode
2 H2O -> O2 + 4 H+ + 4 e- [+1.23 V] Anode
Can anyone explain this discrepancy? Both sets of equations add up to the overall reactions as well.
However, strangely, if I add the electrode potentials up to obtain the electrode potential of the entire reaction, I get about 0.40V, which is different from the value of -1.23 V apparently given in the "Thermodynamics of the process" Section(?). In addition to this discrepancy, I don't get the info given in the section. What does Eo
ox and Eo
red mean? Also, while this might not be so relevant to this page, what is Gibbs free energy? I've read the article, but I don't get it and how it can apply here.
Can anyone explain?
218.186.9.231 (
talk)
14:40, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
Edit: Apparently, this got deleted because "it's not about improving the article". However, I disagree. While this is mainly due to my failure to understand what was in the article, it can very well be used to improve the article. I have seen a discrepancy in this article that may confuse many people who were taught with different half-equations. This shows that there is insufficient explanation in the article. Clearing this up will definitely help improve this article. 218.186.9.231 ( talk) 10:15, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
Please see your talk page User talk:218.186.9.231 page for an explanation.-- OMCV ( talk) 15:05, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
We learn in school that H+ can not exist in the nature. How would the half-reactions look like if we used H30+ instead of H+? -- Smihael ( talk) 15:11, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
Please answer the following questions directly in the entry, or here - in which case I'll add them to the entry.
Thanks, פשוט pashute ♫ ( talk) 07:26, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
ref 11+13 do not appear valid anymore. Overseer19XX ( talk) 17:26, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
the electrolysis (school experiment) picture at the top of the page shows no requirement (or gives no explanation) of separating the gases produced. Therefore, The actual Gas produced in this manner is Oxyhydrogen/HHO/Browns Gas and not as described in the opening paragraph >Electrolysis of water is the decomposition of water (H2O) into oxygen (O2) and hydrogen gas (H2) due to an electric current being passed through the water. NeiallsWheel ( talk) 23:31, 17 March 2012 (UTC)NeiallsWheel
I've done same research on this topic so far, but haven't seen anything concise that can help so I thought I'd pose some questions here. I'm trying to help my son complete a science experiment for 5th grade. That experiment is to demonstrate electrolysis of water using a 6v lantern battery and a salt solution (I am using filtered water and sea salt, 1 tbsp salt in 1L of water). I have to admit I thought the experiment would be easy for him, but it failed. The 6V battery generated plenty of hydrogen gas but no oxygen that we could discern. We next tried to use a 9VDC transformer powered by 110VAC and the results were similar. Finally I tried 110VAC directly and had success. My questions are:
My apologies for what may be simple questions. ( JT Pickering ( talk) 16:23, 4 May 2008 (UTC))
The oxygen may be combineing with the metal of the + electrode to produce oxidation (corrosion or rust). Try useing baking soda in the water instead of the salt as salt has corrosive qualities. P.S. Try useing stainless steel electrodes, such as old butter knives. These will resist rust and corrosion and are much cheeper than platinum. — WertMooMoo ( talk) 08:52, 28 May 2013 (UTC) WertMooMoo ( talk • contribs) 09:23, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
