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Actually Zehedra, your revert was unwarranted since to the contrary, leaving that entry as is is a misrepresentation of the study, have you read it? What it says in the article and what Keita says are totally different..
Claim made in the article: Quote: "He [Prof. Keita] adds that by the First Dynasty, i.e., at the beginning of Egyptian civilization proper, Egyptians overall were closer to the Northern Egyptian pattern."
^He says no such thing and there is no reason (who ever wrote this) to put words in his mouth.. From the 1992 study..
Further Studies of Crania From Ancient Northern Africa: An Analysis of Crania From First Dynasty Egyptian Tombs, Using Multiple Discriminant Functions, S.O.Y. Keita, American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 87: 245-254 (1992)
Abstract:
taken using multiple discriminant functions. The results demonstrate greater affinity with Upper Nile Valley patterns, but also suggest change from earlier craniometric trends, Gene flow and movement of northern officials to the important southern city may explain the findings.
^"Greater affinity with upper Nile valley patterns", with "upper" meaning "south".. Like I was trying to allude to in my revert, he says that southern Egyptians began to converge onto Northern patterns, but by first Dynasty times they still showed more souther affinities.
Some Quotes:
^In the face of our review of this literature I feel that it should be safe to say that I'm not trying to misrepresent anything and only trying to keep misrepresentation at a minimum.. Obviously I'm right, that at face value and correct interpretation would suggest that the previous statement misrepresents what Keita says.
Taharqa 02:25, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Can you please revert your misrepresentation of the study and quote from me where Keita says this?
"but "lower Egyptian, Maghrebian, and European patterns are observed."
You're passing them off as if they're all different specimens, these are phenotypes used to describe the same "Northern Egyptian pattern"(how he coined it) and not separate specimens of European, Maghrebian, and Lower Egyptian patterns(respectively), this is ruthless misinterpretation.. The irony! Now can you go back and review the quotes I provided and/or the study its self, this doesn't make sense.. Work with me here, geez.. Taharqa 05:27, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
^What are you talking about? Obviously you must not be paying attention because I quoted that already.. I pointed out that this was misrepresented in the first place and Zerdia complied and changed the wording to reflect the source, she succeeded but misquoted Keita..
I will demonstrate once more as I've been trying to yet you keep brushing it off and refuse to discuss, being non-communicative and assuming bad faith/getting personal when this is so simple.
Quote from the front page and its claim:
"The southern pattern continues to predominate by the First Dynasty, but "lower Egyptian, Maghrebian, and European patterns are observed."
^This is wrong and misquotes Keita..
these are phenotypes used to describe the same "Northern African coastal pattern"(how he coined it) and not separate specimens of European, Maghrebian, and Lower Egyptian types(respectively)..
From Keita..
From Keita:
From Keita(This tops off exactly what he said about the Abydos tombs and his conclusion):
No one is being deceptive, simply read the study, the quote in the front is mis-leading, I'm glad Zerida caught it, but she misquoted him.. I reiterate, these are phenotypes used to describe the same "Northern African coastal pattern"(how he coined it) and not separate specimens of European, Maghrebian, and Lower Egyptian patterns(respectively). He was selectively quoted out of context most likely unintentionally.. In other words, he uses dashes for a reason, Northern coastal-Maghreb and European patterns are interchangeable and the terminology who uses to group these phenotypes are "Coastal North African", again, from Keita..
^This is petty and is in no way a rebuttal of what Keita says himself more than it is a personal attack of bad faith on me, giving you an excuse to disregard whatever I contest. You are removing tags and being very disruptive with out even giving an argumwnt, while I've typed an entire essay of valid facts concerning the source. Taharqa 23:09, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Your snide comments have nothing at all to do with quotes, I provided in context quotes, along with the conclusion and all you can do is laugh and revert and throw out personal attacks. I didn't get caught doing anything but trying to keep misrepresentation at a minimum, I'm not interested in having an ego battle with you. Taharqa 23:22, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
I admit that I was wrong about the second part of my complaints as I simply did not see those quotes/or remember reading them and I'm slightly embarrassed. I wasn't trying to save face, I was simply being selective in my interpretation of what he said since he described the modal patterns in more than one way, as you can see above. I was basically only justified in my complaints about the very first entry, which I quoted at the top and was corrected long ago.. I guess the reason I insisted on pushing my interpretation is 1., because I honestly thought it was the only one as quoted by Keita, and 2., because I was being brushed off and ignored, which only leads to frustration and conflict.. Sorry, I won't be bothering this article anymore.. Taharqa 22:07, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
^Can whoever posted this verify that this particular man was an Egyptian? It seems to contradict the widely held view that Fayum mummy portraits represented greek inhabitants of Egypt, and not the Egyptians themselves.
Fayum portraits represent mostly Greek inhabitants of Egypt [1] [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fayum_mummy_portraits Taharqa 04:34, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
^I don't accept that and believe it to be false since these Fayum portraits are generally seen as being Greeks with these paintings coming from a greek heritage from the Greco period of Egypt.
I have sources to the contrary and your claims are unverified and highly suspect since this isn't an established fact and a wild claim.. Can you provide a source which states that this man is Egyptian along with the other Greek Fayum paintings that are obviously Greek?
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-59912/Egyptian-art-and-architecture/ Encyclopædia Britannica Online - Egyptian art and architecture - Greco-Roman Egypt.. These are known to the mainstream as being greeks, where is your proof for the claim that this is an Egyptian with so much historical and authoritative data to the contrary? Taharqa 04:53, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Zerida, I sent you a message and need a reply..
^People are not listening!! Sources agree that Fayum paintings were of Greeks inhabitants and not natives! Again..
Quote: "The mummy, or Fayum, portraits are Egyptian only in that they are associated with essentially Egyptian burial customs. Painted in an encaustic technique, they represent mostly Greek inhabitants of Egypt." http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-59912/Egyptian-art-and-architecture/
^Now provide sources to the contrary or please put the tag back up... This is bias and I will call for dispute resolution, third opinions, or come back everyday, but you're not about to brush me off with POV and sourceless opinions/observations about what you guys personally may think, I addressed an issue and it isn't being handled properly.. People are misrepresenting studies and falsifying historical data and are trying to downplay it as inane while mercilessly reverting everything I do and giving me dry snide comments.... Taharqa 05:05, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
^There are no sources, which is the point.. I can easily say that Roberts and Phillips said this and that, but these claims are not verifiable and are deceptive since according to mainstream sources that is literally not true. I'm the only one posting sources and getting nothing but dry feed back.. There were no anthropological studies on Fayum remains that I know of, and if there were how did they ascertain the differences between who was Greek and who was "Egyptian" and who was "other" and where can I get my hands on this source which identifies them as "Egyptians"? No where I'd guess since this is a fairy tale as any Egyptologist will tell you that they were Greeks and Irish never made such claims.
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-59912/Egyptian-art-and-architecture/
^Are mainstream sources and consensus not reliable but talk page opinions and absurd claims are? Taharqa 05:21, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Zerdia, it doesn't matter, every encyclopedia tells us that by Greek times, Greeks inhabited Egypt and these particular portraits are of Greeks, not Egyptians.. Irish did not study the Fayum during this period nor did he or Berry claim that these Fayum portraits represent Egyptians, but all sources suggest that they do not.. Simple.. The burden of proof is on you to prove that this man is Egyptian because I'm 99% sure that he is not according to historians and Egyptologists who say in that particular time period, the portraits represented Greek inhabitants, you have no source to refute that, so please cut the Original Research.. The man is obviously not Egyptian so why label him as such especially with no source?
Jeeny, your speculation has no bearing on wikipedia policy, sources say that these portraits represent Greeks and says that nothing is Egyptian about this besides the Burial sites.. I asked for sources for a claim made on the article, if there are none and I have some to the contrary it is only fair that people stop being stubborn and imposing their own OR into the article. Taharqa 19:08, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Zerdia, your Original Research is relentless, I bring this to your attention and then you try and doctor up the wiki Fayum article to coincide with your POV and this article? Wow.. That's really playing dirty imo.. Taharqa 20:37, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
^I'm in no way being uncivil, you are by harassing me, I simply want people to stop weaseling away from the issue at hand and address what I'm saying as there are no arguments against it, so it would be totally unreasonable and personal to disregard me and the facts presented in favor of your own unguided and baseless opinions.. Honestly, trying to work with people who refuse to work with you is frustrating.. Taharqa 20:50, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Jeeny, there is another Fayum portrait in the main collage (in the infobox). I don't think it should be removed because he is uncomfortable with how the person looks based on some preconceived notion of what an Egyptian is "supposed" to look like! The Britannica claim is not sufficient here; there is a hierarchy in terms of reliability of sources. I included one by an Egyptologist in the Fayum mummy portraits article, which offers much more detail regarding the city's demographics. Also, these particular mummies were compared with earlier Egyptian populations and were found to be closest to them. See this excerpt from one of the studies I mentioned:
The final sample [51] was recovered at Hawara (HAW) in an early Roman period burial ground for elite members of the Fayum Oasis populace (Grajetzki and Quirke, 2001b)... Badari (0.028), Thebes (0.039), and Hawara (0.041) show a general affinity to all samples. Badari, Thebes, and Hawara are at the heart of this cluster....the Roman-period specimens are much more closely akin to the seven dynastic samples. Kharga and especially Hawara are most similar..." (Irish 2006)
— Zerida 22:42, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Please avoid personal accusations Zerida that make you seem hostile and spiteful, accusing me of having some pre-conceived notion of what Greek Egyptians look like. This is a personal attack that doesn't address my dispute..
The Irish study is Original Research since it doesn't answer the question to whether the people represented in the actual portraits were Greek or Egyptian(where you're trying to apply it), which is what I'm asking and is answered in the encyclopedic source I presented. Your claim that Hawara remains are "most similar" is vague, most similar to what compared to who? That was not a quote from him. No one disputes that Egyptians were predominant numerically in the Fayum oasis anyways, this is a Straw Man.. It has nothing to do with this Nor am I concerned with demographics as I'm quite sure that Native Egyptians were predominant numerically, while Greco-Romans were predominant in caste. My only concern is those select individuals in the portraits and the only source that has answered that question is the good ole encyclopedia.. http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-59912/Egyptian-art-and-architecture/
Quote: "The mummy, or Fayum, portraits are Egyptian only in that they are associated with essentially Egyptian burial customs. Painted in an encaustic technique, they represent mostly Greek inhabitants of Egypt."
