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What's this talk under "efficiency"? If the locomotive is considered alone, electric engines would seem to be much more efficient than steam or diesel-electric engines. But the efficiency of the locomotive alone does not, in any way, determine the efficiency of the whole electric traction system. This is because the efficiencies of the power plant and transmission system are not taken into account. If these are considered, then electric engines would not seem to be much efficient. How can it possibly be true? I'll bet that a powerplant is much better at generating electricity then a diesel-engine mounted in a locomotive
The efficiency bit caught my eye too. I believe a large centralized powerplant (read: hydroelectric or nuclear plant) would be more efficient at producing electricity than an on-board diesel engine. However, grid power lines will introduce losses while distributing electricity from the centralized plants, and I'm guessing there will also be losses moving power from the third rail to the locomotive motors, which taken together might decrease the advantages of an electric-only locomotive. At least, that's how I read the section. It would be nice to see the statement quantified in some way.
hypothetical. Mangoe 21:00, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
"United Kingdom (750 V and 1500 V)" There were some 1500V DC overhead installations in the UK, but they have all disappeared. The current system in the UK is 750V DC (south of London and pockets elsewhere) or 25KV AC. TiffaF 15:02, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
"Overall, the flexibility of diesel locomotives and the relative inexpense of their infrastructure has led them to prevail except where legal or other operational constraints dictate the use of electricity. That said, new passenger service has tended to favor electric locomotives, because diesels are incapable of the speeds required in new service; and they remain the only choice for subway use."
This article appears too negative about electric locomotive. Maybe from a US-perspective with a lot of low-speed, low-intensity (in terms of trains per hour) services this is so. For high-capacity lines, either freight, local passenger services or high-speed passenger services, in Europe electric is usually chosen because it can provide high acceleration and heavy haul for freight. TiffaF 15:02, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
There seems to be a bit of a problem here, which I've not had much luck working out through looking for references. "3 phase" seems to mean three things:
The part about use of Three-phase AC induction motors is particularly problematic. I can't find references to defend this, not to mention the sales-pitchy use of "today's advanced", but in any case the article isn't clear about the use of inverters/etc.; there's too much jargon (particularly the word "commutation") and not enough explanation of what the differences are. I'm a bit wary of doing this myself because, as I said, I'm not finding good references. Mangoe 18:49, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
3-ph traction motors are the modern replacement for the traditional DC series wound motor. EMD have built AC traction Diesel-Electrics since the 90s, the europeans have been using this technology for years. Main advantages claimed are: less maintenance, no brushes, comms, flashovers, lighter. Single phase motors are generally only available in small sizes, therefore an AC traction motor is a 3-phase motor. External power supply could be either DC or single phase AC (but not 3-phase, there is only one catenary or third rail after all), it depends on what's available. The on-board inverter converts this supply to Variable Voltage, Variable Frequency (VVVF) 3-phase for the motor. Basically, the motor is supplied with low voltage/low frequency current at start, both increasing with speed. To suit the motor's requirements the ratio of volts to frequency remains constant. One ref to this topic is: [ http://www3.toshiba.co.jp/sic/english/railway/products/vehicle/mmotor_popup.htm] Suckindiesel 23:12, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
I felt myself compelled to add the [[template:Globalize/USA]] markup after user:Mangoe continued to revert back my elimination of stuff which was clearly related to uninformative description of local US situation. He accused me of anti-Americanism, but it was not the case. I would have reverted in the same way any other uninformative and too loca-oriented examples coming from Burkina Faso, Norway, etc. Open to discussion. -- Attilios 21:55, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
I am not sure what this has got to do with electric locomotives. This relates to the electrification system, which is a completely different subject. The interface between the locomotive and the contact system (overhead line or conductor rail) is all that this article should concern itself with. I strongly suggest that this section of the article be moved to the Railway electrification system page. ALECTRIC451 22:33, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