Interesting how things progress over the years. Your son is attempting this experiment in the 5th grade, we performed this in high school. I have my old high school science chemistry lab book from 1970. It gave 4 sources for DC power: 4 dry cells in series (~6 VDC), a 6 VDC lead acid storage battery, a 6-8 VDC rectifier or a 110 VDC lab outlet with an electric lamp in series to regulate the current (we didn't have the 110 VDC outlet, sounds pretty dangerous though :^{) ). The lab called for 10 ml of concentrated sulfuric acid to be slowly added with stirring to 600 ml of water. The reason for the sulfuric acid is to increase the conductivity of the water. The sulfuric acid is not used up in the electrolysis of the water. The apparatus used platinum electrodes and is exactly like the one described in the main article. (I can provide a drawing of the apparatus if needed) I did get a 2:1 ratio of hydrogen:oxygen with hydrogen at the negative eletrode and oxygen at the positive electrode. You should try to use platinum electrodes because I don't think that copper will produce the same results. Streichre 12:46, 27 June 2008 (CST)
Half-reaction | E° (V) | Ref. |
---|---|---|
Na+ + e− Na(s) | −2.71 | [1] |
2 H+ + 2 e− H2(g) | ≡ 0 | |
O2(g) + 4 H+ + 4 e− 2 H2O | +1.23 | [1] |
Cl2(g) + 2 e− 2 Cl− | +1.36 | [1] |
H2O2(aq) + 2 H+ + 2 e− 2 H2O | +1.78 | [1] |
S2O82− + 2 e− 2SO42− | +2.07 | [1] |
I found the section on efficiency quite confusing, and in particular it was incorrectly using the HHV instead of the Gibbs free energy for efficiency definition. Some references were overly specialistic and others looked like self-promotion or "recentisms". BTW: yes I am an expert. 78.91.103.24 ( talk) 15:24, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
I think it is a mistake to have Wikipedia state that PEM electrolysis of 90% is possible. The source article(sponsored by BP) says:
Efficiency factors for PEM electrolysers up to 94% are predicted, but this is only theoretical at this time. Today, the efficiency factors for PEM electrolysers are lower than for the best alkaline electrolysers.
-- Paulwesterberg ( talk) 16:31, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
I briefly mentioned Hongjie Dai's system, see http://news.stanford.edu/news/2014/august/splitter-clean-fuel-082014.html Honjie Dai's water splitter http://www.technology.org/2014/08/25/scientists-develop-water-splitter-runs-ordinary-aaa-battery/
Not sure though whether it's more efficient/less costly than Daniel Nocera's system, or Bob Boyce's electrolyser. Perhaps the latter 2 should also need to be mentioned.
2A02:A03F:12C7:F000:213:20FF:FE3B:A79E ( talk) 09:11, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
→== OXYHYDROGEN not present in this electrolysis of water section? ==
To keep this acknowledgement simple, please refer to section 18 of this archive (2012) Talk:Electrolysis_of_water/Archive_1 /info/en/?search=Talk:Electrolysis_of_water/Archive_1 Amendments to this learning platform seem to include deletion/eradication of some very basic understandings of history & science
There is an oxyhydrogen page on Wikipedia Is there a date planned for its deletion too? NeiallsWheel ( talk) 19:18, 17 October 2015 (UTC)NeiallsWheel NeiallsWheel ( talk) 19:18, 17 October 2015 (UTC)17/10/2015
VQuakr Page reads *with my proposed addition* Electrolysis of water is the decomposition of water (H2O) into oxygen (O2) and hydrogen gas (H2) due to an electric current being passed through the water.
This technique can be used to make hydrogen fuel (hydrogen gas) and breathable oxygen;
can be produced if the gases are not separated* currently most industrial methods make hydrogen fuel from natural gas instead.
VQuakr Article reads Use at Home Hydrogen can be made at home (often not for any purpose other than blowing up), most often with electrolysis of water. The phrase in brackets (often not for any purpose other than blowing up) should be deleted completely and instead a small explanation (below)complete with a link to this Wikipedia page
In this home surplus solar energy is used to create hydrogen, which is stored and utilized in winter through a fuel cell to create electricity https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hopewell_Project
VQuakr I would also be editing the oxyhydrogen page With this link, and a relevant piece of text to update this educational community with an effective example of an another application for oxyhydrogen (the terms hydroxy and HHO are more commonly used names for oxyhydrogen) this is also a valid case for ensuring that pages for HHO, browns gas, and hydroxy, are commonly directed to the oxyhydrogen page.
