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In the beginning of this article, it says "A large minority of Egyptians belong to the Coptic Orthodox Church." When I hear the phrase "large minority," I think 30-40%, but the number cited later on in the page, and on the CIA factbook, is 9%. It would be better to say the specific numbers at the beginning, or at the very least, rephrase. Perhaps "the vast majority of the remainder belong..." or something similar.
Girlfriend of Merv ( talk) 02:37, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
incidentially, the blanket reverts include the claim that common religions of the Egyptian people are "Bahá'í Faith, Judaism, Atheism", and insist on treating Ancient Egyptian and Coptic designations with priority. Is there any evidence that there are significant adherents of Bahá'í Faith, Judaism or Atheism (according to the CIA factbook, these should figure below 0.5% taken together), or that there are any native speakers of Ancient Egyptian or Coptic in Egypt (according to Ethnologue, languages spoken in Egypt are varieties of Arabic, followed by Domari, Nobiin and Kenuzi-Dongola). Maybe you have some better source? However, unless some source is cited ( WP:V) these reverts aren't arguable. I realize Coptic was widely spoken in Egypt 1500 years ago. So was Old High German in Germany. Yet if you look at Germans, the article does not begin "The German people (Proto-Germanic: *Þeuda, Old High German: Diutisci, German: Deutsche)". Ask yourselves why. We have articles on current ethnic groups and nationalities, and we have articles on " ancient peoples. Yes, ancient peoples should be mentioned in "history" sections of their descendant populations. Thus, Germanic tribes certainly are mentioned under the "origins" sections at Germans, and there is even a disambiguation notice to Germanic tribes for people who might be looking for that article under "Germans". The Ancient Egyptians should be treated exactly the same with respect to this article. -- dab (𒁳) 07:27, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
How about a compromise? I'll consent to having the Ancient Egyptian name for Egyptians in the introduction, but I feel that having Ancient Egyptian in the languages section of the infobox is highly misleading, akin to having Latin in the languages section of the Italians infobox. Coptic, as the last stage of the language, should of course remain.-- Yolgnu ( talk) 06:15, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
"This can only mean that the Wikipedia article about the French people is lacking" "Galli" doesn't refer to all French though, it refers to Gauls. Saimdusan Talk| Contribs 08:59, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
According to the article, Egypt was occupied since ancient times by foreign powers, until 1922 when the Egyptians achieved independence. But what makes the Fatimids, for example, occupiers and not Egyptians?-- Yolgnu ( talk) 10:39, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
I have removed this sentence: "It is also a matter of dispute whether the Egyptian population of the Balkan states are ethnic Egyptians." It seems that Balkan "Egyptians" are actually Roma people who acquired the name "Egyptian" due to a false assumption of the origin of Roma (cf. "Gypsy", from the word "Egyptian").-- Yolgnu ( talk) 11:05, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
I've protected the article indefinitely until the edit war is over (request unprotection here). I'd recommend requesting for a mediator here. · AndonicO Engage. 13:28, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Many Egyptians today feel that Egyptian and Arab identities are inextricably linked, and emphasize the central role that Egypt plays in the Arab world. The Muslim Brotherhood now has a broad following, particularly among the lower-middle class urban population.
This is yet another insulting piece of Arab propaganda. Many reliable sources assert that most Egyptians believe that they are Egyptian and Egyptian only, i.e. not Arab.
If there is no comment about this in a week, I will remove the highly insulting statements.
David873 (
talk)
02:53, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Actually, there seems to be more to the story. See below for details. David873 ( talk) 12:05, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
FunkMonk has alleged that Zerida has been making highly biased edits at Egyptians in order to promote a particular point of view, namely that Egyptians are not Arabs. Clearly, this allegation is extremely serious and needs to be dealt with immediately. It is possible that Zerida has managed to fool many editors in the process, given the user's sockpuppetry record. See Talk:Arab for the original allegation. David873 ( talk) 12:05, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
See WP:TRUTH. The article doesn't need to decide whether Egyptians "are" Arabs. It needs to document the dispute. But it needs to stop implying the Egyptians "are" the Ancient Egyptians, which is not the topic of any dispute. dab (𒁳) 15:04, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
To what extent are they "Arabized"??? Um, they are native speakers of an Arabic dialect? Like, 100% of them? Or how many Coptic speakers do you know of? I know there were rumours that there remain three families of Coptic speakers in the desert somewhere. So maybe 99.9999%? "ridiculous" indeed. This is the article about the "Masri" speaking group. For the Copts, we have the Copts article. Obviously, there can be a section summarizing Copts here. Ancient Egypt has nothing to do with it. The "identity" section of course should cover the two-fold division of Egyptian ethnic nationalism, the "Pharaonist" opposition to Nasser's Pan-Arabism etc. That's 20th century history, and doesn't justify spamming this article with Bronze Age history. As for "be bold", are you kidding? I tried to fix the article back in May, which resulted in Zerida coming after me with his sock army, and his buddies making a lame attempt at discrediting my integrity, etc., the boring old pov-warrior tactics the Hindu nationalists have gone through a couple of years ago. I am here to write encyclopedic content, not to babysit political zealots. -- dab (𒁳) 08:41, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Click on Arabization :"a growing cultural influence on a non-Arab area that gradually changes into one that speaks Arabic and/or incorporates Arab culture". If you were an Arab, you couldn't be Arabized because you were already Arab to begin with. If you speak Arabic natively but do not consider yourself an ethnic Arab, you have obviously been Arabized. What is there to discuss here? If you spoke Turkish, you'd have been Turkified, if you spoke Persian, you'd have been Persianized, it's as simple as that. Ffs, Egypt is even officially known as the "Arab Republic of Egypt". If any country has ever been Arabized, it's Egypt. This has zilch to do with intermarriage. A population is Arabized if it adopts the Arabic language and/or culture. This can happen by intermarriage, but just as well by superstrate influence. dab (𒁳) 16:23, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
FunkMonk, I have explained it to you how many times now? You still feel like mindlessly labelling folks as "Arab"? Feel good about wasting other people's time? Well, if you think that I'm going to fall for that, think again. Your "pharonist" claims look quite baseless as your only argument on that is Zerida's sock puppetry. May be that would work with Zerida, but to me, that is simply a stale argument, as I am not a part of that. That repeated claim is taking us nowhere; there's no point in being redundant.
