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population 21,000
El Afweyne is the second largest city after Erigavo. What other city could be bigger than it? Lasqory is 34,000 while El Afweyne is double! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.96.160.44 ( talk) 20:18, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Jacob300: Please explain the reason for this edit. It is notability that the specific place names are written in this type of document. Jama Ali Jama, who appears in this next section, was a politician on the Puntland government side when this document was created. It is clear that the actions of Jama Ali Jama were unjust even if fully accept Puntland's claim at the time. Without this explanation, the reader would not notice it.-- Freetrashbox ( talk) 21:01, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
Hi @ Freetrashbox:
Thank you for your message. I removed the sentence stating 'In July 2001, the government of Puntland enacted the "Provisional Constitution of the Republic of Puntland," declaring the Sanaag region, except for El Afwein and the northeastern part of Erigavo, to be its territory.' as it have no relevance to the article as per WP:RELEVANT.
Many thanks Jacob300 ( talk) 15:06, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
Hello @ Freetrashbox:,
I reverted your recent edit since it seems to be pushing a particular POV. I don't see how the non-inclusion of El Afweyn in Puntland's claim is relevant to the article (see WP:RELEVANT). Then is the fact that the subheading "Puntland influence" is implying that Puntland has influence and some sort of control of the town (which it does not claim), which is POV pushing.
This along with the fact that "In July 2001, the government of Puntland enacted the "Provisional Constitution of the Republic of Puntland" is simply wrong since Puntland is not a republic, but a federal member state of Somalia. Gebagebo ( talk) 18:25, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
What you have mentioned is nothing but original research. You have not explained at all how Puntland could possibly influence a town it doesn't claim. Again, I could use the same logic for Caare being based in Qardho. This is clearly POV editing, with the goal of making it seem that Puntland has influence in El Afweyn on the basis that a rebel faction was based near it.
I suggest you desist from any future POV edits like this as that is not accepted in Wikipedia. Gebagebo ( talk) 13:56, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
Again, I don't see how Puntland rebel forces being based in El Afweyn equals influence, especially when no source has stated that. You have once again not explained how exactly Puntland had influence over El Afweyn (a town the state doesn't claim) in 2003 through a rebel faction. It is POV in the sense that you're making it seem that Puntland has influence over said town.
Again, referring to the section as "Influence of the Puntland civil war" isn't feasible since the problem would still exist. You yourself states that you don't strongly disagree with replacing it with "Security", so keeping the section's name as security is probably the only option for now. Gebagebo ( talk) 12:07, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
@ Freetrashbox: The point about the Mexican Constitution is just an example. You have still not shown how the non-inclusion of a town should be added to the town's article. That is not relevant. Gebagebo ( talk) 22:40, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
@ Freetrashbox: Me arguing the non-inclusion of a region according to Puntland's constitution shouldn't be added to the article = political agenda is honestly the furthest stretch I've ever seen. You failed once again to explain how exactly this information is relevant to the El Afweyn article. My statement is very clear and concise. Gebagebo ( talk) 23:34, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
@ Freetrashbox: I also reworded the section a little bit to reflect the content of the sources cited. Gebagebo ( talk) 23:51, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
@ Freetrashbox: I have clarified in my newest edit that Dhuudo town (Dhuudo is not a region) is part of Puntland. I'm pretty sure no reader would magically jump to the "Security" section of the article and only read it instead of the rest of the article.
I'm also pretty sure that, given El Afweyn is such a niche topic for the average Wikipedia reader, that whoever reads the article is already familiar with the Puntland-Somaliland dispute and Somaliland-related topics and is very likely to know that El Afweyn isn't in Puntland. There is no need to add the non-inclusion of a town/district in Puntland's claim into the article itself, that is completely irrelevant. Gebagebo ( talk) 01:07, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
@ Freetrashbox: I highly doubt anyone would misunderstand El Afweyn to be part of Puntland, given that if we forget the niche nature of the article, the infobox, the lead and most of the content clearly describe the town as part of Somaliland. El Afweyn is also not a border town, I don't know where you're getting this information from.
The Transitional Constitution of Puntland regional government does not explain anything, it only mentions that Puntland claims most of Sanaag except for El Afweyn district and parts of Erigavo district. It does not mention the town as a border, and the district boundary actually extends eastwards from El Afweyn. Gebagebo ( talk) 02:05, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
@ Freetrashbox: Like I said before, speculation is not allowed per WP:OR. I see a lot of speculation and no sources.
