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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
I am intending to change this page into a wikipedia:hub page like civil engineering. Any comments?-- Light current 20:14, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi Light current,
I have read the discussion while I was away - I like the previous version of the page better. I am not satisfied that this new version has majority support. Please let us keep the previous version of the page until the electrical and electronics engineering page is up-to-scratch. Not even mentioning the content, particular things that could be improved include getting rid of bad formatting and the redundant "[edit]" text, fixing citations, fixing length, etc. The previous version was proof-read many, many times - I have a feeling this new version hasn't beeen proof-read much at all. I should also remind you that previous version has already been endorsed in this survey. I am going to revert to the previous version of the page shortly.
Sincerely,
Cedars 13:33, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi Light current,
I took time-out because I felt there was no way I could productively contribute to discussion without getting unnecessarily upset. However, before I left I did outline my viewpoint very clearly here. I am honestly happy to compromise, but redirecting to an article which even by the most superficial standards is not up-to-scratch is not what I believe to be a satisfactory compromise. I honestly do not believe I am being any less pragmatic than you - although I really am willing to settle on the right compromise. I will copy these comments to the electrical engineering talk page so that other interested parties have an understanding of why I, like others, am reverting.
Sincerely,
Cedars 13:50, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi Light current,
I really do not want to be banned, I really want to work this out. It is okay for you to place an AfD tag on the page just please do it in the correct manner (so I can oppose the deletion).
I have added an extended note on the issue to the page please feel free to edit it to present your viewpoint.
Together I am sure we can work things out (I will not be editing for the next 5 hours).
Cedars 03:13, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
P.S. Please add new comments to the bottom of my talk page.
Hi Light current,
There are three simple steps to nominate an article for deletion, you can read them here. If you follow the three steps your AfD tag will not be removed until the users of Wikipedia have reached a decision on the matter. Otherwise the tag will be removed as there is no point having an AfD tag that cannot be acted upon. If you want me to remove the tag, do nothing and I will remove the tag in a few hours. If you want to keep the tag, please follow the steps given here. If you need further assitance, please visit the helpdesk it is specifically designed to provide new users with help using Wikipedia.
Thanks for your time,
Cedars 05:36, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
P.S. Please add new comments to the bottom of my talk page.
Hi Light current,
Your last edit to the electrical engineering page here destroyed the formatting of the page. Please make sure to preview your changes before you apply them.
Thanks,
Cedars 03:46, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi Light current,
I don't disagree that the lead picture in the article is dark. I may be able to tinker with it to change the look. However if you have an alternative picture (and caption) please feel free replace the current picture with it. Ideally I think the article needs something that looks good, is relevant to the subject and is not used elsewhere in the article.
Cedars 03:20, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi Light current,
I noticed you removed my picture again. Can you please post something to replace it in the next two hours given the FAC comments.
Thanks,
Cedars 03:22, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Light current, if you don't agree with the feature article nomination, please say why using the "leave comments" link. I would really appreciate your support on this however there is no need for more than one person to nominate an article for featured status. Cedars 03:45, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi Light current,
Since you are now formally objecting to the FA nomination, would you mind leaving the electrical engineering article alone at least until the nomination is complete. If you want you can further escalate tensions between us, but I fail to see what purpose it would serve.
Cedars 23:52, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
Yes I BW would! Are you going to ban everyone else who objected from editing the page? Grow up! Hi Light current,
Would it be possible to stick with just one picture for the lead of electrical engineering? I believe otherwise the pictures start to distract from the content.
Cheers,
Cedars 01:12, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
really don't want two images in the lead, it makes the article look cluttered. Also please check the articles after you edit them, right now there is a huge space between the first two paragraphs. Why did you add this when no other article has such spacing? Cedars 03:33, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
There is nothing in the NPOV policy here about keeping two images in the lead. I am sorry but I really feel strongly that only one image should be kept for the lead. Maybe we can select a better single picture for the article? Cedars 03:41, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
These are comments I posted to Light current regarding my recent reverts
Hi Light current,
I have read the discussion while I was away - I like the previous version of the page better. I am not satisfied that this new version has majority support. Please let us keep the previous version of the page until the electrical and electronics engineering page is up-to-scratch. Not even mentioning the content, particular things that could be improved include getting rid of bad formatting and the redundant "[edit]" text, fixing citations, fixing length, etc. The previous version was proof-read many, many times - I have a feeling this new version hasn't beeen proof-read much at all. I should also remind you that previous version has already been endorsed in this survey. I am going to revert to the previous version of the page shortly.
Sincerely,
Cedars 13:33, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
My replies to Cedars constant reversion without agreement or proper discussion-- Light current 14:20, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Please discuss why you are undoing my changes before you undo them. Otherwise I am just going to undo your changes (like I already have). The improved lead section is necessary if the article is to have any chance at featured status. Also regarding the terminology, I find it awkward to have the discussion in a separate section. In short, if the terminology is so important it should be noted in the lead. Cedars 09:32, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
The two are not mutually exclusive. What exactly is inaccurate about the current article because accuracy is something I seriously value and if there is something inaccurate we should fix it? Cedars 00:37, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Nevertheless, this argument is not going to move us forward with editing the article. I don't have the time to edit a whole heap of articles and I would rather make the electrical engineering article a good one than anything else. I have also been a Wikipedia longer than you so this claim that I don't know how it works is a really strange one. But putting that to one side, what needs to be done to get the electrical engineering article to a satisfactory point for you? Cedars 01:12, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I am more of a doer than a thinker and my edits probably cause far less disruption than yours.
However, if we can find a way to move forward that would be great. I suggested on the talk page of EE, maybe since you have stated you don't want to work with me or care about my opinions you might leave the electrical engineering article alone. I have left the electrical and electronics engineering article alone thus far. Otherwise please tell me what needs to be done to bring the EE article up to your level of satisfaction. Cedars 02:40, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi Light current,
I noticed you tagged the electrical engineering article with a redirect for deletion notice. But the page is not a redirect and there is no entry for it on the redirects for deletion listings so I have removed the notice.
Sincerely,
Cedars 02:45, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
P.S. Please add new notes to the bottom of my talk page, cheers.
Hi Light current,
I noticed you tagged the electrical engineering article with an article for deletion notice but did not create an article for deletion page. I have therefore removed the AfD notice.
Cedars 04:07, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Please stop reverting electrical engineering. CJ's picture is now prominently featured in the article. I am happy to replace the current lead picture with a better lead picture. I really don't understand what more you want. Cedars 01:15, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Also, I am happy to go to a vote if necessary but votes take such long time. It is better if we can resolve this without a vote. Cedars 01:22, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi Light current,
I have created a new article for you to add extra history on the profession to. It is important to keep the history in the main article concise but please feel free to expand the sub-article and once it reaches a stable point we can add a sub-article link to it from the article (not just a see also link).
Cedars 00:54, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi Light current,
You recently reverted my work on the electrical engineering page without discussing it here. I created a sub-page for you in the hope we would avoid an edit war. Why isn't a sub-page sufficient to discuss your ideas?
Cedars 01:08, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Light current,
Could we perhaps use this page to quickly discuss your changes? I really need to talk to you about the changes. I am sure if we work together we can reach a compromise and hopefully develop a better understanding of each other's approaches. If your up for it reply here. Otherwise I am just going to keep making changes to the article in the way I believe it should be changed and probably upsetting you (which I don't mean to do).
