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Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 20:34, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
When the ENSO article was moved to El Niño, it reduced the scope of the article to the warm side of ENSO. That article is now representation of its title, after La Niña information (the cold side of the climate cycle) was moved to its main article. The problem is, this still left a hole regarding ENSO as a whole, which is the parent article to both. This article is being recreated from the leads of those two, and will discuss more information regarding ENSO as a whole, such as the history of its discovery. Thegreatdr ( talk) 12:37, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
Add in the El Niño article? as commented at Thought experiment:
In 2003, Dake Chen and his colleagues “trained” a computer using the data of the surface temperature of the oceans from the last 20 years. [1] Then, using data that had been collected on the surface temperature of the oceans for the period 1857 to 2003, they went through a hindcasting exercise and discovered that their simulation not only accurately predicted every El Niño event for the last 148 years, it also identified the (up to 2 years) looming foreshadow of every single one of those El Niño events. [2]
The result of the move request was: page moved. ~ Cyclonebiskit ( chat) 22:06, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
![]() | The request to rename this article to El Niño–Southern Oscillation has been carried out. |
El Niño Southern Oscillation → El Niño–Southern Oscillation – El Niño/La Niña and Southern Oscillation are actually two linked phenomena: El Niño is the oceanic and the Southern Oscillation is atmospheric component of the cycle. The current title is confusing, as it suggests that it is actually a southern oscillation called El Niño, which is not the case. A number of sources, outlined below, correctly link the two using a hyphen or an "and". No such user ( talk) 09:40, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
Titles of first ten GBook hits clearly indicate that this is a compound name, by separating the terms with a dash/hyphen, an "and" or a slash:
A number of other sources use hyphenated name. Even a few which, strictly, don't, acknowledge that the two phenomena are linked but separate, e.g. British MetOffice in page titled
El Niño, La Niña and the Southern Oscillation says 'ENSO' stands for 'El Niño Southern Oscillation', where 'Southern Oscillation' is the term for atmospheric pressure changes between the east and west tropical Pacific that accompany both El Niño and La Niña episodes in the ocean.
No such user (
talk)
09:55, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
http://www.nippon.com/en/files/a03505en_fig02.jpg
http://i.stack.imgur.com/7IeD2.jpg
Could one of the images above be added here, or there is any copyright issues? ABC paulista ( talk) 01:58, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
I added information about the impact that ENSO has on coral bleaching, noting that coral bleaching results in response to warming ocean waters ~ Kralph1 ( chat) 15:40, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
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"Evidence for an association between ENSO events and heightened levels of malaria transmission is particularly strong"... other diseases discussed as well... Brief discussion with table and chart pp. 398–400
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It would be beneficial to have a statement, maybe at the end of the intro, or even infobox, with a "current status" and a reference or two (e.g. one of the monthly NOAA ENSO update blogs: https://www.climate.gov/news-features/blogs/enso) . I suspect many visitors to this page will be looking to find out current, or at least recent conditions. Thoughts on this?
A side quick comment as well - it might be worth renaming the "Diversity" section to something clearer (e.g. CP El Niño vs. EP El Niño)
Cheers, Uninspired Username ( talk) 21:08, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
Can someone find a better image for the lead? Or at least a clearer caption? We need something more "direct" for the lead, I think. The one at El Niño is also not great so I've asked the same question there. EMsmile ( talk) 12:37, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
I propose that we use more generic main level headings to make it easier for readers to navigate the article (for example "Types", "Components", "Impacts" etc.). Below is the current table of content and I've commented on each one in brackets:
Hi User:Remsense, I see you have just added the "multiple issues" tag to the article: {{Multiple issues|{{Copy edit|date=December 2023}}{{Cleanup reorganize|date=December 2023}} {{Context|date=December 2023}}}}. I actually think the article is fairly good, at least a lot better than many. So I am curious why you think these tags are warranted and what exactly you'd like to see done to address these? EMsmile ( talk) 15:24, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
I've asked Kevin E. Trenberth for his opinion about the quality of this article. Here are his quick off the cuff remarks: "Not liking this much. A bit of a jumble, uneven. This article mixes stuff up. The first is the actual changes in the ENSO physical phenomenon, and there is no clear sign of that. The models do not simulate ENSO well enough so that there is little confidence in their projections, and in any case the projections are off in the future. On the other hand, the consequences of ENSO in terms of the temperature anomalies and precipitation and extremes around the world are clearly increasing and associated with climate change. It then goes on to have a title "Impacts" "On precipitation" and is northern hemisphere oriented. Incredibly nothing on Australia, or NZ, nothing on the Asian monsoon."