^Now please stop using your Original Research to search for references to Fayum remains and try to apply it to your own reasoning and/or other arguments in order to reinforce your POV. For you to claim this man is "Egyptian" when the encyclopedia says most portraits represented greeks, requires special proof, otherwise It will help us all if we can simply stick to what Jeeny suggested and move on.. Taharqa 23:06, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I am sorry but it is your original research Taharqa that has no place in the article. What you are doing here is showing contempt for the reliable sources policy. You've been told before that you must use reliable sources for these claims, but somehow you still think that we should use the Britannica over the Egyptologist and the scientist. Let's not keep repeating ourselves. Egyegy 23:23, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
^Jeeny, you claiming that when you look at the picture you see an Egyptian isn't tenable since you've never seen an Egyptian from the "Roman period", but I do appreciate your compromise as you are correct, It reflects both sources and doesn't conflict the information that we have out there. You are indeed a reasonable person and I do appreciate that, not trying to fight with anyone. Zerida is simply out to be spiteful towards me I feel as she exudes arrogance and imposes her pseudo-knowledge of ancient Egypt on to me doing things like trying to cite Joel Irish where he doesn't even apply, which is of course OR. I already corrected her on her misrepresentation of Keita and now she's saving face by not responding to the messages I sent her and my concerns above. Whatever.. Zerida! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Assume_good_faith Taharqa 17:14, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Hello Jeeny..
Honestly your reasoning in that this is an Egyptian man is invalid, you concede to the fact that the well established source indicates that most of portraits represented "greek inhabitants", therefore it wouldn't be right to assume that the one man is Egyptian since in all probability he isn't given the fact that most weren't. The burden of proof is not on me to provide 100 sources since a reliable one is provided and no other sources presented contradict it(See Occam's razor). The Irish study simply examines remains in an effort to assess biological continuity between dental traits in various AE populations, but he does not asses the nature of the Fayyum mummy representatives, therefore it does not apply to this particular dispute, the source I provided addressed it specifically as a matter of historical fact. This same point can be applied to demographic studies. Also I am not making accusations, it is simply apparent that you seem to be the only one at this point willing to even discuss the matter at hand with out giving snide comments, brushing me off, and reverting. There's people on this page going around vandalizing other articles directly proceeding disputes on here, which is in extremely bad taste. I'm not here to get personal though, only wanted to address an issue, we can all be civil. Egyegy is using Ad hominems , personal bias, and selective investigations to weasel away from the issues at hand that have nothing whatsoever to do with the content of the discussion. Taharqa 20:25, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Philosophy/logic and humor aside, I was only pointing out the error in your broad assumption and I'd rather not waist time and discuss people's personal opinions(which is irrelevant to the facts and/or mainstream view), only was trying to address the content in question as it pertains to historical sources. Taharqa 22:21, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
^I'd like to refrain from giving my personal opinion and POV and simply stick to the reliability of the sources presented and asses what they say, which is that most of the people represented were "Greek inhabitants".. Taharqa 23:25, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
This isn't an issue anymore, I was being petty.. Apologies to all(except those who insulted me and wasn't patient with me).. Taharqa 22:26, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I appreciate the attempt to resolve a dispute by posting a plea on Wikipedia:Third opinion but the third opinion mechanism is intended for disputes involving only two editors. I see four editors here. All of them are attempting to make good-faith improvements to the article, so I encourage you to assume good faith at all times, and refrain from personal attacks. If you can't come to an agreement about the point, I suggest going the RFC or mediation route. - Amatulic 17:31, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
^This is a rather late response that I know you won't receive, but I was wrong about certain things, which I have reconciled. Taharqa 22:26, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
We need some references suggesting why are Semites and Nubians ethnically related to the Egyptians. Amazighs (Berbers) are clearly realted to Egyptians, so I'm not disputing that. But Nubians and Semites? Then how about Greeks who settled in substantial numbers in Egypt between the 4th century BC and the 6th century AD? Thanks. -- Lanternix 16:47, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
How Are modern day Egyptians an ethnic group? Today, "Egyptian" refers to a nationality, not an ethnicity, and there are several ethnicities within Egypt that are still nationally Egyptian. Nationality is not the same as ethnicity, this article shouldn't exist. Funkynusayri 16:43, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm not talking about whether modern Egyptians are related to ancient Egyptians or not, but the fact that Egyptian doesn't refer to any living ethnic group, but a nationality. Different Egyptian groups identify as Arabs, Copts, Berbers, Nubians, so on, but they are all Egyptians by nationality, which is the only thing the term can be applied to, when it comes to modern, living populations. Otherwise you could say that the Swiss, Belgians, Americans, so on, are all ethnicities, which would be absurd. You don't make an article called "Vikings" and write about modern day Scandinavian either. Funkynusayri 17:12, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Could you please respond to me directly? I made some points. Refute them before reverting. Egyptians aren't an ethnic group, the page "Egyptians" should exist, just not in the current form. Funkynusayri 17:39, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm still waiting for a good counter-argument from any of you three (or "most people", as Laternix said.), who seem to own this article. Funkynusayri 21:33, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
You're misinterpreting what I'm saying. I'm not saying that the Egyptian people, who are of course a nationality, shouldn't have an entry. I'm saying that they shouldn't be described as a modern ethnic group, because that is simply not what Egyptian refers to today. Egyptians see themselves as Arabs, Berbers, Copts, so on (ethnic groups), but they are all Egyptian by nationality. I'd like to see some more outside opinions on this. Iraqis aren't an ethnic group either, for example. Funkynusayri 02:05, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
It is hilarious how people will follow you from article to article screaming absurdities like "afrocentrism" this and that, yet you have a bunch of biased Egyptians totally dominating this page and not allowing any room whatsoever for disagreement to the point where disconnecting the modern Arabs of Egypt from ancient Africa is somehow seen as an insult. Wow.. Taharqa 07:44, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I thought Arabs were the sons of Abram / Ibrahim from the Arabian peninsula? Egypt was an major empire before the time Ibrahim even entered into the lands known as Canaan. Surely the majority of Egyptians are not of this anchestory? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.227.166 ( talk) 18:47, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Did not Mohammed say he decended from Ibrahim via Ishmael? Mohammed was an Arab was he not? The Arabian language which was the language of the Arabs was around long before Mohammed and Mohammed used his native tongue to write in. It was through the conquests of Islam that the Arabian language spread further a field.
Did not Egypt have it own language to that spoken by it Arabian neighbours? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.227.166 ( talk) 18:59, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Professor Manu Ampim has indicated that there is evidence to support that the statue of Ra Hotep with is wife is a fraud. Here is the page link. Nuwaubian Hotep 09:25, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
What are manu ampins credentials as far as artwork and egyptology. From my knowledge of him he is only a junior college "professor" with no background in art or art forgery and no background in egyptology, archeology or any other scientific fields.
Junior college professor with some web pages and a chip on his shoulder. Cornytheclown 15:44, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Although I understand it must be tempting, I have some doubts about the relation between these two groups. I mean, the Ancient Egyptians spoke Egyptian, not Arabic, worshiped a different mythology, not Islam or other Abrahamic religions. It seems to me that modern Egyptians are closer to (or are) Arabs than their ancient predecessors. I also think it is strange that the Egyptian population of Egypt is said to be 97-98%, while Arabs are included with a rest group of 2% ... yet Arabic is the most spoken language (by far) in Egypt. Are the editors of this article sure that this isn't an article on a 'nation' (not ethnic group) gone wrong? Rex 14:39, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Setting aside Funky's latest round of personal attacks, the "relation" between the "two groups" is matter of origins in addition to cultural environment. The Greeks of today do not worship the ancient Greek gods, and the Irish of today overwhelmingly speak English. Many Nubian groups have undergone similar processes. But they and the Egyptians are a nation and an ethnic group (a distinction that is not really objectively clear) due to many factors which have been discussed in the past. I suggest looking into the archives. — Zerida 18:31, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Another problem is that this article completely ignores the many Egyptians who do not only identify as Arabised Arabs, but as ethnic Arabs from Arabia itself.
You get me wrong again and again, I know very well that most modern Egyptians are descendants of the ancient Egyptians, but still, they can identify as Arabs while knowing that they are descendants of these ancient Egyptians, which they do. There's no need for making misleading articles, no one is fooled, it only hurts the credibility of Egyptians who work for acknowledgment of their past. Funkynusayri 18:35, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
As for "soap-boxing", again, I don't give a damn about Egyptians, but about facts.
And please refrain from crying "personal attack" and "soap-boxing", when I can back up my arguments. Funkynusayri 19:30, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Funky comes here to troll every once in a while to make some claims about Egyptians identifying as Arabs. A while ago Funky waged an edit war on the Negroid page that went on for months because he tried to include a questionable (racist?) photo in the article [11]. He kept referring to this source:
The total population of Africa at the present day is probably something like 151,000,000, and apportioned racially would consist of 120,000,000 Negroes and Negroids, 6,000,000 pure-blooded Europeans (absolute White men of Northern or Mediterranean stock), and 25,-000,000 of handsome, physically well developed, but mentally rather backward, dark-skinned Caucasians—Berbers, Arabs, Egyptians, Galas, and Abyssinians.