The article should be about electric locomotives, not operating practices, how country ABC does it on railroad XYZ or the presumed environmental friendliness of pure electric propulsion (which would obviously apply to subways, light rail, etc.). As for advantages or disadvantages, I seem to detect an inherent bias in what I have read. In the large scale model railroad world we call it "steam snobbery." All machines have pros and cons, and in the case of locomotives, one railway's pros are another railroad's cons. In other words, the advantages of one technology over the other matter only in the context in which the technology is considered. For example, the electric locomotive has zero advantages compared to steam or Diesel power in areas where there is no electricity. For that reason, I tend to feel that an advantages/disadvantages section may ultimately be of minimal value. Electric locomotives appeared before any internal combustion types, simply because electric motors as practical power sources capable of moving a vehicle as heavy as a locomotive predated internal combustion engines. Steam predated electric propulsion because it was the only means at the time to propel a train. So, does that make steam "better" than electricity or an electric unit better than its Diesel counterpart? I think not! BDD 00:05, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
Where should there be info about the part of the transmission that lies between the pantograph (or shoes) and the motor(s)? How is the current controlled and converted? What semiconductors and other choppers or switches or rheostats have been part of past designs and are part of more recent designs? How does this compare to electric transmissions in hybrid automobiles, boats, ships, submarines, switch engines used to haul ships through canals, etc.? Jack Waugh 22:27, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
The "current situation" section was intended as a replacement for the general "advantages"/"disadvantages"-section, and not as an in-depth description of the developments in the various countries. I guess the title was a very bad choice. Anyway, I think the details about Australia belong to a specific article about electric traction in Australia, and not in this article. -- Kabelleger 18:04, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
The following lines are not up-to-date, if not incorrect, at least for Japan: Africa, South America, Asia. The situation in these countries is similar to that in the US, thus electric >traction is not very widespread in most of these countries. Japan is the first country to implement high-speed (>200 km/h) electric trains in the world (Tokaido Shinkansen began its operation in 1964.) Most of the mainlines are electrified as well as public sector commutor lines of big cities. It is noteworthy that most (passenger) electric trains are emu's. Electric locos are used mainly for freight operations, but recentely emu freight trains began to operate. User: eltonjohn 9 May, 2007)
I prefer electric train title, where electric locomotive is a big and important section. -- Mac 15:22, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
If the motors are mounted right by wheels, does that mean that the body of a typical electic locomotive is mostly an empty shell? Obviously there needs to be a control cab (but that's small, juding from what I've seen on passenger cars with a cab), and if dynamic breaking is used, the resistors need to be mounted somewhere, but what other parts are there? I imagine there might be transformers to convert the voltage from the overhead lines to what is needed by the motors and any passenger cars, and probably some equipment to supply braking energy to the cars.
I guess the related question is whether there's much equipment in an electic locomotive, or whether it would be easy to mount those parts on a passenger car with a cab to build an EMU. JNW2 16:11, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
The article mentions regenerative braking. I'm curious how common this is. The system that varies the power going into the traction motor might become more complicated if it needs to be able to function correctly in reverse; perhaps the article could explore that in more detail. JNW2 16:11, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
In the second para, it is said "Also the power for electric locomotives can come from clean and renewable sources, including hydroelectric power, solar power, and wind turbines.". Solar power and power from wind turbines is intermittent. For example, solar power is only available when the sun is shining, and is therefore unsuitable for powering a train. Ccfn ( talk) 02:59, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
I am sorry to disagree with your words "very suitable". My thinking is wind and solar power are *very unsuitable* for powering trains, and anything else that requires a continuous and reliable supply. Wind power can be a supplement; solar power cannot. You are of course correct in mentioning pumped storage, but I wonder how many electrified railways have such a facility. Ccfn ( talk) 10:15, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Kálmán Kandó has two entries, one describing him as the father of the electric train in 1894 (or, as occasionally posted, 1884) and the other in the historical context of his first actual installation, in Italy 1n 1902. I have been removing the the father of the electric train post in favor of the chronological one, but in doing so am I underestimating his importance; does he deserve the two entries here? -- Old Moonraker ( talk) 14:19, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
The DC propulsions (wich were existed before his inventions) hadn't future. Fact: His inventions were the fundamentals of all latter electric locomitives. Previous clumsy technological attempts of other engineers hadn't future.
