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I feel uncomfortable writing the sound /j/ as j rather than y. In fact, I have about 15 different texts in my house on various varieties of Arabic, including 3 textbooks on Egyptian Arabic and 3 other books that discuss EA in fair depth, and every single one uses y. Basically, not one of them transcribes spoken Arabic using strict IPA. The systems used for transcription differ somewhat in their writing of some of the consonants, and also in the EA epenthetic vowel, but they're quite consistent in writing the EA short vowels as a i u (sometimes with an additional vowel ɑ), and in using y. Also, not one writes the emphatic consonants as e.g. tˤ dˤ; most common is ṭ ḍ, although some use ʈ ɖ or the like. The non-use of IPA even occurs in a book like The Semitic Languages (Robert Hetzron, ed.), where the chapter "Arabic Dialects and Maltese" by Alan S. Kaye and Judith Rosenhouse uses standard IPA when needed for clarity but still prefers to write e.g. Cairene huwwa hiyya ṛaaṣ ḍarabúu ḥa’’úku(m) ("he she head they-hit-him your-(pl.)-right").
One of the main reasons for this is that the use of y j for /j dʒ/ is quite standard in the transcription of Classical Arabic. The fact that j surfaces as g in Egyptian doesn't really change this, as most descriptions of Egyptian and other spoken varieties are explicitly set up with the comparison to Classical Arabic in mind.
Given that this is the standard use in the reliable sources, I'd suggest we do the same. One way to do this would be to dispense with the IPA-based phonemic notation I've been using, and instead use a phonemic transcription that is consistent with the usual transcriptions in the standard sources. Along with this, an IPA-based phonetic notation would be included when necessary for clarity, similar to the current use of phonemic vs. phonetic.
Examples of transcription:
Note about "Egyptian Colloquial Arabic":
Suggestions:
There is no consistency in indicating the epenthetic vowel. Examples:
I'd suggest il bint-ĭ di. This follows the majority in using some variant of i, but avoids the problem with capital I, which is that in a sans-serif font (e.g. as is the default in the browser I use, Firefox on Mac OS X), it looks identical to lowercase l.
Tentative conclusion:
The idea of all this is that the primary purpose of the phonemic transcription is to clarify the structure of the language rather than to focus on the phonetic detail.
Example:
fi yóom min záat il-ʔayyáam ɡúḥa-txáaniʔ wayya-mṛáat-u fa ṭaṛaḍít-u mi-l-béet. fa xáṛaɡ zaʕláan wi kan ɡaʕáan ɡíddan wi-mfállis. fa ʕámal ʃaḥḥáat wi fíḍil yilíff-ĭ min ʃáariʕ li ʃáariʕ wi min ḥáaṛa-l ḥáaṛa-w min béet li béet, yíʃḥat wi-yʔúul ‘ḥásana li-lláah, míin yiʃaḥḥát-ni ʔírʃ-ĭ walla lúʔmit ʕéeʃ ʔaṛúdd-ĭ bíi-ha ɡúʕt-i? min yoméen ma kált-ĭ-ʃ wi-mṛáat-i ṭaṛḍáa-ni mi-l-béet. Benwing ( talk) 07:26, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
I-l
problem, use Droid Sans, Tahoma or Segoe UI as your default sans-serif font. --
Mahmudmasri (
talk)
22:01, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
I don't know who wrote this but it's biased and full of lies
Please rewrite it there is no language as Egyptian Arabic ,it's a little ugly accents are not even similar to each other to call it a language. it's just like any other accent ,Saudi Arabic or Lebanese Arabic
I'm Egyptian and what i did read was full of lies. thanks.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.129.30.91 ( talk) 17:31, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
The article is indeed complete nonsense. The title should at least be changed to "Egyptian Colloquial Arabic", or "Egyptian Arabic Dialect".--
173.32.132.6 (
talk)
19:40, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
Most of the article simply based on original research as far as I can see.
Starting from the Phonology section no adequate sources are provided (except for the Consonants which is well referenced by Janet Watson's book). I'm afraid this article will have the same fate of
North Syriac Arabic.--
Rafy
talk
12:07, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
I wonder why isnt there a grammar page for the language specially seeing the great interest in it considering the length of the article. I hope there is a grammer page that would clear things up and at the same time, not crowd the article here. -- MasriDefend ( talk) 23:02, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
I will give the editors of "Egyptian Arabic" one month to explain what "Egyptian arabic" is and use reliable sources to proof it, then I will start by first editing the name of the article and then use more verified content.
Wikipedia should be based on scientific facts built upon reliable and verified sources. Not wishful thinkings or legends used within minorities of diffrent religions and ethnicities. The arabic language is one language, then there is diffrent accents. Also the constitution of respective country should be put in consideration. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kamah12aa ( talk • contribs) 21:29, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
To make it easier for you to understand, when an Irish person speaks English, he isn't creating a new language, he is speaking in English in a different accent
This is the same for Egyptian people, they speak Arabic with their own Accent.