Also: "Yes, I have done a LOT on ENSO. I attach 3 recent articles, one is topical on developments this year in The Conversation, one is a book chapter in the AGU ENSO volume, but my chapter covers most stuff. I also attach an update of the main ENSO index: will be featured in a new paper to come out in January on 2023 climate in the ocean."
It would be great if someone had the time and energy to tackle these required improvements to the article. EMsmile ( talk) 10:07, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
I have now carried out the merger that we had discussed here: /info/en/?search=Talk:El_Ni%C3%B1o#Less_overlap_with_the_ENSO_article? EMsmile ( talk) 12:28, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
El Niño Southern Oscillation(with the ñ) is a sufficient title, as following the merger of articles it would describe the phenomenon in the broadest of terms (with El Niño and La Niña bolded in the lede as appropriate). I think ENSO is used widely enough in news media that describing the phenomenon as a whole in that manner satisfies WP:COMMONNAME. I've normally seen ENSO rendered with a dash or slash, though it does appear frequently without it (e.g. BBC, WHO) so if omitting the dash decreases confusion, that would work. Adding "phenomenon" to the title seems redundant as "Oscillation" already frames it as a process/occurrence (El Niño phenomenon would be fine, El Niño Southern Oscillation phenomenon is redundant) – TheAustinMan( Talk ⬩ Edits) 17:39, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
Oscillation is the repetitive or periodic variation, typically in time, of some measure about a central value (often a point of equilibrium) or between two or more different states, i.e. something that goes back and forth periodically, like a pendulum, so oscillations are pretty much a kind of phenomenon (which is any observable event). So, yeah, the redundancy argument seems valid.
Can someone find a better image for the lead? I think the current one and its caption takes too long to read and digest. We need something more "direct" for the lead, I think. The one at El Niño–Southern Oscillation is also not better so I'll ask the same question there. EMsmile ( talk) 12:32, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
I think that right now, the lead includes far too much detail about what causes (or even may cause) the pattern, and very little about what it does, when the lead should really be the other way around. I propose limiting the mention of Walker Circulation to an absolute minimum, and instead devoting a whole paragraph to summarizing regional and economic impacts in more concrete terms. InformationToKnowledge ( talk) 15:18, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
Can we say something about possible causes of the oscillations? Is this Wikipedia article good and relevant for this question?: Recharge oscillator? (so far it's only mentioned under See also) EMsmile ( talk) 11:47, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
I propose that the Overview, El Niño and La Niña sections should be merged into one, because they are redundant, and most fo the information contained in both Warm and Cold phases repeat each other, so the existance of both together warrants WP:REDUNDANTFORK, especially by being placed one just after the other. ABC paulista ( talk) 22:08, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
The (recently expanded) section on related patterns doesn't work for me. I have nothing against excerpts per se, to help us editors be efficient. But in this case, as a lay person reader, I am confronted with a wall of text and keep wondering "so what does have to do with ENSO?". I think what we would need is: either some broad explanatory sentences about what follows in the excerpts. And shorter and fewer excerpts (?). Or maybe move the content to the relevant sections above. E.g. would it fit above somewhere under effects of impacts? Or do we need another section called "Effects on other ocean currents / ocean temperature phenomena / or whatever it is"? EMsmile ( talk) 20:33, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
+++++++++
(Regarding the question on ENSO versus EN-SO): see the AGU monograph. No hyphen. It's a big book 506 pp and large size pages A4: El Niño Southern Oscillation in a changing climate. Trenberth, K. E. 2021: El Niño Southern Oscillation in a changing climate. Chapter 2: ENSO in the global climate system. AGU Monograph, El Niño Southern Oscillation in a changing climate. M. McPhaden, A. Santoso, W. Cai (Eds.), Wiley, pp21-37; ISBN: 978-1-119-54812-6. https://doi.org/10.1002/9781119548164.ch2
The "related patterns" section includes stuff on MJO, whose fluctuations may help trigger events, and which cause short-term variations in the Indo-Pacific, the PDO, which is like a low frequency ENSO (decadal) and modulates ENSO, the Meridional Mode, which is really more a teleconnection pattern, linked to ENSO, and the South Pacific Meridional Mode.