Effect of hydroxy (HHO) gas addition on performance and exhaust emissions in compression ignition engines >Ali Can YilmazErinç UludamarKadir Aydin< http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360319910013595
In this study, hydroxy gas (HHO) was produced by the electrolysis process of different electrolytes (KOH(aq), NaOH(aq), NaCl(aq)) with various electrode designs in a leak proof plexiglass reactor (hydrogen generator). Hydroxy gas was used as a supplementary fuel in a four cylinder, four stroke, compression ignition (CI) engine without any modification and without need for storage tanks. Its effects on exhaust emissions and engine performance characteristics were investigated. Experiments showed that constant HHO flow rate at low engine speeds (under the critical speed of 1750 rpm for this experimental study), turned advantages of HHO system into disadvantages for engine torque, carbon monoxide (CO), hydrocarbon (HC) emissions and specific fuel consumption (SFC). Investigations demonstrated that HHO flow rate had to be diminished in relation to engine speed below 1750 rpm due to the long opening time of intake manifolds at low speeds. This caused excessive volume occupation of hydroxy in cylinders which prevented correct air to be taken into the combustion chambers and consequently, decreased volumetric efficiency was inevitable. Decreased volumetric efficiency influenced combustion efficiency which had negative effects on engine torque and exhaust emissions. Therefore, a hydroxy electronic control unit (HECU) was designed and manufactured to decrease HHO flow rate by decreasing voltage and current automatically by programming the data logger to compensate disadvantages of HHO gas on SFC, engine torque and exhaust emissions under engine speed of 1750 rpm. The flow rate of HHO gas was measured by using various amounts of KOH, NaOH, NaCl (catalysts). These catalysts were added into the water to diminish hydrogen and oxygen bonds and NaOH was specified as the most appropriate catalyst. It was observed that if the molality of NaOH in solution exceeded 1% by mass, electrical current supplied from the battery increased dramatically due to the too much reduction of electrical resistance. HHO system addition to the engine without any modification resulted in increasing engine torque output by an average of 19.1%, reducing CO emissions by an average of 13.5%, HC emissions by an average of 5% and SFC by an average of 14%. NeiallsWheel ( talk) 02:09, 19 October 2015 (UTC)NeiallsWheel
And another sourced study
Performance and Exhaust Gas Analysis Of A Single Cylinder Diesel Engine Using HHO Gas (Brown’s Gas)[Download]
C.Naresh, Y.Sureshbabu, S.Bhargavi Devi
http://www.ijer.in/ijer/index.php/explore/layout/issue-archive/volume-3/volume-3-issue-special1 NeiallsWheel ( talk) 08:11, 19 October 2015 (UTC)NeiallsWheel NeiallsWheel ( talk) 08:18, 19 October 2015 (UTC)NeiallsWheel
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Hi Vquakr.....I appreciate your concerns. The anodic/cathodic similarities/relationships between galvanic and electrolytic cells can be a confusing subject but, in my opinion, worthy of discussing in order to convey a true understanding. I tried to simplify it as much as I could but this obviously remained unsatisfactory to you. Do you have any suggestions for further improvements or do you think it is totally unnecessary to begin with. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ChemMater ( talk • contribs)
The first paragraph in this section and the first line in the second paragraph actually work together and it would be better to not separate them. Specifically, where it is stated "it follows that..." is based on 237 kJ divided by [2 * (96485 C/mole)]. As written the "it follows that ..." is too far removed from the 237 kJ for it to be obvious how 1.23 V is obtained. I hope someone more comfortable with editing will fix this.
https://www.iea.org/reports/electrolysers Chidgk1 ( talk) 18:43, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
When electrolysis is done on a large industrial scale, how pure does the water have to be? Can you just pump water out of a typical river, or would that lead to rapid fouling of the electrolysis unit? Is common tap water pure enough? Or do you have to go to the other extreme, and subject the water to distillation, or reverse osmosis, before adding the electrolyte? Answers to these questions should certainly be added to the article. 199.46.199.231 ( talk) 00:43, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
I'm removing this clause: " while the theoretical maximum efficiency of the electrolysis of water is between 80–94%." The link provided makes no such claim, and in fact gives these numbers for specific systems. It states on page 20: " Norsk Hydro Electrolysers (NHE) is today a leading producer of alkaline electrolysers. Some of NHE’s electrolysers have an efficiency of over 80%..... Efficiency factors for [polymer electrolyte membrane] electrolysers up to 94% are predicted." This is the only place in the article where electrolysis of water is mentioned... 70.179.20.157 ( talk) 11:10, 1 August 2008 (UTC) (andy)
I dropped and did not replace the following formulas during my major reorganization of this page:
I wasn't sure where to put them. If you see somewhere they'd fit, please do. -- Corvi 04:57, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
1. When DC current is applied to the water molecule, which bond is broken first, the hydrogen bond or covalent bond? I'm assuming the hydrogen bond because it is weaker(?)