Hungarians invented the electric motor too in 1828. Look==> electric motor
Only some rapid transit system operate with DC system. The so-called "Locomotives" are not metropolitan transit systems.
The first AC locomotive was built by Kálmán Kandó in 1894. Why didn't somebody built AC locomotives before Kandó? Because it was not constructable. It contained more than 18 new patents and inventions which didn't exist before Kandó. The serials of this inventions made it possible to build AC locomotives.
Ganz company was the master of AC electricty in XIX and early XX. century. Ganz company invented also the first real
transformer ! Ganz invented also AC power distribution system and first AC
electricity meter
I have edited the section concerning Valtellina railway and Kalman Kando's contribution to it. I have removed the erroneous statements that the Valtellina railway and locomotives were "a system from Westinghouse" and "supplied by Westinghouse".
This is an understandable misconception, because the history in reality goes like this:
Kando graduated from the faculty of mechanical engineering at the technical university of Budapest in 1892. He joined in 1893 the "Paris Compagnie de Fives" in Lille, France, where he worked in the electro-technical division designing induction motors. The company was not owned by Westinghouse nor had anything to do with Westinghouse Electric. Kando returned to Budapest to work at Ganz Electric Works in 1894, where he stayed until 1906.
The Valtellina railway (1902) did not use any designs by Westinghouse.
Because of the success of the Valtellina railway, Italian government supported the founding of Societa Italiana Westinghouse with American capital in 1905, and Kando was invited to undertake the management of this company. The company bought Kando's patents. While there, from 1907 to 1915, Kando led the development of several Italian electric locomotives.
Kando was not employed by Westinghouse previously.
So it is not correct to state that Kando used "system by Westinghouse", when it actually was the other way round!
After 1917, Kando worked as a consultant for Westinghouse Electric and spent some time at Westinghouse in the USA. Later he served as the managing director of Ganz Electric Works, where he developed the electro-mechanical converter, allowing the use of three-phase motors powered from single-phase alternating current, thus eliminating the need for two overhead conductor wires.
BTW, I do not buy the Hungarian version of the story that Kando is "the father of the electric train" because there are certainly several fathers for the electric train, but definitely he is one of them! 88.114.213.239 ( talk) 16:32, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locomotiva_FS_E.430 It is exactly the loco we are talking about. It states unequivocally that it is manufactured in Hungary in 1900 by Ganz (electrical parts) and Mavag (Royal Hungarian state mechanical works) (mechanical parts). No mention whatsoever of Westinghouse. So it is quite obvious that Duffy has it wrong. Here: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locomotiva_FS_E.550 is a later design from 1906 that is manufactured by Societa Italiana Westinghouse, as can be expected from the history that we know. Here: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locomotiva_FS_E.380 is another constructed by Ganz in 1905, before the Westinghouse era. Here: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locomotiva_FS_E.330 ia a much later one (1912) by Societa Italiana Westinghouse, presumably also developed under the direction of Kando. IMO, it has simply escaped Duffy's attention that the earliest Italian electric locos were not manufactured by Societa Italiana Westinghouse.
Here is another interesting story: http://www.ilmondodeitreni.it/trifase_parte_1.htm (sorry, also in Italian). I don't speak Italian either, but the railway facts can be understood without too much pain :) Here is a biography from Hungary, but seems not to be overly partial: http://www.omikk.bme.hu/archivum/angol/htm/kando_k.htm 88.114.213.239 ( talk) 18:28, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
The first sentence in this newly labelled paragraph is: "The first known electric locomotive was built by"... etc. Seems contradictory, given that RT systems aren't usually loco-hauled. Proposing a revert. -- Old Moonraker ( talk) 17:26, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
DC traction means only suburban and metropolitan trains. The real so-called locomotives which are not local but long-distance trains are always AC tractions. Some modern locomotives ( like TGV) have very serious AC/DC converters and phase conventers, therefore the most modern trains can use DC, but O N L Y when they entered the suburban area
Mangoe, Have you ever been in Italy? I've been 8 times in Italy. Your statement sounds irrealistic. However, I've many Italian friends. I will ask them about it. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Stubes99 (
talk •
contribs)
09:23, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
A Discovery channel program "Massive machines" with a Chris. Claims the first electric train In Switzerland was built and run in 1829. Being able to run at 6 km/h with passengers facing the side of the train (b/w photo was shown). The reason for electric power was coal demand, and a surplus of high mountains and water = hydropower. Electron9 ( talk) 01:46, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
I find it odd that Battery locomotive is a section of Electric locomotive, but then again, I notice that Electric Vehicle includes both rail and non-railed vehicles (ie buses and cars). I may be wrong, but I have always associated electric locomotives with an electrified railway, whereas non-railed electric vehicles are powered by batteries (or capacitors); I have never thought of a trolleybus as an electric bus, because the latter traditionally ran soley off batteries (unlike more modern hybrids). I also note that whilst the electric bus article includes trolleybus as a non-autonomous electric bus, it then just occasionally refers to the trolleybus article.