In my book, neither of the last 2 are even mentioned. They would really belong more under teleconnections, and then way after all the major ones (see my book which has a full chapter on teleconnections separate from ENSO). Here's the table of contents part of my book C11: Teleconnections and Patterns of Variability 4540 words 10 Figs 15pp. The links between weather regimes and teleconnections affect how climate change is manifested. The main patterns of variability are described, along with the role of sea surface temperatures 11.1 Weather Regimes
11.2 Teleconnections 11.3 Annular Modes 11.4 SAM 11.5 NAO 11.6 PNA 11.7 PDO and NPI 11.8 AMO 11.9 IOD
Sidebar 11.1: Indices of Natural Variability Patterns of the Climate.
C12: El Niño. 5246 words 10 Figs 15 pp The El Niño phenomenon causes the largest year-to-year perturbations and disruptions in weather and climate around the globe and especially throughout the tropics. It plays a major role in heat movements.
12.1 ENSO and the Mean Pacific Climate 12.2 The Southern Oscillation 12.3 El Niño Events 12.4 ENSO and Hurricanes 12.5 Movement of Heat and Energy with ENSO 12.6 Impacts
The MJO and PDO are really different time-scales but affect the way ENSO has impacts. " The PDO/IPO pattern of SSTs is somewhat similar to that associated with ENSO, except that, by design, it is focused in the extratropics. They have been described as a long-lived El Niño-like pattern of Indo-Pacific climate variability or as a low-frequency residual of ENSO variability on multi-decadal time scales."
From chapter 8: "Another major organized complex is the 30- to 60-day MJO, which takes place primarily from the tropical Indian Ocean to the western tropical Pacific Ocean and is the dominant form of intra-seasonal variation in the tropics. The MJO is characterized by an eastward progression of large regions of both enhanced and suppressed tropical rainfall. The anomalous rainfall is usually first evident over the western Indian Ocean and continues as the MJO propagates over the warm ocean waters of the western and central tropical Pacific. This pattern of tropical rainfall generally weakens as it moves over the cooler ocean waters of the eastern Pacific."
MJO is not mentioned in my book wrt ENSO.
++++++++++ EMsmile ( talk) 10:10, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia uses italics for phrases in other languages and for isolated foreign words that do not yet have everyday use in non-specialized English.