2. How much current is directly needed to break both covalent bonds of H2O?
3. How much current is directly needed to break one hydrogen bond between water molecules? (or is it heat that breaks it?)
4. Is each hydrogen bubble produced via electrolysis the result of the DC current breaking one covalent bond of the H20 molecule? If not, how much hydrogen is produced per unit of current?
I am presently stumped on this, but I'm sure that as soon as I post this I will experience a palm-forehead bonding.
BonfireBuddhist 01:38, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Should the last lines of the opening section ("The volume of hydrogen gas produced is therefore twice the amount of oxygen gas. Assuming equal temperature and pressure for both gases, the hydrogen gas has twice the volume of the oxygen.") instead state that the mole number and not the volume of hydrogen is twice that of oxygen and then by consequence of the ideal gas law (and the accompanying assumptions) the volumes of the two gases would be in a 2:1 ratio as well.
Hanjabba 06:37, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Is electrolysis of water endo or exo? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 121.223.213.155 ( talk) 11:24, August 22, 2007 (UTC)
I removed the audio file from htis page because it is over one year old, and significant changes have been made to this article since then. It holds no relevance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.49.176.178 ( talk) 20:50, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
We seem to have had several edits and reverts pertaining to the beginning of the section, which says "Hydrogen will appear at the cathode (the negatively charged electrode, where electrons are pumped into the water), and oxygen will appear at the anode (the positively charged electrode)." -- especially, the words "positive" and "negative" being switched around. There's also an accompanying graphic which would seem to imply that hydrogen will appear at the negatively charged electrode, and oxygen will appear at the positively charged anode. Anyone care to clarify? Mikaey ( talk) 07:53, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Hydrogen evolution takes place at the cathode, which is negatively charged. 2H+ + 2 e- -> H2 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.232.37.172 ( talk) 07:27, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
How is the electrolysis of water carried out in zero gravity or in situations where the electrolysis machine may be inverted? Is there a particular shape used to keep the oxygen and hydrogen bubbles separate when the machine is inverted and is a centrifuge used in zero gravity?
VegKilla ( talk) 22:11, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
As is mentioned in the article, adding potentially free heat to the water will result in higher conversion rates. What other methods are used to increase electrolysis efficiency? What research has been done on the effect of electrode materials, electrode topologies, and brine/electrode chemistries? Does modulating the voltage across the electrodes have any influence? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Voxelman ( talk • contribs) 18:13, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
To begin, I'm glad you will be willing to work on this page, Nseidm1. To begin with on this electrolysis of water page the concern is not directly the financial scam but the fraudulent information concerning electrolysis. I would direct you to Internal combustion engine#Engine Efficiency however I suspect the second to last paragraph in that section to have been installed by a sock puppet or one of your collaborators. The efficiency of an ICE is primarily dictated by the difference between the lower and upper temperatures of the engine as described by the Carnot cycle. For a terrestrial engine this means an ICE is limited by the upper thermal stability of the material used to make the engine. As a result most engines don't do better than around 35% at their max efficiency. In a well designed engine 99.9% of the fuel is combusted to H2O and CO2. The small fraction that isn't fully combusted ends up as trace quantities of CO and hydrocarbons. At the same time during combustion some of the nitrogen include in the fuel/air mixture is converted to NOX. As stated before all of these trace exhaust materials are a fraction of a percent of the fuel combusted. A more complete combustion would not add a measurable effect to the systems efficiency for a well designed engine. Meaning no change in MPG. It is true that altering the fuel mixture (gasoline + another fuel) as well as the air to fuel ratio effects the concentration and relative ratio amounts of these trace exhausts. I am not surprised that a gasoline/H2 mixture burns more efficiently (say 99.9% vs 99.99%). I trust there has been extensive studies into the gasoline/hydrogen fuel mixture since nearly every