Just to complicate matters further the Electric Vehicle article says it is also referred to as an electric drive vehicle, and specifically includes onboard generation, as in a diesel-electric locomotive or most electro-diesel locomotives. I think that approach is wrong, and just leads to a messy article with much information that should be hived off into separate more specific articles, as with electric bus vs trolleybus and electric locomotive vs diesel-electric locomotive.
So, should there be a separate battery locomotive (aka battery-electric locomotive) article as with buses, or should the information be kept here, with the current redirects onto this section, on the basis that it's still an electric locomotive? Tim PF ( talk) 17:09, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
Is a battery locomotive the same as an accumulator railcar? If so, we should consider harmonising the separate article on the latter with the section here about the former. Perhaps accumulator railcar should be the main article and mention battery locos, and the section here could be a brief summary of both with a link to the main article. Bermicourt ( talk) 09:20, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
The caption and title of this image suggests that these are the controls of an electric locomotive, but there is also a link to an external view here—it's an EMU. I suppose we should take it out, for accuracy. Views? -- Old Moonraker ( talk) 05:23, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
One can read the passages cited from Duffy online, and the quite clearly do not support any priority claims for Kando other than the use of single-phase transmission to three-phase motors. On p. 116: "The first railway to use three-phase supply and three-phase induction motors was the Lugarno tramway, on which Brown installed a 40 Hz system in 1896." Kando's system is shown as not being put into action until three years later. At the very least, Duffy does not say that Kando was first at AC traction. Mangoe ( talk) 17:56, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
Sorry boy, but it is not true. In 1894, Hungarian engineer Kálmán Kandó developed high-voltage three-phase AC motors and generators for electric locomotives. The design and patents was sold to many countries (for example: Italy Germany) in the same year. Lugano tram is a wrong example against Kandó, because its engineers used the Kando's early patented system for AC traction -- Treblers ( talk) 10:03, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
I'm 99% sure that the term 'electric locomotive' is virtually unheard of outside North America, or perhaps is used in only a few countries. The term is more usually 'electric railway engine' or 'electric engine' or 'electric train' in the UK and at least India. The relatively clumsy term 'locomotive' is, in my experience, never, ever used outside NA. I did some quick googling, and that seemed to be the way they are described. GliderMaven ( talk) 17:12, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
SQM operates probably some of the world's oldest (built around 1927) electric locomotives still in regular service, and much of the infrastructure is about the same age, in particular the overhead line. Might be an interesting addition to the article, but I'm not sure if it fits and where to put it, since the article seems a bit over-illustrated already. If desired I can also provide other pictures. -- Kabelleger ( talk) 21:27, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
Fabulous pictures, and a great story. If that does not demonstrate the advantages of electric traction over all other forms, then I'll eat my hat. And there I was thinking that the GG1's had lasted a long time. Bhtpbank ( talk) 22:13, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
since it and the rest of the article are large. But what to call it ? History of electric railways seems better than History of electric locomotives since the locomotives depend on the electric generators (stationary or on-board)? - Rod57 ( talk) 10:27, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
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The lead section mentions that a supercapacitor could be the power source for an electric locomotive? Can someone cite an example of such a locomotive?