If you wish to label us as "Arab", then yes, you do need evidence for that ( WP:RS). " Assimilation" is not interchangeable with "Arabization", nor does it simply "change" the ethnicity. You claimed earlier on that it is about self identification. Here, it's as if you are saying that they are all Arab regardless. Either way, I am not convinced, and quite frankly, this discussion will do nothing but lose my interest. ~ Troy ( talk) 23:28, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
The following crucial addition by User:Lanternix as shown here [2] (which included references) was recently reverted in the name of removing edits made by "convicted" sockpuppeteer Zerida. Now, User:Lanternix has not been suspected of anything serious as far as I am aware and I believe that the edit I have just mentioned addresses an issue that most editors would rather avoid. The key paragraph is reproduced below.
Egyptians were forced into adopting the Arabic language, and many Arab rulers sought to implement this by punishing those who still spoke Egyptian by cutting their tongues [1] [2] This came at the expense of the native Egyptian language (called Coptic language by the Arabs), which became mostly extinct by the 18th century, although it is spoken today as a native tongue by a few hundred Egyptians.
Of course, someone will have a problem with it. In this case, we will hear about it. David873 ( talk) 12:16, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
our sources for this are islamreview.com and copts.net? Give me a break. How difficult can it be to understand WP:RS? The burden of providing actual references (academic ones!) lies with those who would like to parade around the tongue-cutting stories. Please. You want to discuss the persecution of the Copts? Cite actual academic literature on the topic. "Evil Muslim rulers cut out Copts tongues!! (see copts.net)" isn't the sort of content we are looking for at Wikipedia. -- dab (𒁳) 08:56, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
no you are not. You are bound to WP:TALK like everyone else. Now stop waving around empty "ad hominem" accusations. I am not criticising you "ad hominem". You may bring up that complaint once you catch me making comments about your mother, your penis size or your intelligence. -- dab (𒁳) 17:15, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Obviously there is some controversy or disagreement over the Coptic vs Arabic identity, so why can't this be represented in the article? The ancient history of Egypt can just be a "see also" link, the opening can say "the Egyptian people are a nationality, either seen as Arab-majority (sources), or as ethnic Egyptian-majority. Saimdusan Talk| Contribs 06:23, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
"why can't this be represented in the article"? I am sorry, have you looked at the article? The "Identity" section? Yes, the "history" section needlessly inflates the article to above 100k. It's an ok overview of the History of Egypt, but virtually nothing in it concerns the "history of the Egyptian people" as opposed to the generic " History of Egypt". This bloated section should be cut to a bare minimum to allow development of the content that actually belongs in this article. -- dab (𒁳) 08:04, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Ok, I separated the discussion of the linguistic history into a "Languages" section and edited it for encyclopedicity. The sources given for the persecution and decline of Coptic are unacceptable. I recognize for a fact that Coptic was marginalized from the 8th century, and actively persecuted under the Mamluks, but even so I have to insist on WP:RS. Diasporic Coptic websites with an axe to grind have no place as "references" on Wikipedia. I have left the references in place, tagging them with {{ verify credibility}}, as a show of good faith, but this needs to be fixed asap. -- dab (𒁳) 08:29, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Sources for the Coptic revival:
can those editors wishing to document Coptic persecution and revival please look after this? Please pull your own weight. When your "sources" are criticized as unacademic, the burden is on you to produce something better. If you want to argue that "copts.net" or "islamreview.com" qualify as WP:RS, please take it to WP:RSN and see what happens. Fwiiw, the situation of the Copts in the abstract to the third source linked above reads
-- dab (𒁳) 09:40, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Watch out for IPs and new accounts pushing the Pharaonist POV, last three were sock-puppets of Zerida, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Suspected_sock_puppets/Zerida FunkMonk ( talk) 11:40, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
I suppose we'll count Lanternix ( talk · contribs) as part of this? At least this editor isn't even trying to pretend they have any sort of case or rationale behind the revert warring. -- dab (𒁳) 05:05, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
um, what "garbage"? I have fixed certain issues I tagged back in May (tags were removed without comment by Zerida and socks). I do not care who you are at all, but you are seamlessly continuing Zerida's edit-war, after anonymous canvassing to your talkpage. You are undoing a complex edit without stating what you are objecting to. This includes restoration of completely unsourced material, such as Bahá'í and Judaism being common denominations of Egyptians. I consider this vandalism in the narrow sense of "deliberate attempt to compromise the integrity of Wikipedia", and as such rollbackable. If you want to justify your actions as a bona fide dispute, make an attempt to cite sources or raise actual concerns. You are not speaking for Ghaly or Troy, who are actually contributing constructively to this article in spite of their personal biases, and I do expect them to join me in reverting both sock and meatpuppetry. -- dab (𒁳) 08:34, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
"The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged should be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation. [3] When content in Wikipedia requires direct substantiation, the established convention is to provide an inline citation to the supporting references. The rationale is that this provides the most direct means to verify whether the content is consistent with the references."
In Britain a person can describe their ethnic origin as either British or Welsh, British or Scottish , British or English .
I would like you to explain what you mean by denying that Egyptians are not an Ethnic group and please without intimidation. Ghaly ( talk) 09:03, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Regarding your logic in conversation , I am not convinced that the way you present your argument is either acceptable or compliant with rules of discussion. Ghaly ( talk) 18:45, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Troy is correct in stating that there often is the "dual" meaning of ethnicity and nationality we see here. Thus, "Germans" may refer both to an ethnic group and to citizenship. On one end of the scale, we have groups like "US Americans" (nationality only, no ethnic group) and, say, "Kurds" on the other (ethnicity only, not a nationality). "Egyptians" like many others fall somewhere in between. This is not a problem. Just describe how the group is being described in various sources. These sorces may be in contradiction with one another, that's perfectly normal. Wikipedia doesn't discuss "the Truth", it documents the range of opinions (within WP:DUE). Just cite your sources, and there will be no need for dispute here. There are lots of sources that treat the Egyptians as an Arab group, and we will cite the opinion, but obviously without implying they are "correct". We will of course also cite the opposing opinion that sees the Egyptians as distinct from Arabs. We will not try to decide who is "right" in this. As far as I can see, FunkMonk has merely reverted Zerida sock edits [6]. This is completely uncontroversial, since Zerida is a banned troll and has no business editing Wikipeda. All of his edits, regardless of content, are to be reverted on sight. This should include canvassing and calls to edit-warring like here. -- dab (𒁳) 08:42, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
I put a referrence by error then I corrected it with another three credible referrences , yet just because you don't agree with them you think they should be deleted , Please try to explain your point of view about that .