conceivable fuel mixture has been studied, thank you for identifying this literature. I would however, like to point out that most manufactures find it more efficient to add a catalytic converter rather than an exotic fuel mixture. The emission is a tangential point, the core interest is a drastic increase in fuel efficiency and that is the basis of the fraud. Just to address all the issues you mentioned the role of sludge popularized in TV commercial for various brand of gasoline is not an issue for a well designed engine using a well formulated fuel. I have include this information here as a supplement since it is in appropriate to include information on a page about water electrolysis. Please address any further concerns to this talk page.-- OMCV ( talk) 02:52, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
If I can presume your main point is that burning half the fuel doubles the economy. This is true if you get the same result however burning half the fuel releases half the chemical energy. The capture of that chemical energy is still governed by the Carnot cycle no matter how you dress it up. Your suggestions of using leaner fuel is comparable to replacing a six cylinder engine with a four cylinder. Economy improves but performance decreases. In addition if you concern is truly economy and not efficiency than many of your edits need significant revision.
Nothing you added here counters the fundamental points I made above. -- OMCV ( talk) 04:25, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
The relevant description of the physical phenomenon was removed from the fraud section and substituted with a redirect to a product review Hydrogen fuel enhancement which is a prime example of the relevant fraud. The coverage of John Kanzius work may need rewording but the remainder of the information will be reverted to a form that is relevant and meaningful for a page titled electrolysis of water. -- OMCV ( talk) 01:14, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Nseidm1 please use fewer edits when working on pages. Figure out what you are going to write and submit a single edit. This applies to all the pages you work on. In addition above you stated that you are learning this material and as a result you should be very careful with your editing. If you do feel compelled to make them it would be best for you to supply a rational for your edits on the talk page. As for the hydrogen fuel enhancement it is clearly a financially motivated advertisement with serious POV issues. Those POV issues should not migrate beyond that page.-- OMCV ( talk) 07:04, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Section removed as unsourced WP:OR. A couple of links to youtube and news hype do not serve as sources. No doubt there are fraudulent commercial/consumer claims out there, but the content presented requires adequate sourcing and seems rather out of place in a general article on hydrolysis of water. I've added a see also link to Hydrogen fuel enhancement where the subject can be discussed at length. Quite simply, a long unsourced section here won't work. Vsmith ( talk) 12:50, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
In the 'efficiency' section it might be helpful to give as an absolute value the energy in kJ required for electrolysis of water, not just the efficiency as a percentage, in the context of the water fuel myth. The Oxyhydrogen article states that 241.8 kJ of energy is released for every mole of H2 and O2 burned. Does this mean that at least 257 kJ of energy is required to produce a mole of H2 by electrolysis (equivalent to the maximum efficiency of 94%)? Strayan ( talk) 05:12, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
I have nominated Electrolysis system for deletion. I do not think that this article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Electrolysis system. Your opinions on the matter are welcome at that same discussion page; also, you are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns. Thank you for your time.
Please contact me if you're unsure why you received this message.
I thought folks here might be interested in this. OMCV ( talk) 01:17, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
In Equations:
In the water at the negatively charged cathode, a reduction reaction takes place, with electrons (e−) from the cathode being given to hydrogen cations to form hydrogen gas (the half reaction balanced with acid):
- Cathode (reduction): 2 H+(aq) + 2e− → H2(g)
At the positively charged anode, an oxidation reaction occurs, generating oxygen gas and giving electrons to the cathode to complete the circuit:
- Anode (oxidation): 2 H2O(l) → O2(g) + 4 H+(aq) + 4e−
The same half reactions can also be balanced with base as listed below. Not all half reactions must be balanced with acid or base. Many do like the oxidation or reduction of water listed here. To add half reactions they must both be balanced with either acid or base.