. The question is, do El Niño and La Niña have everyday use in non-specialized English? The presence of the diacritic is not decisive, as various loanwords have retained their diacritics. I think they do not, and should be italicised, but I am open to logical persuasion. Cheers, · · ·
Peter Southwood
(talk):
18:34, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
The excerpt is partly redundant to the other content, so I suggest that the relevant non-redundant content in the excerpt should be merged into the existing text. · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 09:18, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
It is getting pretty big. See the section sizes table in the talk page header. This not taking into account excerpt bloat, which would push it up quite a bit more. · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 09:21, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
I am just relaying here something that Kevin Trenberth suggested: "I include a figure there to show the 3 key fields together: sea level pressure (SO), temperature and rainfall. It is from IPCC and should be openly available: Figure 3.27 from the IPCC AR 4 report ( here) Correlations with the SO index, based on normalized Tahiti minus Darwin sea level pressures, for annual (May to April) means for sea level pressure (top) and surface temperature (center) for 1958–2004, and GPCP precipitation for 1979–2003 (bottom). (from Trenberth et al., 2007)." Personally, I am not finding that figure overly clear. Also it's not compatibly licenced although perhaps we can find the same or a similar figure on the NOAA website where images are compatibly licenced? EMsmile ( talk) 10:41, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
I wanted to check what the current phase of ENSO is, but it is not easy to find, if it is even specified in the article. This is information that a reader may come to the article to find out, and we are either not providing it or the information is well hidden. If we don't want to provide it directly, we should link to websites which do provide it. This has been done for an Australian site. Are there others which should be listed too? · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 06:57, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
I've just done some light copy editing to improve the reading ease score of the lead. Currently, only the first sentence and the last two sentences of the lead (IPCC quotes) still show up in red in the readability tool. I can't think of a better, easier first sentence, can you? It currently says: El Niño–Southern Oscillation (ENSO) is a climate phenomenon that displays irregular
quasi-periodic variations in
winds and
sea surface temperatures over the tropical
Pacific Ocean.
And the last two sentences are like this, should we try to paraphrase this into simpler language (I would be scared to touch this, for fear of changing the meaning through my ignorance): The
IPCC Sixth Assessment Report summarized the scientific knowledge in 2021 for the future of ENSO as follows: "In the long term, it is very likely that the precipitation variance related to El Niño–Southern Oscillation will increase". The scientific consensus is also that "it is very likely that rainfall variability related to changes in the strength and spatial extent of ENSO teleconnections will lead to significant changes at regional scale".
EMsmile (
talk)
11:10, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
El Niño–Southern Oscillation (ENSO) is a global climate phenomenon that emerges from irregular quasi-periodic variations— variations are the cause (not the outcome), and their consequences are much broader than the Pacific — and ENSO is the name for the whole thing. We elaborate details of the phenomenon later in the lead. I have no opinion on the second sentence. No such user ( talk) 12:19, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
irregular quasi-periodicis a mouthful that even made me scratch my head on first reading, and I'd suggest replacing it with
recurringor similar, and explain their periodicity later. No such user ( talk) 11:58, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
El Niño–Southern Oscillation (ENSO) is a climate phenomenon that emerges from certain variations in winds and sea surface temperatures over the tropical Pacific Ocean. Those variations have an irregular pattern but do have some semblance of periodicity or repetition over time. The scientific term for these variations is "quasi periodic". The occurrence of ENSO is not predictable but has certain patterns or cycles. Or too long? EMsmile ( talk) 16:18, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
quasi-periodicalready entails irregularity, by definifition, so the statement
irregular quasi-periodicseems redundant to me, thus IMO we could remove the
irregularterm from the phrase or remove the
quasi-prefix from the
periodicone, and the phrase wouldn't lose its meaning or nuance.