Funky uses this information when it suits his tactics. The disingenuousness behind the constant disruption should not escape the minds of the more discerning. Egyegy 01:45, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
How do you define Egyptians as an ethnicity, the vast majority of Egyptians are Arabs and then there are the Copts though they are slightly culturally Arabs today, maybe just linguistically or slightly culturally...How do you define modern egyptian ethnicity? Is it by stating a common descent from the ancient Egyptians, the borders for defining what was Egyptian then and what is Egyptian now aren't easily defined today? This is confusing even for me??? The Coptics and the Nubians do have acknowledged ties to the ancient Egyptians but can we overencompass the arab definition with that of acknowledging ancestral non-Egyptians, through acknowledging arab-ness where does one acknowledge ancient Egyptian ethnicity?Dom Domsta333 ( talk) 02:14, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
well i am glad this page was a speedy keep it is informative and is evene keeled and has kept its integrity by not being taken over by afrocentric fantasy and myth-- Mikmik2953 ( talk) 18:46, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
no really thats the point smarty pants its based on fact and not been hijacked by afrocentrism myth and fantasy in other words a compliment to keeping it real and neutral you understand now so many articles that have anything to do with egypt have been hijacked-- Mikmik2953 ( talk) 20:31, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
the question of "Coptic" vs. "Arabic" identity is certainly relevant to this article, but the detailed rehash of the History of Ancient Egypt is silly, and bordering on WP:POINT (we get it already, the author of the article doesn't like Arabs). This should be seriously trimmed for relevance. dab (𒁳) 08:31, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
really? Then what, in your opinion, is the scope of this article? This isn't the article on Ancient Egyptians. It also isn't the Copts article. This is the article on modern Egyptian nationals, the vast majority of which are Arabic speaking. There can be a brief reference to Ancient Egypt in an "Origins" section, and there can be a special WP:SS "Copts" section treating these as an ethnic minority within modern Egypt. You are implying this is somehow about Ancient Egypt by making half this article about ancient history, and by giving Ancient Egyptian and Coptic terms for "Egyptian". If this isn't about Copts at all, but just about Arabic speaking Egyptians, why do we discuss Ancient Egypt and the Coptic language here, at all? dab (𒁳) 08:38, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
u really need to take a look at the french language, and List of dialects of the English language articles because, i did not count them but, it's a big number of countries in which there citizens should be called english, or french according to ur perspective. the ancients egyptians were different in physical properties just like a modern society consisting of many ethnic groups, and about the paintings, and statues, these were standardized ways of describing a country, or people; for example, an egyptian army group, would have all the soldiers wearing the same way, have the same skin color, and the same faces, and by the way, a nubian archers division for example, would be the exact same like the rest of the egyptian army excepting for skin color. arabs did not migrate from arabia to settle down in egypt, so did not the romans, persians, and any other different ethnic group than the egyptian. so traditions, religion, and language can vary, but the race or the ethnic group would not change, and the minorities from other ethnic groups, would be absorbed, and merged inside the society, but wouldnot affect the majority, that in turns, keep the ethnic identity of the civilization. non-egyptians may wonder why egypt is officially arab, while egyptians try to drop off the arab identity; i tell u what, if our identity, our present, and maybe even a considerable part of our future were ripped up in previous generations, the present generation would try to at least keep its history, and retain its identity. One last pharaoh ( talk) 13:16, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Most Egyptians are proud of their connections to Ancient Egypt. Also the love-hate relationship between Arab culture and African/Mediterranean culture is predominent within the society. Excising Ancient Egypt from this article would be a disservice to the identity of Nationalist Egyptians as would excising Arabic from the article. ScienceApologist ( talk) 08:49, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
I just looked at the Greeks article. It's obvious that this article is better written. It's time to stop this silliness. Tammoor ( talk) 09:47, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
I think we need to have a little sit-down and a discussion about the scope of this article. I see the comparison with Greeks made above, and let me say that while this article is better written in parts, it does not necessarily mean that the material in it is presented with the correct weighting, or is not misleading in its effect. (Full disclosure: I hate the Greeks article as well, which is written to imply that anyone who questions the strongest form of ethnic Hellenic continuity is either a Nazi or, worse, Turkish. Note: when written this applied to this version; this has since been beautifully rewritten by an Unknown Scholar.) However, that article does at least nod (or spit disparagingly) in the direction of non-continuity. So here's what we need to do:
See that last quote says exactly what I've been saying all along, Arab and Egyptian are not mutually exclusive terms, you may have ancient Egyptian ancestry, but still identify as an Arab. But I doubt that's the way you interpret it.
It doesn't explain how modern Egyptians constitute an ethnic group either.
And please, quit the baseless accusations, I'm not a "pan-Arabist", and I don't see who else you could be referring to. Funkynusayri ( talk) 10:33, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
"ethnic identity battles" can be referenced for what they are, with proper references on ethnic identity battles. But they shouldn't take place on-wiki, or be suggested implicitly without any reference. We can and should discuss "Egyptian Arabism" vs. "Egyptian nativism" in this article, but we need to do it up front. Any detailed history of Ancient Egypt is simply offtopic, period. dab (𒁳) 10:56, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
ok, I seem to understand that this is in fact about Pharaonism, itself a substub. We seem to be looking at an ideological struggle between " Pharaonism" and Pan-Arabism, with Zerida "defending" his "Pharaonist" article against "Pan-Arabist" trolling. Nothing new under the sun, I suppose, that's the exact same dispute we've seen under other "-isms" at dozens of other ethnicity articles. dab (𒁳) 11:06, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Note: any and all comments on contributors rather than on specific comment will be summarily removed from the page as irrelevant to the purpose of this talkpage. Lets keep this focused on the article, people. We can hate each other afterwards. :) -- Relata refero ( disp.) 11:33, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
well... relata, u did not need to delete my last edits here,i am the one who wrote them , and i am responsible of each word in it. so here it is so that my dear brothers from arabia can see it. One last pharaoh ( talk) 13:30, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
cleanup tags, and even citation requests were simply removed, on no other grounds than
WP:ILIKEIT. I admit there can be debate on the points raised, hence I do not insist on my precise revisions, but I do insist that cleanup templates placed in good faith and backed up with a rationale on talk are not removed until the issue is properly resolved. I am not saying it is wrong to hint at continuity. I am saying it is wrong (viz.,
WP:POINT) to emphasize the notion of continuity by simply duplicating most of the content at
Ancient Egypt. This needs to be resolved, hence the cleanup tag. It will also not do to play down the fact that Egypt is de facto a predominantly Arabized, Islamic nation today. There are pre-Islamic remnants, but they need to be treated as remnants per
WP:DUE.
dab
(𒁳) 17:13, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
so, in short, you refuse to collaborate within Wikipedia policy and are trying to WP:OWN this article. You'll have no joy this way, and the problem will not go away by revert warring. If you are interested in developing this article, your only option is collaboration in good faith. Yes, "my logic" dictates that after a detailed article on the History of Egypt has been developed, the coverage of the same topic in this article needs to be reduced to a summary per WP:SS. Appalling, isn't it. dab (𒁳) 08:01, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Zerida, if you have objections to the changes, point them out within Wikipedia policy. Even if you do that, do not remove cleanup tags and citation requests. Your present approach of simple obstinacy is not going to work, and will simply disfigure the article for extended periods of time. dab (𒁳) 16:02, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
revert-warring in the absence of discussion, and talkpage edits such as this one indicate that we have a bad case of WP:OWN and of nationalist antiquity frenzy here. Supervision is clearly needed here, by as many eyes as possible, and if necessary semi-protection. dab (𒁳) 18:15, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
I pruned the "ancient history" section, reducing article length from an insane 95k to 78k. The "History" section is still a full WP:CFORK of history of Egypt weighing 41k. It needs to be further dramatically reduced in length, it will not do to keep a full replica of the History of Egypt article here. dab (𒁳) 18:22, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
this is the article on the Egyptians. You know, the 72 million people living in Egypt. Very few of these 72 million will have more than an, ahem, passing familiarity with the ancient Egyptian language. It is for you to explain what 40 kilobytes (!) of WP:CFORK on History of Ancient Egypt are doing here. The Copts, of course, should be discussed, but they need to be discussed as the clear minority they are, per WP:DUE. They are discussed in detail at Copts. I honestly fail to see what you want. I am convinced my position is correct both wrt WP:MOS and WP:NPOV, and I will not back down unless my concerns are addressed within Wikipedia guidelines. Please don't bother edit-warring about it. dab (𒁳) 21:55, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Reverted of course, per discussion and answers ad nauseam. — Zerida ☥ 22:34, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
nothing to do with "deletion", nothing to do with "vandalism". If you continue to refuse the merit of the concerns raised, we'll get nowhere. You fail to explain why the content of history of Ancient Egypt should be duplicated here. "content forking" means that you are addressing the scope of an existing article at a second, separate article. We can't have that, or we'll end up with a dozen articles discussing the history of Ancient Egypt. The scope of this article is not Ancient Egypt. It is the modern, Arabic-speaking ethnic group. If you think we need an article about the Ancient Egyptians, as opposed to Ancient Egypt (where this title currently redirects), kindly create an article there. Now this would simply be bad editing, if it wasn't for the obvious political agenda. You are clearly disrupting Wikipedia to make a point, the point in question being showing your preference for indigenist over Arabic nationalism. A Pan-Arabist trying the same tactics would inundate the article with 50 kilobytes of Arabic history and the arrival of Arabic culture and Islam to Egypt (viz., they would create a giant bloated WP:CFORK of Muslim conquest of Egypt and History of Arab Egypt). An editor whishing to emphasize Egypt's Christian heritage would dump a full CFORK of History of Roman Egypt and Copts. You can see this will not do. What we do want here is a neutral sketch of this discourse in 20th century Egyptian society. If you are willing to help building this, you are welcome to help. If you're just here to push your nationalist agenda and call efforts towards cleanup "vandalism", you'd better walk away. dab (𒁳) 09:50, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Main article: Origin of Egyptians Further information: Predynastic Egypt, Proto-Afro-Asiatic, and Origin of the Nilotic peoples What's the purpose of all the duplication?-- Doug Weller ( talk) 16:19, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
sorry, but that's nonsense. What part of this is "about the PEOPLE"?
