Experience from previous reviews has shown me that some people hate this review table, i.e. it can make responses harder. I just find it keeps the review logical on my end. Please feel free to answer within the table, or below the table and refer to the item, e.g. 1a.1 - I will number all my comments to allow for this referencing.
At this point I need to raise a major concern about the use of {{excerpts}}. There are a lot of sections based on other articles, only one of which is a GA. I can't find a policy or guideline on this, but surely the text could and should be brought into this article so it is stable and the qualiy of the article can be monitored and maintained? To be honest if you disagree I'm minded to move to a QF or invite you to seek a second opinion on this point. Can you give me your thoughts on this please?
Mark83 (
talk)
18:41, 27 January 2022 (UTC)reply
I guessed you might comment on this. I hope to submit all the excerpted articles (except maybe bioenergy) for GA when ready - if I submit them now could you informally review just the leads? Problem is that without using excerpts there will be loads of duplication to keep up to date. If that is not possible then I will take them out except from the GA one (thus they will be duplicate text but I wrote most of it anyway) and put them back in when the other articles are GA.
Chidgk1 (
talk)
19:20, 27 January 2022 (UTC)reply
I think the text needs to be moved over. I don't see "loads of duplication to keep up to date" and even if there is, it's a small price to pay to get this passed as a GA. See a response to my query here about attribution
[1]. This would tidy up the article too, it looks messy with so main 'main' and 'excerpt' templates.
Mark83 (
talk)
17:06, 28 January 2022 (UTC)reply
I really, really, really do not like excerpts, even one. Fair enough it's from a GA - but I have just wasted time trying to figure out why I couldn't find the caption for an image to copy into the review below. It's because the image is elsewhere. As I said above, the maintainence argument isn't good enough for the problems it causes - particularly for editors not familiar with the excerpt template and usage. And visually it makes the formatting awful. The Coal section is just a sea of links.
Mark83 (
talk)
20:06, 2 February 2022 (UTC)reply
At the moment I think no one else but me is interested in doing much maintenance on these articles (thank you so much to Marshelec for improving them so much but I am sure you would rather be out cycling - enjoy). Of course it would be great if others pile in but I think it is their lack of interest in the subject rather than the excerpt which is putting them off. I have reduced the blueness considerably and am happy to consider any other improvements you suggest for
Coal power in TurkeyChidgk1 (
talk)
12:25, 3 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Comments from User:Marshelec
I have followed the progess of this article since being a previous GA reviewer. Great progress has been made, and I think that GA status is now within reach. Here are my main suggestions for tightening up the content:
reconcile and merge the contents of the sections Policy, and Policy and regulation
relocate worthwhile content from the Smart Grid section into other sections and then delete (Smart Grid is a useless buzzword in my view, and not helped by a rambling and overlong article
Smart grid). I don't see a need for a Smart Grid section in this article, when the most important topics can be covered under other relevant headings.
transfer the useful content from the "Future" section into other relevant sections. It does not seem appropriate to have "Future" as a section heading - it will get outdated too quickly, and there is already future-focussed content in other sections.
Marshelec (
talk)
The paragraph beginng: "In 2021, there is a lot of excess generation capacity;[19] but from 2017 through 2019 less than 1% was exported.." is a bit unclear, but seems to be mostly about cross-border trade in electricity (ie export). Any exported energy appears as increased consumption. However, it may be best to make this clear by creating a further sub-section: Export, and discussing this further. It might also be appropriate to relocate some content about export, from the Trade section.
Moved part of the para to trade section. But sorry I don't understand what you mean "Any exported energy appears as increased consumption."
Chidgk1 (
talk)
11:26, 3 February 2022 (UTC)reply
The sentence beginning: "When the lira falls bilateral contracts are sometimes unable to compete .." seems to be in the wrong place - it is not clearly about consumption. Also, two typos need fixing in that sentence.
Marshelec (
talk)
00:39, 3 February 2022 (UTC)reply
The first sentence in this section comes from the cited source but something is wrong, or the 2021 year was really abnormal. The numbers conflict with what is stated elsewhere (eg about the proprtion coming from coal), and don't line up with the graphic alongside (albeit that it finishes in 2020). This is confusing for the reader, and needs clarification.
Thanks - have amended coal sentence. 2021 was abnormal due to drought (but drought may become the new normal) but I have not updated the graphic yet because (despite a lot of searching) I have not been able to find official figures so am not sure they have been published for 2021 yet. Although I think
Ember (non-profit organisation) is a reliable source their report has lumped together wind and solar whereas I would like to keep them separate on the graphic. It may be that they have added up a lot of monthly figures, so if nothing comes out officially in the next few weeks I may try and do that too. Alternatively I could subtract the Hürriyet reported 10% wind from the Ember reported % for wind and solar.
Chidgk1 (
talk)
11:05, 3 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I suggest that the sentence about the virtual power plant doesn't warrant being included in this section "header". It may be best to relocate to a new sub-section for Distributed energy resources or similar
The sentence including "..target of 32% from renewables by 2030 .." is ok, but for consistency and for its critical importance, I recommend adding a sentence about the suggested timeframe for phase-out of coal.
The sentence beginning: "Distributed generation over 11KW can be connected.." could be relocated to the proposed new sub-section on Distributed energy resources. Also it should be 11 kW.
Marshelec (
talk)
01:03, 3 February 2022 (UTC)reply
The sentence: "The country's theoretical geothermal potential is 60 GW[79] and potential is 4.5 GW." contains a vast range of "potential", and this needs clarification because it is confusing as it stands. (The sentence comes from the lead in the article
Geothermal power in Turkey, so it need amendment in that article as well. The sentence should also be moved towards the end of this section to be adjacent to other content about future prospects. The final sentence could then be rationalised to reduce the duplication of the existing 2 GW installed capacity
The sentence: "As well as the electricity sector in Turkey, geothermal heat is used directly" could be usefully expanded as: "As well as contributing to electricity generation, geothermal energy is also used in direct heating applications."
Marshelec (
talk)
04:42, 16 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Lot's of statements that don't seem to be integrated into the prose. More examples to follow as I continue this review, but an example:
The nationwide blackout in 2015 did not greatly affect Van Province as it was supplied from Iran,[166] the EU interconnection helped restore power,[167] and more integration with other countries would increase resilience - So one single province was supplied by Iran, but a nationwide blackout is still an incredible event, why gloss over it? "and more integration with other countries would increase resilience" again, feels like a throwaway, random statement.