Cedars 01:41, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi Light current,
I realize we've had some difficulty creating a proper dialogue [1] but I really want to sort these changes out. So hopefully this helps you understand the reason for my changes:
I really hope this resolves our dispute. Please consider that these changes were not easy to make, I had to spend a fair 30 minutes looking for references on the magnetron and radar as well as reviewing all the changes and copying text from old versions, etc.
Cedars 02:44, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Light current,
I really want to resolve this dispute. But you keep deleting my talk page comments. If you don't talk to me I cannot understand why you are making the changes you are making. And I'll have to keep changing the artcle in a way that I feel best fits with my own opinion on how the article should be. You have complained about me not discussing changes before - well now I am willing to put in some time to discuss my changes (I can't guarentee much but I'll give you what I can).
Cedars 01:47, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
P.S. Feel free to post your thoughts to my talk page that way I can quickly access them.
You haven't really replied to them though. Could we perhaps conduct a discussion on my talk page, if your talk page is inappropriate? My real concern is that with your changes the history section (which was originally very brief) is becomming excessively large. Surely there is a way we could move your changes to a sub-article thus keeping the history section (and whole article) at a reasonable size? Cedars 01:58, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Ill talk about it tomorrow -- DEEP breaths now!
Hi Light current,
If you want to play the 3RR rule then please make sure you don't revert the article more than 3 times yourself. Also please list the 3 reverts I have done. I don't believe I am even close to violating the 3RR rule?
Cedars 01:36, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
I compromise on electrical and electronic engineering in lead-- Light current 04:14, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
I submit this request for suggestions from interested parties on how to totally restructure the pages on electrical and electronic engineering in all their forms and using a worldwide NPOV perspective.
A number of other pages have been created during the course of the recent discussions, and I would ask interested parties to look at all these to see what can be salvaged from them to make a new page (or set of pages) relating to electrical and/or electronics engineering.
Maybe the first question to ask ourselves is : can electrical and electronic exist and be discussed on the same page or do we need different pages for each but outlining the overlap, similarities and differences., Also, do we need to focus on the education and training of both sorts of engineer, of do we just talk about the sorts of work they do?
Pages to look at: electronics engineering electronics electrical engineering electrical and electronics engineering
There may also be sub pages created under electrical engineering. Please also take alook at these. Could people please respond here in the first instance? -- Light current 03:45, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Also please see subfields of electrical engineering-- Light current 16:14, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
For earlier discussion see Talk:Electrical engineering/Archive 1
For earlier discussion see Talk:Electrical engineering/Archive 2
OK, so as I see it, the issue is that in one part of the world electrical engineering is the main field and electronics engineering is a subfield, and in another part of the world it's reversed. In this case, here is what should, by the rules and convention, be done.
I've put merge tags on the three articles Electrical says to merge to electronics, and visa versa, and the electrical and electronics article has two merge tags. Somebody should consider fixing the goddamn problem instead of expending time edit warring over the tags. Phil Sandifer 16:59, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Electrical engineering Information
Electrical engineering is an engineering discipline that deals with the study and application of electricity and electromagnetism. Its practitioners are called electrical engineers. Electrical engineering is a broad field that encompasses many subfields including those that deal with power, instrumentation engineering, and telecommunications. Some common useages, particularly in North America, include the field of Electronics engineering. There is considerable overlap between both Electrical and Electronic engineering fields in practice, and in some instances the two phrases may be used interchangably.
Electronic engineering Information
Electronics engineering is an engineering discipline that deals with the study and application of electronic devices, systems and electronic transport phenomena in semiconductors. Its practitioners are called electronics engineers. Electronic engineering is a broad field that encompasses many subfields including those that deal with control engineering, signal processing, and computer engineering. Some common useages, particularly in North America, include the field of Electronics engineering into that of Electrical engineering. There is considerable overlap between both Electrical and Electronic engineering fields in practice, and in some instances the two phrases may be used interchangably.
Electrical and Electronic engineering (disambiguation) InformationElectrical engineering, and Electronic engineering may refer to:
There is considerable overlap between both Electrical and Electronic engineering fields in practice, and in some instances the two phrases may be used interchangably. |
Agreed I have stirred the soup somewhat, but with the intention of putting everything into the pot to see what weve got before trying to distill it into as many separate parts as needed. Now I think we are at the see what we've got stage. I welcome any more comments as to how to deal with it.-- Light current 04:05, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Barberio, Im just slightly uneasy with your definition of electrical engineering including telecomms and signal processing etc. I would have said these were firmly in the electronics eng area. Im interested to know where you see the dividing line between electrical eng and electronics eng at present so we can try to come to some initial compromise and make initial decisions on the splitting the material into the appropriate pages.-- Light current 22:50, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
We're all capable of assessing the situation if we have enough contributions from around the world. There are no experts on this subject as you'll see if you look at the different university definitions of the two subjects. In fact, I think the WP editors are in a better poistion to define the differences than persons from a single country beacuse we have the advantage of communication and discussion with each other. I feel the discussion is going well and Barberio has presented an excellent starting point for discussion. I think we all ought to consider and discuss his proposals before moving on.-- Light current 23:22, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
I thank you for your speedy reply here r b-j and for your comments. It does semm that there is a definite difference between the US terminology and that used in Europe and if youve read any of the above discussion youll know that were trying to make these articles global in appeal with no bias for or against any particular country. So I hope you will continue to comment here as the discussion progresses and we all try to hammer out some sort of accepatble compromise definitions. Forgive our ignorance over here in the UK but I assume that a tech certificate school does not award degrees? Is that right? THanks again.:-) -- Light current 07:16, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
After some thoughts I have a proposal that maybe others could expand on (or knock down).We have a page called Electrical and electronics engineering that is mainly a dismab page explaining the different terminologies in different countries and then we link directly to different pages on all the sub fields of both sorts of engineering. This way I think we may be able to bypass some of the more contentious issues about who actually does what and it would also avoid duplication of material. On this main page we could indicate the overlap between disciplines and also include the common training and education requirements of engineers. We do not include any of the specialisms in detail on the page.
So basically we dont have pages on EITHER electrical eng OR electronics eng as such, (but the existing pages with these titles would be redirected to the new 'hub' page electrical and electronics engineering before the reader is pointed to the page of his choice. THe only problem here is what to do with the history stuff. I propose that it is put on a page called history of electricity or something. -- Light current 16:57, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Definitions from Chambers's Twentieth Century Dictionary
Definitions from Encyclopedia Britannica 2005 Deluxe Edition CD-ROM
Pronunciation: i-lek-trä-niks Function: noun plural Date: 1910 1 singular in construction : a branch of physics that deals with the emission, behavior, and effects of electrons (as in electron tubes and transistors) and with electronic devices 2 : electronic devices or equipment
Pronunciation: i-lek-trik Function: adjective Etymology: New Latin electricus produced from amber by friction,electric, from Medieval Latin, of amber, from Latin electrum amber, electrum, from Greek ektron; akin to Greek lekt‹r beaming sun Date: 1675
1 or
elec-tri-cal : of, relating to, or operated by electricity
2 : exciting as if by electric
shock an electric performance an electric personality; also :
charged with strong emotion the roomwas electric with tension
4 : very bright
electric blue
electric orange
Compiled by: --
Electron Kid
04:02, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
I would like to see the photos of Edison and Tesla replaced in the new article's history section if there is room, as I think its interesting to see what these people looked like. I had not seen a picture of Tesla before as Im sure many others havent.-- Light current 22:26, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Well thats OK. Maybe we can link to the existing articles/photos intead of taking up room here?-- Light current 01:58, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Moved here from article page as advertised-- Light current 00:51, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Electricity has been a subject of scientific interest since at least the seventeenth century. However it was not until the nineteenth century that research into the subject started to intensify. Notable developments in this century include the work of Georg Ohm who in 1827 quantified the relationship between the electric current and potential difference in a conductor and the work of Michael Faraday who in 1831 discovered electromagnetic induction.