(and so on and so on, that's just the "Old Kingdom" section). This is about dynasties, pyramids, architecture, astronomy, literature, religion, and what have you, not about populations or "the PEOPLE". Give us a break. I do not need to come up with "something better" simply because you choose to apply WP:IDONTLIKEIT to the perfectly valid reason I give. This article is about the modern group. Ancient Egypt may be mentioned, for historical background, but it is not the topic of this article. Now I edited the article to address its problems, instead of a step-by-step process involving cleanup templates and debate, because the cleanup templates and citation requests I did place were removed in obviously disruptive manner by Zerida and others. If Zerida doesn-t want to play by the rules, he has no business playing at all. I am happy to invest time in debate with bona fide editors. I have no interest in wasting my time talking at pov warriors without respect for policy or proper wiki behaviour. dab (𒁳) 17:25, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
here's a source I googled on what this article should be discussing
Zerida, your "preference for indigenous Egyptian (and otherwise) history" is most welcome, at any article in the Ancient Egypt category. You are wasting your and my time and nerves by insisting on doing the right thing at the wrong place. dab (𒁳) 07:54, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
terminology: Gershoni calls the two opposing nationalist movements "Westernized Egyptianist" and "Islamic-Arab". We should perhaps follow suit and use "Egyptianism", since "Pharaonism" is used as the term for the historical Pharaonic state. dab (𒁳) 11:54, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
(unindent)Dab's not a vandal and as he says, this isn't a symmetrical "dispute". I'm not an admin or I would probably take action now. Egygy, your language is not acceptable.-- Doug Weller ( talk) 17:40, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
stop doing summary reverts. If you have something to say, do it point by point. Use the appropriate tags, such as {{ fact}}, {{ NPOV}} etc. Otherwise, no progress is possible, and your behaviour at present clearly falls under WP:DISRUPT. dab (𒁳) 06:54, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
The hostility is all yours. The sooner you recognize there is a dispute, and make an attempt to explain and justify your position (if you have any beyond WP:OWN), the sooner there can be progress. Until you show that minimal amount of good faith, the cleanup tags stay in place. No, it does not "take more than one" to revert war. I am not pushing a particular revision. I have explained the problem patiently, and have been prepared to pursue WP:DR while the issues under debate are marked with standard cleanup tags. This is good Wikipedia practice. It only takes one to ignore all procedure and policy, and stubbornly revert-war to their WP:OWN version without debate. This isn't a symmetrical dispute, it is good faith Wikipedia process vs. disruptive to vandalistic temper-tantrums. I am under no obligation to lower my expectations of talkpage interaction to Egyegy's approach, and until there is some genuine reaction to the issues raised, I don't see there is anything to discuss here. Unless Egyegy and tag-team resort to respecting Wikipedia rules now, this isn't a case of a "dispute", but a simple case of disruption to be tackled by admin action. dab (𒁳) 10:45, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
You've done nothing but push that one revision you made up even though you clearly show no understanding or knowledge of the article, just motivated by obvious anti-Egyptian hostility. Just because you feel you need to crap all over an article doesn't mean we're obligated to accept your crap. Your behavior on this article is just further proof that all the things that have been brought against you were true. You don't have any respect for wikipedia consesus or process, so we'll just have to treat yo similarly. You might think you're being a good old German cowboy here, but I can assure you that this trolling won't get any further than it has in all of your past interactions. Egyegy ( talk) 17:35, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
When I saw the picture featuring 10 famous Egyptians, I realized that lots of more people could be added. I started a new picture and in it I added Mohamed el-Baradei and am thinking about adding Imhotep, but I don't know if I should add el-Sadat, since his mother was Sudanese. Anyways, I will make two copies, one featuring el-Sadat, and another featuring Nasser. Can you please suggest if I could put both, or if there are any other people worth putting. For the kind of people we are looking for, please take a look at this: [ French people] Hobapotter ( talk) 16:19, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
List of people we can add:
Thanks for reminding me. Actually, it is my first time to upload an image on Wikipedia. I sent a message to the original author of en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Egyptians.jpg Egyptians.jpg to ask him for permission to use his picture and am waiting for response. Hobapotter ( talk) 18:49, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Why is it tht the Egyptians have their own article, while other Arab nations don't? The Egyptians are Arabic-speaking Muslims who mostly consider themselves Arabs. Yes, I agree, they where never Arabs before and I hope that they stop seeing themselves as Arabs, but that doesn't mean they aren't almost always seen as Arabs now. Saimdusan Talk| Contribs 00:45, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Egyptians are in fact Arabic-speaking Muslims in a large majority (90%), and should be presented as such per WP:DUE, but of course the existence of an Arabic-speaking Christian minority (10%) should be noted. I don't know if they "mostly consider themselves Arabs" -- that's precisely the topic under dispute, and we'll need to see references for either position. As I understand it (and present in a referenced discussion (Gershoni 1992)) that keeps getting blanked by the trolls [15] [16]), the "Egyptians are Arabs" ideology was pushed during the Nasser period, but has become the view of a (sizeable, 25% or so) minority since, with the majority opting for a "Westernized, Egyptianist", non-Arab national identity. This is open to discussion, provided WP:RS are cited. Discussion is to take place in a civilized manner, without revert warring, hostility and trolling. I understand that the trolling we see here is motivated by the "Egyptianist" desire to deny the existence of the minority view even as a minority view -- clearly against core policy ( WP:NPOV) of course. -- dab (𒁳) 10:53, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
It should be mentioned that Egyptians, contrary to popular belief, are not a subgroup of Arabs; but rather many Egyptians are also Arabs, while others are not (since ethnicity is voluntary).-- Yolgnu ( talk) 12:45, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
There's no point saying "most Anglophones consider Egyptians a subgroup of Arabs"; that's like saying "most Anglophones consider this to be a dialect of Italian" on the Maltese page. Rather, we should explain why Egyptians are often also considered to be Arabs - primarily because they speak Arabic (Standard as well as Egyptian - we shouldn't deny the diglossia, which is one of the main reasons why Egyptians are sometimes not considered a legitimate ethnic group). The formal name of the country they mostly live in, and its membership in the Arab League, is largely irrelevant - ethnic groups don't have governing bodies.-- Yolgnu ( talk) 04:27, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Understand and write, sorry, not speak. As to their legitimacy, I agree with it, but the examples you've given are bad ones: Serbs and Croats don't claim continuity with a group who spoke a different language from them, and the difference between Egyptians and Irish is that some people still speak Irish, while Egyptian (Coptic) has been extinct for centuries. On the other hand, Egyptian and Coptic are fully attested, with much literature, unlike, say, Gaulish, which is why French people are not considered to have continuity with the Gauls.-- Yolgnu ( talk) 07:32, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Maltese are not Arabs, not because other people don't consider them Arabs, but because they themselves don't consider themselves Arabs. As to your second point, most Palestinians consider themselves Arabs, while most Egyptians don't; and the Emirati people article shouldn't exist, while the Lebanese people article was created by you.-- Yolgnu ( talk) 08:47, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Yolgnu... that would be proving a negative. Where's your evidence that they do? The Arabist opinion should definitely be in the opening section, since it is definitely a very common opinion. For those who always saw Egypt as part of the Arab world or those who don't know about Arabization or Phoenicianism, Arameanism, Assyrianism, etc. they'll just walk off confused (as I originally did when stumbling onto this article) or walking off seeing Egyptians as an ethnic group being uncontested fact. While I agree that Egyptians should see themselves as Egyptians rather than Arabs, that is not fact and should not be presented as such. Saimdusan Talk| Contribs 06:36, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
Bayoumi, you may want to check WP:V: Your opinions are all very well, as long as you can present them based on academic sources. I am sure you know a lot about this, but you will understand that Wikipedia cannot just take your word for things. You may also check WP:TALK: Article talkpages are for discussion of how to best present the sources we have, not for free exchange of opinions or sermons. I have shown the way to go by coming up with Gershoni (1992) as a quotable source. Of course there is no reason to leave it at that. You are perfectly free to come up with other sources, possibly taking opposing views. It's just that as long as you do not present any source, there really isn't anything for us to discuss here. Zerida is doing well by citing Leila Ahmed. Now if he would insert a discussion of the views of Leila Ahmed instead of just reverting to a version that ignores this whole issue, we might be getting somewhere. I would certainly endorse a citation of Ahmed illustrating the anti-Nasser, anti-Arabist position. dab (𒁳) 07:32, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
here's a source I googled on what this article should be discussing
Zerida, your "preference for indigenous Egyptian (and otherwise) history" is most welcome, at any article in the Ancient Egypt category. You are wasting your and my time and nerves by insisting on doing the right thing at the wrong place. dab (𒁳) 07:54, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
terminology: Gershoni calls the two opposing nationalist movements "Westernized Egyptianist" and "Islamic-Arab". We should perhaps follow suit and use "Egyptianism", since "Pharaonism" is used as the term for the historical Pharaonic state. dab (𒁳) 11:54, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
(unindent)Dab's not a vandal and as he says, this isn't a symmetrical "dispute". I'm not an admin or I would probably take action now. Egygy, your language is not acceptable.-- Doug Weller ( talk) 17:40, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
stop doing summary reverts. If you have something to say, do it point by point. Use the appropriate tags, such as {{ fact}}, {{ NPOV}} etc. Otherwise, no progress is possible, and your behaviour at present clearly falls under WP:DISRUPT. dab (𒁳) 06:54, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
The hostility is all yours. The sooner you recognize there is a dispute, and make an attempt to explain and justify your position (if you have any beyond WP:OWN), the sooner there can be progress. Until you show that minimal amount of good faith, the cleanup tags stay in place. No, it does not "take more than one" to revert war. I am not pushing a particular revision. I have explained the problem patiently, and have been prepared to pursue WP:DR while the issues under debate are marked with standard cleanup tags. This is good Wikipedia practice. It only takes one to ignore all procedure and policy, and stubbornly revert-war to their WP:OWN version without debate. This isn't a symmetrical dispute, it is good faith Wikipedia process vs. disruptive to vandalistic temper-tantrums. I am under no obligation to lower my expectations of talkpage interaction to Egyegy's approach, and until there is some genuine reaction to the issues raised, I don't see there is anything to discuss here. Unless Egyegy and tag-team resort to respecting Wikipedia rules now, this isn't a case of a "dispute", but a simple case of disruption to be tackled by admin action. dab (𒁳) 10:45, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
You've done nothing but push that one revision you made up even though you clearly show no understanding or knowledge of the article, just motivated by obvious anti-Egyptian hostility. Just because you feel you need to crap all over an article doesn't mean we're obligated to accept your crap. Your behavior on this article is just further proof that all the things that have been brought against you were true. You don't have any respect for wikipedia consesus or process, so we'll just have to treat yo similarly. You might think you're being a good old German cowboy here, but I can assure you that this trolling won't get any further than it has in all of your past interactions. Egyegy ( talk) 17:35, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Actually Zehedra, your revert was unwarranted since to the contrary, leaving that entry as is is a misrepresentation of the study, have you read it? What it says in the article and what Keita says are totally different..