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What's this talk under "efficiency"? If the locomotive is considered alone, electric engines would seem to be much more efficient than steam or diesel-electric engines. But the efficiency of the locomotive alone does not, in any way, determine the efficiency of the whole electric traction system. This is because the efficiencies of the power plant and transmission system are not taken into account. If these are considered, then electric engines would not seem to be much efficient. How can it possibly be true? I'll bet that a powerplant is much better at generating electricity then a diesel-engine mounted in a locomotive
The efficiency bit caught my eye too. I believe a large centralized powerplant (read: hydroelectric or nuclear plant) would be more efficient at producing electricity than an on-board diesel engine. However, grid power lines will introduce losses while distributing electricity from the centralized plants, and I'm guessing there will also be losses moving power from the third rail to the locomotive motors, which taken together might decrease the advantages of an electric-only locomotive. At least, that's how I read the section. It would be nice to see the statement quantified in some way.
hypothetical. Mangoe 21:00, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
"United Kingdom (750 V and 1500 V)" There were some 1500V DC overhead installations in the UK, but they have all disappeared. The current system in the UK is 750V DC (south of London and pockets elsewhere) or 25KV AC. TiffaF 15:02, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
"Overall, the flexibility of diesel locomotives and the relative inexpense of their infrastructure has led them to prevail except where legal or other operational constraints dictate the use of electricity. That said, new passenger service has tended to favor electric locomotives, because diesels are incapable of the speeds required in new service; and they remain the only choice for subway use."
This article appears too negative about electric locomotive. Maybe from a US-perspective with a lot of low-speed, low-intensity (in terms of trains per hour) services this is so. For high-capacity lines, either freight, local passenger services or high-speed passenger services, in Europe electric is usually chosen because it can provide high acceleration and heavy haul for freight. TiffaF 15:02, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
There seems to be a bit of a problem here, which I've not had much luck working out through looking for references. "3 phase" seems to mean three things:
The part about use of Three-phase AC induction motors is particularly problematic. I can't find references to defend this, not to mention the sales-pitchy use of "today's advanced", but in any case the article isn't clear about the use of inverters/etc.; there's too much jargon (particularly the word "commutation") and not enough explanation of what the differences are. I'm a bit wary of doing this myself because, as I said, I'm not finding good references. Mangoe 18:49, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
3-ph traction motors are the modern replacement for the traditional DC series wound motor. EMD have built AC traction Diesel-Electrics since the 90s, the europeans have been using this technology for years. Main advantages claimed are: less maintenance, no brushes, comms, flashovers, lighter. Single phase motors are generally only available in small sizes, therefore an AC traction motor is a 3-phase motor. External power supply could be either DC or single phase AC (but not 3-phase, there is only one catenary or third rail after all), it depends on what's available. The on-board inverter converts this supply to Variable Voltage, Variable Frequency (VVVF) 3-phase for the motor. Basically, the motor is supplied with low voltage/low frequency current at start, both increasing with speed. To suit the motor's requirements the ratio of volts to frequency remains constant. One ref to this topic is: [ http://www3.toshiba.co.jp/sic/english/railway/products/vehicle/mmotor_popup.htm] Suckindiesel 23:12, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
I felt myself compelled to add the [[template:Globalize/USA]] markup after user:Mangoe continued to revert back my elimination of stuff which was clearly related to uninformative description of local US situation. He accused me of anti-Americanism, but it was not the case. I would have reverted in the same way any other uninformative and too loca-oriented examples coming from Burkina Faso, Norway, etc. Open to discussion. -- Attilios 21:55, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
I am not sure what this has got to do with electric locomotives. This relates to the electrification system, which is a completely different subject. The interface between the locomotive and the contact system (overhead line or conductor rail) is all that this article should concern itself with. I strongly suggest that this section of the article be moved to the Railway electrification system page. ALECTRIC451 22:33, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