Explained more about the blackout and trying to integrate other stuff better. Due to overfamiliarity with the text I will probably miss some so feel free to tagbomb with "clarify" or somesuch or mention here - whichever is more convenient for you
Chidgk1 (
talk)
09:21, 1 February 2022 (UTC)reply
As the electricity sector in the country burns a lot of coal, the largest source of greenhouse-gas emissions is coal-fired power stations. is a bit redundant. Suggest changing to "Turkey's coal-fired power stations are the largest source of the country's greenhouse-gas emissions".
Mark83 (
talk)
18:03, 4 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Basic grammar error: Imports of gas, mostly for Turkey's power stations, is, is > are. Also the wider sentence is run-on Imports of gas, mostly for Turkey's power stations, is one of the main costs for the economy, and in winter electricity generation is vulnerable to reductions in the gas supply from other countries - shouldn't be a comma after economy. Should be one after winter.
They can be balanced by hydroelectricity. I totally understand the point here. Low wind/lack of sunlight is balanced by hyrdo power. But will all readers necessarily know that?
Each year, approximately 300 TWh of electricity is used in Turkey; this accounts for almost a fifth of the total primary energy consumption forgive a dumb question. So what happens the other four-fifths?
Each year, approximately 300 TWh of electricity is used in Turkey; this accounts for almost a fifth of the total primary energy consumption[8] and a little under 2 kilowatt-hours (kWh) per person per day[9] (or 3.7 MWh per year per person according to another source) less than the OECD average,[3]: 17 but half as much again as the global average.[10] is one huge run-on sentence. Split up or simplify.
The share of electricity in industrial energy use is expected to increase at the expense of the fossil fuel share as Turkey moves to higher tech products - perhaps even overtaking gas to become the largest share at 30% - as industrial coal burning declines and oil remains static First problem is a long run on sentence. But main problem is I am really confused - so electricity is going to increase because industry uses coal and gas instead? But I'm guessing. Could this be clearer? Also "perhaps" is another WTW.
Production and use of some types of electric vehicles, such as cars manufactured by TOGG, may increase demand during the 2020s, and Shura Energy Transition Center, a think tank, has made many recommendations about electric vehicles, such as utilizing synergies between EV charging and renewable energy integration and energy storage. another long run-on sentence.
In 2021, there is a lot of excess generation capacity;[17] but from 2017 through 2019 less than 1% was exported.[18] Consumption is forecast to increase. feels like a collection of random statements, not integrated prose.
Turkey's coal is almost all low calorie lignite, and it is difficult to burn low-calorie coal economically in very small (industrial) power stations > Turkey's coal is almost all low calorie lignite, which is difficult to burn economically in very small (industrial) power stations. The text in italics, not sure there is enough context here. Are we not talking about large scale power stations? So why comment on small industrial power generation?.
Turkey has not ratified the Gothenburg Protocol, which is the international protocol which limits > Turkey has not ratified the Gothenburg Protocol, which limits...
Turkey's coal is almost all low calorie lignite, and it is difficult to burn low-calorie coal economically in very small (industrial) power stations doesn't flow.
In hyrdo - is "its position surrounded by three seas." relevant to hydropower? i.e. is any power generated from seas?
No power generated from seas as far as I know - I did not write the sentence - perhaps the writer is implying that dams on rivers directly to the sea do not annoy the neighbours so may be easier to build, whereas dams on rivers to other countries often do annoy them
Chidgk1 (
talk)
16:53, 22 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Due to changes in rainfall generation varies considerably from year to year > Due to changes in rainfall, generation varies considerably from year to year
Done - if easier for you feel free to directly edit any obvious minor problems (I can always check the meaning has not accidentally been changed) - or indeed ignore anything which a copyedit would surely fix as I can always put it in to the Guild of Copy Editors later if necessary
Chidgk1 (
talk)
17:03, 22 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Due to changes in rainfall generation varies considerably from year to year[a] and, according to S&P Global Platts, when there is drought in Turkey during the peak electricity demand month of August the aim of the State Hydraulic Works to conserve water for irrigation can conflict with the Turkish Electricity Transmission Corporation aiming to generate electricity. very long run-on sentence.
Despite droughts increasing due to climate change hydropower is predicted to remain important for load balancing > Despite droughts increasing due to climate change, hydropower is predicted to remain important for load balancing
Done
According to modelling by Carbon Tracker new wind power > According to modelling by Carbon Tracker, new wind power (N.B. lots of punctuation errors like this, e.g. the following sentence.
Done
Solar potential is very high in Turkey, especially in the south-east and Mediterranean provinces is repetition. Integrate with preceding sentence. This whole (solar) section is very piecemeal - integrate into better prose.
The small-sized geothermal power plant was expanded to the country's biggest one in 2013. > The small-sized geothermal power plant was expanded to become the country's biggest in 2013.
Done
Turkey has no nuclear power plants but is building Akkuyu, which is planned to start generation in 2023, and is expected to last for at least 60 years a bit clumbsy. What about "Turkey first nuclear power plant at Akkuyu is planned to start generation in 2023"
This article suffers a bit from
WP:SEAOFBLUE, i.e. in its broadest terms lots of links, and long ones at that. I get that it is a technical article, so will tend to have more links, but please review if the actual linked text can be lessened? e.g. air pollution from coal-fired power stations in Turkey, does it all need to be linked. And Turkey has not ratified the international protocol to limit fine dust polluting other countries. maybe just link international protocol?
What are your thoughts on the lead?
MOS:REFERS says "If possible, the page title should be the subject of the first sentence". Is the best intoductory sentence(s)? I've looked at other "Electricity sector in..." articles and there isn't a common approach. I do feel however the article dives straight into specifics, rather than giving an overview before getting into specifics? Happy to discuss though.
Mark83 (
talk)
18:03, 4 February 2022 (UTC)reply
many of those burning lignite are subsidized. is too much detail for intro? And leads to a "so what" question. In contrast this is covered better in the main body.