Irregular recurrentalso seems better to me than the current terminology. ABC paulista ( talk) 17:27, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
Irregular recurrent variationsor
Irregular periodic variationsseem colloquial enough for a casual reader to understand the meaning of the phrase. The main issue is the
quasi-periodic, which is almost never used so readers probably aren't familiar with. ABC paulista ( talk) 21:34, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
El Niño–Southern Oscillation (ENSO) is a climate phenomenon that emerges from certain variations in winds and sea surface temperatures over the tropical Pacific Ocean. Those variations have an irregular pattern but do have some semblance of periodicity or repetition over time. The occurrence of ENSO is not predictable but has certain patterns or cycles.EMsmile ( talk) 22:25, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
El Niño–Southern Oscillation (ENSO) is a global climate phenomenon that emerges from variations in winds and sea surface temperatures over the tropical Pacific Ocean. Those variations have an irregular pattern but do have some semblance of cycles. The occurrence of ENSO is not predictable. It affects the climate of xxxEMsmile ( talk) 14:48, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
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This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Kralph1.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 20:34, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
When the ENSO article was moved to El Niño, it reduced the scope of the article to the warm side of ENSO. That article is now representation of its title, after La Niña information (the cold side of the climate cycle) was moved to its main article. The problem is, this still left a hole regarding ENSO as a whole, which is the parent article to both. This article is being recreated from the leads of those two, and will discuss more information regarding ENSO as a whole, such as the history of its discovery. Thegreatdr ( talk) 12:37, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
Add in the El Niño article? as commented at Thought experiment:
In 2003, Dake Chen and his colleagues “trained” a computer using the data of the surface temperature of the oceans from the last 20 years. [1] Then, using data that had been collected on the surface temperature of the oceans for the period 1857 to 2003, they went through a hindcasting exercise and discovered that their simulation not only accurately predicted every El Niño event for the last 148 years, it also identified the (up to 2 years) looming foreshadow of every single one of those El Niño events. [2]
The result of the move request was: page moved. ~ Cyclonebiskit ( chat) 22:06, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
![]() | The request to rename this article to El Niño–Southern Oscillation has been carried out. |
El Niño Southern Oscillation → El Niño–Southern Oscillation – El Niño/La Niña and Southern Oscillation are actually two linked phenomena: El Niño is the oceanic and the Southern Oscillation is atmospheric component of the cycle. The current title is confusing, as it suggests that it is actually a southern oscillation called El Niño, which is not the case. A number of sources, outlined below, correctly link the two using a hyphen or an "and". No such user ( talk) 09:40, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
Titles of first ten GBook hits clearly indicate that this is a compound name, by separating the terms with a dash/hyphen, an "and" or a slash:
A number of other sources use hyphenated name. Even a few which, strictly, don't, acknowledge that the two phenomena are linked but separate, e.g. British MetOffice in page titled
El Niño, La Niña and the Southern Oscillation says 'ENSO' stands for 'El Niño Southern Oscillation', where 'Southern Oscillation' is the term for atmospheric pressure changes between the east and west tropical Pacific that accompany both El Niño and La Niña episodes in the ocean.
No such user (
talk)
09:55, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
http://www.nippon.com/en/files/a03505en_fig02.jpg
http://i.stack.imgur.com/7IeD2.jpg
Could one of the images above be added here, or there is any copyright issues? ABC paulista ( talk) 01:58, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
I added information about the impact that ENSO has on coral bleaching, noting that coral bleaching results in response to warming ocean waters ~ Kralph1 ( chat) 15:40, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
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"Evidence for an association between ENSO events and heightened levels of malaria transmission is particularly strong"... other diseases discussed as well... Brief discussion with table and chart pp. 398–400
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It would be beneficial to have a statement, maybe at the end of the intro, or even infobox, with a "current status" and a reference or two (e.g. one of the monthly NOAA ENSO update blogs: https://www.climate.gov/news-features/blogs/enso) . I suspect many visitors to this page will be looking to find out current, or at least recent conditions. Thoughts on this?
A side quick comment as well - it might be worth renaming the "Diversity" section to something clearer (e.g. CP El Niño vs. EP El Niño)
Cheers, Uninspired Username ( talk) 21:08, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
Can someone find a better image for the lead? Or at least a clearer caption? We need something more "direct" for the lead, I think. The one at El Niño is also not great so I've asked the same question there. EMsmile ( talk) 12:37, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
I propose that we use more generic main level headings to make it easier for readers to navigate the article (for example "Types", "Components", "Impacts" etc.). Below is the current table of content and I've commented on each one in brackets:
Hi User:Remsense, I see you have just added the "multiple issues" tag to the article: {{Multiple issues|{{Copy edit|date=December 2023}}{{Cleanup reorganize|date=December 2023}} {{Context|date=December 2023}}}}. I actually think the article is fairly good, at least a lot better than many. So I am curious why you think these tags are warranted and what exactly you'd like to see done to address these? EMsmile ( talk) 15:24, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
I've asked Kevin E. Trenberth for his opinion about the quality of this article. Here are his quick off the cuff remarks: "Not liking this much. A bit of a jumble, uneven. This article mixes stuff up. The first is the actual changes in the ENSO physical phenomenon, and there is no clear sign of that. The models do not simulate ENSO well enough so that there is little confidence in their projections, and in any case the projections are off in the future. On the other hand, the consequences of ENSO in terms of the temperature anomalies and precipitation and extremes around the world are clearly increasing and associated with climate change. It then goes on to have a title "Impacts" "On precipitation" and is northern hemisphere oriented. Incredibly nothing on Australia, or NZ, nothing on the Asian monsoon."