Your point is also irrelevant since the El Afweyn district extends another 18km east, which is a significant distance. And this is just per Somalia's administrative boundaries (and thus Puntland's). Per Somaliland's administrative boundaries the districts extends a lot further to the east. Fiqifuliye is 48km east of the district boundaries and Damala Xagarre is 65km, so both towns are irrelevant to the discussion to begin with.
The fact you consider El Afweyn a "border town" shows you really should do more research on this topic. I doubt you have enough knowledge about this topic to be editing on it. Gebagebo ( talk) 20:09, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
@ Freetrashbox: Again this solves nothing since the content in question is irrelevant. Gebagebo ( talk) 21:32, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
How is "Puntland doesn't claim El Afweyn" relevant to El Afweyn? You've failed to adequately answer the question. Gebagebo ( talk) 15:54, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
Per WP:NOCONSENSUS you cannot reinstate content that is under dispute.
So far you have not provided any evidence that this is relevant to the El Afweyn article in any way, instead providing me your own original analysis of the source at hand (which is not allowed on Wikipedia). Gebagebo ( talk) 14:52, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
You can't just unilaterally reinstate irrelevant content per WP:NOCONSENSUS. Your planned reinstating would be disruptive editing. Gebagebo ( talk) 01:56, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
Gebagebo, may I present my opinion? I see no reason to prevent Freetrashbox's edit. A foreign army's presence in a state is worthy of explanation no matter what. I do not see how you can reasonably justify it as 'irrelevant'. A city being claimed and occupied by different states is a natural part of history. Furthermore, your statement "whoever reads the article ... is very likely to know that" is a breach of WP:AUDIENCE. Thank you. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 12:23, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
@ AirshipJungleman29: I believe you misunderstood the issue. The issue is not the presence (I even improved the section mentioning it per WP:VERIFICATION link link), the issue is exactly how Puntland not claiming a district is relevant to the district capital. That would be more relevant in Sanaag, the region Puntland claims parts of.
The way Freetrashbox is going about it he's attempting to make it seem that Puntland has influence in a town it does not claim due to Puntland rebel forces being based there.
I'm willing to compromise on this matter but only if the language is neutral and there is no POV. Gebagebo ( talk) 12:48, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
Here's the thing: I can't find a reliable source that gives an explanation for why they ended up based in El Afweyn. The explanation Freetrashbox is trying to add is original analysis. Mudugonline, a source he cited mentions politicians as well as El Afweyn residents protesting their presence, that section translated says:
El-Afweyn residents and Somaliland politicians have been mounting pressure on the militia in recent days, with the exception of President
Dahir Riyale Kahin, those who are opposed to the presence of Puntland opposition militias have demanded that the militia leave their area.
This would imply that the Somaliland government was OK with this, however without a reliable source explicitly stating that it can't be added.
Again, the non-inclusion of El Afweyn District in Puntland's claim is not relevant to the article about El Afweyn town, unless you can convince me otherwise. Gebagebo ( talk) 14:46, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
@ AirshipJungleman29: Since you insist that the inclusion is indeed relevant, I'd like to propose a compromise. How about this:
That way context would be given using a neutral tone in accordance with WP:NPOV. Gebagebo ( talk) 00:16, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
@
AirshipJungleman29: With this example, the content concerning the fact that Puntland doesn't claim the town has been reworded and has been blended into the section to give it the relevancy that it requires. The sentence In July 2001, the government of Puntland enacted the "Provisional Constitution of the Republic of Puntland," declaring the Sanaag region, except for El Afwein and the northeastern part of Erigavo, to be its territory
by itself isn't relevant due to the wording, while "the miltia remained stationed in El Afwein, a town outside of Puntland's claimed jurisdiction"
however is, in addition to providing more context to the average reader per
WP:AUDIENCE.