Mark83 (
talk)
18:03, 4 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Not too much detail and "so what" is a good question - I have an answer - but if it is OK with you we can come back to the lead once everything else is sorted
Can you check generation data please. I get there is a 1 year difference - but the text says generation in 2021 was coal 26%, gas 42%, hydro 13% and wind 10%, and the chart say coal 36%, gas 23%, hydro 26% and wind 1%. Something is wrong surely? Did wind increase by a factor of 10? Did hydro double?
It is not surprising for hydro to halve from a rainy year to a drought year, and whether coal or gas take up the slack depends a lot on their relative prices. I tried to explain that in the text somewhere. As for wind you are right there would be a mistake if it changed that much but it has actually grown fairly steadily - do you think I should see if it is possible to move the chart scale to be on the right (or both sides) of the diagram so it is easier to read off the latest year?
Chidgk1 (
talk)
06:44, 5 February 2022 (UTC)reply
By the way you can a similar chart in
Energy in Turkey where I moved labelling to the right - that was quite easy - so could do same with electricity chart if you think better than current labelling - but if so probably best to leave scale on left
Chidgk1 (
talk)
18:00, 22 February 2022 (UTC)reply
2b.
reliable sources are
cited inline. All content that
could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).
Not OR, just a query on accuracy: Imports of gas, mostly for Turkey's power stations, is one of the main costs for the economy, - can you elaborate please? Main costs for the whole economy? And I'm sorry I am having trouble accessing the sources. And it's nothing to do with your referencing.
Yes the whole economy you understood right. I tried to explain in detail at the beginning of the "economics and finance" section. Which sources are a problem please and would you like me to put more cites in the lead (or indeed less or none)? I think there is a tool to check for dead cite links but I cannot remember - if you don't know I could ask at helpdesk.
Chidgk1 (
talk)
07:07, 5 February 2022 (UTC)reply
constructing too much electricity generation capacity can be expensive, both for the government because of energy subsidies and for the private sector because of debt interest., don't think the debt interest thing is right. The reference says debt was used as a result of crises - but that won't always (or even naturally) be the case?
I am not an economist but I understand the
Weighted average cost of capital is becoming even more important, because almost all the cost of wind and solar is capital cost as the operation and maintenance costs are low as they need no fuel. Similarly nuclear fuel costs are low compared to fossil but capital cost to build nuclear is very large. Cost of capital is higher here than for, say, UK wind power as lenders take more risk. So I have added another cite about cost of capital.
Chidgk1 (
talk)
07:19, 5 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Converting existing dams to pumped storage has been suggested as more feasible than new pumped storage. - I know what pumped storage is, needs linked/explained though.
The first 4 images are not representative of the topic at all, or at least not a good way of introducing the topic at the beginning of the article.
Children looking at a museum piece? If that's really how we want to represent the article, at least provide information on when this equipment was used? Where? But I think it should go.
"Nostalgic tramway in Istanbul" - is this article about electricity sector or transport?
Transport is an extremely important deep past and near future consumer of electricity so we need at least one transport pic - I would have liked to add a pic of the
Togg Turkish national car but I could not find one. If you like I could swap it for a high speed rail pic caption to be doneChidgk1 (
talk)
11:21, 28 January 2022 (UTC)reply
"Many electrical consumer goods are exported, such as this Turkish coffee maker" is this article about electricity sector or the Turkish consumer goods manufacturing sector?
Heating water is an important consumer of electricity but willing to delete if you prefer. A pic of a combi boiler would be boring don't you think?
Chidgk1 (
talk)
11:21, 28 January 2022 (UTC)reply
The caption doesn't say that. It talks about exports! And even if you make a caption along those lines, I still don't see the need for it. Contemporary articles don't have such images.
Mark83 (
talk)
17:02, 28 January 2022 (UTC)reply
On reflection have put graph back in with better caption and cited as I think readers can understand the skill levels more quickly than they could from text - however I could also write some text if you think necessary
Chidgk1 (
talk)
10:51, 31 January 2022 (UTC)reply
I still don't see what we're trying to say here. Electricity pole and ferryboat after the 1999 İzmit earthquake - a resilient electricity system is important as earthquakes in Turkey are common - why are we referring to a ferry in the caption (and even why are we using an image in which a ferry is so promient)? Not sure of the relevance? And is the eletrictity pole the Y shaped thing in the foreground? Was it damaged in the earthquake?
"Mosque in Old Halfeti partially submerged by the Birecik Dam on the River Euphrates" tenuous link to the subject. It just seems like a pretty image for the sake of a pretty image.
So you've removed the 2 dam pics that are actually relevant to electricty generation, and kept the image of a mosque which is not at all relevant? I'm confused.
Mark83 (
talk)
17:02, 28 January 2022 (UTC)reply
OK good point - Birecik dam was not noteworthy so replaced pic with pre-Ilusu Dam pic as Ilusu has been noteworthy for decades and explained more in caption. Also added small hydro pic as small hydro rather common here
Chidgk1 (
talk)
08:57, 31 January 2022 (UTC)reply
"Geothermal power off the road to Ephesus" is a strange choice of words. Just put in the location. "off the road" isn't descriptive. There will be many roads this could be.
Yes I struggled when I put this in - it seemed the best pic as the others are poor quality or from far away - but there is hardly any description so I don't know which plant this is - unless you have a better idea for the caption maybe I should just remove it?
Chidgk1 (
talk)
12:28, 3 February 2022 (UTC)reply
File:Hasankeyf - panoramio (1).jpg - I really don't understand the way you seem to be so focused on things impacted by dams. This article is an overview of the Electricity sector in Turkey - a few structures submerged by dams seems like such a niche area of the topic, i.e. undue focus. If it should be covered it all it should be at articles for the damns themselves/localities. Or
Hydroelectricity in Turkey.
Caption of Renewable energy increases employment in Turkey is not an accurate description of the image which says renewable energy can increase employment. And are we happy with the reliability of the source? NPOV?
That caption isn't gramatically correct. But it's also not factually correct. The chart says "renewable energy can increase employment", your caption says it does. Suggestion: "According to a 2021 study, government policies supporting renewable energy may increase employment in Turkey" I'm not sure it needs a reference? (just confirming I didn't ask for that). That can be in the image information, i.e. when clicked on.