This article is full of incorrect information. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
2.49.92.64 (
talk)
10:25, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
I am very surprised for not mentioning a very common and used plural suffix "-at" for things and "-een" for human and "-ean" for two things. ex: sittat, mudarseen(teachers(fem and male)), mudarsean(two teachers (fem and male)). Is there something I am not aware of, arent they for plural too? -- MasriDefend ( talk) 01:07, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
Currently the article is repeatedly attacked by Uishaki who repeatedly changes scientific terms into politicized imprecise terms as the primary namings. [1] [2] [3]. See also WP:Edit-war, dialect, language, a language is a dialect with an army and navy, varieties of Arabic. I don't think Wikipedia should be a place where I have to explain what are the differences between a dialect and a language and when to use each. Currently, the article is precise and factual; each naming is cited at least in one source. The section Namings has all the names for Egyptian Arabic. Censoring the namings for " political reasons" is meaningless. -- Mahmudmasri ( talk) 17:30, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
The normal position for these in Coptic is before the noun. Pamour ( talk) 21:20, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
Hi, this article is very interesting, but I do have something to say about the grammar section. First, it is very long and completely dominates the article. Second (and more importantly), it is a little esoteric and probably completely incomprehensible to those unfamiliar with Arabic. Couldn't we cut out the grammar section and move it to a new page called Egyptian Arabic grammar? We can work out the information there and provide proper explanation, while we keep a less detailed section on EA grammar in this article. Steinbach ( talk) 10:21, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
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The persistent claims that the wildly different varieties of Arabic comprise a single language seem politically based. To say that the differences between standard Arabic and Egyptian Arabic are merely a matter of "accent" strains credulity. Take the simple expression "I didn't give it to them yesterday":
Arabic - lam a`Tiha lahum ams (لم أعطها لهم أمس)
Egyptian - ma-ddet-ha-l-hum-sh imbaariH (ما اديتهالهمش امبارح)
71.175.177.162 ( talk) 18:05, 10 March 2014 (UTC)Mr.Slade
Yes, but that sentence is not Masri. It is standard Arabic. That's the point. Mr.Slade ( talk) 15:31, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
Egyptian Arabic has a very rich vocabulary and of course it's different than Classical Arabic, it has thousands of local ancient and modern Egyptian words, a Coptic based grammar and a totally different way of pronunciation. The only thing that makes Egyptian Arabic understandable among many Arabic-speaking countries is that it's massively widespread thanks to Egyptian movie industry and songs, that's why Masry words like Kalbouz, Safroot, Ah'eeh, Embou, Bes Bes, Toz, Tatta, Zambalek, Nona, Balboos, Kekh, Endegha, Ouz3a, Halfoot, Toot, Yad, Wad, Edeeni, Kokha, Rokhi, Karkar, Bah, Werwer, Bekh, Wahawi ..etc can be understandable for those Arabic-speaking countries while they are not Arabic at all. Not to mention the endless list of modern Masry words and phrases like Fashkh, Ta7n, Tahyees, Antakha, Estabeena, Tarta2, Tennek ,,,,and so on.
Egyptian Premier League ( talk) 07:52, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
I'm sure this may have come up in discussions here before, but in case this happened only a long time ago, or never, I want to say that the only historical and linguistic studies done on the Egyptian language point to coptic rather than Arabic as the original source. Though the vocabulary is predominantly Arabic, everything else isn't. The same how English is strongly influenced by French vocabulary but isn't itself french, nor even romance (french language family). Defining the egyptian as Arabic in WP should at least be balanced with information of how other theories exist regarding its identity. But it is a very problematic POV to suffice with stating that it developed from Quranic Arabic as if this is a fact, especially given that there isn't any evidence to support this remote possibility, While evidence of the other theory actually abound! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 43.224.84.190 ( talk) 06:56, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
Hi,
In the introduction one can read that "While it is primarily a spoken language, the written form is used in novels, plays and poems (vernacular literature), as well as in comics, advertising, some newspapers and transcriptions of popular songs."
However, I cannot find any source in the article regarding the use of Egyptian Arabic in comics, advertising, some newspapers and transcriptions of popular songs. Should this part be removed from the initial summary? Or could sources be added to the article?