However during these years the study of electricity was largely considered to be a subfield of physics and hence the domain of physicists. It was not until the late nineteenth century that universities started to offer degrees in electrical engineering. The Darmstadt University of Technology established the first chair of electrical engineering worldwide in 1882 and offered a four year study course of electrical engineering in 1883. In 1882, MIT offered the first course on electrical engineering in the United States. This course was organized by Professor Charles Cross who was head of the Physics department and who later became a founder of the American Institute of Electrical Engineers (which later became the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers). In 1885, the University College London founded the first chair of electrical engineering in the United Kingdom and, in 1886, the University of Missouri established the first department of electrical engineering in the United States. [2]
During this period, work in the area increased dramatically. In 1882, Edison switched on the world's first large-scale electrical supply network that provided 110 volts direct current to fifty-nine customers in lower Manhattan. In 1887, Nikola Tesla filed a number of patents related to a competing form of power distribution known as alternating current. In the following years a bitter rivalry between Tesla and Edison, known as the " War of Currents", took place over the preferred method of distribution.
Tesla's work on induction motors and polyphase systems influenced electrical engineering for years to come. Edison's work on telegraphy and his development of the stock ticker proved lucrative for his company (which eventually became one of the world's largest companies, General Electric). As well as the contributions of Edison and Tesla, a number of other figures played an equally important role in the progress of electrical engineering at this time.
In 1896, Guglielmo Marconi made the world's first wireless radio transmission. In 1905, John Fleming invented the first radio tube, the diode. One year later, in 1906, Robert von Lieben and Lee De Forest independently developed the amplifier tube, called the triode.
In the 1928, the first successful transatlantic television transmission was made from London to New York. Manfred von Ardenne introduced the cathode ray tube and thus the electronic television in 1931
In 1942, Konrad Zuse presented the Z3, the world's first functional computer. In 1946, the ENIAC (Electronic Numerical Integrator and Computer) of John Presper Eckert and John Mauchly followed, beginning the computing era. The arithmetic performance of these machines allowed engineers to develop completely new technologies and achieve new objectives. Early examples include the Apollo missions and the NASA moon landing.
The invention of the transistor in 1947 by William B. Shockley, John Bardeen and Walter Brattain opened the door for more compact devices and led to the development of the integrated circuit in 1959 by Jack Kilby and independently in 1961 by Robert Noyce. In 1958, G.C. Devol and J. Engelberger invented and built in the USA the world's first industrial robot. Such a robot was used for the first time in 1960 in industrial production by General Motors.
In 1968, Marcian Hoff at Intel invented the microprocessor and thus ignited the development of the personal computer. Hoff's invention was part of an order by a Japanese company for a desktop computer, which Hoff wanted to build as cheaply as possible. The first realization of the microprocessor was the Intel 4004, a 4-bit processor, in 1969, but only in 1973 did the Intel 8080, an 8-bit processor, make the building of the first personal computer, the Altair 8800, possible.
I'm seeing a few articles mentioning how an earth ground is used as a "return path" for a circuit. Admittedly, my understanding of electrical engineering is very limited, but I was under the impression that the idea of a literal "return path" through the ground was disproven, and an earth ground is now understood merely as a "source/sink". Reading the article about SWER and ones that link to it, I'm getting impression that there's an electrical path through the ground from a user back to the power plant, which I'm pretty sure is not the case. Could this be clarified? -- NewtN
Moved here from main page cos its not a subfield - its a major field therfore should not be listed as a subfield.-- Light current 01:01, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
| style="vertical-align:top;" | Electronics engineering involves the design and testing of electronic circuits that use the properties of components such as resistors, capacitors, inductors, diodes and transistors to achieve a particular functionality. The tuner circuit, which allows the user of a radio to filter out all but a single station, is just one example of such a circuit.
Before the invention of the integrated circuit in 1959, electronic circuits were constructed from discrete components that could be manipulated by humans. These non-integrated circuits consumed much space and power, were limited in speed although they are still common in some applications. By contrast, integrated circuits packed a large number - often millions - of tiny electrical components, mainly transistors, into a small chip around the size of a coin. This allowed for the powerful computers and other electronic devices we see today. Read more...
why was the history section removed? — Omegatron 01:09, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
History of electricity and radio page.-- Light current 01:32, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Moved from my talk-- Light current 02:37, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi,
The history section was frequently requested when the article underwent peer review. A history section is generally looked upon favourably when an article is nominated for feature status.
Hope that information is helpful.
Cedars 10:06, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Thers no consensus for or against a history section in the so called 'Peer review' Light current
Electrical engineering is a very general term for an engineering discipline that deals with the study and application of electricity, electromagnetism and electronics. Its practitioners are sometimes called electrical engineers. - the 13:38 of Dec. 11, 2005 lead paragraph.
" very general"? "Sometimes" ? I've been taught that using so many qualifiers in such a short paragraph is very weak writing.
Do we have more than one editor so very concerned with miniscule turf wars between one sect and another? -- Wtshymanski 23:55, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
I think its very important to have this explanatory para as the lead para so everyone knows what to expect from the page and its many links to specialities. I also think its important to have the education of electrical engineers outlined to further illustrate the sort of work of which they are generally capable. However I have not included that again this time because I know User:Cedars will just keep reverting to his old version without any discussion on it. Wording of lead para is intended to illustrate the very broad nature (almost all encompassing it seems sometimes)of electrical and electronics engineering. Yes sometimes they are called electronics engineers, like over here. World wide (esp in North America it is a very general term- so I cant see what's weak about the writing-- its the title of the page that's causing the problem. BTW where were you when I was asking for comments on this?
I think this para could do with the syllabus that I included before a couple of times. I think its important to list the things that both engineers study so it can be seen why they can cover such a wide range of final specialites. I therfore propose to make this my next addition if there are no valid arguments against.-- Light current 01:54, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
It does appear to be copied but I dont think a list like this can really be subject to copyright restrictions. If it is, I'll just reorder it then it wont be. I reiterate that this syllabus is very important to the understanding of the capabilities and education of EEs and should therefore be explicitly stated and not just linked to.-- Light current 17:09, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
We are trying to show the similarities and differences between the 2 sorts of engineering here. Now, to my mind there are a number of things that need to be mentioned on a very broad subject such as electrical/electronics engineering. Some are, in no particular order:
To include all these aspects on one page is not going to be possible if we are to keep it to a reasonable size. To define and explain the main differences and similarities between the two aspects, in a way that is not dependent on National usages of the terms 'Electrical engineering' and 'electronic engineering', I felt it essential to include a typical syllabus. THis defines what engineers are trained to do and should be able to do. This syllabus may need to be modified/updated.
Bearing in mind the above posts I feel that the page does need to be split, but not just by hiving off one section. We need to decide what it is we mean to convey on this main page before linking to sub pages which can contain the bulk of the detailed information. I suggest that this page should be describing the training, education and professional aspects only and all other facets put on their own pages.