Also: "Yes, I have done a LOT on ENSO. I attach 3 recent articles, one is topical on developments this year in The Conversation, one is a book chapter in the AGU ENSO volume, but my chapter covers most stuff. I also attach an update of the main ENSO index: will be featured in a new paper to come out in January on 2023 climate in the ocean."
It would be great if someone had the time and energy to tackle these required improvements to the article. EMsmile ( talk) 10:07, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
I have now carried out the merger that we had discussed here: /info/en/?search=Talk:El_Ni%C3%B1o#Less_overlap_with_the_ENSO_article? EMsmile ( talk) 12:28, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
El Niño Southern Oscillation(with the ñ) is a sufficient title, as following the merger of articles it would describe the phenomenon in the broadest of terms (with El Niño and La Niña bolded in the lede as appropriate). I think ENSO is used widely enough in news media that describing the phenomenon as a whole in that manner satisfies WP:COMMONNAME. I've normally seen ENSO rendered with a dash or slash, though it does appear frequently without it (e.g. BBC, WHO) so if omitting the dash decreases confusion, that would work. Adding "phenomenon" to the title seems redundant as "Oscillation" already frames it as a process/occurrence (El Niño phenomenon would be fine, El Niño Southern Oscillation phenomenon is redundant) – TheAustinMan( Talk ⬩ Edits) 17:39, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
Oscillation is the repetitive or periodic variation, typically in time, of some measure about a central value (often a point of equilibrium) or between two or more different states, i.e. something that goes back and forth periodically, like a pendulum, so oscillations are pretty much a kind of phenomenon (which is any observable event). So, yeah, the redundancy argument seems valid.
Can someone find a better image for the lead? I think the current one and its caption takes too long to read and digest. We need something more "direct" for the lead, I think. The one at El Niño–Southern Oscillation is also not better so I'll ask the same question there. EMsmile ( talk) 12:32, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
I think that right now, the lead includes far too much detail about what causes (or even may cause) the pattern, and very little about what it does, when the lead should really be the other way around. I propose limiting the mention of Walker Circulation to an absolute minimum, and instead devoting a whole paragraph to summarizing regional and economic impacts in more concrete terms. InformationToKnowledge ( talk) 15:18, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
Can we say something about possible causes of the oscillations? Is this Wikipedia article good and relevant for this question?: Recharge oscillator? (so far it's only mentioned under See also) EMsmile ( talk) 11:47, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
I propose that the Overview, El Niño and La Niña sections should be merged into one, because they are redundant, and most fo the information contained in both Warm and Cold phases repeat each other, so the existance of both together warrants WP:REDUNDANTFORK, especially by being placed one just after the other. ABC paulista ( talk) 22:08, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
The (recently expanded) section on related patterns doesn't work for me. I have nothing against excerpts per se, to help us editors be efficient. But in this case, as a lay person reader, I am confronted with a wall of text and keep wondering "so what does have to do with ENSO?". I think what we would need is: either some broad explanatory sentences about what follows in the excerpts. And shorter and fewer excerpts (?). Or maybe move the content to the relevant sections above. E.g. would it fit above somewhere under effects of impacts? Or do we need another section called "Effects on other ocean currents / ocean temperature phenomena / or whatever it is"? EMsmile ( talk) 20:33, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
+++++++++
(Regarding the question on ENSO versus EN-SO): see the AGU monograph. No hyphen. It's a big book 506 pp and large size pages A4: El Niño Southern Oscillation in a changing climate. Trenberth, K. E. 2021: El Niño Southern Oscillation in a changing climate. Chapter 2: ENSO in the global climate system. AGU Monograph, El Niño Southern Oscillation in a changing climate. M. McPhaden, A. Santoso, W. Cai (Eds.), Wiley, pp21-37; ISBN: 978-1-119-54812-6. https://doi.org/10.1002/9781119548164.ch2
The "related patterns" section includes stuff on MJO, whose fluctuations may help trigger events, and which cause short-term variations in the Indo-Pacific, the PDO, which is like a low frequency ENSO (decadal) and modulates ENSO, the Meridional Mode, which is really more a teleconnection pattern, linked to ENSO, and the South Pacific Meridional Mode.