Best,
A455bcd9 ( talk) 11:22, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
The Pronoun section suddenly starts to use accented vowels (á & é) in words such as - ʔább & béet. Without any prior usage or definition of these characters. A correspondence table to the IPA indicating what these characters stand for will help with clarity of the article Nausher — Preceding undated comment added 18:52, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
I feel uncomfortable writing the sound /j/ as j rather than y. In fact, I have about 15 different texts in my house on various varieties of Arabic, including 3 textbooks on Egyptian Arabic and 3 other books that discuss EA in fair depth, and every single one uses y. Basically, not one of them transcribes spoken Arabic using strict IPA. The systems used for transcription differ somewhat in their writing of some of the consonants, and also in the EA epenthetic vowel, but they're quite consistent in writing the EA short vowels as a i u (sometimes with an additional vowel ɑ), and in using y. Also, not one writes the emphatic consonants as e.g. tˤ dˤ; most common is ṭ ḍ, although some use ʈ ɖ or the like. The non-use of IPA even occurs in a book like The Semitic Languages (Robert Hetzron, ed.), where the chapter "Arabic Dialects and Maltese" by Alan S. Kaye and Judith Rosenhouse uses standard IPA when needed for clarity but still prefers to write e.g. Cairene huwwa hiyya ṛaaṣ ḍarabúu ḥa’’úku(m) ("he she head they-hit-him your-(pl.)-right").
One of the main reasons for this is that the use of y j for /j dʒ/ is quite standard in the transcription of Classical Arabic. The fact that j surfaces as g in Egyptian doesn't really change this, as most descriptions of Egyptian and other spoken varieties are explicitly set up with the comparison to Classical Arabic in mind.
Given that this is the standard use in the reliable sources, I'd suggest we do the same. One way to do this would be to dispense with the IPA-based phonemic notation I've been using, and instead use a phonemic transcription that is consistent with the usual transcriptions in the standard sources. Along with this, an IPA-based phonetic notation would be included when necessary for clarity, similar to the current use of phonemic vs. phonetic.
Examples of transcription:
Note about "Egyptian Colloquial Arabic":
Suggestions:
There is no consistency in indicating the epenthetic vowel. Examples:
I'd suggest il bint-ĭ di. This follows the majority in using some variant of i, but avoids the problem with capital I, which is that in a sans-serif font (e.g. as is the default in the browser I use, Firefox on Mac OS X), it looks identical to lowercase l.
Tentative conclusion:
The idea of all this is that the primary purpose of the phonemic transcription is to clarify the structure of the language rather than to focus on the phonetic detail.
Example:
fi yóom min záat il-ʔayyáam ɡúḥa-txáaniʔ wayya-mṛáat-u fa ṭaṛaḍít-u mi-l-béet. fa xáṛaɡ zaʕláan wi kan ɡaʕáan ɡíddan wi-mfállis. fa ʕámal ʃaḥḥáat wi fíḍil yilíff-ĭ min ʃáariʕ li ʃáariʕ wi min ḥáaṛa-l ḥáaṛa-w min béet li béet, yíʃḥat wi-yʔúul ‘ḥásana li-lláah, míin yiʃaḥḥát-ni ʔírʃ-ĭ walla lúʔmit ʕéeʃ ʔaṛúdd-ĭ bíi-ha ɡúʕt-i? min yoméen ma kált-ĭ-ʃ wi-mṛáat-i ṭaṛḍáa-ni mi-l-béet. Benwing ( talk) 07:26, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
I-l
problem, use Droid Sans, Tahoma or Segoe UI as your default sans-serif font. --
Mahmudmasri (
talk)
22:01, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
I don't know who wrote this but it's biased and full of lies
Please rewrite it there is no language as Egyptian Arabic ,it's a little ugly accents are not even similar to each other to call it a language. it's just like any other accent ,Saudi Arabic or Lebanese Arabic
I'm Egyptian and what i did read was full of lies. thanks.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.129.30.91 ( talk) 17:31, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
The article is indeed complete nonsense. The title should at least be changed to "Egyptian Colloquial Arabic", or "Egyptian Arabic Dialect".--
173.32.132.6 (
talk)
19:40, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
Most of the article simply based on original research as far as I can see.
Starting from the Phonology section no adequate sources are provided (except for the Consonants which is well referenced by Janet Watson's book). I'm afraid this article will have the same fate of
North Syriac Arabic.--
Rafy
talk
12:07, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
I wonder why isnt there a grammar page for the language specially seeing the great interest in it considering the length of the article. I hope there is a grammer page that would clear things up and at the same time, not crowd the article here. -- MasriDefend ( talk) 23:02, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
I will give the editors of "Egyptian Arabic" one month to explain what "Egyptian arabic" is and use reliable sources to proof it, then I will start by first editing the name of the article and then use more verified content.
Wikipedia should be based on scientific facts built upon reliable and verified sources. Not wishful thinkings or legends used within minorities of diffrent religions and ethnicities. The arabic language is one language, then there is diffrent accents. Also the constitution of respective country should be put in consideration. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kamah12aa ( talk • contribs) 21:29, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
To make it easier for you to understand, when an Irish person speaks English, he isn't creating a new language, he is speaking in English in a different accent
This is the same for Egyptian people, they speak Arabic with their own Accent.