Mark83 (
talk)
09:45, 4 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Removed. Looking at the details in the study if I understand it right they are saying that the governments current renewable energy policy is increasing employment but the authors are proposing changes in policy which would increase it further. I'll take the graphic out from here and hopefully explain it better if and when I get around to improving the
renewable energy in Turkey article.
Chidgk1 (
talk)
12:44, 4 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Control room of 2016 Zetes-3 coal-fired power station, which environmentalists would like to put in a museum - not that happy about the text I've put in italics. It reads a bit pointed/POV. I know what you're trying to say, but it doesn't feel encyclopedic.
Mark83 (
talk)
20:06, 2 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Encyclopedias don't have to be humorless! But if you think it is POV and don't have a better suggestion I can remove the second part of the caption if you wish
Chidgk1 (
talk)
12:48, 3 February 2022 (UTC)reply
YThis is an example of preferences. I can't impose my preferences. I wouldn't write this in an article; I know what you mean, but this feels like a newspaper or magazine article tone, not an encyclopedia. But I'll leave it up to you.
Mark83 (
talk)
09:45, 4 February 2022 (UTC)reply
7. Overall assessment.
Mark83 So you are looking for quick replies for the backlog competition in order to finish before the end of month? Or it makes no difference? Anyway I will hopefully be able to respond quickly.
Chidgk1 (
talk)
17:00, 27 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Hi. No, that's irrelevant. It would be in appropriate for me to either rush the review or push you for replies faster than would ordinarily be the case.
Mark83 (
talk)
17:19, 27 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Hello both the reviewer and nominator of the article, I would lay down some of my thoughts about the article below. Do take note that some may be a bit off from the GA criteria.
I think there is a huge gaps of content missing, such as effect on human health, plans for expansion, and toss in some politics as well while we are at it. This article should have good sectioning, as other articles of this kind would based on this one for reference.
Re plans for expansion I think the Russians are still our friends so won't abandon construction of the nuclear plant - hoping for more wind and solar auction announcements - anyway if more info comes out on plans for expansion I will definitely add
Chidgk1 (
talk)
14:18, 10 March 2022 (UTC)reply
Re sections I agree it would be nice to be a model for other "Electricity sector in X" articles and am open to suggestions
Chidgk1 (
talk)
14:18, 10 March 2022 (UTC)reply
Personally, I don't really have huge concerns about sourcing, although archiving the citations at
User:IABot can be handy.
Listing some of the most notable plants would make the article better. For example, in the "Hydro" section, you should list the
Atatürk Dam,
Karakaya Dam, etc.
Using excerpt is a temporarily solution in my opinion. A better way to tackle with summarizing the contents of a sub-article is to rewrite it completely, and then paste that rewrite back to the lead of the sub-article.
Personally, a better image that represent the electricity sector is either: a chart showing the percentage of each sector, or a huge and well-known power plant.
Ah you mean the image that appears at the beginning on mobile phones. I disagree as nowadays transmission is more important than generation I think. But if a particular generation method starts getting expanded rapidly I might change it. Hey if anyone is reading this from Togg please please put a pic on Wikimedia Commons.
Chidgk1 (
talk)
14:18, 10 March 2022 (UTC)reply
"History" section should be placed at the beginning
Again I disagree as I suspect most readers will be more interested in the current situation - but if the new reviewer feels strongly I will move it.
Chidgk1 (
talk)
14:18, 10 March 2022 (UTC)reply
General comment: Definitely good, but in my opinion the article is still falls short of
GA. It is missing criterion 3a, which is the easiest to achieve out of all :)
CactiStaccingCrane (
talk)
12:17, 10 March 2022 (UTC)reply
Hello! I've decided to pick this up. This is my first GA review, so make sure to slam dunk any complaints here or on my talk page in case I mess up. :)
I'd prefer not having too many excerpts.
Coal power in Turkey is a GA itself, so I don't have any problem with this one. Having
Wind power in Turkey in addition isn't a huge problem since there are no policies/guidelines/criterias regarding the usage of excerpts.
Lead
There probably is a good explanation for this, but I was wondering why there are sources in the lead. Since the lead is pretty much a summary,
MOS:LEADCITE says that challengeable things and BLP related material should be sourced, but I don't see either applying here.
I have mixed feelings about this section being at the very end, but the reasoning above seems, eh. The respective MoS doesn't say anything about this, so I guess it's not a problem.
This section has a lot of potential to be expanded: I feel that it's missing something with covering 100 years in just four paragraphs. I have some sources below, and their main points translated into English:
This is mostly about the city of Tarsus alone, but the beginning includes some history too. Page 3 says that in 1875, a French firm got the tenure to install electric street lamps in several Turkish cities (all listed), but "no progress was made." In 1899 they started giving the tenures to different firms. The page also lists in what year some Turkish cities got the electric tenure (1910 to 1920). In 1914, Istanbul started producing electric with a steam driven station (page 4). Also lists which cities got a diesel-powered stations throughout 1925 and 1933. Page 5 and beyond is about the Tarsus power plant itself.
The
19th government of Turkey led by
DP started supporting the national and privatization of electricity production (page 240, need to type 14 above). According to page 243, only Istanbul, Ankara, Izmir etc. got electricity throughout the day in the 1950s, with most others having only from sunset to 10-11 in the evening.
This is a thesis, so
should be treated with care. Page 72–73 explains that the above tenures were mostly given to "foreigners" because of the lack of personnel and funding, and cites another offline source which I do not have access to. Page 77 states that between 1938 and 1944, the government bought some of the tenures back due to some firms violating their contracts. By 1950, 23% of the Turkish population has access to electricity (page 82, this fact is already in the article).
Looking at the sources, all seem reliable to me. I had some doubts about AnterHaber (Ref 48), but the author is also a journalist for
DHA[2], which would make this reliable.
Nothing significant, but Ref 66 has Yeni Şafak misspelled as Yeni Şafaf.
Styyx Thanks for quick reply. As we already mentioned "no progress" for the 19th century I think it would be a bit boring for the reader to say it again for another time. And I don't think the history section has to mention every decade, as there have been a lot since 1902. Also there is more history in generating source articles such as
Hydroelectricity_in_Turkey#History.