- Cathode (reduction): 2 H2O(l) + 2e− → H2(g) + 2 OH-(aq)
- Anode (oxidation): 4 OH-(aq) → O2(g) + 2 H2O(l) + 4 e−
Combining either half reaction pair yields the same overall decomposition of water into oxygen and hydrogen:
- Overall reaction: 2 H2O(l) → 2 H2(g) + O2(g)
However, I have learnt from my chemistry lessons (and several other websites use this too) that the following are the half-reactions: (numbers in square brackets are electrode potentials taken from Standard electrode potential (data page))
2 H+ + 2 e- -> H2 [0.0 V] Cathode
4 OH- -> O2 + 2 H2O + 4 e- [+0.40 V] Anode
Alternately,
2 H2O + 2 e- -> H2 + 2 OH- [-0.8277 V] Cathode
2 H2O -> O2 + 4 H+ + 4 e- [+1.23 V] Anode
Can anyone explain this discrepancy? Both sets of equations add up to the overall reactions as well.
However, strangely, if I add the electrode potentials up to obtain the electrode potential of the entire reaction, I get about 0.40V, which is different from the value of -1.23 V apparently given in the "Thermodynamics of the process" Section(?). In addition to this discrepancy, I don't get the info given in the section. What does Eo
ox and Eo
red mean? Also, while this might not be so relevant to this page, what is Gibbs free energy? I've read the article, but I don't get it and how it can apply here.
Can anyone explain?
218.186.9.231 (
talk)
14:40, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
Edit: Apparently, this got deleted because "it's not about improving the article". However, I disagree. While this is mainly due to my failure to understand what was in the article, it can very well be used to improve the article. I have seen a discrepancy in this article that may confuse many people who were taught with different half-equations. This shows that there is insufficient explanation in the article. Clearing this up will definitely help improve this article. 218.186.9.231 ( talk) 10:15, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
Please see your talk page User talk:218.186.9.231 page for an explanation.-- OMCV ( talk) 15:05, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
We learn in school that H+ can not exist in the nature. How would the half-reactions look like if we used H30+ instead of H+? -- Smihael ( talk) 15:11, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
Please answer the following questions directly in the entry, or here - in which case I'll add them to the entry.
Thanks, פשוט pashute ♫ ( talk) 07:26, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
ref 11+13 do not appear valid anymore. Overseer19XX ( talk) 17:26, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
the electrolysis (school experiment) picture at the top of the page shows no requirement (or gives no explanation) of separating the gases produced. Therefore, The actual Gas produced in this manner is Oxyhydrogen/HHO/Browns Gas and not as described in the opening paragraph >Electrolysis of water is the decomposition of water (H2O) into oxygen (O2) and hydrogen gas (H2) due to an electric current being passed through the water. NeiallsWheel ( talk) 23:31, 17 March 2012 (UTC)NeiallsWheel
I've done same research on this topic so far, but haven't seen anything concise that can help so I thought I'd pose some questions here. I'm trying to help my son complete a science experiment for 5th grade. That experiment is to demonstrate electrolysis of water using a 6v lantern battery and a salt solution (I am using filtered water and sea salt, 1 tbsp salt in 1L of water). I have to admit I thought the experiment would be easy for him, but it failed. The 6V battery generated plenty of hydrogen gas but no oxygen that we could discern. We next tried to use a 9VDC transformer powered by 110VAC and the results were similar. Finally I tried 110VAC directly and had success. My questions are:
My apologies for what may be simple questions. ( JT Pickering ( talk) 16:23, 4 May 2008 (UTC))