This article is full of incorrect information. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
2.49.92.64 (
talk)
10:25, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
I am very surprised for not mentioning a very common and used plural suffix "-at" for things and "-een" for human and "-ean" for two things. ex: sittat, mudarseen(teachers(fem and male)), mudarsean(two teachers (fem and male)). Is there something I am not aware of, arent they for plural too? -- MasriDefend ( talk) 01:07, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
Currently the article is repeatedly attacked by Uishaki who repeatedly changes scientific terms into politicized imprecise terms as the primary namings. [1] [2] [3]. See also WP:Edit-war, dialect, language, a language is a dialect with an army and navy, varieties of Arabic. I don't think Wikipedia should be a place where I have to explain what are the differences between a dialect and a language and when to use each. Currently, the article is precise and factual; each naming is cited at least in one source. The section Namings has all the names for Egyptian Arabic. Censoring the namings for " political reasons" is meaningless. -- Mahmudmasri ( talk) 17:30, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
The normal position for these in Coptic is before the noun. Pamour ( talk) 21:20, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
Hi, this article is very interesting, but I do have something to say about the grammar section. First, it is very long and completely dominates the article. Second (and more importantly), it is a little esoteric and probably completely incomprehensible to those unfamiliar with Arabic. Couldn't we cut out the grammar section and move it to a new page called Egyptian Arabic grammar? We can work out the information there and provide proper explanation, while we keep a less detailed section on EA grammar in this article. Steinbach ( talk) 10:21, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 15:16, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
The persistent claims that the wildly different varieties of Arabic comprise a single language seem politically based. To say that the differences between standard Arabic and Egyptian Arabic are merely a matter of "accent" strains credulity. Take the simple expression "I didn't give it to them yesterday":
Arabic - lam a`Tiha lahum ams (لم أعطها لهم أمس)
Egyptian - ma-ddet-ha-l-hum-sh imbaariH (ما اديتهالهمش امبارح)
71.175.177.162 ( talk) 18:05, 10 March 2014 (UTC)Mr.Slade
Yes, but that sentence is not Masri. It is standard Arabic. That's the point. Mr.Slade ( talk) 15:31, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
Egyptian Arabic has a very rich vocabulary and of course it's different than Classical Arabic, it has thousands of local ancient and modern Egyptian words, a Coptic based grammar and a totally different way of pronunciation. The only thing that makes Egyptian Arabic understandable among many Arabic-speaking countries is that it's massively widespread thanks to Egyptian movie industry and songs, that's why Masry words like Kalbouz, Safroot, Ah'eeh, Embou, Bes Bes, Toz, Tatta, Zambalek, Nona, Balboos, Kekh, Endegha, Ouz3a, Halfoot, Toot, Yad, Wad, Edeeni, Kokha, Rokhi, Karkar, Bah, Werwer, Bekh, Wahawi ..etc can be understandable for those Arabic-speaking countries while they are not Arabic at all. Not to mention the endless list of modern Masry words and phrases like Fashkh, Ta7n, Tahyees, Antakha, Estabeena, Tarta2, Tennek ,,,,and so on.
Egyptian Premier League ( talk) 07:52, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
I'm sure this may have come up in discussions here before, but in case this happened only a long time ago, or never, I want to say that the only historical and linguistic studies done on the Egyptian language point to coptic rather than Arabic as the original source. Though the vocabulary is predominantly Arabic, everything else isn't. The same how English is strongly influenced by French vocabulary but isn't itself french, nor even romance (french language family). Defining the egyptian as Arabic in WP should at least be balanced with information of how other theories exist regarding its identity. But it is a very problematic POV to suffice with stating that it developed from Quranic Arabic as if this is a fact, especially given that there isn't any evidence to support this remote possibility, While evidence of the other theory actually abound! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 43.224.84.190 ( talk) 06:56, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
Hi,
In the introduction one can read that "While it is primarily a spoken language, the written form is used in novels, plays and poems (vernacular literature), as well as in comics, advertising, some newspapers and transcriptions of popular songs."
However, I cannot find any source in the article regarding the use of Egyptian Arabic in comics, advertising, some newspapers and transcriptions of popular songs. Should this part be removed from the initial summary? Or could sources be added to the article?
Best,
A455bcd9 ( talk) 11:22, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
The Pronoun section suddenly starts to use accented vowels (á & é) in words such as - ʔább & béet. Without any prior usage or definition of these characters. A correspondence table to the IPA indicating what these characters stand for will help with clarity of the article Nausher — Preceding undated comment added 18:52, 15 February 2021 (UTC)