I'm awaiting @ Freetrashbox:'s input. Gebagebo ( talk) 00:32, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
References
The territorial sovereignty of Puntland shall extend to: East Region of Bari, Nugal, Sool, South Togdher (Buhodle District), Mudug except the Districts of Hobyo and Haradhere and Sanag Region except the District of El-Afweyn and Northeast of Erigavo District
The territorial sovereignty of Puntland shall extend to: East Region of Bari, Nugal, Sool, South Togdher (Buhodle District), Mudug except the Districts of Hobyo and Haradhere and Sanag Region except the District of El-Afweyn and Northeast of Erigavo District
This article is rated Stub-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
population 21,000
El Afweyne is the second largest city after Erigavo. What other city could be bigger than it? Lasqory is 34,000 while El Afweyne is double! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.96.160.44 ( talk) 20:18, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Jacob300: Please explain the reason for this edit. It is notability that the specific place names are written in this type of document. Jama Ali Jama, who appears in this next section, was a politician on the Puntland government side when this document was created. It is clear that the actions of Jama Ali Jama were unjust even if fully accept Puntland's claim at the time. Without this explanation, the reader would not notice it.-- Freetrashbox ( talk) 21:01, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
Hi @ Freetrashbox:
Thank you for your message. I removed the sentence stating 'In July 2001, the government of Puntland enacted the "Provisional Constitution of the Republic of Puntland," declaring the Sanaag region, except for El Afwein and the northeastern part of Erigavo, to be its territory.' as it have no relevance to the article as per WP:RELEVANT.
Many thanks Jacob300 ( talk) 15:06, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
Hello @ Freetrashbox:,
I reverted your recent edit since it seems to be pushing a particular POV. I don't see how the non-inclusion of El Afweyn in Puntland's claim is relevant to the article (see WP:RELEVANT). Then is the fact that the subheading "Puntland influence" is implying that Puntland has influence and some sort of control of the town (which it does not claim), which is POV pushing.
This along with the fact that "In July 2001, the government of Puntland enacted the "Provisional Constitution of the Republic of Puntland" is simply wrong since Puntland is not a republic, but a federal member state of Somalia. Gebagebo ( talk) 18:25, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
What you have mentioned is nothing but original research. You have not explained at all how Puntland could possibly influence a town it doesn't claim. Again, I could use the same logic for Caare being based in Qardho. This is clearly POV editing, with the goal of making it seem that Puntland has influence in El Afweyn on the basis that a rebel faction was based near it.
I suggest you desist from any future POV edits like this as that is not accepted in Wikipedia. Gebagebo ( talk) 13:56, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
Again, I don't see how Puntland rebel forces being based in El Afweyn equals influence, especially when no source has stated that. You have once again not explained how exactly Puntland had influence over El Afweyn (a town the state doesn't claim) in 2003 through a rebel faction. It is POV in the sense that you're making it seem that Puntland has influence over said town.
Again, referring to the section as "Influence of the Puntland civil war" isn't feasible since the problem would still exist. You yourself states that you don't strongly disagree with replacing it with "Security", so keeping the section's name as security is probably the only option for now. Gebagebo ( talk) 12:07, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
@ Freetrashbox: The point about the Mexican Constitution is just an example. You have still not shown how the non-inclusion of a town should be added to the town's article. That is not relevant. Gebagebo ( talk) 22:40, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
@ Freetrashbox: Me arguing the non-inclusion of a region according to Puntland's constitution shouldn't be added to the article = political agenda is honestly the furthest stretch I've ever seen. You failed once again to explain how exactly this information is relevant to the El Afweyn article. My statement is very clear and concise. Gebagebo ( talk) 23:34, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
@ Freetrashbox: I also reworded the section a little bit to reflect the content of the sources cited. Gebagebo ( talk) 23:51, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
@ Freetrashbox: I have clarified in my newest edit that Dhuudo town (Dhuudo is not a region) is part of Puntland. I'm pretty sure no reader would magically jump to the "Security" section of the article and only read it instead of the rest of the article.
I'm also pretty sure that, given El Afweyn is such a niche topic for the average Wikipedia reader, that whoever reads the article is already familiar with the Puntland-Somaliland dispute and Somaliland-related topics and is very likely to know that El Afweyn isn't in Puntland. There is no need to add the non-inclusion of a town/district in Puntland's claim into the article itself, that is completely irrelevant. Gebagebo ( talk) 01:07, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
@ Freetrashbox: I highly doubt anyone would misunderstand El Afweyn to be part of Puntland, given that if we forget the niche nature of the article, the infobox, the lead and most of the content clearly describe the town as part of Somaliland. El Afweyn is also not a border town, I don't know where you're getting this information from.
The Transitional Constitution of Puntland regional government does not explain anything, it only mentions that Puntland claims most of Sanaag except for El Afweyn district and parts of Erigavo district. It does not mention the town as a border, and the district boundary actually extends eastwards from El Afweyn. Gebagebo ( talk) 02:05, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
@ Freetrashbox: Like I said before, speculation is not allowed per WP:OR. I see a lot of speculation and no sources.