Claim made in the article: Quote: "He [Prof. Keita] adds that by the First Dynasty, i.e., at the beginning of Egyptian civilization proper, Egyptians overall were closer to the Northern Egyptian pattern."
^He says no such thing and there is no reason (who ever wrote this) to put words in his mouth.. From the 1992 study..
Further Studies of Crania From Ancient Northern Africa: An Analysis of Crania From First Dynasty Egyptian Tombs, Using Multiple Discriminant Functions, S.O.Y. Keita, American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 87: 245-254 (1992)
Abstract:
taken using multiple discriminant functions. The results demonstrate greater affinity with Upper Nile Valley patterns, but also suggest change from earlier craniometric trends, Gene flow and movement of northern officials to the important southern city may explain the findings.
^"Greater affinity with upper Nile valley patterns", with "upper" meaning "south".. Like I was trying to allude to in my revert, he says that southern Egyptians began to converge onto Northern patterns, but by first Dynasty times they still showed more souther affinities.
Some Quotes:
^In the face of our review of this literature I feel that it should be safe to say that I'm not trying to misrepresent anything and only trying to keep misrepresentation at a minimum.. Obviously I'm right, that at face value and correct interpretation would suggest that the previous statement misrepresents what Keita says.
Taharqa 02:25, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Can you please revert your misrepresentation of the study and quote from me where Keita says this?
"but "lower Egyptian, Maghrebian, and European patterns are observed."
You're passing them off as if they're all different specimens, these are phenotypes used to describe the same "Northern Egyptian pattern"(how he coined it) and not separate specimens of European, Maghrebian, and Lower Egyptian patterns(respectively), this is ruthless misinterpretation.. The irony! Now can you go back and review the quotes I provided and/or the study its self, this doesn't make sense.. Work with me here, geez.. Taharqa 05:27, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
^What are you talking about? Obviously you must not be paying attention because I quoted that already.. I pointed out that this was misrepresented in the first place and Zerdia complied and changed the wording to reflect the source, she succeeded but misquoted Keita..
I will demonstrate once more as I've been trying to yet you keep brushing it off and refuse to discuss, being non-communicative and assuming bad faith/getting personal when this is so simple.
Quote from the front page and its claim:
"The southern pattern continues to predominate by the First Dynasty, but "lower Egyptian, Maghrebian, and European patterns are observed."
^This is wrong and misquotes Keita..
these are phenotypes used to describe the same "Northern African coastal pattern"(how he coined it) and not separate specimens of European, Maghrebian, and Lower Egyptian types(respectively)..
From Keita..
From Keita:
From Keita(This tops off exactly what he said about the Abydos tombs and his conclusion):
No one is being deceptive, simply read the study, the quote in the front is mis-leading, I'm glad Zerida caught it, but she misquoted him.. I reiterate, these are phenotypes used to describe the same "Northern African coastal pattern"(how he coined it) and not separate specimens of European, Maghrebian, and Lower Egyptian patterns(respectively). He was selectively quoted out of context most likely unintentionally.. In other words, he uses dashes for a reason, Northern coastal-Maghreb and European patterns are interchangeable and the terminology who uses to group these phenotypes are "Coastal North African", again, from Keita..
^This is petty and is in no way a rebuttal of what Keita says himself more than it is a personal attack of bad faith on me, giving you an excuse to disregard whatever I contest. You are removing tags and being very disruptive with out even giving an argumwnt, while I've typed an entire essay of valid facts concerning the source. Taharqa 23:09, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Your snide comments have nothing at all to do with quotes, I provided in context quotes, along with the conclusion and all you can do is laugh and revert and throw out personal attacks. I didn't get caught doing anything but trying to keep misrepresentation at a minimum, I'm not interested in having an ego battle with you. Taharqa 23:22, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
I admit that I was wrong about the second part of my complaints as I simply did not see those quotes/or remember reading them and I'm slightly embarrassed. I wasn't trying to save face, I was simply being selective in my interpretation of what he said since he described the modal patterns in more than one way, as you can see above. I was basically only justified in my complaints about the very first entry, which I quoted at the top and was corrected long ago.. I guess the reason I insisted on pushing my interpretation is 1., because I honestly thought it was the only one as quoted by Keita, and 2., because I was being brushed off and ignored, which only leads to frustration and conflict.. Sorry, I won't be bothering this article anymore.. Taharqa 22:07, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
^Can whoever posted this verify that this particular man was an Egyptian? It seems to contradict the widely held view that Fayum mummy portraits represented greek inhabitants of Egypt, and not the Egyptians themselves.
Fayum portraits represent mostly Greek inhabitants of Egypt [1] [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fayum_mummy_portraits Taharqa 04:34, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
^I don't accept that and believe it to be false since these Fayum portraits are generally seen as being Greeks with these paintings coming from a greek heritage from the Greco period of Egypt.
I have sources to the contrary and your claims are unverified and highly suspect since this isn't an established fact and a wild claim.. Can you provide a source which states that this man is Egyptian along with the other Greek Fayum paintings that are obviously Greek?
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-59912/Egyptian-art-and-architecture/ Encyclopædia Britannica Online - Egyptian art and architecture - Greco-Roman Egypt.. These are known to the mainstream as being greeks, where is your proof for the claim that this is an Egyptian with so much historical and authoritative data to the contrary? Taharqa 04:53, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Zerida, I sent you a message and need a reply..
^People are not listening!! Sources agree that Fayum paintings were of Greeks inhabitants and not natives! Again..
Quote: "The mummy, or Fayum, portraits are Egyptian only in that they are associated with essentially Egyptian burial customs. Painted in an encaustic technique, they represent mostly Greek inhabitants of Egypt." http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-59912/Egyptian-art-and-architecture/
^Now provide sources to the contrary or please put the tag back up... This is bias and I will call for dispute resolution, third opinions, or come back everyday, but you're not about to brush me off with POV and sourceless opinions/observations about what you guys personally may think, I addressed an issue and it isn't being handled properly.. People are misrepresenting studies and falsifying historical data and are trying to downplay it as inane while mercilessly reverting everything I do and giving me dry snide comments.... Taharqa 05:05, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
^There are no sources, which is the point.. I can easily say that Roberts and Phillips said this and that, but these claims are not verifiable and are deceptive since according to mainstream sources that is literally not true. I'm the only one posting sources and getting nothing but dry feed back.. There were no anthropological studies on Fayum remains that I know of, and if there were how did they ascertain the differences between who was Greek and who was "Egyptian" and who was "other" and where can I get my hands on this source which identifies them as "Egyptians"? No where I'd guess since this is a fairy tale as any Egyptologist will tell you that they were Greeks and Irish never made such claims.
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-59912/Egyptian-art-and-architecture/
^Are mainstream sources and consensus not reliable but talk page opinions and absurd claims are? Taharqa 05:21, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Zerdia, it doesn't matter, every encyclopedia tells us that by Greek times, Greeks inhabited Egypt and these particular portraits are of Greeks, not Egyptians.. Irish did not study the Fayum during this period nor did he or Berry claim that these Fayum portraits represent Egyptians, but all sources suggest that they do not.. Simple.. The burden of proof is on you to prove that this man is Egyptian because I'm 99% sure that he is not according to historians and Egyptologists who say in that particular time period, the portraits represented Greek inhabitants, you have no source to refute that, so please cut the Original Research.. The man is obviously not Egyptian so why label him as such especially with no source?
Jeeny, your speculation has no bearing on wikipedia policy, sources say that these portraits represent Greeks and says that nothing is Egyptian about this besides the Burial sites.. I asked for sources for a claim made on the article, if there are none and I have some to the contrary it is only fair that people stop being stubborn and imposing their own OR into the article. Taharqa 19:08, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Zerdia, your Original Research is relentless, I bring this to your attention and then you try and doctor up the wiki Fayum article to coincide with your POV and this article? Wow.. That's really playing dirty imo.. Taharqa 20:37, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
^I'm in no way being uncivil, you are by harassing me, I simply want people to stop weaseling away from the issue at hand and address what I'm saying as there are no arguments against it, so it would be totally unreasonable and personal to disregard me and the facts presented in favor of your own unguided and baseless opinions.. Honestly, trying to work with people who refuse to work with you is frustrating.. Taharqa 20:50, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Jeeny, there is another Fayum portrait in the main collage (in the infobox). I don't think it should be removed because he is uncomfortable with how the person looks based on some preconceived notion of what an Egyptian is "supposed" to look like! The Britannica claim is not sufficient here; there is a hierarchy in terms of reliability of sources. I included one by an Egyptologist in the Fayum mummy portraits article, which offers much more detail regarding the city's demographics. Also, these particular mummies were compared with earlier Egyptian populations and were found to be closest to them. See this excerpt from one of the studies I mentioned:
The final sample [51] was recovered at Hawara (HAW) in an early Roman period burial ground for elite members of the Fayum Oasis populace (Grajetzki and Quirke, 2001b)... Badari (0.028), Thebes (0.039), and Hawara (0.041) show a general affinity to all samples. Badari, Thebes, and Hawara are at the heart of this cluster....the Roman-period specimens are much more closely akin to the seven dynastic samples. Kharga and especially Hawara are most similar..." (Irish 2006)
— Zerida 22:42, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Please avoid personal accusations Zerida that make you seem hostile and spiteful, accusing me of having some pre-conceived notion of what Greek Egyptians look like. This is a personal attack that doesn't address my dispute..
The Irish study is Original Research since it doesn't answer the question to whether the people represented in the actual portraits were Greek or Egyptian(where you're trying to apply it), which is what I'm asking and is answered in the encyclopedic source I presented. Your claim that Hawara remains are "most similar" is vague, most similar to what compared to who? That was not a quote from him. No one disputes that Egyptians were predominant numerically in the Fayum oasis anyways, this is a Straw Man.. It has nothing to do with this Nor am I concerned with demographics as I'm quite sure that Native Egyptians were predominant numerically, while Greco-Romans were predominant in caste. My only concern is those select individuals in the portraits and the only source that has answered that question is the good ole encyclopedia.. http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-59912/Egyptian-art-and-architecture/
Quote: "The mummy, or Fayum, portraits are Egyptian only in that they are associated with essentially Egyptian burial customs. Painted in an encaustic technique, they represent mostly Greek inhabitants of Egypt."