Chidgk1 (
talk)
06:16, 19 March 2022 (UTC)reply
Experience from previous reviews has shown me that some people hate this review table, i.e. it can make responses harder. I just find it keeps the review logical on my end. Please feel free to answer within the table, or below the table and refer to the item, e.g. 1a.1 - I will number all my comments to allow for this referencing.
At this point I need to raise a major concern about the use of {{excerpts}}. There are a lot of sections based on other articles, only one of which is a GA. I can't find a policy or guideline on this, but surely the text could and should be brought into this article so it is stable and the qualiy of the article can be monitored and maintained? To be honest if you disagree I'm minded to move to a QF or invite you to seek a second opinion on this point. Can you give me your thoughts on this please?
Mark83 (
talk)
18:41, 27 January 2022 (UTC)reply
I guessed you might comment on this. I hope to submit all the excerpted articles (except maybe bioenergy) for GA when ready - if I submit them now could you informally review just the leads? Problem is that without using excerpts there will be loads of duplication to keep up to date. If that is not possible then I will take them out except from the GA one (thus they will be duplicate text but I wrote most of it anyway) and put them back in when the other articles are GA.
Chidgk1 (
talk)
19:20, 27 January 2022 (UTC)reply
I think the text needs to be moved over. I don't see "loads of duplication to keep up to date" and even if there is, it's a small price to pay to get this passed as a GA. See a response to my query here about attribution
[1]. This would tidy up the article too, it looks messy with so main 'main' and 'excerpt' templates.
Mark83 (
talk)
17:06, 28 January 2022 (UTC)reply
I really, really, really do not like excerpts, even one. Fair enough it's from a GA - but I have just wasted time trying to figure out why I couldn't find the caption for an image to copy into the review below. It's because the image is elsewhere. As I said above, the maintainence argument isn't good enough for the problems it causes - particularly for editors not familiar with the excerpt template and usage. And visually it makes the formatting awful. The Coal section is just a sea of links.
Mark83 (
talk)
20:06, 2 February 2022 (UTC)reply
At the moment I think no one else but me is interested in doing much maintenance on these articles (thank you so much to Marshelec for improving them so much but I am sure you would rather be out cycling - enjoy). Of course it would be great if others pile in but I think it is their lack of interest in the subject rather than the excerpt which is putting them off. I have reduced the blueness considerably and am happy to consider any other improvements you suggest for
Coal power in TurkeyChidgk1 (
talk)
12:25, 3 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Comments from User:Marshelec
I have followed the progess of this article since being a previous GA reviewer. Great progress has been made, and I think that GA status is now within reach. Here are my main suggestions for tightening up the content:
reconcile and merge the contents of the sections Policy, and Policy and regulation
relocate worthwhile content from the Smart Grid section into other sections and then delete (Smart Grid is a useless buzzword in my view, and not helped by a rambling and overlong article
Smart grid). I don't see a need for a Smart Grid section in this article, when the most important topics can be covered under other relevant headings.
transfer the useful content from the "Future" section into other relevant sections. It does not seem appropriate to have "Future" as a section heading - it will get outdated too quickly, and there is already future-focussed content in other sections.
Marshelec (
talk)
The paragraph beginng: "In 2021, there is a lot of excess generation capacity;[19] but from 2017 through 2019 less than 1% was exported.." is a bit unclear, but seems to be mostly about cross-border trade in electricity (ie export). Any exported energy appears as increased consumption. However, it may be best to make this clear by creating a further sub-section: Export, and discussing this further. It might also be appropriate to relocate some content about export, from the Trade section.
Moved part of the para to trade section. But sorry I don't understand what you mean "Any exported energy appears as increased consumption."
Chidgk1 (
talk)
11:26, 3 February 2022 (UTC)reply
The sentence beginning: "When the lira falls bilateral contracts are sometimes unable to compete .." seems to be in the wrong place - it is not clearly about consumption. Also, two typos need fixing in that sentence.
Marshelec (
talk)
00:39, 3 February 2022 (UTC)reply
The first sentence in this section comes from the cited source but something is wrong, or the 2021 year was really abnormal. The numbers conflict with what is stated elsewhere (eg about the proprtion coming from coal), and don't line up with the graphic alongside (albeit that it finishes in 2020). This is confusing for the reader, and needs clarification.
Thanks - have amended coal sentence. 2021 was abnormal due to drought (but drought may become the new normal) but I have not updated the graphic yet because (despite a lot of searching) I have not been able to find official figures so am not sure they have been published for 2021 yet. Although I think
Ember (non-profit organisation) is a reliable source their report has lumped together wind and solar whereas I would like to keep them separate on the graphic. It may be that they have added up a lot of monthly figures, so if nothing comes out officially in the next few weeks I may try and do that too. Alternatively I could subtract the Hürriyet reported 10% wind from the Ember reported % for wind and solar.
Chidgk1 (
talk)
11:05, 3 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I suggest that the sentence about the virtual power plant doesn't warrant being included in this section "header". It may be best to relocate to a new sub-section for Distributed energy resources or similar
The sentence including "..target of 32% from renewables by 2030 .." is ok, but for consistency and for its critical importance, I recommend adding a sentence about the suggested timeframe for phase-out of coal.
The sentence beginning: "Distributed generation over 11KW can be connected.." could be relocated to the proposed new sub-section on Distributed energy resources. Also it should be 11 kW.
Marshelec (
talk)
01:03, 3 February 2022 (UTC)reply
The sentence: "The country's theoretical geothermal potential is 60 GW[79] and potential is 4.5 GW." contains a vast range of "potential", and this needs clarification because it is confusing as it stands. (The sentence comes from the lead in the article
Geothermal power in Turkey, so it need amendment in that article as well. The sentence should also be moved towards the end of this section to be adjacent to other content about future prospects. The final sentence could then be rationalised to reduce the duplication of the existing 2 GW installed capacity
The sentence: "As well as the electricity sector in Turkey, geothermal heat is used directly" could be usefully expanded as: "As well as contributing to electricity generation, geothermal energy is also used in direct heating applications."
Marshelec (
talk)
04:42, 16 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Lot's of statements that don't seem to be integrated into the prose. More examples to follow as I continue this review, but an example:
The nationwide blackout in 2015 did not greatly affect Van Province as it was supplied from Iran,[166] the EU interconnection helped restore power,[167] and more integration with other countries would increase resilience - So one single province was supplied by Iran, but a nationwide blackout is still an incredible event, why gloss over it? "and more integration with other countries would increase resilience" again, feels like a throwaway, random statement.