The consensus you mentioned , do you mean what you said that you are happy with an ethnicity that has been forced on your ancestors , to tell you the truth I am a little pit lost here , what consensus exactley and about what , also your comments like No such thing as Masri in English, what do you mean by this, this discussion that you started and if it wasn't for your edits things would have not developed to where we are, .
As for your logic in discussion, attitude towards other editors and your way of trying to put forward your POV, there would be no problem there if you are compliant with rules of discussion. Ghaly ( talk) 09:57, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
As for the consensus I can not find it, please let me know what consensus has been reached and where exactly I can find it on the talk page.
To
dab and
FunkMonk please don't insult me , twisting my words is not going to get us any where.
Regarding the on-going editing war , I have no interest in sharing in it. Ghaly ( talk) 13:32, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
But the war is not over, and your vandalism WILL be reverted one day. You are at luck that my real life does not currently permit me to indulge in a virtual one. -- Lanternix ( talk) 09:17, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
Troy, if this is about NPOV, you should explain which bit is under dispute, and propose an improved phrasing. If you do that, we have a discussion. If you do not, what can I say, there is no dispute. I hate to repeat myself, but why do you keep ignoring this very simple point? Lanternix hasn't shown he is aware of what "NPOV" actually says, let alone explained what he thinks is the problem. You don't want to take part "in this"? Fine. Then it's settled, because neither do I, nor, by all appearances, does Lanternix. A "dispute" on Wikipedia isn't just people coming to talkpages and calling other people names. That would be Usenet. If nobody has any coherent point to make, what is this even about? Can you now please either discuss the article, or else stop saying you do not want to discuss it. dab (𒁳) 08:17, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Troy, I am sorry, but you are wrong. The mere act of mechanically reverting edits does not show that there is an actual content dispute. There is a wide margin separating the outright "vandal" from Wikipedians in good standing disagreeing over something. Within this margin, you find a colourful crew of trolls, cranks, zealots, cholerics etc. who may believe they are "right" because they haven't read or understood what Wikipedia is trying to do. I strongly object to your equating Laternix' behaviour to mine. I have patiently pointed out that Laternix is out of line, and why. I am aware and fully endorse project policy. I am willing to collaborate with anyone who can say the same. I will not, and am not required to, engage in "disputes" with people who cannot. Now, I would be happy to collaborate with you in the further development of this article, but for this you should please, please stop musing over "vandalism" and begin raising some points on the topic of Egyptians. Otherwise I really do not see why you keep editing a page which right at the top has the message This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Egyptians article., in boldface. dab (𒁳) 14:29, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
At present, the "history" section is a WP:CFORK of History of Egypt. Is anyone interested in working on this? Otherwise, I suggest we simply reduce it to a brief WP:SS summary for the time being, to be expanded into an actual history of the ethnicity in the future. Solving this is the next step forward with this article because the entire article suffers from the bloat in the historical section inflating it to >100k. Once we've cut down the history section to a sensible size, we may begin balancing section contents with a view to making this a "good" article. -- dab (𒁳) 08:51, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
It's ok, I'll just reduce it to WP:SS again. Since Lanternix + socks doesn't even pretend to be participating in a debate, we may need to call in some uninvolved admin to clamp down on the disruption so the article can proceed without all this vitriolic background noise. -- dab (𒁳) 09:55, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
well, I am having a deja vu here. Lanternix is showing exactly the same irrational opposition to finally getting ahead with the article as formerly seen by Zerida and sock army. I must conclude that Lanternix is likely another Zerida sock. Now they're throwing around vitriol about alleged "ad hominem" attacks, anything to avoid discussing the actual issue. FunkMonk, you should not feed the troll. If they persist, let them be banned over 3RR, problem solved. I do not see any bona fide concerns raised here. My recent edits simply addressed some long-standing issues, tagged for months now. I won't second-guess Lanternix' motives, but it seems clear that they want to prevent the development of an encyclopedia article on the Egyptians. This falls under WP:DISRUPT. dab (𒁳) 16:50, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
I think this article should be moved to Egyptian people, that's the norm for articles about modern populations here on Wikipedia. FunkMonk ( talk) 13:30, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
I am not sure I follow you. French is a disambiguation because it can mean "the French" ( French people) or "in French" ( French language), or just "of France" in general. " Egyptians" (the plural) isn't prone to any such ambiguity, nor is " Egyptian", because the people are not known as "the Egyptian" as in "the French", "the Swiss" etc. There is Egyptians (disambiguation) because there is a very minor group known as "Egyptians" in the Balkans, Egyptians (Balkans). If you argue we should disambiguate the modern Egyptians from the Ancient Egyptians, you will note that (a) Ancient Egyptians is just a redirect, and (b) we could just link to Ancient Egyptians from the top of this page if necessary. If we really need an Ancient Egyptians article separate from Ancient Egypt (say as in Gauls and Gaul), somebody would need to sit down and write it first. I am really not quite sure whether I catch your meaning, since this is all perfectly obvious. We create disambiguation pages whenever they are needed, that's purely on a case-by-case basis. -- dab (𒁳) 14:28, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
The Arab World article appears to be suffering from a slow-moving revert war over the question of if Egyptians are Arabs. Since I do not have any particular knowledge of the subject, I cannot really help (I only have the article on my watchlist in order to keep an eye out for socks of a particular banned editor). However I noticed that the Identity section of this article appears to be well sourced and cited with over a dozen references. If any of the editors knowledgeable on this subject could lend a hand on this topic at the Arab World article, I would be very grateful. Thanks, Kralizec! ( talk) 12:48, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
look, this question is a matter of opinion. We are not looking towards "deciding" it, per WP:TRUTH, we just report on the various opinions. Anyone unable to understand this, and trying to impose a statement of how it "really is" is in violation of core policy and consequently has no business editing here and should be entering the warn-block cycle. Thanks, -- dab (𒁳) 12:36, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
I do not have any personal views on this. Putty violated WP:SOAP by airing his personal views, and I asked him to stop it, that's all. If I failed to make myself clear, I am sorry. You don't have to take my word for anything, just go and read WP:NOT, especially WP:TRUTH, and then kindly respect the rules. -- dab (𒁳) 19:53, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
sheesh, this is simply a matter of opinion, or of definition. See WP:TRUTH. Egypt is a founding member and seat of headquarters of the Arab League, so we must admit that the Arab character of Egypt does have some notability. Others disagree. We report whatever is notable, not what's "true". -- dab (𒁳) 10:22, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
do you have a reading problem? You were pointed to WP:TRUTH. You can read there in plain English that Wikipedai is about notability, not truth. If there is a notable opinion linking the Zambians to the Chinese, Wikpedia will report it. Except that it isn't notable but some random nonsense you made up. Nobody here is interested whether Egyptians are "really" Arabs. All we are interested in is, is the idea that "Egyptians are Arabs" at all notable or held by many people? The answer is yes. Now if you cannot or do not want to follow an argument as simple as this one, I do not think there is any point in your "contributing" here. -- dab (𒁳) 11:21, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
First of all, English Wikipedia to me became a joke when it comes to talk about Arabs or Islam. You should add a new template here on the top of any Arabs or Muslims article "This is an article about Mars and you must not think that what mentioned here can be compared to any people or religion on Earth"
First joke: "The national identity of Egyptians as it developed in the 19th to 20th centuries consists of overlapping or conflicting ideologies, a Muslim identity prone to Arab nationalism on one hand, versus a secular nationalism that focuses primarily on Ancient Egypt."