This page should be a hub page aimed at professional engineers and people who want to be one. Links to other aspects /details should be very obviously placed on the page. As I suggested before, this page should be a HUB page with spokes radiating into the different aspects. In this way I think this huge subject can be handled.
This problem will occur (if it hasnt already) again probably on Mechanical engineering and Civil engineering which are also huge topics. -- Light current 19:06, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
I suggest all interested parties look at civil engineering page for ideas and to see how the problem has been dealt with there. Mechanical engineering is not in a good state I feel.-- Light current 19:14, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Pleas do NOT remove the syllabus before we have decided on how to split the page properly. If you do it is just reverting to the previous version-- Light current 02:29, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Well first of all I would ask you to take a look at civil engineering (as this has a lot of parallels to electrical eng.) and tell me what you think of it. I think its a good format even tho' I ve not been involved with it at all. If we can come to some agreement on the good and bad points of that page, then we have a starting point for electrical engineering.
I think it would be good to standardise the pages on all sorts of engineering, but I notice there is not, as yet, a wiki project on engineering. Im not going to start one but I may join a properly constituted one if someone else takes the lead on it.-- Light current 17:23, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
You have not answered my previous question. So plese do so before taking unilateral action-- Light current 10:58, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Yes I agree demographics section should be trimmed as a start.-- Light current 20:30, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
I do not agree with the removal of the syllabus. But now I think we ought to move on and make the page into a hub as I suggested before with all the sub disciplines/specilaties fanning off as per civil eng page.-- Light current 17:18, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
EEs design PCBs. Why was this removed? — Omegatron 18:06, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
Cleared xs stuff from subfields to give sleeker looking page. All info is available merely by clicking links to main pages. we also need a link to education/ training where the syllabus for both electrical and electronics engineers can be displayed.-- Light current 18:36, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
No definitely not. Do not add any thing back to subfields; theres enough there already. The links have adequate info. Youre trying to turn the page back to what it was -- completely unsatisfactory!-- Light current 03:11, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
If I think a separate article is needed to explain training and education, I shall create one, putting a link from electrical engineering to it. Let me worry about the copyright status (which is no problem at all). List of electrical engineering topics I shall AfD as useless.-- Light current 03:24, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Done it ;-))-- Light current 04:03, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
There is no real point having a hub page which repeats stuff covered on the sub pages. However, in the interests of cooperation, I accept yor current reversion and will not change it back. I will however seek to improve the page still further-- I think it looks much better alreadY! :-))- Light current 02:34, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
The attitude that the list of electrical engineering topics is useless is extremely arrogant. OK in yet another gracious action, I shall alter my decision to AfD this page. I shall try to improve it insted. Happy?-- Light current 02:45, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
Your paragraph does not make grammatical sense. Civil engineering is a good example to follow. If you think its not - explain why not!-- Light current 00:35, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
You must get the idea of every article you work on becoming a featured article out of your head. A featured article is not necessarily a good or useful/informative article from the point of view of the general readership.-- Light current 00:50, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Oh dear!-- Light current 01:05, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Do you really think I care that you find things difficult?? Oh dear!-- Light current 01:30, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Please take a more mature attitude to WP.-- Light current 02:26, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
=
All the material in the Terminology section belongs in the lead. Below I have rearranged the lead to include that info, but it leaves a couple short paragraphs that should be developed further. What do you think?
Electrical engineering is a professional engineering discipline that deals with the study and application of electricity and electromagnetism. A broad field, it encompasses many subfields including those that deal with power, control systems, electronics and telecommunications. Sometimes, electrical engineering is distinguished from electronics engineering, with electrical engineering dealing with the problems associated with large-scale electrical systems such as power transmission and motor control, and electronics engineering dealing with the problems associated with small-scale electronic systems such as the design of integrated circuits. [4] For the purposes of this article electronics engineering is considered to be a subfield of electrical engineering (see note).
The field first came to prominence in the late nineteenth century with the installation of the first large-scale electrical supply networks. Since then the field has grown dramatically and today the products of electrical engineering can be found across the world.
Its practitioners, called electrical engineers, generally hold an academic degree in their discipline and are responsible for the design and operation of a wide of range of technologies. Examples include the design of telecommunication systems, the operation of electric power stations and the design of electronic household appliances.
-- Spangineer es (háblame) 19:41, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
I feel another image representing the 'lighter' side of EE should be included. I thought the cct diag was quite good, but not perfect. Any one have any suggestions for an 'electronics' image to be included ing the lead para?-- Light current 19:40, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
No :-) I meant lighter as in low current/voltage stuff!-- Light current 00:42, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
First sentence in lead para excludes anything to do with electronics or any of the other sub disciplines by saying electrical engineering is to do with electricity and electromagnetism (only). This cannot be allowed to remain like this if the lead is to give a fair representation of the subject.-- Light current 17:34, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
I feel this picture of a processor is not the right one to illustrate electronics. Its more to do with computer engineering. I recommend another picture for this sub field. Does anyone have any alternative picture suggestions?
Yes that looks excellent!.Thanks. I'll introduce that to the page and see what people think-- Light current 23:14, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Yeah I though this pic so good that I decided to put it at the top of the page.(THanks CJ) So now I need another one for electronics sub discipline.-- Light current 00:51, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Yes that a pretty good one as well! Thank you for providing those pictures! They will liven up the electronics (oops-_ electrical pages a lot.
Why has Teslas picture been removed?-- Light current 01:33, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
What about having one right, one left, one right... etc to make it more visually interesting in the sub disciplines. good few Brownie points for the FAC!!-- Light current 23:51, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
They are about the same area. I found it to be rather offputting if they are both sized at same no of pixels because the aspect ratio is not the same for both pictures.-- Light current 03:27, 15 January 2006 (UTC).
There seems to be some debate as to which images should be included. It seems that Light Current wants two images in the lead and two images in the history section, while Cedars wants one per section. With the longer TOC, I don't think it's unreasonable to have two images above and below each other in the lead. However, I'm not a fan of having two images in the first section of the history section—it just doesn't look that good to me. Could we compromise and leave the two images in the lead but only keep one in the history section? If there must be two images in the history section, I'd recommend putting the second in the second subsection, not in the first. What do you think? -- Spangineer (háblame) 05:21, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
My main problem with two images isn't space, but appearance. If the section was longer and one image could be used in the top left and the other in the bottom right without them overlapping, that'd be fine, but as it is, having both images there squishes the text for 800x600 screens and just doesn't look right to me. I don't have any preference for Tesla over Edison or vice versa, but I don't think that one of them should be put in the second half of the history section, because their work isn't discussed there. -- Spangineer (háblame) 02:50, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I have just rewritten the 2nd paragraph of the lead. The lead section "should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it could stand on its own as a concise version of the article." I believe the lead now adequately covers the history, education, tools and work, and sub-disciplines sections, and that this is sufficient. Before, there was little mention of the historical development, which is a key part of this article. Any problems with this? -- Spangineer (háblame) 05:49, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Page now exceeding 32k. Suggest remove matl from sub disciplines and put it on their main pages.-- Light current 03:58, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
It is important to outline the parallel progression of electrical and electronics/radio in a combined article such as this if we are to avoid bias one way or the other-- Light current 00:58, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
This history section shows that there was in fact far more going on in radio engineering during the war than in electrical engineernig :-)-- Light current 01:01, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Reading this article with an unbiased eye, one would believe that no advances at all took place in any branch of electrical enigneering during WW2. Is this the impression we want to give?-- Light current 06:14, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
I am intending to change this page into a wikipedia:hub page like civil engineering. Any comments?-- Light current 20:14, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi Light current,
I have read the discussion while I was away - I like the previous version of the page better. I am not satisfied that this new version has majority support. Please let us keep the previous version of the page until the electrical and electronics engineering page is up-to-scratch. Not even mentioning the content, particular things that could be improved include getting rid of bad formatting and the redundant "[edit]" text, fixing citations, fixing length, etc. The previous version was proof-read many, many times - I have a feeling this new version hasn't beeen proof-read much at all. I should also remind you that previous version has already been endorsed in this survey. I am going to revert to the previous version of the page shortly.