The oxygen may be combineing with the metal of the + electrode to produce oxidation (corrosion or rust). Try useing baking soda in the water instead of the salt as salt has corrosive qualities. P.S. Try useing stainless steel electrodes, such as old butter knives. These will resist rust and corrosion and are much cheeper than platinum. — WertMooMoo ( talk) 08:52, 28 May 2013 (UTC) WertMooMoo ( talk • contribs) 09:23, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
Interesting how things progress over the years. Your son is attempting this experiment in the 5th grade, we performed this in high school. I have my old high school science chemistry lab book from 1970. It gave 4 sources for DC power: 4 dry cells in series (~6 VDC), a 6 VDC lead acid storage battery, a 6-8 VDC rectifier or a 110 VDC lab outlet with an electric lamp in series to regulate the current (we didn't have the 110 VDC outlet, sounds pretty dangerous though :^{) ). The lab called for 10 ml of concentrated sulfuric acid to be slowly added with stirring to 600 ml of water. The reason for the sulfuric acid is to increase the conductivity of the water. The sulfuric acid is not used up in the electrolysis of the water. The apparatus used platinum electrodes and is exactly like the one described in the main article. (I can provide a drawing of the apparatus if needed) I did get a 2:1 ratio of hydrogen:oxygen with hydrogen at the negative eletrode and oxygen at the positive electrode. You should try to use platinum electrodes because I don't think that copper will produce the same results. Streichre 12:46, 27 June 2008 (CST)
Half-reaction | E° (V) | Ref. |
---|---|---|
Na+ + e− Na(s) | −2.71 | [1] |
2 H+ + 2 e− H2(g) | ≡ 0 | |
O2(g) + 4 H+ + 4 e− 2 H2O | +1.23 | [1] |
Cl2(g) + 2 e− 2 Cl− | +1.36 | [1] |
H2O2(aq) + 2 H+ + 2 e− 2 H2O | +1.78 | [1] |
S2O82− + 2 e− 2SO42− | +2.07 | [1] |
I found the section on efficiency quite confusing, and in particular it was incorrectly using the HHV instead of the Gibbs free energy for efficiency definition. Some references were overly specialistic and others looked like self-promotion or "recentisms". BTW: yes I am an expert. 78.91.103.24 ( talk) 15:24, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
I think it is a mistake to have Wikipedia state that PEM electrolysis of 90% is possible. The source article(sponsored by BP) says:
Efficiency factors for PEM electrolysers up to 94% are predicted, but this is only theoretical at this time. Today, the efficiency factors for PEM electrolysers are lower than for the best alkaline electrolysers.
-- Paulwesterberg ( talk) 16:31, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
I briefly mentioned Hongjie Dai's system, see http://news.stanford.edu/news/2014/august/splitter-clean-fuel-082014.html Honjie Dai's water splitter http://www.technology.org/2014/08/25/scientists-develop-water-splitter-runs-ordinary-aaa-battery/
Not sure though whether it's more efficient/less costly than Daniel Nocera's system, or Bob Boyce's electrolyser. Perhaps the latter 2 should also need to be mentioned.
2A02:A03F:12C7:F000:213:20FF:FE3B:A79E ( talk) 09:11, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
→== OXYHYDROGEN not present in this electrolysis of water section? ==
To keep this acknowledgement simple, please refer to section 18 of this archive (2012) Talk:Electrolysis_of_water/Archive_1 /info/en/?search=Talk:Electrolysis_of_water/Archive_1 Amendments to this learning platform seem to include deletion/eradication of some very basic understandings of history & science
There is an oxyhydrogen page on Wikipedia Is there a date planned for its deletion too? NeiallsWheel ( talk) 19:18, 17 October 2015 (UTC)NeiallsWheel NeiallsWheel ( talk) 19:18, 17 October 2015 (UTC)17/10/2015
VQuakr Page reads *with my proposed addition* Electrolysis of water is the decomposition of water (H2O) into oxygen (O2) and hydrogen gas (H2) due to an electric current being passed through the water.
This technique can be used to make hydrogen fuel (hydrogen gas) and breathable oxygen;
can be produced if the gases are not separated* currently most industrial methods make hydrogen fuel from natural gas instead.