^Now please stop using your Original Research to search for references to Fayum remains and try to apply it to your own reasoning and/or other arguments in order to reinforce your POV. For you to claim this man is "Egyptian" when the encyclopedia says most portraits represented greeks, requires special proof, otherwise It will help us all if we can simply stick to what Jeeny suggested and move on.. Taharqa 23:06, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I am sorry but it is your original research Taharqa that has no place in the article. What you are doing here is showing contempt for the reliable sources policy. You've been told before that you must use reliable sources for these claims, but somehow you still think that we should use the Britannica over the Egyptologist and the scientist. Let's not keep repeating ourselves. Egyegy 23:23, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
^Jeeny, you claiming that when you look at the picture you see an Egyptian isn't tenable since you've never seen an Egyptian from the "Roman period", but I do appreciate your compromise as you are correct, It reflects both sources and doesn't conflict the information that we have out there. You are indeed a reasonable person and I do appreciate that, not trying to fight with anyone. Zerida is simply out to be spiteful towards me I feel as she exudes arrogance and imposes her pseudo-knowledge of ancient Egypt on to me doing things like trying to cite Joel Irish where he doesn't even apply, which is of course OR. I already corrected her on her misrepresentation of Keita and now she's saving face by not responding to the messages I sent her and my concerns above. Whatever.. Zerida! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Assume_good_faith Taharqa 17:14, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Hello Jeeny..
Honestly your reasoning in that this is an Egyptian man is invalid, you concede to the fact that the well established source indicates that most of portraits represented "greek inhabitants", therefore it wouldn't be right to assume that the one man is Egyptian since in all probability he isn't given the fact that most weren't. The burden of proof is not on me to provide 100 sources since a reliable one is provided and no other sources presented contradict it(See Occam's razor). The Irish study simply examines remains in an effort to assess biological continuity between dental traits in various AE populations, but he does not asses the nature of the Fayyum mummy representatives, therefore it does not apply to this particular dispute, the source I provided addressed it specifically as a matter of historical fact. This same point can be applied to demographic studies. Also I am not making accusations, it is simply apparent that you seem to be the only one at this point willing to even discuss the matter at hand with out giving snide comments, brushing me off, and reverting. There's people on this page going around vandalizing other articles directly proceeding disputes on here, which is in extremely bad taste. I'm not here to get personal though, only wanted to address an issue, we can all be civil. Egyegy is using Ad hominems , personal bias, and selective investigations to weasel away from the issues at hand that have nothing whatsoever to do with the content of the discussion. Taharqa 20:25, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Philosophy/logic and humor aside, I was only pointing out the error in your broad assumption and I'd rather not waist time and discuss people's personal opinions(which is irrelevant to the facts and/or mainstream view), only was trying to address the content in question as it pertains to historical sources. Taharqa 22:21, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
^I'd like to refrain from giving my personal opinion and POV and simply stick to the reliability of the sources presented and asses what they say, which is that most of the people represented were "Greek inhabitants".. Taharqa 23:25, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
This isn't an issue anymore, I was being petty.. Apologies to all(except those who insulted me and wasn't patient with me).. Taharqa 22:26, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I appreciate the attempt to resolve a dispute by posting a plea on Wikipedia:Third opinion but the third opinion mechanism is intended for disputes involving only two editors. I see four editors here. All of them are attempting to make good-faith improvements to the article, so I encourage you to assume good faith at all times, and refrain from personal attacks. If you can't come to an agreement about the point, I suggest going the RFC or mediation route. - Amatulic 17:31, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
^This is a rather late response that I know you won't receive, but I was wrong about certain things, which I have reconciled. Taharqa 22:26, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
We need some references suggesting why are Semites and Nubians ethnically related to the Egyptians. Amazighs (Berbers) are clearly realted to Egyptians, so I'm not disputing that. But Nubians and Semites? Then how about Greeks who settled in substantial numbers in Egypt between the 4th century BC and the 6th century AD? Thanks. -- Lanternix 16:47, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
How Are modern day Egyptians an ethnic group? Today, "Egyptian" refers to a nationality, not an ethnicity, and there are several ethnicities within Egypt that are still nationally Egyptian. Nationality is not the same as ethnicity, this article shouldn't exist. Funkynusayri 16:43, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm not talking about whether modern Egyptians are related to ancient Egyptians or not, but the fact that Egyptian doesn't refer to any living ethnic group, but a nationality. Different Egyptian groups identify as Arabs, Copts, Berbers, Nubians, so on, but they are all Egyptians by nationality, which is the only thing the term can be applied to, when it comes to modern, living populations. Otherwise you could say that the Swiss, Belgians, Americans, so on, are all ethnicities, which would be absurd. You don't make an article called "Vikings" and write about modern day Scandinavian either. Funkynusayri 17:12, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Could you please respond to me directly? I made some points. Refute them before reverting. Egyptians aren't an ethnic group, the page "Egyptians" should exist, just not in the current form. Funkynusayri 17:39, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm still waiting for a good counter-argument from any of you three (or "most people", as Laternix said.), who seem to own this article. Funkynusayri 21:33, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
You're misinterpreting what I'm saying. I'm not saying that the Egyptian people, who are of course a nationality, shouldn't have an entry. I'm saying that they shouldn't be described as a modern ethnic group, because that is simply not what Egyptian refers to today. Egyptians see themselves as Arabs, Berbers, Copts, so on (ethnic groups), but they are all Egyptian by nationality. I'd like to see some more outside opinions on this. Iraqis aren't an ethnic group either, for example. Funkynusayri 02:05, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
It is hilarious how people will follow you from article to article screaming absurdities like "afrocentrism" this and that, yet you have a bunch of biased Egyptians totally dominating this page and not allowing any room whatsoever for disagreement to the point where disconnecting the modern Arabs of Egypt from ancient Africa is somehow seen as an insult. Wow.. Taharqa 07:44, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I thought Arabs were the sons of Abram / Ibrahim from the Arabian peninsula? Egypt was an major empire before the time Ibrahim even entered into the lands known as Canaan. Surely the majority of Egyptians are not of this anchestory? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.227.166 ( talk) 18:47, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Did not Mohammed say he decended from Ibrahim via Ishmael? Mohammed was an Arab was he not? The Arabian language which was the language of the Arabs was around long before Mohammed and Mohammed used his native tongue to write in. It was through the conquests of Islam that the Arabian language spread further a field.
Did not Egypt have it own language to that spoken by it Arabian neighbours? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.227.166 ( talk) 18:59, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Professor Manu Ampim has indicated that there is evidence to support that the statue of Ra Hotep with is wife is a fraud. Here is the page link. Nuwaubian Hotep 09:25, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
What are manu ampins credentials as far as artwork and egyptology. From my knowledge of him he is only a junior college "professor" with no background in art or art forgery and no background in egyptology, archeology or any other scientific fields.
Junior college professor with some web pages and a chip on his shoulder. Cornytheclown 15:44, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Although I understand it must be tempting, I have some doubts about the relation between these two groups. I mean, the Ancient Egyptians spoke Egyptian, not Arabic, worshiped a different mythology, not Islam or other Abrahamic religions. It seems to me that modern Egyptians are closer to (or are) Arabs than their ancient predecessors. I also think it is strange that the Egyptian population of Egypt is said to be 97-98%, while Arabs are included with a rest group of 2% ... yet Arabic is the most spoken language (by far) in Egypt. Are the editors of this article sure that this isn't an article on a 'nation' (not ethnic group) gone wrong? Rex 14:39, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Setting aside Funky's latest round of personal attacks, the "relation" between the "two groups" is matter of origins in addition to cultural environment. The Greeks of today do not worship the ancient Greek gods, and the Irish of today overwhelmingly speak English. Many Nubian groups have undergone similar processes. But they and the Egyptians are a nation and an ethnic group (a distinction that is not really objectively clear) due to many factors which have been discussed in the past. I suggest looking into the archives. — Zerida 18:31, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Another problem is that this article completely ignores the many Egyptians who do not only identify as Arabised Arabs, but as ethnic Arabs from Arabia itself.
You get me wrong again and again, I know very well that most modern Egyptians are descendants of the ancient Egyptians, but still, they can identify as Arabs while knowing that they are descendants of these ancient Egyptians, which they do. There's no need for making misleading articles, no one is fooled, it only hurts the credibility of Egyptians who work for acknowledgment of their past. Funkynusayri 18:35, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
As for "soap-boxing", again, I don't give a damn about Egyptians, but about facts.
And please refrain from crying "personal attack" and "soap-boxing", when I can back up my arguments. Funkynusayri 19:30, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Funky comes here to troll every once in a while to make some claims about Egyptians identifying as Arabs. A while ago Funky waged an edit war on the Negroid page that went on for months because he tried to include a questionable (racist?) photo in the article [11]. He kept referring to this source:
The total population of Africa at the present day is probably something like 151,000,000, and apportioned racially would consist of 120,000,000 Negroes and Negroids, 6,000,000 pure-blooded Europeans (absolute White men of Northern or Mediterranean stock), and 25,-000,000 of handsome, physically well developed, but mentally rather backward, dark-skinned Caucasians—Berbers, Arabs, Egyptians, Galas, and Abyssinians.