Sincerely,
Cedars 13:33, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi Light current,
I took time-out because I felt there was no way I could productively contribute to discussion without getting unnecessarily upset. However, before I left I did outline my viewpoint very clearly here. I am honestly happy to compromise, but redirecting to an article which even by the most superficial standards is not up-to-scratch is not what I believe to be a satisfactory compromise. I honestly do not believe I am being any less pragmatic than you - although I really am willing to settle on the right compromise. I will copy these comments to the electrical engineering talk page so that other interested parties have an understanding of why I, like others, am reverting.
Sincerely,
Cedars 13:50, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi Light current,
I really do not want to be banned, I really want to work this out. It is okay for you to place an AfD tag on the page just please do it in the correct manner (so I can oppose the deletion).
I have added an extended note on the issue to the page please feel free to edit it to present your viewpoint.
Together I am sure we can work things out (I will not be editing for the next 5 hours).
Cedars 03:13, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
P.S. Please add new comments to the bottom of my talk page.
Hi Light current,
There are three simple steps to nominate an article for deletion, you can read them here. If you follow the three steps your AfD tag will not be removed until the users of Wikipedia have reached a decision on the matter. Otherwise the tag will be removed as there is no point having an AfD tag that cannot be acted upon. If you want me to remove the tag, do nothing and I will remove the tag in a few hours. If you want to keep the tag, please follow the steps given here. If you need further assitance, please visit the helpdesk it is specifically designed to provide new users with help using Wikipedia.
Thanks for your time,
Cedars 05:36, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
P.S. Please add new comments to the bottom of my talk page.
Hi Light current,
Your last edit to the electrical engineering page here destroyed the formatting of the page. Please make sure to preview your changes before you apply them.
Thanks,
Cedars 03:46, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi Light current,
I don't disagree that the lead picture in the article is dark. I may be able to tinker with it to change the look. However if you have an alternative picture (and caption) please feel free replace the current picture with it. Ideally I think the article needs something that looks good, is relevant to the subject and is not used elsewhere in the article.
Cedars 03:20, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi Light current,
I noticed you removed my picture again. Can you please post something to replace it in the next two hours given the FAC comments.
Thanks,
Cedars 03:22, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Light current, if you don't agree with the feature article nomination, please say why using the "leave comments" link. I would really appreciate your support on this however there is no need for more than one person to nominate an article for featured status. Cedars 03:45, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi Light current,
Since you are now formally objecting to the FA nomination, would you mind leaving the electrical engineering article alone at least until the nomination is complete. If you want you can further escalate tensions between us, but I fail to see what purpose it would serve.
Cedars 23:52, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
Yes I BW would! Are you going to ban everyone else who objected from editing the page? Grow up! Hi Light current,
Would it be possible to stick with just one picture for the lead of electrical engineering? I believe otherwise the pictures start to distract from the content.
Cheers,
Cedars 01:12, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
really don't want two images in the lead, it makes the article look cluttered. Also please check the articles after you edit them, right now there is a huge space between the first two paragraphs. Why did you add this when no other article has such spacing? Cedars 03:33, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
There is nothing in the NPOV policy here about keeping two images in the lead. I am sorry but I really feel strongly that only one image should be kept for the lead. Maybe we can select a better single picture for the article? Cedars 03:41, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
These are comments I posted to Light current regarding my recent reverts
Hi Light current,
I have read the discussion while I was away - I like the previous version of the page better. I am not satisfied that this new version has majority support. Please let us keep the previous version of the page until the electrical and electronics engineering page is up-to-scratch. Not even mentioning the content, particular things that could be improved include getting rid of bad formatting and the redundant "[edit]" text, fixing citations, fixing length, etc. The previous version was proof-read many, many times - I have a feeling this new version hasn't beeen proof-read much at all. I should also remind you that previous version has already been endorsed in this survey. I am going to revert to the previous version of the page shortly.
Sincerely,
Cedars 13:33, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
My replies to Cedars constant reversion without agreement or proper discussion-- Light current 14:20, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Please discuss why you are undoing my changes before you undo them. Otherwise I am just going to undo your changes (like I already have). The improved lead section is necessary if the article is to have any chance at featured status. Also regarding the terminology, I find it awkward to have the discussion in a separate section. In short, if the terminology is so important it should be noted in the lead. Cedars 09:32, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
The two are not mutually exclusive. What exactly is inaccurate about the current article because accuracy is something I seriously value and if there is something inaccurate we should fix it? Cedars 00:37, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Nevertheless, this argument is not going to move us forward with editing the article. I don't have the time to edit a whole heap of articles and I would rather make the electrical engineering article a good one than anything else. I have also been a Wikipedia longer than you so this claim that I don't know how it works is a really strange one. But putting that to one side, what needs to be done to get the electrical engineering article to a satisfactory point for you? Cedars 01:12, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I am more of a doer than a thinker and my edits probably cause far less disruption than yours.
However, if we can find a way to move forward that would be great. I suggested on the talk page of EE, maybe since you have stated you don't want to work with me or care about my opinions you might leave the electrical engineering article alone. I have left the electrical and electronics engineering article alone thus far. Otherwise please tell me what needs to be done to bring the EE article up to your level of satisfaction. Cedars 02:40, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi Light current,
I noticed you tagged the electrical engineering article with a redirect for deletion notice. But the page is not a redirect and there is no entry for it on the redirects for deletion listings so I have removed the notice.
Sincerely,
Cedars 02:45, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
P.S. Please add new notes to the bottom of my talk page, cheers.
Hi Light current,
I noticed you tagged the electrical engineering article with an article for deletion notice but did not create an article for deletion page. I have therefore removed the AfD notice.
Cedars 04:07, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Please stop reverting electrical engineering. CJ's picture is now prominently featured in the article. I am happy to replace the current lead picture with a better lead picture. I really don't understand what more you want. Cedars 01:15, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Also, I am happy to go to a vote if necessary but votes take such long time. It is better if we can resolve this without a vote. Cedars 01:22, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi Light current,
I have created a new article for you to add extra history on the profession to. It is important to keep the history in the main article concise but please feel free to expand the sub-article and once it reaches a stable point we can add a sub-article link to it from the article (not just a see also link).
Cedars 00:54, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi Light current,
You recently reverted my work on the electrical engineering page without discussing it here. I created a sub-page for you in the hope we would avoid an edit war. Why isn't a sub-page sufficient to discuss your ideas?
Cedars 01:08, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Light current,
Could we perhaps use this page to quickly discuss your changes? I really need to talk to you about the changes. I am sure if we work together we can reach a compromise and hopefully develop a better understanding of each other's approaches. If your up for it reply here. Otherwise I am just going to keep making changes to the article in the way I believe it should be changed and probably upsetting you (which I don't mean to do).