Explained more about the blackout and trying to integrate other stuff better. Due to overfamiliarity with the text I will probably miss some so feel free to tagbomb with "clarify" or somesuch or mention here - whichever is more convenient for you
Chidgk1 (
talk)
09:21, 1 February 2022 (UTC)reply
As the electricity sector in the country burns a lot of coal, the largest source of greenhouse-gas emissions is coal-fired power stations. is a bit redundant. Suggest changing to "Turkey's coal-fired power stations are the largest source of the country's greenhouse-gas emissions".
Mark83 (
talk)
18:03, 4 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Basic grammar error: Imports of gas, mostly for Turkey's power stations, is, is > are. Also the wider sentence is run-on Imports of gas, mostly for Turkey's power stations, is one of the main costs for the economy, and in winter electricity generation is vulnerable to reductions in the gas supply from other countries - shouldn't be a comma after economy. Should be one after winter.
They can be balanced by hydroelectricity. I totally understand the point here. Low wind/lack of sunlight is balanced by hyrdo power. But will all readers necessarily know that?
Each year, approximately 300 TWh of electricity is used in Turkey; this accounts for almost a fifth of the total primary energy consumption forgive a dumb question. So what happens the other four-fifths?
Each year, approximately 300 TWh of electricity is used in Turkey; this accounts for almost a fifth of the total primary energy consumption[8] and a little under 2 kilowatt-hours (kWh) per person per day[9] (or 3.7 MWh per year per person according to another source) less than the OECD average,[3]: 17 but half as much again as the global average.[10] is one huge run-on sentence. Split up or simplify.
The share of electricity in industrial energy use is expected to increase at the expense of the fossil fuel share as Turkey moves to higher tech products - perhaps even overtaking gas to become the largest share at 30% - as industrial coal burning declines and oil remains static First problem is a long run on sentence. But main problem is I am really confused - so electricity is going to increase because industry uses coal and gas instead? But I'm guessing. Could this be clearer? Also "perhaps" is another WTW.
Production and use of some types of electric vehicles, such as cars manufactured by TOGG, may increase demand during the 2020s, and Shura Energy Transition Center, a think tank, has made many recommendations about electric vehicles, such as utilizing synergies between EV charging and renewable energy integration and energy storage. another long run-on sentence.
In 2021, there is a lot of excess generation capacity;[17] but from 2017 through 2019 less than 1% was exported.[18] Consumption is forecast to increase. feels like a collection of random statements, not integrated prose.
Turkey's coal is almost all low calorie lignite, and it is difficult to burn low-calorie coal economically in very small (industrial) power stations > Turkey's coal is almost all low calorie lignite, which is difficult to burn economically in very small (industrial) power stations. The text in italics, not sure there is enough context here. Are we not talking about large scale power stations? So why comment on small industrial power generation?.
Turkey has not ratified the Gothenburg Protocol, which is the international protocol which limits > Turkey has not ratified the Gothenburg Protocol, which limits...
Turkey's coal is almost all low calorie lignite, and it is difficult to burn low-calorie coal economically in very small (industrial) power stations doesn't flow.
In hyrdo - is "its position surrounded by three seas." relevant to hydropower? i.e. is any power generated from seas?
No power generated from seas as far as I know - I did not write the sentence - perhaps the writer is implying that dams on rivers directly to the sea do not annoy the neighbours so may be easier to build, whereas dams on rivers to other countries often do annoy them
Chidgk1 (
talk)
16:53, 22 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Due to changes in rainfall generation varies considerably from year to year > Due to changes in rainfall, generation varies considerably from year to year
Done - if easier for you feel free to directly edit any obvious minor problems (I can always check the meaning has not accidentally been changed) - or indeed ignore anything which a copyedit would surely fix as I can always put it in to the Guild of Copy Editors later if necessary
Chidgk1 (
talk)
17:03, 22 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Due to changes in rainfall generation varies considerably from year to year[a] and, according to S&P Global Platts, when there is drought in Turkey during the peak electricity demand month of August the aim of the State Hydraulic Works to conserve water for irrigation can conflict with the Turkish Electricity Transmission Corporation aiming to generate electricity. very long run-on sentence.
Despite droughts increasing due to climate change hydropower is predicted to remain important for load balancing > Despite droughts increasing due to climate change, hydropower is predicted to remain important for load balancing
Done
According to modelling by Carbon Tracker new wind power > According to modelling by Carbon Tracker, new wind power (N.B. lots of punctuation errors like this, e.g. the following sentence.
Done
Solar potential is very high in Turkey, especially in the south-east and Mediterranean provinces is repetition. Integrate with preceding sentence. This whole (solar) section is very piecemeal - integrate into better prose.
The small-sized geothermal power plant was expanded to the country's biggest one in 2013. > The small-sized geothermal power plant was expanded to become the country's biggest in 2013.
Done
Turkey has no nuclear power plants but is building Akkuyu, which is planned to start generation in 2023, and is expected to last for at least 60 years a bit clumbsy. What about "Turkey first nuclear power plant at Akkuyu is planned to start generation in 2023"
This article suffers a bit from
WP:SEAOFBLUE, i.e. in its broadest terms lots of links, and long ones at that. I get that it is a technical article, so will tend to have more links, but please review if the actual linked text can be lessened? e.g. air pollution from coal-fired power stations in Turkey, does it all need to be linked. And Turkey has not ratified the international protocol to limit fine dust polluting other countries. maybe just link international protocol?
What are your thoughts on the lead?
MOS:REFERS says "If possible, the page title should be the subject of the first sentence". Is the best intoductory sentence(s)? I've looked at other "Electricity sector in..." articles and there isn't a common approach. I do feel however the article dives straight into specifics, rather than giving an overview before getting into specifics? Happy to discuss though.
Mark83 (
talk)
18:03, 4 February 2022 (UTC)reply
many of those burning lignite are subsidized. is too much detail for intro? And leads to a "so what" question. In contrast this is covered better in the main body.