Your point is also irrelevant since the El Afweyn district extends another 18km east, which is a significant distance. And this is just per Somalia's administrative boundaries (and thus Puntland's). Per Somaliland's administrative boundaries the districts extends a lot further to the east. Fiqifuliye is 48km east of the district boundaries and Damala Xagarre is 65km, so both towns are irrelevant to the discussion to begin with.
The fact you consider El Afweyn a "border town" shows you really should do more research on this topic. I doubt you have enough knowledge about this topic to be editing on it. Gebagebo ( talk) 20:09, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
@ Freetrashbox: Again this solves nothing since the content in question is irrelevant. Gebagebo ( talk) 21:32, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
How is "Puntland doesn't claim El Afweyn" relevant to El Afweyn? You've failed to adequately answer the question. Gebagebo ( talk) 15:54, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
Per WP:NOCONSENSUS you cannot reinstate content that is under dispute.
So far you have not provided any evidence that this is relevant to the El Afweyn article in any way, instead providing me your own original analysis of the source at hand (which is not allowed on Wikipedia). Gebagebo ( talk) 14:52, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
You can't just unilaterally reinstate irrelevant content per WP:NOCONSENSUS. Your planned reinstating would be disruptive editing. Gebagebo ( talk) 01:56, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
Gebagebo, may I present my opinion? I see no reason to prevent Freetrashbox's edit. A foreign army's presence in a state is worthy of explanation no matter what. I do not see how you can reasonably justify it as 'irrelevant'. A city being claimed and occupied by different states is a natural part of history. Furthermore, your statement "whoever reads the article ... is very likely to know that" is a breach of WP:AUDIENCE. Thank you. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 12:23, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
@ AirshipJungleman29: I believe you misunderstood the issue. The issue is not the presence (I even improved the section mentioning it per WP:VERIFICATION link link), the issue is exactly how Puntland not claiming a district is relevant to the district capital. That would be more relevant in Sanaag, the region Puntland claims parts of.
The way Freetrashbox is going about it he's attempting to make it seem that Puntland has influence in a town it does not claim due to Puntland rebel forces being based there.
I'm willing to compromise on this matter but only if the language is neutral and there is no POV. Gebagebo ( talk) 12:48, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
Here's the thing: I can't find a reliable source that gives an explanation for why they ended up based in El Afweyn. The explanation Freetrashbox is trying to add is original analysis. Mudugonline, a source he cited mentions politicians as well as El Afweyn residents protesting their presence, that section translated says:
El-Afweyn residents and Somaliland politicians have been mounting pressure on the militia in recent days, with the exception of President
Dahir Riyale Kahin, those who are opposed to the presence of Puntland opposition militias have demanded that the militia leave their area.
This would imply that the Somaliland government was OK with this, however without a reliable source explicitly stating that it can't be added.
Again, the non-inclusion of El Afweyn District in Puntland's claim is not relevant to the article about El Afweyn town, unless you can convince me otherwise. Gebagebo ( talk) 14:46, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
@ AirshipJungleman29: Since you insist that the inclusion is indeed relevant, I'd like to propose a compromise. How about this:
That way context would be given using a neutral tone in accordance with WP:NPOV. Gebagebo ( talk) 00:16, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
@
AirshipJungleman29: With this example, the content concerning the fact that Puntland doesn't claim the town has been reworded and has been blended into the section to give it the relevancy that it requires. The sentence In July 2001, the government of Puntland enacted the "Provisional Constitution of the Republic of Puntland," declaring the Sanaag region, except for El Afwein and the northeastern part of Erigavo, to be its territory
by itself isn't relevant due to the wording, while "the miltia remained stationed in El Afwein, a town outside of Puntland's claimed jurisdiction"
however is, in addition to providing more context to the average reader per
WP:AUDIENCE.
I'm awaiting @ Freetrashbox:'s input. Gebagebo ( talk) 00:32, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
References
The territorial sovereignty of Puntland shall extend to: East Region of Bari, Nugal, Sool, South Togdher (Buhodle District), Mudug except the Districts of Hobyo and Haradhere and Sanag Region except the District of El-Afweyn and Northeast of Erigavo District
The territorial sovereignty of Puntland shall extend to: East Region of Bari, Nugal, Sool, South Togdher (Buhodle District), Mudug except the Districts of Hobyo and Haradhere and Sanag Region except the District of El-Afweyn and Northeast of Erigavo District