The article should be about electric locomotives, not operating practices, how country ABC does it on railroad XYZ or the presumed environmental friendliness of pure electric propulsion (which would obviously apply to subways, light rail, etc.). As for advantages or disadvantages, I seem to detect an inherent bias in what I have read. In the large scale model railroad world we call it "steam snobbery." All machines have pros and cons, and in the case of locomotives, one railway's pros are another railroad's cons. In other words, the advantages of one technology over the other matter only in the context in which the technology is considered. For example, the electric locomotive has zero advantages compared to steam or Diesel power in areas where there is no electricity. For that reason, I tend to feel that an advantages/disadvantages section may ultimately be of minimal value. Electric locomotives appeared before any internal combustion types, simply because electric motors as practical power sources capable of moving a vehicle as heavy as a locomotive predated internal combustion engines. Steam predated electric propulsion because it was the only means at the time to propel a train. So, does that make steam "better" than electricity or an electric unit better than its Diesel counterpart? I think not! BDD 00:05, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
Where should there be info about the part of the transmission that lies between the pantograph (or shoes) and the motor(s)? How is the current controlled and converted? What semiconductors and other choppers or switches or rheostats have been part of past designs and are part of more recent designs? How does this compare to electric transmissions in hybrid automobiles, boats, ships, submarines, switch engines used to haul ships through canals, etc.? Jack Waugh 22:27, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
The "current situation" section was intended as a replacement for the general "advantages"/"disadvantages"-section, and not as an in-depth description of the developments in the various countries. I guess the title was a very bad choice. Anyway, I think the details about Australia belong to a specific article about electric traction in Australia, and not in this article. -- Kabelleger 18:04, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
The following lines are not up-to-date, if not incorrect, at least for Japan: Africa, South America, Asia. The situation in these countries is similar to that in the US, thus electric >traction is not very widespread in most of these countries. Japan is the first country to implement high-speed (>200 km/h) electric trains in the world (Tokaido Shinkansen began its operation in 1964.) Most of the mainlines are electrified as well as public sector commutor lines of big cities. It is noteworthy that most (passenger) electric trains are emu's. Electric locos are used mainly for freight operations, but recentely emu freight trains began to operate. User: eltonjohn 9 May, 2007)
I prefer electric train title, where electric locomotive is a big and important section. -- Mac 15:22, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
If the motors are mounted right by wheels, does that mean that the body of a typical electic locomotive is mostly an empty shell? Obviously there needs to be a control cab (but that's small, juding from what I've seen on passenger cars with a cab), and if dynamic breaking is used, the resistors need to be mounted somewhere, but what other parts are there? I imagine there might be transformers to convert the voltage from the overhead lines to what is needed by the motors and any passenger cars, and probably some equipment to supply braking energy to the cars.
I guess the related question is whether there's much equipment in an electic locomotive, or whether it would be easy to mount those parts on a passenger car with a cab to build an EMU. JNW2 16:11, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
The article mentions regenerative braking. I'm curious how common this is. The system that varies the power going into the traction motor might become more complicated if it needs to be able to function correctly in reverse; perhaps the article could explore that in more detail. JNW2 16:11, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
In the second para, it is said "Also the power for electric locomotives can come from clean and renewable sources, including hydroelectric power, solar power, and wind turbines.". Solar power and power from wind turbines is intermittent. For example, solar power is only available when the sun is shining, and is therefore unsuitable for powering a train. Ccfn ( talk) 02:59, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
I am sorry to disagree with your words "very suitable". My thinking is wind and solar power are *very unsuitable* for powering trains, and anything else that requires a continuous and reliable supply. Wind power can be a supplement; solar power cannot. You are of course correct in mentioning pumped storage, but I wonder how many electrified railways have such a facility. Ccfn ( talk) 10:15, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Kálmán Kandó has two entries, one describing him as the father of the electric train in 1894 (or, as occasionally posted, 1884) and the other in the historical context of his first actual installation, in Italy 1n 1902. I have been removing the the father of the electric train post in favor of the chronological one, but in doing so am I underestimating his importance; does he deserve the two entries here? -- Old Moonraker ( talk) 14:19, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
The DC propulsions (wich were existed before his inventions) hadn't future. Fact: His inventions were the fundamentals of all latter electric locomitives. Previous clumsy technological attempts of other engineers hadn't future.