Funky uses this information when it suits his tactics. The disingenuousness behind the constant disruption should not escape the minds of the more discerning. Egyegy 01:45, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
How do you define Egyptians as an ethnicity, the vast majority of Egyptians are Arabs and then there are the Copts though they are slightly culturally Arabs today, maybe just linguistically or slightly culturally...How do you define modern egyptian ethnicity? Is it by stating a common descent from the ancient Egyptians, the borders for defining what was Egyptian then and what is Egyptian now aren't easily defined today? This is confusing even for me??? The Coptics and the Nubians do have acknowledged ties to the ancient Egyptians but can we overencompass the arab definition with that of acknowledging ancestral non-Egyptians, through acknowledging arab-ness where does one acknowledge ancient Egyptian ethnicity?Dom Domsta333 ( talk) 02:14, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
well i am glad this page was a speedy keep it is informative and is evene keeled and has kept its integrity by not being taken over by afrocentric fantasy and myth-- Mikmik2953 ( talk) 18:46, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
no really thats the point smarty pants its based on fact and not been hijacked by afrocentrism myth and fantasy in other words a compliment to keeping it real and neutral you understand now so many articles that have anything to do with egypt have been hijacked-- Mikmik2953 ( talk) 20:31, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
the question of "Coptic" vs. "Arabic" identity is certainly relevant to this article, but the detailed rehash of the History of Ancient Egypt is silly, and bordering on WP:POINT (we get it already, the author of the article doesn't like Arabs). This should be seriously trimmed for relevance. dab (𒁳) 08:31, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
really? Then what, in your opinion, is the scope of this article? This isn't the article on Ancient Egyptians. It also isn't the Copts article. This is the article on modern Egyptian nationals, the vast majority of which are Arabic speaking. There can be a brief reference to Ancient Egypt in an "Origins" section, and there can be a special WP:SS "Copts" section treating these as an ethnic minority within modern Egypt. You are implying this is somehow about Ancient Egypt by making half this article about ancient history, and by giving Ancient Egyptian and Coptic terms for "Egyptian". If this isn't about Copts at all, but just about Arabic speaking Egyptians, why do we discuss Ancient Egypt and the Coptic language here, at all? dab (𒁳) 08:38, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
u really need to take a look at the french language, and List of dialects of the English language articles because, i did not count them but, it's a big number of countries in which there citizens should be called english, or french according to ur perspective. the ancients egyptians were different in physical properties just like a modern society consisting of many ethnic groups, and about the paintings, and statues, these were standardized ways of describing a country, or people; for example, an egyptian army group, would have all the soldiers wearing the same way, have the same skin color, and the same faces, and by the way, a nubian archers division for example, would be the exact same like the rest of the egyptian army excepting for skin color. arabs did not migrate from arabia to settle down in egypt, so did not the romans, persians, and any other different ethnic group than the egyptian. so traditions, religion, and language can vary, but the race or the ethnic group would not change, and the minorities from other ethnic groups, would be absorbed, and merged inside the society, but wouldnot affect the majority, that in turns, keep the ethnic identity of the civilization. non-egyptians may wonder why egypt is officially arab, while egyptians try to drop off the arab identity; i tell u what, if our identity, our present, and maybe even a considerable part of our future were ripped up in previous generations, the present generation would try to at least keep its history, and retain its identity. One last pharaoh ( talk) 13:16, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Most Egyptians are proud of their connections to Ancient Egypt. Also the love-hate relationship between Arab culture and African/Mediterranean culture is predominent within the society. Excising Ancient Egypt from this article would be a disservice to the identity of Nationalist Egyptians as would excising Arabic from the article. ScienceApologist ( talk) 08:49, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
I just looked at the Greeks article. It's obvious that this article is better written. It's time to stop this silliness. Tammoor ( talk) 09:47, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
I think we need to have a little sit-down and a discussion about the scope of this article. I see the comparison with Greeks made above, and let me say that while this article is better written in parts, it does not necessarily mean that the material in it is presented with the correct weighting, or is not misleading in its effect. (Full disclosure: I hate the Greeks article as well, which is written to imply that anyone who questions the strongest form of ethnic Hellenic continuity is either a Nazi or, worse, Turkish. Note: when written this applied to this version; this has since been beautifully rewritten by an Unknown Scholar.) However, that article does at least nod (or spit disparagingly) in the direction of non-continuity. So here's what we need to do:
See that last quote says exactly what I've been saying all along, Arab and Egyptian are not mutually exclusive terms, you may have ancient Egyptian ancestry, but still identify as an Arab. But I doubt that's the way you interpret it.
It doesn't explain how modern Egyptians constitute an ethnic group either.
And please, quit the baseless accusations, I'm not a "pan-Arabist", and I don't see who else you could be referring to. Funkynusayri ( talk) 10:33, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
"ethnic identity battles" can be referenced for what they are, with proper references on ethnic identity battles. But they shouldn't take place on-wiki, or be suggested implicitly without any reference. We can and should discuss "Egyptian Arabism" vs. "Egyptian nativism" in this article, but we need to do it up front. Any detailed history of Ancient Egypt is simply offtopic, period. dab (𒁳) 10:56, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
ok, I seem to understand that this is in fact about Pharaonism, itself a substub. We seem to be looking at an ideological struggle between " Pharaonism" and Pan-Arabism, with Zerida "defending" his "Pharaonist" article against "Pan-Arabist" trolling. Nothing new under the sun, I suppose, that's the exact same dispute we've seen under other "-isms" at dozens of other ethnicity articles. dab (𒁳) 11:06, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Note: any and all comments on contributors rather than on specific comment will be summarily removed from the page as irrelevant to the purpose of this talkpage. Lets keep this focused on the article, people. We can hate each other afterwards. :) -- Relata refero ( disp.) 11:33, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
well... relata, u did not need to delete my last edits here,i am the one who wrote them , and i am responsible of each word in it. so here it is so that my dear brothers from arabia can see it. One last pharaoh ( talk) 13:30, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
cleanup tags, and even citation requests were simply removed, on no other grounds than
WP:ILIKEIT. I admit there can be debate on the points raised, hence I do not insist on my precise revisions, but I do insist that cleanup templates placed in good faith and backed up with a rationale on talk are not removed until the issue is properly resolved. I am not saying it is wrong to hint at continuity. I am saying it is wrong (viz.,
WP:POINT) to emphasize the notion of continuity by simply duplicating most of the content at
Ancient Egypt. This needs to be resolved, hence the cleanup tag. It will also not do to play down the fact that Egypt is de facto a predominantly Arabized, Islamic nation today. There are pre-Islamic remnants, but they need to be treated as remnants per
WP:DUE.
dab
(𒁳) 17:13, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
so, in short, you refuse to collaborate within Wikipedia policy and are trying to WP:OWN this article. You'll have no joy this way, and the problem will not go away by revert warring. If you are interested in developing this article, your only option is collaboration in good faith. Yes, "my logic" dictates that after a detailed article on the History of Egypt has been developed, the coverage of the same topic in this article needs to be reduced to a summary per WP:SS. Appalling, isn't it. dab (𒁳) 08:01, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Zerida, if you have objections to the changes, point them out within Wikipedia policy. Even if you do that, do not remove cleanup tags and citation requests. Your present approach of simple obstinacy is not going to work, and will simply disfigure the article for extended periods of time. dab (𒁳) 16:02, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
revert-warring in the absence of discussion, and talkpage edits such as this one indicate that we have a bad case of WP:OWN and of nationalist antiquity frenzy here. Supervision is clearly needed here, by as many eyes as possible, and if necessary semi-protection. dab (𒁳) 18:15, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
I pruned the "ancient history" section, reducing article length from an insane 95k to 78k. The "History" section is still a full WP:CFORK of history of Egypt weighing 41k. It needs to be further dramatically reduced in length, it will not do to keep a full replica of the History of Egypt article here. dab (𒁳) 18:22, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
this is the article on the Egyptians. You know, the 72 million people living in Egypt. Very few of these 72 million will have more than an, ahem, passing familiarity with the ancient Egyptian language. It is for you to explain what 40 kilobytes (!) of WP:CFORK on History of Ancient Egypt are doing here. The Copts, of course, should be discussed, but they need to be discussed as the clear minority they are, per WP:DUE. They are discussed in detail at Copts. I honestly fail to see what you want. I am convinced my position is correct both wrt WP:MOS and WP:NPOV, and I will not back down unless my concerns are addressed within Wikipedia guidelines. Please don't bother edit-warring about it. dab (𒁳) 21:55, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Reverted of course, per discussion and answers ad nauseam. — Zerida ☥ 22:34, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
nothing to do with "deletion", nothing to do with "vandalism". If you continue to refuse the merit of the concerns raised, we'll get nowhere. You fail to explain why the content of history of Ancient Egypt should be duplicated here. "content forking" means that you are addressing the scope of an existing article at a second, separate article. We can't have that, or we'll end up with a dozen articles discussing the history of Ancient Egypt. The scope of this article is not Ancient Egypt. It is the modern, Arabic-speaking ethnic group. If you think we need an article about the Ancient Egyptians, as opposed to Ancient Egypt (where this title currently redirects), kindly create an article there. Now this would simply be bad editing, if it wasn't for the obvious political agenda. You are clearly disrupting Wikipedia to make a point, the point in question being showing your preference for indigenist over Arabic nationalism. A Pan-Arabist trying the same tactics would inundate the article with 50 kilobytes of Arabic history and the arrival of Arabic culture and Islam to Egypt (viz., they would create a giant bloated WP:CFORK of Muslim conquest of Egypt and History of Arab Egypt). An editor whishing to emphasize Egypt's Christian heritage would dump a full CFORK of History of Roman Egypt and Copts. You can see this will not do. What we do want here is a neutral sketch of this discourse in 20th century Egyptian society. If you are willing to help building this, you are welcome to help. If you're just here to push your nationalist agenda and call efforts towards cleanup "vandalism", you'd better walk away. dab (𒁳) 09:50, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Main article: Origin of Egyptians Further information: Predynastic Egypt, Proto-Afro-Asiatic, and Origin of the Nilotic peoples What's the purpose of all the duplication?-- Doug Weller ( talk) 16:19, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
sorry, but that's nonsense. What part of this is "about the PEOPLE"?
