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The article states that Egyptian is spoken as a "Second language" in other Arabic speaking countries. This not true, while most natives speakers of Arabic understand Egyptian, they do not speak it, it does not qualify as a second language the way French qualifies as a second language in the Maghreb or english qualifies as a second language in some European countries. This should be corrected. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.112.128.230 ( talk • contribs)
Today, I had the opportunity to witness a non-native speaker of Egyptian Arabic, who has never been to Egypt, code-switch between Egyptian and Palestinian Arabic in a manner typical of bilingual code-switching. He was clearly speaking Egyptian, contrary to the assertion that "they do not speak it" (albeit with a strong Palestinian accent). Code-switching is also popular among some Yemenite communities who consider Egyptian a prestige variety in a manner roughly corresponding to French in known linguistic contexts. I was reminded of this comment and wondered why it wouldn't apply to these situations? — zɪʔɾɪdəʰ · t 05:35, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
To any Egyptian who fights the fact that Masri is a language, just think for a minute. There you go, what did you think in? Masri not classical Arabic. Try to hold a conversation for 10 minutes in gramatically correct classical Arabic ... Stop already, you know you can't. Now try that in gramatically correct Masri, and yes there is grammar in Masri. Just because it isn't standardized doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Is this sentence gramatically correct:
shoof el bent el Helween dole
No it isn't, so grammar exists.
So what's your mother language? One in which you can talk freely or one in which you can't hold a conversation for 10 minutes?
Now for differentiation, is it different enough to be a language? I don't think there is an objective answer. Serb and Croat are the same but are differentiated by script, same for Urdu and Hindi. Masri and classical Arabic are different in much more fundamental ways, structure, word frequency, case endings, assimilated loan words, etc..
As for the number of loanwords, the list is very long. I saw lists for loans from French and Italian that went for 10 pages of fineprint. There are significant hidden Turkish and Armenian loans, not to mention Coptic. English is making an impact now, but assimilation hasn't matured as for French and Italian.
Masri is a language born from and firmly rooted in Arabic, it currently exists in a state of diglossia with its parent language, but the question needs to be asked now rather than later: Is it in the interest of literacy and literary expression that diglossia continues? Or will we go the way of Greece and relegate classical Arabic to liturgical and historical use?
Karim
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Cloud numbre 7 ( talk • contribs) 12:16, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Well I love all that's been said so far, But I have to ask when you meet another Arab what do you ask him do you ask him do you speak lebanese/morrocan or do you ask him if he speaks Arabic. You say keep religuos issues out of it I've never included it, though you come to Pan-Arabism such a move to call our dialect a language and simply name it "masry" for instance is a blow to that. Though I am not advocating for that since this is not the issue it however shows me how people are becoming too nationalistic and do infact look down on Arabs as being inferior. People in Egypt recently seperate themselves from Arabs we are not Arabs we are different or lebanese we are not Arabs we are phoenicians. Claiming our dialect to be a language seems to me as just one other way of disassociating ourseleves from the rest of Arab world which in itself is a political agenda. Zakaria mohyeldin 00:17, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
أما جريمة دهب فربطت تقارير المخابرات بينها وبين شريط «شيخ المنسر» (رئيس العصابة بالمصري) اسامة بن لادن الذي بثته الجزيرة
I was only referring to modern-day nationalism. It has had a subversive impact on both the Arabic vernaculars, most of which are essentially denied existence, and the non-Arabic languages in the region. I have to principally disagree with the assertion regarding Nobiin. At least from the Nubians' perspective [4] [5], there has been a systematic effort by the government to marginalize their community ever since they were displaced from their historic lands, which is also leading to the loss of their language. — Zerida * 07:22, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I would just like to state that even though I don't agree Egyptian Arabic to be a language I agree with creating a system to save the nubian berber and the coptic languages. Though in the coptic case I think it's too late to try and influence people to start using it again. Nubian however still survives and very strongly so I know that non nubian children who go to school in nubian dominated areas learn to speak it from interaction. And it should be taught at schools in the respective areas, but there is one issue with that as it could lead to segregation between the "kanzi" and the "fadadgy" the two nubian tribes who each have their own language. Berber langauge in siwa should be left up to the siwis I guess they have some autonomy about their affairs I presume though I could be mistaken. Zakaria mohyeldin 07:57, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
(And believe it or not, when I meet a Lebanese/Iraqi/Gulf Arab and start speaking, they usualy look disappointed as they mutter under their breath " Oh you speak Masri ". Their words not mine.