Mark83 (
talk)
18:03, 4 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Not too much detail and "so what" is a good question - I have an answer - but if it is OK with you we can come back to the lead once everything else is sorted
Can you check generation data please. I get there is a 1 year difference - but the text says generation in 2021 was coal 26%, gas 42%, hydro 13% and wind 10%, and the chart say coal 36%, gas 23%, hydro 26% and wind 1%. Something is wrong surely? Did wind increase by a factor of 10? Did hydro double?
It is not surprising for hydro to halve from a rainy year to a drought year, and whether coal or gas take up the slack depends a lot on their relative prices. I tried to explain that in the text somewhere. As for wind you are right there would be a mistake if it changed that much but it has actually grown fairly steadily - do you think I should see if it is possible to move the chart scale to be on the right (or both sides) of the diagram so it is easier to read off the latest year?
Chidgk1 (
talk)
06:44, 5 February 2022 (UTC)reply
By the way you can a similar chart in
Energy in Turkey where I moved labelling to the right - that was quite easy - so could do same with electricity chart if you think better than current labelling - but if so probably best to leave scale on left
Chidgk1 (
talk)
18:00, 22 February 2022 (UTC)reply
2b.
reliable sources are
cited inline. All content that
could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).
Not OR, just a query on accuracy: Imports of gas, mostly for Turkey's power stations, is one of the main costs for the economy, - can you elaborate please? Main costs for the whole economy? And I'm sorry I am having trouble accessing the sources. And it's nothing to do with your referencing.
Yes the whole economy you understood right. I tried to explain in detail at the beginning of the "economics and finance" section. Which sources are a problem please and would you like me to put more cites in the lead (or indeed less or none)? I think there is a tool to check for dead cite links but I cannot remember - if you don't know I could ask at helpdesk.
Chidgk1 (
talk)
07:07, 5 February 2022 (UTC)reply
constructing too much electricity generation capacity can be expensive, both for the government because of energy subsidies and for the private sector because of debt interest., don't think the debt interest thing is right. The reference says debt was used as a result of crises - but that won't always (or even naturally) be the case?
I am not an economist but I understand the
Weighted average cost of capital is becoming even more important, because almost all the cost of wind and solar is capital cost as the operation and maintenance costs are low as they need no fuel. Similarly nuclear fuel costs are low compared to fossil but capital cost to build nuclear is very large. Cost of capital is higher here than for, say, UK wind power as lenders take more risk. So I have added another cite about cost of capital.
Chidgk1 (
talk)
07:19, 5 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Converting existing dams to pumped storage has been suggested as more feasible than new pumped storage. - I know what pumped storage is, needs linked/explained though.
The first 4 images are not representative of the topic at all, or at least not a good way of introducing the topic at the beginning of the article.
Children looking at a museum piece? If that's really how we want to represent the article, at least provide information on when this equipment was used? Where? But I think it should go.
"Nostalgic tramway in Istanbul" - is this article about electricity sector or transport?
Transport is an extremely important deep past and near future consumer of electricity so we need at least one transport pic - I would have liked to add a pic of the
Togg Turkish national car but I could not find one. If you like I could swap it for a high speed rail pic caption to be doneChidgk1 (
talk)
11:21, 28 January 2022 (UTC)reply
"Many electrical consumer goods are exported, such as this Turkish coffee maker" is this article about electricity sector or the Turkish consumer goods manufacturing sector?
Heating water is an important consumer of electricity but willing to delete if you prefer. A pic of a combi boiler would be boring don't you think?
Chidgk1 (
talk)
11:21, 28 January 2022 (UTC)reply
The caption doesn't say that. It talks about exports! And even if you make a caption along those lines, I still don't see the need for it. Contemporary articles don't have such images.
Mark83 (
talk)
17:02, 28 January 2022 (UTC)reply
On reflection have put graph back in with better caption and cited as I think readers can understand the skill levels more quickly than they could from text - however I could also write some text if you think necessary
Chidgk1 (
talk)
10:51, 31 January 2022 (UTC)reply
I still don't see what we're trying to say here. Electricity pole and ferryboat after the 1999 İzmit earthquake - a resilient electricity system is important as earthquakes in Turkey are common - why are we referring to a ferry in the caption (and even why are we using an image in which a ferry is so promient)? Not sure of the relevance? And is the eletrictity pole the Y shaped thing in the foreground? Was it damaged in the earthquake?
"Mosque in Old Halfeti partially submerged by the Birecik Dam on the River Euphrates" tenuous link to the subject. It just seems like a pretty image for the sake of a pretty image.
So you've removed the 2 dam pics that are actually relevant to electricty generation, and kept the image of a mosque which is not at all relevant? I'm confused.
Mark83 (
talk)
17:02, 28 January 2022 (UTC)reply
OK good point - Birecik dam was not noteworthy so replaced pic with pre-Ilusu Dam pic as Ilusu has been noteworthy for decades and explained more in caption. Also added small hydro pic as small hydro rather common here
Chidgk1 (
talk)
08:57, 31 January 2022 (UTC)reply
"Geothermal power off the road to Ephesus" is a strange choice of words. Just put in the location. "off the road" isn't descriptive. There will be many roads this could be.
Yes I struggled when I put this in - it seemed the best pic as the others are poor quality or from far away - but there is hardly any description so I don't know which plant this is - unless you have a better idea for the caption maybe I should just remove it?
Chidgk1 (
talk)
12:28, 3 February 2022 (UTC)reply
File:Hasankeyf - panoramio (1).jpg - I really don't understand the way you seem to be so focused on things impacted by dams. This article is an overview of the Electricity sector in Turkey - a few structures submerged by dams seems like such a niche area of the topic, i.e. undue focus. If it should be covered it all it should be at articles for the damns themselves/localities. Or
Hydroelectricity in Turkey.
Caption of Renewable energy increases employment in Turkey is not an accurate description of the image which says renewable energy can increase employment. And are we happy with the reliability of the source? NPOV?
That caption isn't gramatically correct. But it's also not factually correct. The chart says "renewable energy can increase employment", your caption says it does. Suggestion: "According to a 2021 study, government policies supporting renewable energy may increase employment in Turkey" I'm not sure it needs a reference? (just confirming I didn't ask for that). That can be in the image information, i.e. when clicked on.