In my book, neither of the last 2 are even mentioned. They would really belong more under teleconnections, and then way after all the major ones (see my book which has a full chapter on teleconnections separate from ENSO). Here's the table of contents part of my book C11: Teleconnections and Patterns of Variability 4540 words 10 Figs 15pp. The links between weather regimes and teleconnections affect how climate change is manifested. The main patterns of variability are described, along with the role of sea surface temperatures 11.1 Weather Regimes
11.2 Teleconnections 11.3 Annular Modes 11.4 SAM 11.5 NAO 11.6 PNA 11.7 PDO and NPI 11.8 AMO 11.9 IOD
Sidebar 11.1: Indices of Natural Variability Patterns of the Climate.
C12: El Niño. 5246 words 10 Figs 15 pp The El Niño phenomenon causes the largest year-to-year perturbations and disruptions in weather and climate around the globe and especially throughout the tropics. It plays a major role in heat movements.
12.1 ENSO and the Mean Pacific Climate 12.2 The Southern Oscillation 12.3 El Niño Events 12.4 ENSO and Hurricanes 12.5 Movement of Heat and Energy with ENSO 12.6 Impacts
The MJO and PDO are really different time-scales but affect the way ENSO has impacts. " The PDO/IPO pattern of SSTs is somewhat similar to that associated with ENSO, except that, by design, it is focused in the extratropics. They have been described as a long-lived El Niño-like pattern of Indo-Pacific climate variability or as a low-frequency residual of ENSO variability on multi-decadal time scales."
From chapter 8: "Another major organized complex is the 30- to 60-day MJO, which takes place primarily from the tropical Indian Ocean to the western tropical Pacific Ocean and is the dominant form of intra-seasonal variation in the tropics. The MJO is characterized by an eastward progression of large regions of both enhanced and suppressed tropical rainfall. The anomalous rainfall is usually first evident over the western Indian Ocean and continues as the MJO propagates over the warm ocean waters of the western and central tropical Pacific. This pattern of tropical rainfall generally weakens as it moves over the cooler ocean waters of the eastern Pacific."
MJO is not mentioned in my book wrt ENSO.
++++++++++ EMsmile ( talk) 10:10, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia uses italics for phrases in other languages and for isolated foreign words that do not yet have everyday use in non-specialized English.