Hungarians invented the electric motor too in 1828. Look==> electric motor
Only some rapid transit system operate with DC system. The so-called "Locomotives" are not metropolitan transit systems.
The first AC locomotive was built by Kálmán Kandó in 1894. Why didn't somebody built AC locomotives before Kandó? Because it was not constructable. It contained more than 18 new patents and inventions which didn't exist before Kandó. The serials of this inventions made it possible to build AC locomotives.
Ganz company was the master of AC electricty in XIX and early XX. century. Ganz company invented also the first real
transformer ! Ganz invented also AC power distribution system and first AC
electricity meter
I have edited the section concerning Valtellina railway and Kalman Kando's contribution to it. I have removed the erroneous statements that the Valtellina railway and locomotives were "a system from Westinghouse" and "supplied by Westinghouse".
This is an understandable misconception, because the history in reality goes like this:
Kando graduated from the faculty of mechanical engineering at the technical university of Budapest in 1892. He joined in 1893 the "Paris Compagnie de Fives" in Lille, France, where he worked in the electro-technical division designing induction motors. The company was not owned by Westinghouse nor had anything to do with Westinghouse Electric. Kando returned to Budapest to work at Ganz Electric Works in 1894, where he stayed until 1906.
The Valtellina railway (1902) did not use any designs by Westinghouse.
Because of the success of the Valtellina railway, Italian government supported the founding of Societa Italiana Westinghouse with American capital in 1905, and Kando was invited to undertake the management of this company. The company bought Kando's patents. While there, from 1907 to 1915, Kando led the development of several Italian electric locomotives.
Kando was not employed by Westinghouse previously.
So it is not correct to state that Kando used "system by Westinghouse", when it actually was the other way round!
After 1917, Kando worked as a consultant for Westinghouse Electric and spent some time at Westinghouse in the USA. Later he served as the managing director of Ganz Electric Works, where he developed the electro-mechanical converter, allowing the use of three-phase motors powered from single-phase alternating current, thus eliminating the need for two overhead conductor wires.
BTW, I do not buy the Hungarian version of the story that Kando is "the father of the electric train" because there are certainly several fathers for the electric train, but definitely he is one of them! 88.114.213.239 ( talk) 16:32, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locomotiva_FS_E.430 It is exactly the loco we are talking about. It states unequivocally that it is manufactured in Hungary in 1900 by Ganz (electrical parts) and Mavag (Royal Hungarian state mechanical works) (mechanical parts). No mention whatsoever of Westinghouse. So it is quite obvious that Duffy has it wrong. Here: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locomotiva_FS_E.550 is a later design from 1906 that is manufactured by Societa Italiana Westinghouse, as can be expected from the history that we know. Here: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locomotiva_FS_E.380 is another constructed by Ganz in 1905, before the Westinghouse era. Here: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locomotiva_FS_E.330 ia a much later one (1912) by Societa Italiana Westinghouse, presumably also developed under the direction of Kando. IMO, it has simply escaped Duffy's attention that the earliest Italian electric locos were not manufactured by Societa Italiana Westinghouse.
Here is another interesting story: http://www.ilmondodeitreni.it/trifase_parte_1.htm (sorry, also in Italian). I don't speak Italian either, but the railway facts can be understood without too much pain :) Here is a biography from Hungary, but seems not to be overly partial: http://www.omikk.bme.hu/archivum/angol/htm/kando_k.htm 88.114.213.239 ( talk) 18:28, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
The first sentence in this newly labelled paragraph is: "The first known electric locomotive was built by"... etc. Seems contradictory, given that RT systems aren't usually loco-hauled. Proposing a revert. -- Old Moonraker ( talk) 17:26, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
DC traction means only suburban and metropolitan trains. The real so-called locomotives which are not local but long-distance trains are always AC tractions. Some modern locomotives ( like TGV) have very serious AC/DC converters and phase conventers, therefore the most modern trains can use DC, but O N L Y when they entered the suburban area
Mangoe, Have you ever been in Italy? I've been 8 times in Italy. Your statement sounds irrealistic. However, I've many Italian friends. I will ask them about it. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Stubes99 (
talk •
contribs)
09:23, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
A Discovery channel program "Massive machines" with a Chris. Claims the first electric train In Switzerland was built and run in 1829. Being able to run at 6 km/h with passengers facing the side of the train (b/w photo was shown). The reason for electric power was coal demand, and a surplus of high mountains and water = hydropower. Electron9 ( talk) 01:46, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
I find it odd that Battery locomotive is a section of Electric locomotive, but then again, I notice that Electric Vehicle includes both rail and non-railed vehicles (ie buses and cars). I may be wrong, but I have always associated electric locomotives with an electrified railway, whereas non-railed electric vehicles are powered by batteries (or capacitors); I have never thought of a trolleybus as an electric bus, because the latter traditionally ran soley off batteries (unlike more modern hybrids). I also note that whilst the electric bus article includes trolleybus as a non-autonomous electric bus, it then just occasionally refers to the trolleybus article.