Cedars 01:41, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi Light current,
I realize we've had some difficulty creating a proper dialogue [1] but I really want to sort these changes out. So hopefully this helps you understand the reason for my changes:
I really hope this resolves our dispute. Please consider that these changes were not easy to make, I had to spend a fair 30 minutes looking for references on the magnetron and radar as well as reviewing all the changes and copying text from old versions, etc.
Cedars 02:44, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Light current,
I really want to resolve this dispute. But you keep deleting my talk page comments. If you don't talk to me I cannot understand why you are making the changes you are making. And I'll have to keep changing the artcle in a way that I feel best fits with my own opinion on how the article should be. You have complained about me not discussing changes before - well now I am willing to put in some time to discuss my changes (I can't guarentee much but I'll give you what I can).
Cedars 01:47, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
P.S. Feel free to post your thoughts to my talk page that way I can quickly access them.
You haven't really replied to them though. Could we perhaps conduct a discussion on my talk page, if your talk page is inappropriate? My real concern is that with your changes the history section (which was originally very brief) is becomming excessively large. Surely there is a way we could move your changes to a sub-article thus keeping the history section (and whole article) at a reasonable size? Cedars 01:58, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Ill talk about it tomorrow -- DEEP breaths now!
Hi Light current,
If you want to play the 3RR rule then please make sure you don't revert the article more than 3 times yourself. Also please list the 3 reverts I have done. I don't believe I am even close to violating the 3RR rule?
Cedars 01:36, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
I compromise on electrical and electronic engineering in lead-- Light current 04:14, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
I submit this request for suggestions from interested parties on how to totally restructure the pages on electrical and electronic engineering in all their forms and using a worldwide NPOV perspective.
A number of other pages have been created during the course of the recent discussions, and I would ask interested parties to look at all these to see what can be salvaged from them to make a new page (or set of pages) relating to electrical and/or electronics engineering.
Maybe the first question to ask ourselves is : can electrical and electronic exist and be discussed on the same page or do we need different pages for each but outlining the overlap, similarities and differences., Also, do we need to focus on the education and training of both sorts of engineer, of do we just talk about the sorts of work they do?
Pages to look at: electronics engineering electronics electrical engineering electrical and electronics engineering
There may also be sub pages created under electrical engineering. Please also take alook at these. Could people please respond here in the first instance? -- Light current 03:45, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Also please see subfields of electrical engineering-- Light current 16:14, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
For earlier discussion see Talk:Electrical engineering/Archive 1
For earlier discussion see Talk:Electrical engineering/Archive 2
OK, so as I see it, the issue is that in one part of the world electrical engineering is the main field and electronics engineering is a subfield, and in another part of the world it's reversed. In this case, here is what should, by the rules and convention, be done.
I've put merge tags on the three articles Electrical says to merge to electronics, and visa versa, and the electrical and electronics article has two merge tags. Somebody should consider fixing the goddamn problem instead of expending time edit warring over the tags. Phil Sandifer 16:59, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Electrical engineering Information
Electrical engineering is an engineering discipline that deals with the study and application of electricity and electromagnetism. Its practitioners are called electrical engineers. Electrical engineering is a broad field that encompasses many subfields including those that deal with power, instrumentation engineering, and telecommunications. Some common useages, particularly in North America, include the field of Electronics engineering. There is considerable overlap between both Electrical and Electronic engineering fields in practice, and in some instances the two phrases may be used interchangably.
Electronic engineering Information
Electronics engineering is an engineering discipline that deals with the study and application of electronic devices, systems and electronic transport phenomena in semiconductors. Its practitioners are called electronics engineers. Electronic engineering is a broad field that encompasses many subfields including those that deal with control engineering, signal processing, and computer engineering. Some common useages, particularly in North America, include the field of Electronics engineering into that of Electrical engineering. There is considerable overlap between both Electrical and Electronic engineering fields in practice, and in some instances the two phrases may be used interchangably.
Electrical and Electronic engineering (disambiguation) InformationElectrical engineering, and Electronic engineering may refer to:
There is considerable overlap between both Electrical and Electronic engineering fields in practice, and in some instances the two phrases may be used interchangably. |
Agreed I have stirred the soup somewhat, but with the intention of putting everything into the pot to see what weve got before trying to distill it into as many separate parts as needed. Now I think we are at the see what we've got stage. I welcome any more comments as to how to deal with it.-- Light current 04:05, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Barberio, Im just slightly uneasy with your definition of electrical engineering including telecomms and signal processing etc. I would have said these were firmly in the electronics eng area. Im interested to know where you see the dividing line between electrical eng and electronics eng at present so we can try to come to some initial compromise and make initial decisions on the splitting the material into the appropriate pages.-- Light current 22:50, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
We're all capable of assessing the situation if we have enough contributions from around the world. There are no experts on this subject as you'll see if you look at the different university definitions of the two subjects. In fact, I think the WP editors are in a better poistion to define the differences than persons from a single country beacuse we have the advantage of communication and discussion with each other. I feel the discussion is going well and Barberio has presented an excellent starting point for discussion. I think we all ought to consider and discuss his proposals before moving on.-- Light current 23:22, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
I thank you for your speedy reply here r b-j and for your comments. It does semm that there is a definite difference between the US terminology and that used in Europe and if youve read any of the above discussion youll know that were trying to make these articles global in appeal with no bias for or against any particular country. So I hope you will continue to comment here as the discussion progresses and we all try to hammer out some sort of accepatble compromise definitions. Forgive our ignorance over here in the UK but I assume that a tech certificate school does not award degrees? Is that right? THanks again.:-) -- Light current 07:16, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
After some thoughts I have a proposal that maybe others could expand on (or knock down).We have a page called Electrical and electronics engineering that is mainly a dismab page explaining the different terminologies in different countries and then we link directly to different pages on all the sub fields of both sorts of engineering. This way I think we may be able to bypass some of the more contentious issues about who actually does what and it would also avoid duplication of material. On this main page we could indicate the overlap between disciplines and also include the common training and education requirements of engineers. We do not include any of the specialisms in detail on the page.
So basically we dont have pages on EITHER electrical eng OR electronics eng as such, (but the existing pages with these titles would be redirected to the new 'hub' page electrical and electronics engineering before the reader is pointed to the page of his choice. THe only problem here is what to do with the history stuff. I propose that it is put on a page called history of electricity or something. -- Light current 16:57, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Definitions from Chambers's Twentieth Century Dictionary
Definitions from Encyclopedia Britannica 2005 Deluxe Edition CD-ROM
Pronunciation: i-lek-trä-niks Function: noun plural Date: 1910 1 singular in construction : a branch of physics that deals with the emission, behavior, and effects of electrons (as in electron tubes and transistors) and with electronic devices 2 : electronic devices or equipment
Pronunciation: i-lek-trik Function: adjective Etymology: New Latin electricus produced from amber by friction,electric, from Medieval Latin, of amber, from Latin electrum amber, electrum, from Greek ektron; akin to Greek lekt‹r beaming sun Date: 1675
1 or
elec-tri-cal : of, relating to, or operated by electricity
2 : exciting as if by electric
shock an electric performance an electric personality; also :
charged with strong emotion the roomwas electric with tension
4 : very bright
electric blue
electric orange
Compiled by: --
Electron Kid
04:02, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
I would like to see the photos of Edison and Tesla replaced in the new article's history section if there is room, as I think its interesting to see what these people looked like. I had not seen a picture of Tesla before as Im sure many others havent.-- Light current 22:26, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Well thats OK. Maybe we can link to the existing articles/photos intead of taking up room here?-- Light current 01:58, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Moved here from article page as advertised-- Light current 00:51, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Electricity has been a subject of scientific interest since at least the seventeenth century. However it was not until the nineteenth century that research into the subject started to intensify. Notable developments in this century include the work of Georg Ohm who in 1827 quantified the relationship between the electric current and potential difference in a conductor and the work of Michael Faraday who in 1831 discovered electromagnetic induction.