Mark83 (
talk)
09:45, 4 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Removed. Looking at the details in the study if I understand it right they are saying that the governments current renewable energy policy is increasing employment but the authors are proposing changes in policy which would increase it further. I'll take the graphic out from here and hopefully explain it better if and when I get around to improving the
renewable energy in Turkey article.
Chidgk1 (
talk)
12:44, 4 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Control room of 2016 Zetes-3 coal-fired power station, which environmentalists would like to put in a museum - not that happy about the text I've put in italics. It reads a bit pointed/POV. I know what you're trying to say, but it doesn't feel encyclopedic.
Mark83 (
talk)
20:06, 2 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Encyclopedias don't have to be humorless! But if you think it is POV and don't have a better suggestion I can remove the second part of the caption if you wish
Chidgk1 (
talk)
12:48, 3 February 2022 (UTC)reply
YThis is an example of preferences. I can't impose my preferences. I wouldn't write this in an article; I know what you mean, but this feels like a newspaper or magazine article tone, not an encyclopedia. But I'll leave it up to you.
Mark83 (
talk)
09:45, 4 February 2022 (UTC)reply
7. Overall assessment.
Mark83 So you are looking for quick replies for the backlog competition in order to finish before the end of month? Or it makes no difference? Anyway I will hopefully be able to respond quickly.
Chidgk1 (
talk)
17:00, 27 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Hi. No, that's irrelevant. It would be in appropriate for me to either rush the review or push you for replies faster than would ordinarily be the case.
Mark83 (
talk)
17:19, 27 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Hello both the reviewer and nominator of the article, I would lay down some of my thoughts about the article below. Do take note that some may be a bit off from the GA criteria.
I think there is a huge gaps of content missing, such as effect on human health, plans for expansion, and toss in some politics as well while we are at it. This article should have good sectioning, as other articles of this kind would based on this one for reference.
Re plans for expansion I think the Russians are still our friends so won't abandon construction of the nuclear plant - hoping for more wind and solar auction announcements - anyway if more info comes out on plans for expansion I will definitely add
Chidgk1 (
talk)
14:18, 10 March 2022 (UTC)reply
Re sections I agree it would be nice to be a model for other "Electricity sector in X" articles and am open to suggestions
Chidgk1 (
talk)
14:18, 10 March 2022 (UTC)reply
Personally, I don't really have huge concerns about sourcing, although archiving the citations at
User:IABot can be handy.
Listing some of the most notable plants would make the article better. For example, in the "Hydro" section, you should list the
Atatürk Dam,
Karakaya Dam, etc.
Using excerpt is a temporarily solution in my opinion. A better way to tackle with summarizing the contents of a sub-article is to rewrite it completely, and then paste that rewrite back to the lead of the sub-article.
Personally, a better image that represent the electricity sector is either: a chart showing the percentage of each sector, or a huge and well-known power plant.
Ah you mean the image that appears at the beginning on mobile phones. I disagree as nowadays transmission is more important than generation I think. But if a particular generation method starts getting expanded rapidly I might change it. Hey if anyone is reading this from Togg please please put a pic on Wikimedia Commons.
Chidgk1 (
talk)
14:18, 10 March 2022 (UTC)reply
"History" section should be placed at the beginning
Again I disagree as I suspect most readers will be more interested in the current situation - but if the new reviewer feels strongly I will move it.
Chidgk1 (
talk)
14:18, 10 March 2022 (UTC)reply
General comment: Definitely good, but in my opinion the article is still falls short of
GA. It is missing criterion 3a, which is the easiest to achieve out of all :)
CactiStaccingCrane (
talk)
12:17, 10 March 2022 (UTC)reply
Hello! I've decided to pick this up. This is my first GA review, so make sure to slam dunk any complaints here or on my talk page in case I mess up. :)
I'd prefer not having too many excerpts.
Coal power in Turkey is a GA itself, so I don't have any problem with this one. Having
Wind power in Turkey in addition isn't a huge problem since there are no policies/guidelines/criterias regarding the usage of excerpts.
Lead
There probably is a good explanation for this, but I was wondering why there are sources in the lead. Since the lead is pretty much a summary,
MOS:LEADCITE says that challengeable things and BLP related material should be sourced, but I don't see either applying here.
I have mixed feelings about this section being at the very end, but the reasoning above seems, eh. The respective MoS doesn't say anything about this, so I guess it's not a problem.
This section has a lot of potential to be expanded: I feel that it's missing something with covering 100 years in just four paragraphs. I have some sources below, and their main points translated into English:
This is mostly about the city of Tarsus alone, but the beginning includes some history too. Page 3 says that in 1875, a French firm got the tenure to install electric street lamps in several Turkish cities (all listed), but "no progress was made." In 1899 they started giving the tenures to different firms. The page also lists in what year some Turkish cities got the electric tenure (1910 to 1920). In 1914, Istanbul started producing electric with a steam driven station (page 4). Also lists which cities got a diesel-powered stations throughout 1925 and 1933. Page 5 and beyond is about the Tarsus power plant itself.
The
19th government of Turkey led by
DP started supporting the national and privatization of electricity production (page 240, need to type 14 above). According to page 243, only Istanbul, Ankara, Izmir etc. got electricity throughout the day in the 1950s, with most others having only from sunset to 10-11 in the evening.
This is a thesis, so
should be treated with care. Page 72–73 explains that the above tenures were mostly given to "foreigners" because of the lack of personnel and funding, and cites another offline source which I do not have access to. Page 77 states that between 1938 and 1944, the government bought some of the tenures back due to some firms violating their contracts. By 1950, 23% of the Turkish population has access to electricity (page 82, this fact is already in the article).
Looking at the sources, all seem reliable to me. I had some doubts about AnterHaber (Ref 48), but the author is also a journalist for
DHA[2], which would make this reliable.
Nothing significant, but Ref 66 has Yeni Şafak misspelled as Yeni Şafaf.
Styyx Thanks for quick reply. As we already mentioned "no progress" for the 19th century I think it would be a bit boring for the reader to say it again for another time. And I don't think the history section has to mention every decade, as there have been a lot since 1902. Also there is more history in generating source articles such as
Hydroelectricity_in_Turkey#History.
Chidgk1 (
talk)
06:16, 19 March 2022 (UTC)reply