. The question is, do El Niño and La Niña have everyday use in non-specialized English? The presence of the diacritic is not decisive, as various loanwords have retained their diacritics. I think they do not, and should be italicised, but I am open to logical persuasion. Cheers, · · ·
Peter Southwood
(talk):
18:34, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
The excerpt is partly redundant to the other content, so I suggest that the relevant non-redundant content in the excerpt should be merged into the existing text. · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 09:18, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
It is getting pretty big. See the section sizes table in the talk page header. This not taking into account excerpt bloat, which would push it up quite a bit more. · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 09:21, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
I am just relaying here something that Kevin Trenberth suggested: "I include a figure there to show the 3 key fields together: sea level pressure (SO), temperature and rainfall. It is from IPCC and should be openly available: Figure 3.27 from the IPCC AR 4 report ( here) Correlations with the SO index, based on normalized Tahiti minus Darwin sea level pressures, for annual (May to April) means for sea level pressure (top) and surface temperature (center) for 1958–2004, and GPCP precipitation for 1979–2003 (bottom). (from Trenberth et al., 2007)." Personally, I am not finding that figure overly clear. Also it's not compatibly licenced although perhaps we can find the same or a similar figure on the NOAA website where images are compatibly licenced? EMsmile ( talk) 10:41, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
I wanted to check what the current phase of ENSO is, but it is not easy to find, if it is even specified in the article. This is information that a reader may come to the article to find out, and we are either not providing it or the information is well hidden. If we don't want to provide it directly, we should link to websites which do provide it. This has been done for an Australian site. Are there others which should be listed too? · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 06:57, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
I've just done some light copy editing to improve the reading ease score of the lead. Currently, only the first sentence and the last two sentences of the lead (IPCC quotes) still show up in red in the readability tool. I can't think of a better, easier first sentence, can you? It currently says: El Niño–Southern Oscillation (ENSO) is a climate phenomenon that displays irregular
quasi-periodic variations in
winds and
sea surface temperatures over the tropical
Pacific Ocean.
And the last two sentences are like this, should we try to paraphrase this into simpler language (I would be scared to touch this, for fear of changing the meaning through my ignorance): The
IPCC Sixth Assessment Report summarized the scientific knowledge in 2021 for the future of ENSO as follows: "In the long term, it is very likely that the precipitation variance related to El Niño–Southern Oscillation will increase". The scientific consensus is also that "it is very likely that rainfall variability related to changes in the strength and spatial extent of ENSO teleconnections will lead to significant changes at regional scale".
EMsmile (
talk)
11:10, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
El Niño–Southern Oscillation (ENSO) is a global climate phenomenon that emerges from irregular quasi-periodic variations— variations are the cause (not the outcome), and their consequences are much broader than the Pacific — and ENSO is the name for the whole thing. We elaborate details of the phenomenon later in the lead. I have no opinion on the second sentence. No such user ( talk) 12:19, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
irregular quasi-periodicis a mouthful that even made me scratch my head on first reading, and I'd suggest replacing it with
recurringor similar, and explain their periodicity later. No such user ( talk) 11:58, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
El Niño–Southern Oscillation (ENSO) is a climate phenomenon that emerges from certain variations in winds and sea surface temperatures over the tropical Pacific Ocean. Those variations have an irregular pattern but do have some semblance of periodicity or repetition over time. The scientific term for these variations is "quasi periodic". The occurrence of ENSO is not predictable but has certain patterns or cycles. Or too long? EMsmile ( talk) 16:18, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
quasi-periodicalready entails irregularity, by definifition, so the statement
irregular quasi-periodicseems redundant to me, thus IMO we could remove the
irregularterm from the phrase or remove the
quasi-prefix from the
periodicone, and the phrase wouldn't lose its meaning or nuance.
Irregular recurrentalso seems better to me than the current terminology. ABC paulista ( talk) 17:27, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
Irregular recurrent variationsor
Irregular periodic variationsseem colloquial enough for a casual reader to understand the meaning of the phrase. The main issue is the
quasi-periodic, which is almost never used so readers probably aren't familiar with. ABC paulista ( talk) 21:34, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
El Niño–Southern Oscillation (ENSO) is a climate phenomenon that emerges from certain variations in winds and sea surface temperatures over the tropical Pacific Ocean. Those variations have an irregular pattern but do have some semblance of periodicity or repetition over time. The occurrence of ENSO is not predictable but has certain patterns or cycles.EMsmile ( talk) 22:25, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
El Niño–Southern Oscillation (ENSO) is a global climate phenomenon that emerges from variations in winds and sea surface temperatures over the tropical Pacific Ocean. Those variations have an irregular pattern but do have some semblance of cycles. The occurrence of ENSO is not predictable. It affects the climate of xxxEMsmile ( talk) 14:48, 17 April 2024 (UTC)