Muslim Identity prone to Arab nationalism? Do you really have such ignorance about the historical disputes between Arabism and Muslim movements? Don't you know who put the basis of Arabism? One of the main principles of Arabism is a complete secularism and Arabism can't be linked to religion at any circumstance.
Another amazing joke in this article that the "nationalists" who are actually fascists are not secular.
Second joke: "It was not until the Nasser era more than a decade later that Arab nationalism"
That actually means that Arab nationalism did rise from nothing! And it doesn't have any roots. Like Mamluk states or Mohamed Ali era. What are you talking about man? Who are these Mamluks or Ayyubids? They don't exist!
Third joke (The Top joke of jokes): "Many Egyptians today feel that Egyptian and Arab identities are inextricably linked, and emphasize the central role that Egypt plays in the Arab world. The Muslim Brotherhood now has a broad following, particularly among the lower-middle class urban population"
How do you count guys? Can 1+1=20??? Doesn't any one here know the disputes between Islamism and Arabism? These two things can't be together as ideology! The doctorine of Muslim Brotherhood is Anti-Arabist. You should read more about the aftermath inside Egypt of Six days war perhaops you get persuaded.
Fourth joke: "'We are not Arabs, we are Egyptians,' said tour guide Shayma, who is a devout Muslim."
(...) Perhaps I was that Shaymaa without my knowledge :d
I am sorry that English wikipedia became a place for such fascist minority to spread their evil ideology and their misleading ideas about Egyptians "Perhaps they don't consider me Egyptian??"
Egyptian lion ( talk) 00:20, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
I remove these exceptional claims until their supporters get reliable references Egyptian lion ( talk) 09:25, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
I wouldn't dream of treating copts.com etc. as a reliable source. The existence of the dispute is properly referenced to academic literature. I don't know how many percent of Egyptians are "Pharaonists", I really have no idea, you show me a reference on that please. See especially the Jankowski (1990) quote. So far, we know that Pharaonism was widespread and notable in the 19th century and up to the 1920s. Pan-Arabism became big in the 1930s. I have no idea which ideology is predominant today, and you are perfectly free to add further material establishing this. -- dab (𒁳) 13:50, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
Is anyone here aware of the latest studies by Cruciani? Egyptians are really not related to North African Berbers. IN genetics The Paternal "Berber marker" now known as M81 shows a frequency in Egypt under 5%. Egyptians on the other hand DO have large amounts of M78. There are many downstream mutations of Marker M78 noted in many of the Newer studies regarding North East African Genetics. Egyptians are PRIMARY M78 (E1b1b1a) while Berbers are M81. Both M81 and M78 are mutations from Ethiopian Marker M35. Previous studies had grouped M78, M81, M35 and other "E Haplotypes" all together giving the impression that they were the same family. The article could be GREATLY improved with the contribution of some modern genetic studies found in the following wiki article.
Main points from the Wikipedia article below. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E3b
Undifferentiated E-V12* lineages (not E-V12 or E-M224, so therefore named "E-V12*") are found at especially high levels (44.3%) in Southern Egyptians, but also scattered widely in small amounts in both Northern Africa and Europe, but with very little sign in Western Asia, apart from Turkey[18]. These E-V12* lineages were formerly included (along with many E-V22* lineages[27]) in Cruciani et al.'s original (2004) "delta cluster", which he had defined using DYS profiles. With the discovery of the defining SNP, Cruciani et al. (2007) reported that V-12* was found in its highest concentrations in Egypt, especially Southern Egypt. Hassan et al. (2008) report a significant presence of E-V12* in neighboring Sudan, including 5/6 Nubians, and 5/5 Copts. E-V12* made up approximately 20% of the Sudanese E-M78. They propose that the E-V12 and E-V22 sub-clades of E1b1b1a (E-M78) might have been brought to Sudan from their place of origin in North Africa after the progressive desertification of the Sahara around 6,000–8,000 years ago. Sudden climate change might have forced several Neolithic cultures/people to migrate northward to the Mediterranean and southward to the Sahel and the Nile Valley. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
24.105.137.28 (
talk)
22:22, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
Why did that happen? This page hasn't become too long yet... Saimdusan Talk| Contribs 01:00, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
Restored comment by an Egyptian whose opinion was suppressed:
this article is bull shit sorry for my language but it is full of fakes and wrong informations this is really stupid y go on this? GEEKS!! ho said that arabic had been forced on egyptians?!!! and from where did you get that caliphs cut the tonges of egyptians who was using coptic language?!!!and who is considering egyptian arabic as a separate language and what is the difference between massryin and misrion?!!! both of them are used in egyptian life like alot of arabic (fosha) used in the egyptian daily life its not that different and by the way we are arabs and we are proud of being arabs thats our identity now even if it had been forced on us long time ago which by the way a big mistake but now all of egyptians proud of their arab identity [8]
There have been several such comments in the past by angry Egyptians who don't recognise the stuff in this article, and all such comments have been removed to hide this fact. FunkMonk ( talk) 11:55, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
There is a clear systematic effort to silence any voice trying to shed some lights on the fact that Egyptians and Arabs are not one and the same, despite all logic and evidence presented. Typical Arabist arrogance and bullying. They endeavour to abolish any identity and erase any memory of true Egyptian culture. They know they can not argue with the facts so they just dismiss your argument and call for it to be silenced. Disgusting! —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Mizraim0 (
talk •
contribs)
16:09, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
In the beginning of this article, it says "A large minority of Egyptians belong to the Coptic Orthodox Church." When I hear the phrase "large minority," I think 30-40%, but the number cited later on in the page, and on the CIA factbook, is 9%. It would be better to say the specific numbers at the beginning, or at the very least, rephrase. Perhaps "the vast majority of the remainder belong..." or something similar.