VQuakr Article reads Use at Home Hydrogen can be made at home (often not for any purpose other than blowing up), most often with electrolysis of water. The phrase in brackets (often not for any purpose other than blowing up) should be deleted completely and instead a small explanation (below)complete with a link to this Wikipedia page
In this home surplus solar energy is used to create hydrogen, which is stored and utilized in winter through a fuel cell to create electricity https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hopewell_Project
VQuakr I would also be editing the oxyhydrogen page With this link, and a relevant piece of text to update this educational community with an effective example of an another application for oxyhydrogen (the terms hydroxy and HHO are more commonly used names for oxyhydrogen) this is also a valid case for ensuring that pages for HHO, browns gas, and hydroxy, are commonly directed to the oxyhydrogen page.
Effect of hydroxy (HHO) gas addition on performance and exhaust emissions in compression ignition engines >Ali Can YilmazErinç UludamarKadir Aydin< http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360319910013595
In this study, hydroxy gas (HHO) was produced by the electrolysis process of different electrolytes (KOH(aq), NaOH(aq), NaCl(aq)) with various electrode designs in a leak proof plexiglass reactor (hydrogen generator). Hydroxy gas was used as a supplementary fuel in a four cylinder, four stroke, compression ignition (CI) engine without any modification and without need for storage tanks. Its effects on exhaust emissions and engine performance characteristics were investigated. Experiments showed that constant HHO flow rate at low engine speeds (under the critical speed of 1750 rpm for this experimental study), turned advantages of HHO system into disadvantages for engine torque, carbon monoxide (CO), hydrocarbon (HC) emissions and specific fuel consumption (SFC). Investigations demonstrated that HHO flow rate had to be diminished in relation to engine speed below 1750 rpm due to the long opening time of intake manifolds at low speeds. This caused excessive volume occupation of hydroxy in cylinders which prevented correct air to be taken into the combustion chambers and consequently, decreased volumetric efficiency was inevitable. Decreased volumetric efficiency influenced combustion efficiency which had negative effects on engine torque and exhaust emissions. Therefore, a hydroxy electronic control unit (HECU) was designed and manufactured to decrease HHO flow rate by decreasing voltage and current automatically by programming the data logger to compensate disadvantages of HHO gas on SFC, engine torque and exhaust emissions under engine speed of 1750 rpm. The flow rate of HHO gas was measured by using various amounts of KOH, NaOH, NaCl (catalysts). These catalysts were added into the water to diminish hydrogen and oxygen bonds and NaOH was specified as the most appropriate catalyst. It was observed that if the molality of NaOH in solution exceeded 1% by mass, electrical current supplied from the battery increased dramatically due to the too much reduction of electrical resistance. HHO system addition to the engine without any modification resulted in increasing engine torque output by an average of 19.1%, reducing CO emissions by an average of 13.5%, HC emissions by an average of 5% and SFC by an average of 14%. NeiallsWheel ( talk) 02:09, 19 October 2015 (UTC)NeiallsWheel
And another sourced study
Performance and Exhaust Gas Analysis Of A Single Cylinder Diesel Engine Using HHO Gas (Brown’s Gas)[Download]
C.Naresh, Y.Sureshbabu, S.Bhargavi Devi
http://www.ijer.in/ijer/index.php/explore/layout/issue-archive/volume-3/volume-3-issue-special1 NeiallsWheel ( talk) 08:11, 19 October 2015 (UTC)NeiallsWheel NeiallsWheel ( talk) 08:18, 19 October 2015 (UTC)NeiallsWheel
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Hi Vquakr.....I appreciate your concerns. The anodic/cathodic similarities/relationships between galvanic and electrolytic cells can be a confusing subject but, in my opinion, worthy of discussing in order to convey a true understanding. I tried to simplify it as much as I could but this obviously remained unsatisfactory to you. Do you have any suggestions for further improvements or do you think it is totally unnecessary to begin with. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ChemMater ( talk • contribs)
The first paragraph in this section and the first line in the second paragraph actually work together and it would be better to not separate them. Specifically, where it is stated "it follows that..." is based on 237 kJ divided by [2 * (96485 C/mole)]. As written the "it follows that ..." is too far removed from the 237 kJ for it to be obvious how 1.23 V is obtained. I hope someone more comfortable with editing will fix this.
https://www.iea.org/reports/electrolysers Chidgk1 ( talk) 18:43, 30 April 2023 (UTC)