أما جريمة دهب فربطت تقارير المخابرات بينها وبين شريط «شيخ المنسر» (رئيس العصابة بالمصري) اسامة بن لادن الذي بثته الجزيرة)
what's is meant by Egyptian here is the dialect and not a language ; because no1 thinks of Egyptian dialect as a language other than u ! i asked many Arab and non Arab friends who spent most of their lives in Saudi Arabia - they can speak Arabic and understand most of its dialects - i asked if they think it's fair to consider Masri a language ; they all thought this is a joke ! talkin about separatin us from our Arab from our Arab roots isn't a fear or a theory of u Mohyyi it's a fact that i'm afraid people who consider themselves egyptians like us r playin a role in ; but i don't think we accept that such persons relate themselves to Egypt
it's not a big issue what they r sayin about our dialect cause it will always - no matter how hard they try - be their own point ; i guess u have to take a look at what is written in this page about the Arab conquests ( futuh ) ; and how Quran lionized Alexander the Great - or take a look at what they say about Salman al faresi and how far was his influence on our religion and language !
Saving Nubian ; Berber and all other surviving languages of egypt is a responsibility on us egyptian arabs ; these languages r inheritance for all egyptians ; all egyptians have to take care of this cultural and lingual inheritance of egypt ; it's so sad to know that Nubian is strugglin to survive at a time when Nubian young men prefere to speak arabic instead of Nubian the residents of Western Sahara r called Berber ; but the term Berber itself is vague cause Arabs used it to call al the non Arab residents of Norh Africa - the word is supposed to be originally used by Romans to call them as they used to word to call all the non Romans ; but those residents of Western Sahara have no relations with the Amazeegh of Algeria ; even those Amazeegh r not united in language nor origins but they r just collectively called Berbers
i have 1 single Question to English and American people : do u consider old english a separate language from modern english ? the same about French / Spanish / Urdu and all other languages Cloud numbre 7
A Dilemma : people in Senbellawaen villages ( nearby my city el Mansoura ) speak a dialect that's not much different from what u called Saiidi language ; so when i'm talkin with a farmer from Senbellawin in my city we're talkin in 2 different languages yet we clearly understand each other ? for the first time i'm startin to beleive that our dialects variety and richness is usefull ; they will always be a shield protectin us from such ******** that u say
Here is a link to a list of words in the Port Said dialect that according to the site is an amalgam of words from various regional Egyptian dialects. It also contains a list of loanwords from European languages. One would think that coastal dialects like those of Port Said, Alexandria and Rosetta would be prone to having the largest amount of European loanwords.
http://portsaid-online.com/html/pslove/lahga.htm
— Zerida * 20:09, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Dear
Zerida (and everyone esle!)
I don't know about that, but in the "Official status" section, the following is written:
Now I would really like to know, who was behind these "calls"? Any names, any refs.?! Because I just don't know and don't think that such calls really existed! Otherwise I hope I will become acknowledged about them.
Most appreciatively, __
Maysara
21:50, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Osman Sabri's writing is surprisingly frank for its time (1967—ironically, or perhaps aptly, the year of Naksa when many supposed "Arab dreams" were dashed). This is an excerpt:
Egyptian Arabic was created by our fathers and grand-parents... We learned it while we were still young and pronounced in it the first words that left our mouths... we began to love it just like we love our fathers and mothers. We add something new to it everyday, and in doing so we feel that we are perfecting it—we educate it and bring it up as if it were our daughter and we grow to love it like we love our children. Our love for it is twofold: the love for our parents and the love for our children... Egyptian Arabic [is] what I am inviting everyone to write in because it is ours and it is a possession in our hands, we knead it and develop it according to our needs and desires and moods, without obligation to any limits...and I ask all those who object: 'why this hypocrisy or literary cowardice?' and 'why this circling around?' Is it not better and easier that we confront the facts and call things by their name (qtd in Haeri 2003, pp. 143-44).