Girlfriend of Merv ( talk) 02:37, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
incidentially, the blanket reverts include the claim that common religions of the Egyptian people are "Bahá'í Faith, Judaism, Atheism", and insist on treating Ancient Egyptian and Coptic designations with priority. Is there any evidence that there are significant adherents of Bahá'í Faith, Judaism or Atheism (according to the CIA factbook, these should figure below 0.5% taken together), or that there are any native speakers of Ancient Egyptian or Coptic in Egypt (according to Ethnologue, languages spoken in Egypt are varieties of Arabic, followed by Domari, Nobiin and Kenuzi-Dongola). Maybe you have some better source? However, unless some source is cited ( WP:V) these reverts aren't arguable. I realize Coptic was widely spoken in Egypt 1500 years ago. So was Old High German in Germany. Yet if you look at Germans, the article does not begin "The German people (Proto-Germanic: *Þeuda, Old High German: Diutisci, German: Deutsche)". Ask yourselves why. We have articles on current ethnic groups and nationalities, and we have articles on " ancient peoples. Yes, ancient peoples should be mentioned in "history" sections of their descendant populations. Thus, Germanic tribes certainly are mentioned under the "origins" sections at Germans, and there is even a disambiguation notice to Germanic tribes for people who might be looking for that article under "Germans". The Ancient Egyptians should be treated exactly the same with respect to this article. -- dab (𒁳) 07:27, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
How about a compromise? I'll consent to having the Ancient Egyptian name for Egyptians in the introduction, but I feel that having Ancient Egyptian in the languages section of the infobox is highly misleading, akin to having Latin in the languages section of the Italians infobox. Coptic, as the last stage of the language, should of course remain.-- Yolgnu ( talk) 06:15, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
"This can only mean that the Wikipedia article about the French people is lacking" "Galli" doesn't refer to all French though, it refers to Gauls. Saimdusan Talk| Contribs 08:59, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
According to the article, Egypt was occupied since ancient times by foreign powers, until 1922 when the Egyptians achieved independence. But what makes the Fatimids, for example, occupiers and not Egyptians?-- Yolgnu ( talk) 10:39, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
I have removed this sentence: "It is also a matter of dispute whether the Egyptian population of the Balkan states are ethnic Egyptians." It seems that Balkan "Egyptians" are actually Roma people who acquired the name "Egyptian" due to a false assumption of the origin of Roma (cf. "Gypsy", from the word "Egyptian").-- Yolgnu ( talk) 11:05, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
I've protected the article indefinitely until the edit war is over (request unprotection here). I'd recommend requesting for a mediator here. · AndonicO Engage. 13:28, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Many Egyptians today feel that Egyptian and Arab identities are inextricably linked, and emphasize the central role that Egypt plays in the Arab world. The Muslim Brotherhood now has a broad following, particularly among the lower-middle class urban population.
This is yet another insulting piece of Arab propaganda. Many reliable sources assert that most Egyptians believe that they are Egyptian and Egyptian only, i.e. not Arab.
If there is no comment about this in a week, I will remove the highly insulting statements.
David873 (
talk)
02:53, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Actually, there seems to be more to the story. See below for details. David873 ( talk) 12:05, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
FunkMonk has alleged that Zerida has been making highly biased edits at Egyptians in order to promote a particular point of view, namely that Egyptians are not Arabs. Clearly, this allegation is extremely serious and needs to be dealt with immediately. It is possible that Zerida has managed to fool many editors in the process, given the user's sockpuppetry record. See Talk:Arab for the original allegation. David873 ( talk) 12:05, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
See WP:TRUTH. The article doesn't need to decide whether Egyptians "are" Arabs. It needs to document the dispute. But it needs to stop implying the Egyptians "are" the Ancient Egyptians, which is not the topic of any dispute. dab (𒁳) 15:04, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
To what extent are they "Arabized"??? Um, they are native speakers of an Arabic dialect? Like, 100% of them? Or how many Coptic speakers do you know of? I know there were rumours that there remain three families of Coptic speakers in the desert somewhere. So maybe 99.9999%? "ridiculous" indeed. This is the article about the "Masri" speaking group. For the Copts, we have the Copts article. Obviously, there can be a section summarizing Copts here. Ancient Egypt has nothing to do with it. The "identity" section of course should cover the two-fold division of Egyptian ethnic nationalism, the "Pharaonist" opposition to Nasser's Pan-Arabism etc. That's 20th century history, and doesn't justify spamming this article with Bronze Age history. As for "be bold", are you kidding? I tried to fix the article back in May, which resulted in Zerida coming after me with his sock army, and his buddies making a lame attempt at discrediting my integrity, etc., the boring old pov-warrior tactics the Hindu nationalists have gone through a couple of years ago. I am here to write encyclopedic content, not to babysit political zealots. -- dab (𒁳) 08:41, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Click on Arabization :"a growing cultural influence on a non-Arab area that gradually changes into one that speaks Arabic and/or incorporates Arab culture". If you were an Arab, you couldn't be Arabized because you were already Arab to begin with. If you speak Arabic natively but do not consider yourself an ethnic Arab, you have obviously been Arabized. What is there to discuss here? If you spoke Turkish, you'd have been Turkified, if you spoke Persian, you'd have been Persianized, it's as simple as that. Ffs, Egypt is even officially known as the "Arab Republic of Egypt". If any country has ever been Arabized, it's Egypt. This has zilch to do with intermarriage. A population is Arabized if it adopts the Arabic language and/or culture. This can happen by intermarriage, but just as well by superstrate influence. dab (𒁳) 16:23, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
FunkMonk, I have explained it to you how many times now? You still feel like mindlessly labelling folks as "Arab"? Feel good about wasting other people's time? Well, if you think that I'm going to fall for that, think again. Your "pharonist" claims look quite baseless as your only argument on that is Zerida's sock puppetry. May be that would work with Zerida, but to me, that is simply a stale argument, as I am not a part of that. That repeated claim is taking us nowhere; there's no point in being redundant.