(and so on and so on, that's just the "Old Kingdom" section). This is about dynasties, pyramids, architecture, astronomy, literature, religion, and what have you, not about populations or "the PEOPLE". Give us a break. I do not need to come up with "something better" simply because you choose to apply WP:IDONTLIKEIT to the perfectly valid reason I give. This article is about the modern group. Ancient Egypt may be mentioned, for historical background, but it is not the topic of this article. Now I edited the article to address its problems, instead of a step-by-step process involving cleanup templates and debate, because the cleanup templates and citation requests I did place were removed in obviously disruptive manner by Zerida and others. If Zerida doesn-t want to play by the rules, he has no business playing at all. I am happy to invest time in debate with bona fide editors. I have no interest in wasting my time talking at pov warriors without respect for policy or proper wiki behaviour. dab (𒁳) 17:25, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
here's a source I googled on what this article should be discussing
Zerida, your "preference for indigenous Egyptian (and otherwise) history" is most welcome, at any article in the Ancient Egypt category. You are wasting your and my time and nerves by insisting on doing the right thing at the wrong place. dab (𒁳) 07:54, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
terminology: Gershoni calls the two opposing nationalist movements "Westernized Egyptianist" and "Islamic-Arab". We should perhaps follow suit and use "Egyptianism", since "Pharaonism" is used as the term for the historical Pharaonic state. dab (𒁳) 11:54, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
(unindent)Dab's not a vandal and as he says, this isn't a symmetrical "dispute". I'm not an admin or I would probably take action now. Egygy, your language is not acceptable.-- Doug Weller ( talk) 17:40, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
stop doing summary reverts. If you have something to say, do it point by point. Use the appropriate tags, such as {{ fact}}, {{ NPOV}} etc. Otherwise, no progress is possible, and your behaviour at present clearly falls under WP:DISRUPT. dab (𒁳) 06:54, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
The hostility is all yours. The sooner you recognize there is a dispute, and make an attempt to explain and justify your position (if you have any beyond WP:OWN), the sooner there can be progress. Until you show that minimal amount of good faith, the cleanup tags stay in place. No, it does not "take more than one" to revert war. I am not pushing a particular revision. I have explained the problem patiently, and have been prepared to pursue WP:DR while the issues under debate are marked with standard cleanup tags. This is good Wikipedia practice. It only takes one to ignore all procedure and policy, and stubbornly revert-war to their WP:OWN version without debate. This isn't a symmetrical dispute, it is good faith Wikipedia process vs. disruptive to vandalistic temper-tantrums. I am under no obligation to lower my expectations of talkpage interaction to Egyegy's approach, and until there is some genuine reaction to the issues raised, I don't see there is anything to discuss here. Unless Egyegy and tag-team resort to respecting Wikipedia rules now, this isn't a case of a "dispute", but a simple case of disruption to be tackled by admin action. dab (𒁳) 10:45, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
You've done nothing but push that one revision you made up even though you clearly show no understanding or knowledge of the article, just motivated by obvious anti-Egyptian hostility. Just because you feel you need to crap all over an article doesn't mean we're obligated to accept your crap. Your behavior on this article is just further proof that all the things that have been brought against you were true. You don't have any respect for wikipedia consesus or process, so we'll just have to treat yo similarly. You might think you're being a good old German cowboy here, but I can assure you that this trolling won't get any further than it has in all of your past interactions. Egyegy ( talk) 17:35, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
When I saw the picture featuring 10 famous Egyptians, I realized that lots of more people could be added. I started a new picture and in it I added Mohamed el-Baradei and am thinking about adding Imhotep, but I don't know if I should add el-Sadat, since his mother was Sudanese. Anyways, I will make two copies, one featuring el-Sadat, and another featuring Nasser. Can you please suggest if I could put both, or if there are any other people worth putting. For the kind of people we are looking for, please take a look at this: [ French people] Hobapotter ( talk) 16:19, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
List of people we can add:
Thanks for reminding me. Actually, it is my first time to upload an image on Wikipedia. I sent a message to the original author of en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Egyptians.jpg Egyptians.jpg to ask him for permission to use his picture and am waiting for response. Hobapotter ( talk) 18:49, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Why is it tht the Egyptians have their own article, while other Arab nations don't? The Egyptians are Arabic-speaking Muslims who mostly consider themselves Arabs. Yes, I agree, they where never Arabs before and I hope that they stop seeing themselves as Arabs, but that doesn't mean they aren't almost always seen as Arabs now. Saimdusan Talk| Contribs 00:45, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Egyptians are in fact Arabic-speaking Muslims in a large majority (90%), and should be presented as such per WP:DUE, but of course the existence of an Arabic-speaking Christian minority (10%) should be noted. I don't know if they "mostly consider themselves Arabs" -- that's precisely the topic under dispute, and we'll need to see references for either position. As I understand it (and present in a referenced discussion (Gershoni 1992)) that keeps getting blanked by the trolls [15] [16]), the "Egyptians are Arabs" ideology was pushed during the Nasser period, but has become the view of a (sizeable, 25% or so) minority since, with the majority opting for a "Westernized, Egyptianist", non-Arab national identity. This is open to discussion, provided WP:RS are cited. Discussion is to take place in a civilized manner, without revert warring, hostility and trolling. I understand that the trolling we see here is motivated by the "Egyptianist" desire to deny the existence of the minority view even as a minority view -- clearly against core policy ( WP:NPOV) of course. -- dab (𒁳) 10:53, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
It should be mentioned that Egyptians, contrary to popular belief, are not a subgroup of Arabs; but rather many Egyptians are also Arabs, while others are not (since ethnicity is voluntary).-- Yolgnu ( talk) 12:45, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
There's no point saying "most Anglophones consider Egyptians a subgroup of Arabs"; that's like saying "most Anglophones consider this to be a dialect of Italian" on the Maltese page. Rather, we should explain why Egyptians are often also considered to be Arabs - primarily because they speak Arabic (Standard as well as Egyptian - we shouldn't deny the diglossia, which is one of the main reasons why Egyptians are sometimes not considered a legitimate ethnic group). The formal name of the country they mostly live in, and its membership in the Arab League, is largely irrelevant - ethnic groups don't have governing bodies.-- Yolgnu ( talk) 04:27, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Understand and write, sorry, not speak. As to their legitimacy, I agree with it, but the examples you've given are bad ones: Serbs and Croats don't claim continuity with a group who spoke a different language from them, and the difference between Egyptians and Irish is that some people still speak Irish, while Egyptian (Coptic) has been extinct for centuries. On the other hand, Egyptian and Coptic are fully attested, with much literature, unlike, say, Gaulish, which is why French people are not considered to have continuity with the Gauls.-- Yolgnu ( talk) 07:32, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Maltese are not Arabs, not because other people don't consider them Arabs, but because they themselves don't consider themselves Arabs. As to your second point, most Palestinians consider themselves Arabs, while most Egyptians don't; and the Emirati people article shouldn't exist, while the Lebanese people article was created by you.-- Yolgnu ( talk) 08:47, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Yolgnu... that would be proving a negative. Where's your evidence that they do? The Arabist opinion should definitely be in the opening section, since it is definitely a very common opinion. For those who always saw Egypt as part of the Arab world or those who don't know about Arabization or Phoenicianism, Arameanism, Assyrianism, etc. they'll just walk off confused (as I originally did when stumbling onto this article) or walking off seeing Egyptians as an ethnic group being uncontested fact. While I agree that Egyptians should see themselves as Egyptians rather than Arabs, that is not fact and should not be presented as such. Saimdusan Talk| Contribs 06:36, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
Bayoumi, you may want to check WP:V: Your opinions are all very well, as long as you can present them based on academic sources. I am sure you know a lot about this, but you will understand that Wikipedia cannot just take your word for things. You may also check WP:TALK: Article talkpages are for discussion of how to best present the sources we have, not for free exchange of opinions or sermons. I have shown the way to go by coming up with Gershoni (1992) as a quotable source. Of course there is no reason to leave it at that. You are perfectly free to come up with other sources, possibly taking opposing views. It's just that as long as you do not present any source, there really isn't anything for us to discuss here. Zerida is doing well by citing Leila Ahmed. Now if he would insert a discussion of the views of Leila Ahmed instead of just reverting to a version that ignores this whole issue, we might be getting somewhere. I would certainly endorse a citation of Ahmed illustrating the anti-Nasser, anti-Arabist position. dab (𒁳) 07:32, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
here's a source I googled on what this article should be discussing
Zerida, your "preference for indigenous Egyptian (and otherwise) history" is most welcome, at any article in the Ancient Egypt category. You are wasting your and my time and nerves by insisting on doing the right thing at the wrong place. dab (𒁳) 07:54, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
terminology: Gershoni calls the two opposing nationalist movements "Westernized Egyptianist" and "Islamic-Arab". We should perhaps follow suit and use "Egyptianism", since "Pharaonism" is used as the term for the historical Pharaonic state. dab (𒁳) 11:54, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
(unindent)Dab's not a vandal and as he says, this isn't a symmetrical "dispute". I'm not an admin or I would probably take action now. Egygy, your language is not acceptable.-- Doug Weller ( talk) 17:40, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
stop doing summary reverts. If you have something to say, do it point by point. Use the appropriate tags, such as {{ fact}}, {{ NPOV}} etc. Otherwise, no progress is possible, and your behaviour at present clearly falls under WP:DISRUPT. dab (𒁳) 06:54, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
The hostility is all yours. The sooner you recognize there is a dispute, and make an attempt to explain and justify your position (if you have any beyond WP:OWN), the sooner there can be progress. Until you show that minimal amount of good faith, the cleanup tags stay in place. No, it does not "take more than one" to revert war. I am not pushing a particular revision. I have explained the problem patiently, and have been prepared to pursue WP:DR while the issues under debate are marked with standard cleanup tags. This is good Wikipedia practice. It only takes one to ignore all procedure and policy, and stubbornly revert-war to their WP:OWN version without debate. This isn't a symmetrical dispute, it is good faith Wikipedia process vs. disruptive to vandalistic temper-tantrums. I am under no obligation to lower my expectations of talkpage interaction to Egyegy's approach, and until there is some genuine reaction to the issues raised, I don't see there is anything to discuss here. Unless Egyegy and tag-team resort to respecting Wikipedia rules now, this isn't a case of a "dispute", but a simple case of disruption to be tackled by admin action. dab (𒁳) 10:45, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
You've done nothing but push that one revision you made up even though you clearly show no understanding or knowledge of the article, just motivated by obvious anti-Egyptian hostility. Just because you feel you need to crap all over an article doesn't mean we're obligated to accept your crap. Your behavior on this article is just further proof that all the things that have been brought against you were true. You don't have any respect for wikipedia consesus or process, so we'll just have to treat yo similarly. You might think you're being a good old German cowboy here, but I can assure you that this trolling won't get any further than it has in all of your past interactions. Egyegy ( talk) 17:35, 17 May 2008 (UTC)