I think you may conclude that Sabri is calling for a little more than just a simplification of literary Arabic. In fact, he is explicitly against altering the classical register of Arabic to maintain its historical character, and believes switching to Egyptian Arabic is a more reasonable and practical undertaking. But you're right that the statements in the article could use to be reworded.
Also, Haeri interviews el-Hag Madbouli in her 2003 book. He is the owner of the most popular bookstore chain in Cairo as I'm sure you know, and he too had very interesting stuff to say here. He states that books in the vernacular ('ammiyya) are sold out within a short period of being released and are usually in far more demand than books in Standard/Classical Arabic (books in Egyptian are few and far between.) He says there is a "craving for 'ammiyya." When told that many publishers would argue that books in Masri would not sell in, say, the Maghreb or the Arab Gulf, he said it did not matter and added, "We are 65 million in Egypt, as big as the Arab region and we can sell here 3000 copies in Egypt. It is not necessary for it to be related to any other country" (p. 124).
The interviews asking speakers about their attitude toward the classical and vernacular languages are in Haeri's 1996 volume, The Sociolinguistic Market of Cairo. They are on pp. 212 and 205 respectively. Hope this helps. — zɪʔɾɪdəʰ · t 08:15, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
For the following statements:
Citation is most needed, and I think also the name of the Author(s) who proposed these rather complex theories!
Thank you, __
Maysara
22:45, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I like Lewis 'Awad a lot; he too had much to say about the vernacular. As for references, as I already mentioned, Clive Holes [12] (pp. 21-25) describes the situation extensively (and Versteegh [13] on p. 95). Holes does not believe that Egyptian Arabic or any Arabic vernacular is descended from Classical Arabic as is sometimes assumed by native speakers. He shows that extant papyri at the time of the Islamic conquests already shows some of the colloquial characteristics that we generally associate with the vernaculars. Most of the modern Arabic vernaculars are descended from a sort of "Vulgar" Arabic that was introduced by the Muslim armies in the conquered territories, much like the register of Latin that eventually gave rise to the Romance languages. — zɪʔɾɪdəʰ · t 03:27, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
It looks like User:Mamduh is the inventor of the proposed alphabet used in this article, which would be original research, I think. Does anyone know more about it? The linked site isn't working for me. -- Cam 20:23, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone know where the '76 million speakers' statistic comes from? Egypt has a population of over 80 million. It would also be helpful if someone could include the countries outside of Egypt where the dialect is spoken, or what dialects are similar. ####
muslim brotherhood is currently banned by the egyptian government and we are not to judge whether they are good or bad guys, while outlawed is a more judgemental term 84.36.107.14 17:14, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
if you consider the word ban an elevation for the MB, then that means that you are biased against them, and bias is not wikipedia's policy I think, the brotherhood is banned by the egyptian government, and that's evident in egyptian media, in tv, newspapers radio and everything they call it الجماعة المحظورة which I think gets translated into english as "the banned group", they even don't call them الإخوان anymore, just الجماعة المحظورة, and I don't remember ever reading the word الجماعة الخارجة عن القانون which is the translation of "the outlawed group" if you cick on this : [Muslim_Brotherhood] you will get to the MB wikipedia page, press ctrl+f and type "outlaw", you'll get nothing, but if you type "ban" you'll find more than one entry.
plus wikipedia is not to judge people, and since the term "outlawed" indicates absence of civilty as you suggested, it then shouldn't be used, because it's judgemental, while the ban is a legal status, not suggesting neither bad or good descriptions. because ban could be for several reasons specially in a non-democratic country like egypt as you may know,
and please don't use caps nor use terms like "I GOT YA!" because it's uncivilized from a fellow egyptian like you, who's expected to respect the other,
I won't be editing the page again, if you revert the edits, then ok, you hate the MB very much and I can't do anything about it, good luck then :) 84.36.11.63 03:59, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I think that a section should be added on the actual use of Masri versus MSA. This tends to be one of the more confused issues with people often claiming that all written material is in MSA while the situation is more complex. Masri is very heavily used in writing in signs, banners, slogans, and billboards. It probably has a larger share of the poetic scene than MSA, and is almost universally used in personal letters. One other interesting phenomena is that it has become the de-facto language of most bloggers, it is the language of Internet chat, and anyone that posts on a messageboard in MSA is likely to raise eyebrows. There should also be a thorough description of how the oral scene is. The common wisdom is that MSA is used in formal speech, but even there, unless the speech is written in advance and rehearsed people immediately switch into the "intellectual" register of Egyptian Arabic.