Just to complicate matters further the Electric Vehicle article says it is also referred to as an electric drive vehicle, and specifically includes onboard generation, as in a diesel-electric locomotive or most electro-diesel locomotives. I think that approach is wrong, and just leads to a messy article with much information that should be hived off into separate more specific articles, as with electric bus vs trolleybus and electric locomotive vs diesel-electric locomotive.
So, should there be a separate battery locomotive (aka battery-electric locomotive) article as with buses, or should the information be kept here, with the current redirects onto this section, on the basis that it's still an electric locomotive? Tim PF ( talk) 17:09, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
Is a battery locomotive the same as an accumulator railcar? If so, we should consider harmonising the separate article on the latter with the section here about the former. Perhaps accumulator railcar should be the main article and mention battery locos, and the section here could be a brief summary of both with a link to the main article. Bermicourt ( talk) 09:20, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
The caption and title of this image suggests that these are the controls of an electric locomotive, but there is also a link to an external view here—it's an EMU. I suppose we should take it out, for accuracy. Views? -- Old Moonraker ( talk) 05:23, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
One can read the passages cited from Duffy online, and the quite clearly do not support any priority claims for Kando other than the use of single-phase transmission to three-phase motors. On p. 116: "The first railway to use three-phase supply and three-phase induction motors was the Lugarno tramway, on which Brown installed a 40 Hz system in 1896." Kando's system is shown as not being put into action until three years later. At the very least, Duffy does not say that Kando was first at AC traction. Mangoe ( talk) 17:56, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
Sorry boy, but it is not true. In 1894, Hungarian engineer Kálmán Kandó developed high-voltage three-phase AC motors and generators for electric locomotives. The design and patents was sold to many countries (for example: Italy Germany) in the same year. Lugano tram is a wrong example against Kandó, because its engineers used the Kando's early patented system for AC traction -- Treblers ( talk) 10:03, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
I'm 99% sure that the term 'electric locomotive' is virtually unheard of outside North America, or perhaps is used in only a few countries. The term is more usually 'electric railway engine' or 'electric engine' or 'electric train' in the UK and at least India. The relatively clumsy term 'locomotive' is, in my experience, never, ever used outside NA. I did some quick googling, and that seemed to be the way they are described. GliderMaven ( talk) 17:12, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
SQM operates probably some of the world's oldest (built around 1927) electric locomotives still in regular service, and much of the infrastructure is about the same age, in particular the overhead line. Might be an interesting addition to the article, but I'm not sure if it fits and where to put it, since the article seems a bit over-illustrated already. If desired I can also provide other pictures. -- Kabelleger ( talk) 21:27, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
Fabulous pictures, and a great story. If that does not demonstrate the advantages of electric traction over all other forms, then I'll eat my hat. And there I was thinking that the GG1's had lasted a long time. Bhtpbank ( talk) 22:13, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
since it and the rest of the article are large. But what to call it ? History of electric railways seems better than History of electric locomotives since the locomotives depend on the electric generators (stationary or on-board)? - Rod57 ( talk) 10:27, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
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The lead section mentions that a supercapacitor could be the power source for an electric locomotive? Can someone cite an example of such a locomotive?
216.152.18.131 ( talk) 21:38, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
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