However during these years the study of electricity was largely considered to be a subfield of physics and hence the domain of physicists. It was not until the late nineteenth century that universities started to offer degrees in electrical engineering. The Darmstadt University of Technology established the first chair of electrical engineering worldwide in 1882 and offered a four year study course of electrical engineering in 1883. In 1882, MIT offered the first course on electrical engineering in the United States. This course was organized by Professor Charles Cross who was head of the Physics department and who later became a founder of the American Institute of Electrical Engineers (which later became the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers). In 1885, the University College London founded the first chair of electrical engineering in the United Kingdom and, in 1886, the University of Missouri established the first department of electrical engineering in the United States. [2]
During this period, work in the area increased dramatically. In 1882, Edison switched on the world's first large-scale electrical supply network that provided 110 volts direct current to fifty-nine customers in lower Manhattan. In 1887, Nikola Tesla filed a number of patents related to a competing form of power distribution known as alternating current. In the following years a bitter rivalry between Tesla and Edison, known as the " War of Currents", took place over the preferred method of distribution.
Tesla's work on induction motors and polyphase systems influenced electrical engineering for years to come. Edison's work on telegraphy and his development of the stock ticker proved lucrative for his company (which eventually became one of the world's largest companies, General Electric). As well as the contributions of Edison and Tesla, a number of other figures played an equally important role in the progress of electrical engineering at this time.
In 1896, Guglielmo Marconi made the world's first wireless radio transmission. In 1905, John Fleming invented the first radio tube, the diode. One year later, in 1906, Robert von Lieben and Lee De Forest independently developed the amplifier tube, called the triode.
In the 1928, the first successful transatlantic television transmission was made from London to New York. Manfred von Ardenne introduced the cathode ray tube and thus the electronic television in 1931
In 1942, Konrad Zuse presented the Z3, the world's first functional computer. In 1946, the ENIAC (Electronic Numerical Integrator and Computer) of John Presper Eckert and John Mauchly followed, beginning the computing era. The arithmetic performance of these machines allowed engineers to develop completely new technologies and achieve new objectives. Early examples include the Apollo missions and the NASA moon landing.
The invention of the transistor in 1947 by William B. Shockley, John Bardeen and Walter Brattain opened the door for more compact devices and led to the development of the integrated circuit in 1959 by Jack Kilby and independently in 1961 by Robert Noyce. In 1958, G.C. Devol and J. Engelberger invented and built in the USA the world's first industrial robot. Such a robot was used for the first time in 1960 in industrial production by General Motors.
In 1968, Marcian Hoff at Intel invented the microprocessor and thus ignited the development of the personal computer. Hoff's invention was part of an order by a Japanese company for a desktop computer, which Hoff wanted to build as cheaply as possible. The first realization of the microprocessor was the Intel 4004, a 4-bit processor, in 1969, but only in 1973 did the Intel 8080, an 8-bit processor, make the building of the first personal computer, the Altair 8800, possible.
I'm seeing a few articles mentioning how an earth ground is used as a "return path" for a circuit. Admittedly, my understanding of electrical engineering is very limited, but I was under the impression that the idea of a literal "return path" through the ground was disproven, and an earth ground is now understood merely as a "source/sink". Reading the article about SWER and ones that link to it, I'm getting impression that there's an electrical path through the ground from a user back to the power plant, which I'm pretty sure is not the case. Could this be clarified? -- NewtN
Moved here from main page cos its not a subfield - its a major field therfore should not be listed as a subfield.-- Light current 01:01, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
| style="vertical-align:top;" | Electronics engineering involves the design and testing of electronic circuits that use the properties of components such as resistors, capacitors, inductors, diodes and transistors to achieve a particular functionality. The tuner circuit, which allows the user of a radio to filter out all but a single station, is just one example of such a circuit.
Before the invention of the integrated circuit in 1959, electronic circuits were constructed from discrete components that could be manipulated by humans. These non-integrated circuits consumed much space and power, were limited in speed although they are still common in some applications. By contrast, integrated circuits packed a large number - often millions - of tiny electrical components, mainly transistors, into a small chip around the size of a coin. This allowed for the powerful computers and other electronic devices we see today. Read more...
why was the history section removed? — Omegatron 01:09, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
History of electricity and radio page.-- Light current 01:32, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Moved from my talk-- Light current 02:37, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi,
The history section was frequently requested when the article underwent peer review. A history section is generally looked upon favourably when an article is nominated for feature status.
Hope that information is helpful.
Cedars 10:06, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Thers no consensus for or against a history section in the so called 'Peer review' Light current
Electrical engineering is a very general term for an engineering discipline that deals with the study and application of electricity, electromagnetism and electronics. Its practitioners are sometimes called electrical engineers. - the 13:38 of Dec. 11, 2005 lead paragraph.
" very general"? "Sometimes" ? I've been taught that using so many qualifiers in such a short paragraph is very weak writing.
Do we have more than one editor so very concerned with miniscule turf wars between one sect and another? -- Wtshymanski 23:55, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
I think its very important to have this explanatory para as the lead para so everyone knows what to expect from the page and its many links to specialities. I also think its important to have the education of electrical engineers outlined to further illustrate the sort of work of which they are generally capable. However I have not included that again this time because I know User:Cedars will just keep reverting to his old version without any discussion on it. Wording of lead para is intended to illustrate the very broad nature (almost all encompassing it seems sometimes)of electrical and electronics engineering. Yes sometimes they are called electronics engineers, like over here. World wide (esp in North America it is a very general term- so I cant see what's weak about the writing-- its the title of the page that's causing the problem. BTW where were you when I was asking for comments on this?
I think this para could do with the syllabus that I included before a couple of times. I think its important to list the things that both engineers study so it can be seen why they can cover such a wide range of final specialites. I therfore propose to make this my next addition if there are no valid arguments against.-- Light current 01:54, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
It does appear to be copied but I dont think a list like this can really be subject to copyright restrictions. If it is, I'll just reorder it then it wont be. I reiterate that this syllabus is very important to the understanding of the capabilities and education of EEs and should therefore be explicitly stated and not just linked to.-- Light current 17:09, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
We are trying to show the similarities and differences between the 2 sorts of engineering here. Now, to my mind there are a number of things that need to be mentioned on a very broad subject such as electrical/electronics engineering. Some are, in no particular order:
To include all these aspects on one page is not going to be possible if we are to keep it to a reasonable size. To define and explain the main differences and similarities between the two aspects, in a way that is not dependent on National usages of the terms 'Electrical engineering' and 'electronic engineering', I felt it essential to include a typical syllabus. THis defines what engineers are trained to do and should be able to do. This syllabus may need to be modified/updated.
Bearing in mind the above posts I feel that the page does need to be split, but not just by hiving off one section. We need to decide what it is we mean to convey on this main page before linking to sub pages which can contain the bulk of the detailed information. I suggest that this page should be describing the training, education and professional aspects only and all other facets put on their own pages.