If you wish to label us as "Arab", then yes, you do need evidence for that ( WP:RS). " Assimilation" is not interchangeable with "Arabization", nor does it simply "change" the ethnicity. You claimed earlier on that it is about self identification. Here, it's as if you are saying that they are all Arab regardless. Either way, I am not convinced, and quite frankly, this discussion will do nothing but lose my interest. ~ Troy ( talk) 23:28, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
The following crucial addition by User:Lanternix as shown here [2] (which included references) was recently reverted in the name of removing edits made by "convicted" sockpuppeteer Zerida. Now, User:Lanternix has not been suspected of anything serious as far as I am aware and I believe that the edit I have just mentioned addresses an issue that most editors would rather avoid. The key paragraph is reproduced below.
Egyptians were forced into adopting the Arabic language, and many Arab rulers sought to implement this by punishing those who still spoke Egyptian by cutting their tongues [1] [2] This came at the expense of the native Egyptian language (called Coptic language by the Arabs), which became mostly extinct by the 18th century, although it is spoken today as a native tongue by a few hundred Egyptians.
Of course, someone will have a problem with it. In this case, we will hear about it. David873 ( talk) 12:16, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
our sources for this are islamreview.com and copts.net? Give me a break. How difficult can it be to understand WP:RS? The burden of providing actual references (academic ones!) lies with those who would like to parade around the tongue-cutting stories. Please. You want to discuss the persecution of the Copts? Cite actual academic literature on the topic. "Evil Muslim rulers cut out Copts tongues!! (see copts.net)" isn't the sort of content we are looking for at Wikipedia. -- dab (𒁳) 08:56, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
no you are not. You are bound to WP:TALK like everyone else. Now stop waving around empty "ad hominem" accusations. I am not criticising you "ad hominem". You may bring up that complaint once you catch me making comments about your mother, your penis size or your intelligence. -- dab (𒁳) 17:15, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Obviously there is some controversy or disagreement over the Coptic vs Arabic identity, so why can't this be represented in the article? The ancient history of Egypt can just be a "see also" link, the opening can say "the Egyptian people are a nationality, either seen as Arab-majority (sources), or as ethnic Egyptian-majority. Saimdusan Talk| Contribs 06:23, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
"why can't this be represented in the article"? I am sorry, have you looked at the article? The "Identity" section? Yes, the "history" section needlessly inflates the article to above 100k. It's an ok overview of the History of Egypt, but virtually nothing in it concerns the "history of the Egyptian people" as opposed to the generic " History of Egypt". This bloated section should be cut to a bare minimum to allow development of the content that actually belongs in this article. -- dab (𒁳) 08:04, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Ok, I separated the discussion of the linguistic history into a "Languages" section and edited it for encyclopedicity. The sources given for the persecution and decline of Coptic are unacceptable. I recognize for a fact that Coptic was marginalized from the 8th century, and actively persecuted under the Mamluks, but even so I have to insist on WP:RS. Diasporic Coptic websites with an axe to grind have no place as "references" on Wikipedia. I have left the references in place, tagging them with {{ verify credibility}}, as a show of good faith, but this needs to be fixed asap. -- dab (𒁳) 08:29, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Sources for the Coptic revival:
can those editors wishing to document Coptic persecution and revival please look after this? Please pull your own weight. When your "sources" are criticized as unacademic, the burden is on you to produce something better. If you want to argue that "copts.net" or "islamreview.com" qualify as WP:RS, please take it to WP:RSN and see what happens. Fwiiw, the situation of the Copts in the abstract to the third source linked above reads
-- dab (𒁳) 09:40, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Watch out for IPs and new accounts pushing the Pharaonist POV, last three were sock-puppets of Zerida, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Suspected_sock_puppets/Zerida FunkMonk ( talk) 11:40, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
I suppose we'll count Lanternix ( talk · contribs) as part of this? At least this editor isn't even trying to pretend they have any sort of case or rationale behind the revert warring. -- dab (𒁳) 05:05, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
um, what "garbage"? I have fixed certain issues I tagged back in May (tags were removed without comment by Zerida and socks). I do not care who you are at all, but you are seamlessly continuing Zerida's edit-war, after anonymous canvassing to your talkpage. You are undoing a complex edit without stating what you are objecting to. This includes restoration of completely unsourced material, such as Bahá'í and Judaism being common denominations of Egyptians. I consider this vandalism in the narrow sense of "deliberate attempt to compromise the integrity of Wikipedia", and as such rollbackable. If you want to justify your actions as a bona fide dispute, make an attempt to cite sources or raise actual concerns. You are not speaking for Ghaly or Troy, who are actually contributing constructively to this article in spite of their personal biases, and I do expect them to join me in reverting both sock and meatpuppetry. -- dab (𒁳) 08:34, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
"The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged should be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation. [3] When content in Wikipedia requires direct substantiation, the established convention is to provide an inline citation to the supporting references. The rationale is that this provides the most direct means to verify whether the content is consistent with the references."
In Britain a person can describe their ethnic origin as either British or Welsh, British or Scottish , British or English .
I would like you to explain what you mean by denying that Egyptians are not an Ethnic group and please without intimidation. Ghaly ( talk) 09:03, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Regarding your logic in conversation , I am not convinced that the way you present your argument is either acceptable or compliant with rules of discussion. Ghaly ( talk) 18:45, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Troy is correct in stating that there often is the "dual" meaning of ethnicity and nationality we see here. Thus, "Germans" may refer both to an ethnic group and to citizenship. On one end of the scale, we have groups like "US Americans" (nationality only, no ethnic group) and, say, "Kurds" on the other (ethnicity only, not a nationality). "Egyptians" like many others fall somewhere in between. This is not a problem. Just describe how the group is being described in various sources. These sorces may be in contradiction with one another, that's perfectly normal. Wikipedia doesn't discuss "the Truth", it documents the range of opinions (within WP:DUE). Just cite your sources, and there will be no need for dispute here. There are lots of sources that treat the Egyptians as an Arab group, and we will cite the opinion, but obviously without implying they are "correct". We will of course also cite the opposing opinion that sees the Egyptians as distinct from Arabs. We will not try to decide who is "right" in this. As far as I can see, FunkMonk has merely reverted Zerida sock edits [6]. This is completely uncontroversial, since Zerida is a banned troll and has no business editing Wikipeda. All of his edits, regardless of content, are to be reverted on sight. This should include canvassing and calls to edit-warring like here. -- dab (𒁳) 08:42, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
I put a referrence by error then I corrected it with another three credible referrences , yet just because you don't agree with them you think they should be deleted , Please try to explain your point of view about that .