This page should be a hub page aimed at professional engineers and people who want to be one. Links to other aspects /details should be very obviously placed on the page. As I suggested before, this page should be a HUB page with spokes radiating into the different aspects. In this way I think this huge subject can be handled.
This problem will occur (if it hasnt already) again probably on Mechanical engineering and Civil engineering which are also huge topics. -- Light current 19:06, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
I suggest all interested parties look at civil engineering page for ideas and to see how the problem has been dealt with there. Mechanical engineering is not in a good state I feel.-- Light current 19:14, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Pleas do NOT remove the syllabus before we have decided on how to split the page properly. If you do it is just reverting to the previous version-- Light current 02:29, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Well first of all I would ask you to take a look at civil engineering (as this has a lot of parallels to electrical eng.) and tell me what you think of it. I think its a good format even tho' I ve not been involved with it at all. If we can come to some agreement on the good and bad points of that page, then we have a starting point for electrical engineering.
I think it would be good to standardise the pages on all sorts of engineering, but I notice there is not, as yet, a wiki project on engineering. Im not going to start one but I may join a properly constituted one if someone else takes the lead on it.-- Light current 17:23, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
You have not answered my previous question. So plese do so before taking unilateral action-- Light current 10:58, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Yes I agree demographics section should be trimmed as a start.-- Light current 20:30, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
I do not agree with the removal of the syllabus. But now I think we ought to move on and make the page into a hub as I suggested before with all the sub disciplines/specilaties fanning off as per civil eng page.-- Light current 17:18, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
EEs design PCBs. Why was this removed? — Omegatron 18:06, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
Cleared xs stuff from subfields to give sleeker looking page. All info is available merely by clicking links to main pages. we also need a link to education/ training where the syllabus for both electrical and electronics engineers can be displayed.-- Light current 18:36, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
No definitely not. Do not add any thing back to subfields; theres enough there already. The links have adequate info. Youre trying to turn the page back to what it was -- completely unsatisfactory!-- Light current 03:11, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
If I think a separate article is needed to explain training and education, I shall create one, putting a link from electrical engineering to it. Let me worry about the copyright status (which is no problem at all). List of electrical engineering topics I shall AfD as useless.-- Light current 03:24, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Done it ;-))-- Light current 04:03, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
There is no real point having a hub page which repeats stuff covered on the sub pages. However, in the interests of cooperation, I accept yor current reversion and will not change it back. I will however seek to improve the page still further-- I think it looks much better alreadY! :-))- Light current 02:34, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
The attitude that the list of electrical engineering topics is useless is extremely arrogant. OK in yet another gracious action, I shall alter my decision to AfD this page. I shall try to improve it insted. Happy?-- Light current 02:45, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
Your paragraph does not make grammatical sense. Civil engineering is a good example to follow. If you think its not - explain why not!-- Light current 00:35, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
You must get the idea of every article you work on becoming a featured article out of your head. A featured article is not necessarily a good or useful/informative article from the point of view of the general readership.-- Light current 00:50, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Oh dear!-- Light current 01:05, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Do you really think I care that you find things difficult?? Oh dear!-- Light current 01:30, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Please take a more mature attitude to WP.-- Light current 02:26, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
=
All the material in the Terminology section belongs in the lead. Below I have rearranged the lead to include that info, but it leaves a couple short paragraphs that should be developed further. What do you think?
Electrical engineering is a professional engineering discipline that deals with the study and application of electricity and electromagnetism. A broad field, it encompasses many subfields including those that deal with power, control systems, electronics and telecommunications. Sometimes, electrical engineering is distinguished from electronics engineering, with electrical engineering dealing with the problems associated with large-scale electrical systems such as power transmission and motor control, and electronics engineering dealing with the problems associated with small-scale electronic systems such as the design of integrated circuits. [4] For the purposes of this article electronics engineering is considered to be a subfield of electrical engineering (see note).
The field first came to prominence in the late nineteenth century with the installation of the first large-scale electrical supply networks. Since then the field has grown dramatically and today the products of electrical engineering can be found across the world.
Its practitioners, called electrical engineers, generally hold an academic degree in their discipline and are responsible for the design and operation of a wide of range of technologies. Examples include the design of telecommunication systems, the operation of electric power stations and the design of electronic household appliances.
-- Spangineer es (háblame) 19:41, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
I feel another image representing the 'lighter' side of EE should be included. I thought the cct diag was quite good, but not perfect. Any one have any suggestions for an 'electronics' image to be included ing the lead para?-- Light current 19:40, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
No :-) I meant lighter as in low current/voltage stuff!-- Light current 00:42, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
First sentence in lead para excludes anything to do with electronics or any of the other sub disciplines by saying electrical engineering is to do with electricity and electromagnetism (only). This cannot be allowed to remain like this if the lead is to give a fair representation of the subject.-- Light current 17:34, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
I feel this picture of a processor is not the right one to illustrate electronics. Its more to do with computer engineering. I recommend another picture for this sub field. Does anyone have any alternative picture suggestions?
Yes that looks excellent!.Thanks. I'll introduce that to the page and see what people think-- Light current 23:14, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Yeah I though this pic so good that I decided to put it at the top of the page.(THanks CJ) So now I need another one for electronics sub discipline.-- Light current 00:51, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Yes that a pretty good one as well! Thank you for providing those pictures! They will liven up the electronics (oops-_ electrical pages a lot.
Why has Teslas picture been removed?-- Light current 01:33, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
What about having one right, one left, one right... etc to make it more visually interesting in the sub disciplines. good few Brownie points for the FAC!!-- Light current 23:51, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
They are about the same area. I found it to be rather offputting if they are both sized at same no of pixels because the aspect ratio is not the same for both pictures.-- Light current 03:27, 15 January 2006 (UTC).
There seems to be some debate as to which images should be included. It seems that Light Current wants two images in the lead and two images in the history section, while Cedars wants one per section. With the longer TOC, I don't think it's unreasonable to have two images above and below each other in the lead. However, I'm not a fan of having two images in the first section of the history section—it just doesn't look that good to me. Could we compromise and leave the two images in the lead but only keep one in the history section? If there must be two images in the history section, I'd recommend putting the second in the second subsection, not in the first. What do you think? -- Spangineer (háblame) 05:21, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
My main problem with two images isn't space, but appearance. If the section was longer and one image could be used in the top left and the other in the bottom right without them overlapping, that'd be fine, but as it is, having both images there squishes the text for 800x600 screens and just doesn't look right to me. I don't have any preference for Tesla over Edison or vice versa, but I don't think that one of them should be put in the second half of the history section, because their work isn't discussed there. -- Spangineer (háblame) 02:50, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I have just rewritten the 2nd paragraph of the lead. The lead section "should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it could stand on its own as a concise version of the article." I believe the lead now adequately covers the history, education, tools and work, and sub-disciplines sections, and that this is sufficient. Before, there was little mention of the historical development, which is a key part of this article. Any problems with this? -- Spangineer (háblame) 05:49, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Page now exceeding 32k. Suggest remove matl from sub disciplines and put it on their main pages.-- Light current 03:58, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
It is important to outline the parallel progression of electrical and electronics/radio in a combined article such as this if we are to avoid bias one way or the other-- Light current 00:58, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
This history section shows that there was in fact far more going on in radio engineering during the war than in electrical engineernig :-)-- Light current 01:01, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Reading this article with an unbiased eye, one would believe that no advances at all took place in any branch of electrical enigneering during WW2. Is this the impression we want to give?-- Light current 06:14, 25 January 2006 (UTC)