The consensus you mentioned , do you mean what you said that you are happy with an ethnicity that has been forced on your ancestors , to tell you the truth I am a little pit lost here , what consensus exactley and about what , also your comments like No such thing as Masri in English, what do you mean by this, this discussion that you started and if it wasn't for your edits things would have not developed to where we are, .
As for your logic in discussion, attitude towards other editors and your way of trying to put forward your POV, there would be no problem there if you are compliant with rules of discussion. Ghaly ( talk) 09:57, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
As for the consensus I can not find it, please let me know what consensus has been reached and where exactly I can find it on the talk page.
To
dab and
FunkMonk please don't insult me , twisting my words is not going to get us any where.
Regarding the on-going editing war , I have no interest in sharing in it. Ghaly ( talk) 13:32, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
But the war is not over, and your vandalism WILL be reverted one day. You are at luck that my real life does not currently permit me to indulge in a virtual one. -- Lanternix ( talk) 09:17, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
Troy, if this is about NPOV, you should explain which bit is under dispute, and propose an improved phrasing. If you do that, we have a discussion. If you do not, what can I say, there is no dispute. I hate to repeat myself, but why do you keep ignoring this very simple point? Lanternix hasn't shown he is aware of what "NPOV" actually says, let alone explained what he thinks is the problem. You don't want to take part "in this"? Fine. Then it's settled, because neither do I, nor, by all appearances, does Lanternix. A "dispute" on Wikipedia isn't just people coming to talkpages and calling other people names. That would be Usenet. If nobody has any coherent point to make, what is this even about? Can you now please either discuss the article, or else stop saying you do not want to discuss it. dab (𒁳) 08:17, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Troy, I am sorry, but you are wrong. The mere act of mechanically reverting edits does not show that there is an actual content dispute. There is a wide margin separating the outright "vandal" from Wikipedians in good standing disagreeing over something. Within this margin, you find a colourful crew of trolls, cranks, zealots, cholerics etc. who may believe they are "right" because they haven't read or understood what Wikipedia is trying to do. I strongly object to your equating Laternix' behaviour to mine. I have patiently pointed out that Laternix is out of line, and why. I am aware and fully endorse project policy. I am willing to collaborate with anyone who can say the same. I will not, and am not required to, engage in "disputes" with people who cannot. Now, I would be happy to collaborate with you in the further development of this article, but for this you should please, please stop musing over "vandalism" and begin raising some points on the topic of Egyptians. Otherwise I really do not see why you keep editing a page which right at the top has the message This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Egyptians article., in boldface. dab (𒁳) 14:29, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
At present, the "history" section is a WP:CFORK of History of Egypt. Is anyone interested in working on this? Otherwise, I suggest we simply reduce it to a brief WP:SS summary for the time being, to be expanded into an actual history of the ethnicity in the future. Solving this is the next step forward with this article because the entire article suffers from the bloat in the historical section inflating it to >100k. Once we've cut down the history section to a sensible size, we may begin balancing section contents with a view to making this a "good" article. -- dab (𒁳) 08:51, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
It's ok, I'll just reduce it to WP:SS again. Since Lanternix + socks doesn't even pretend to be participating in a debate, we may need to call in some uninvolved admin to clamp down on the disruption so the article can proceed without all this vitriolic background noise. -- dab (𒁳) 09:55, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
well, I am having a deja vu here. Lanternix is showing exactly the same irrational opposition to finally getting ahead with the article as formerly seen by Zerida and sock army. I must conclude that Lanternix is likely another Zerida sock. Now they're throwing around vitriol about alleged "ad hominem" attacks, anything to avoid discussing the actual issue. FunkMonk, you should not feed the troll. If they persist, let them be banned over 3RR, problem solved. I do not see any bona fide concerns raised here. My recent edits simply addressed some long-standing issues, tagged for months now. I won't second-guess Lanternix' motives, but it seems clear that they want to prevent the development of an encyclopedia article on the Egyptians. This falls under WP:DISRUPT. dab (𒁳) 16:50, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
I think this article should be moved to Egyptian people, that's the norm for articles about modern populations here on Wikipedia. FunkMonk ( talk) 13:30, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
I am not sure I follow you. French is a disambiguation because it can mean "the French" ( French people) or "in French" ( French language), or just "of France" in general. " Egyptians" (the plural) isn't prone to any such ambiguity, nor is " Egyptian", because the people are not known as "the Egyptian" as in "the French", "the Swiss" etc. There is Egyptians (disambiguation) because there is a very minor group known as "Egyptians" in the Balkans, Egyptians (Balkans). If you argue we should disambiguate the modern Egyptians from the Ancient Egyptians, you will note that (a) Ancient Egyptians is just a redirect, and (b) we could just link to Ancient Egyptians from the top of this page if necessary. If we really need an Ancient Egyptians article separate from Ancient Egypt (say as in Gauls and Gaul), somebody would need to sit down and write it first. I am really not quite sure whether I catch your meaning, since this is all perfectly obvious. We create disambiguation pages whenever they are needed, that's purely on a case-by-case basis. -- dab (𒁳) 14:28, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
The Arab World article appears to be suffering from a slow-moving revert war over the question of if Egyptians are Arabs. Since I do not have any particular knowledge of the subject, I cannot really help (I only have the article on my watchlist in order to keep an eye out for socks of a particular banned editor). However I noticed that the Identity section of this article appears to be well sourced and cited with over a dozen references. If any of the editors knowledgeable on this subject could lend a hand on this topic at the Arab World article, I would be very grateful. Thanks, Kralizec! ( talk) 12:48, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
look, this question is a matter of opinion. We are not looking towards "deciding" it, per WP:TRUTH, we just report on the various opinions. Anyone unable to understand this, and trying to impose a statement of how it "really is" is in violation of core policy and consequently has no business editing here and should be entering the warn-block cycle. Thanks, -- dab (𒁳) 12:36, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
I do not have any personal views on this. Putty violated WP:SOAP by airing his personal views, and I asked him to stop it, that's all. If I failed to make myself clear, I am sorry. You don't have to take my word for anything, just go and read WP:NOT, especially WP:TRUTH, and then kindly respect the rules. -- dab (𒁳) 19:53, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
sheesh, this is simply a matter of opinion, or of definition. See WP:TRUTH. Egypt is a founding member and seat of headquarters of the Arab League, so we must admit that the Arab character of Egypt does have some notability. Others disagree. We report whatever is notable, not what's "true". -- dab (𒁳) 10:22, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
do you have a reading problem? You were pointed to WP:TRUTH. You can read there in plain English that Wikipedai is about notability, not truth. If there is a notable opinion linking the Zambians to the Chinese, Wikpedia will report it. Except that it isn't notable but some random nonsense you made up. Nobody here is interested whether Egyptians are "really" Arabs. All we are interested in is, is the idea that "Egyptians are Arabs" at all notable or held by many people? The answer is yes. Now if you cannot or do not want to follow an argument as simple as this one, I do not think there is any point in your "contributing" here. -- dab (𒁳) 11:21, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
First of all, English Wikipedia to me became a joke when it comes to talk about Arabs or Islam. You should add a new template here on the top of any Arabs or Muslims article "This is an article about Mars and you must not think that what mentioned here can be compared to any people or religion on Earth"
First joke: "The national identity of Egyptians as it developed in the 19th to 20th centuries consists of overlapping or conflicting ideologies, a Muslim identity prone to Arab nationalism on one hand, versus a secular nationalism that focuses primarily on Ancient Egypt."
Muslim Identity prone to Arab nationalism? Do you really have such ignorance about the historical disputes between Arabism and Muslim movements? Don't you know who put the basis of Arabism? One of the main principles of Arabism is a complete secularism and Arabism can't be linked to religion at any circumstance.
Another amazing joke in this article that the "nationalists" who are actually fascists are not secular.
Second joke: "It was not until the Nasser era more than a decade later that Arab nationalism"
That actually means that Arab nationalism did rise from nothing! And it doesn't have any roots. Like Mamluk states or Mohamed Ali era. What are you talking about man? Who are these Mamluks or Ayyubids? They don't exist!
Third joke (The Top joke of jokes): "Many Egyptians today feel that Egyptian and Arab identities are inextricably linked, and emphasize the central role that Egypt plays in the Arab world. The Muslim Brotherhood now has a broad following, particularly among the lower-middle class urban population"
How do you count guys? Can 1+1=20??? Doesn't any one here know the disputes between Islamism and Arabism? These two things can't be together as ideology! The doctorine of Muslim Brotherhood is Anti-Arabist. You should read more about the aftermath inside Egypt of Six days war perhaops you get persuaded.
Fourth joke: "'We are not Arabs, we are Egyptians,' said tour guide Shayma, who is a devout Muslim."
(...) Perhaps I was that Shaymaa without my knowledge :d
I am sorry that English wikipedia became a place for such fascist minority to spread their evil ideology and their misleading ideas about Egyptians "Perhaps they don't consider me Egyptian??"
Egyptian lion ( talk) 00:20, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
I remove these exceptional claims until their supporters get reliable references Egyptian lion ( talk) 09:25, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
I wouldn't dream of treating copts.com etc. as a reliable source. The existence of the dispute is properly referenced to academic literature. I don't know how many percent of Egyptians are "Pharaonists", I really have no idea, you show me a reference on that please. See especially the Jankowski (1990) quote. So far, we know that Pharaonism was widespread and notable in the 19th century and up to the 1920s. Pan-Arabism became big in the 1930s. I have no idea which ideology is predominant today, and you are perfectly free to add further material establishing this. -- dab (𒁳) 13:50, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
Is anyone here aware of the latest studies by Cruciani? Egyptians are really not related to North African Berbers. IN genetics The Paternal "Berber marker" now known as M81 shows a frequency in Egypt under 5%. Egyptians on the other hand DO have large amounts of M78. There are many downstream mutations of Marker M78 noted in many of the Newer studies regarding North East African Genetics. Egyptians are PRIMARY M78 (E1b1b1a) while Berbers are M81. Both M81 and M78 are mutations from Ethiopian Marker M35. Previous studies had grouped M78, M81, M35 and other "E Haplotypes" all together giving the impression that they were the same family. The article could be GREATLY improved with the contribution of some modern genetic studies found in the following wiki article.
Main points from the Wikipedia article below. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E3b
Undifferentiated E-V12* lineages (not E-V12 or E-M224, so therefore named "E-V12*") are found at especially high levels (44.3%) in Southern Egyptians, but also scattered widely in small amounts in both Northern Africa and Europe, but with very little sign in Western Asia, apart from Turkey[18]. These E-V12* lineages were formerly included (along with many E-V22* lineages[27]) in Cruciani et al.'s original (2004) "delta cluster", which he had defined using DYS profiles. With the discovery of the defining SNP, Cruciani et al. (2007) reported that V-12* was found in its highest concentrations in Egypt, especially Southern Egypt. Hassan et al. (2008) report a significant presence of E-V12* in neighboring Sudan, including 5/6 Nubians, and 5/5 Copts. E-V12* made up approximately 20% of the Sudanese E-M78. They propose that the E-V12 and E-V22 sub-clades of E1b1b1a (E-M78) might have been brought to Sudan from their place of origin in North Africa after the progressive desertification of the Sahara around 6,000–8,000 years ago. Sudden climate change might have forced several Neolithic cultures/people to migrate northward to the Mediterranean and southward to the Sahel and the Nile Valley. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
24.105.137.28 (
talk)
22:22, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
Why did that happen? This page hasn't become too long yet... Saimdusan Talk| Contribs 01:00, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
Restored comment by an Egyptian whose opinion was suppressed:
this article is bull shit sorry for my language but it is full of fakes and wrong informations this is really stupid y go on this? GEEKS!! ho said that arabic had been forced on egyptians?!!! and from where did you get that caliphs cut the tonges of egyptians who was using coptic language?!!!and who is considering egyptian arabic as a separate language and what is the difference between massryin and misrion?!!! both of them are used in egyptian life like alot of arabic (fosha) used in the egyptian daily life its not that different and by the way we are arabs and we are proud of being arabs thats our identity now even if it had been forced on us long time ago which by the way a big mistake but now all of egyptians proud of their arab identity [8]
There have been several such comments in the past by angry Egyptians who don't recognise the stuff in this article, and all such comments have been removed to hide this fact. FunkMonk ( talk) 11:55, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
There is a clear systematic effort to silence any voice trying to shed some lights on the fact that Egyptians and Arabs are not one and the same, despite all logic and evidence presented. Typical Arabist arrogance and bullying. They endeavour to abolish any identity and erase any memory of true Egyptian culture. They know they can not argue with the facts so they just dismiss your argument and call for it to be silenced. Disgusting! —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Mizraim0 (
talk •
contribs)
16:09, 17 November 2009 (UTC)