If people don't mind I may go ahead and write this section, I am writing about this here first because I am seriously not interested in an edit war so I want the input of pan-Arabists if they have a criticism of the above description. Karim
84.36.8.26 04:37, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
--I can't comment on the first point, because I have no sources. What I know is that Egyptian loan words are more commonly from French, Italian, and Greek than they are from Coptic. But the article talks about grammatical features not loan words. The second point is slightly valid. Saiidi is distinct, Nobiin is not even an Arabic language, but Fellahini is simply a dialect. There is full intellegibility of all Deltoid dialects with very minor variations that are starting to fold and disappear under pressure from Cairene. Same applies to middle Egypt dialects. The population estimate can't be cut to half safely, Saiidis are 20% of the population, Nubians 2%, of the 20% Saiidis many are middle Egyptians and many are second or third generation Cairenes, so the population estimate thing is very complex. I agree with you that this point needs further research though, maybe you can do it :) -- Karkaron 20:22, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
--The phonetic transcription of the arabic text in the Text Example is clearly not matched up with the arabic text. this should be fixed, but i don't speak arabic so i do not volunteer to fix it. -- bjoleniacz 7 March 2007
long vowel /a:/ should be consitantly used and not confused with [ɑː]. The latter is only an allophone of /a:/. Cf. سام /sa:m/ [sæ:m] and صام /ṣa:m/[ṣɑːm].
quote: "Some therefore consider the sound in Egyptian Arabic to be a direct retention from ancient Egyptian or proto-Semitic, or it may be a secondary development from a palatal or palatalized /g/ ([ɟ] or [gʲ]), which is the Sa'idi pronunciation of the consonant south of Cairo in the Sa'id, or Upper Egypt."
Comment: It was simply intorduced when the first Arab tribes settled in Egypt; The Yemeni (gīm-speakers) tribes who came with عمرو بن العاص ‘Amr ibn al-‘Āṣ- settled in al-Gīzah and some other parts. Others, (jīm-speakers), settled in Ṣa‘īd. If we assume that ancient Egyptian was not Arabic (which is true), then how come that the ancient Egyptian phonology would have affected Egyptian Arabic, and only in the realization of a single phoneme? The proto-Semitic hypothesis is valid, but only through a proto-type of the Arabian Peninsular variety of Arabic that was introduced to Egypt during the Islamic conquest. This Semitic effect is seen in present-day Arabic in (at least) three dialects, namely, Aden-Taiz, (some varieties of) Omani and (some varieties of) Egyptian. The "velaric" realization of Jīm is also found in different dialects of Modern South Arabian, e.g. Mehri and Shehri (Jibbali) cf.غيج (man) which is realized dialectally as either [ʁeːɡ] or [ʁeːdʒ].(user: 9abdulla 22:53, 10 April 2007 (UTC))
"4 short vowels: /a/, /i/, /u/ and /ɑ/
6 long vowels: /aː/, /iː/, /uː/, /ɑː/, /eː/"
I don't think that /a/ and /ɑ/ or /a:/ and /ɑ:/ are distinct phonemes. There is virtually no minimal pair coming to my mind except: شعر [ʃɑʕr] hair versus [ʃaʕr] poet, but this may imo be explained with a distinct emphasized "r". It is true however that "ɑ" appears around normally non-emphatic consonandts such as [mɑ:mɑ] "mom" or [ʔɑb] "father" (without suffixes), I would call this "word emphasis". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.57.255.21 ( talk) 16:20, 30 March 2007 (UTC).
I think the "poet" and "hair" example cited above should be changed to شاعرة /ʃaʕɾɑh/ "poetess; feeling (fem.adj.)" and شعرة /ʃɑʕɾɑh/ "single hair". Further examples that can attest the phonemic status of /a/ and /ɑ/ include أب /ʔɑbb/ "father" and قب /ʔabb/ (a verb from which قبقاب is derived). Regarding representing back vowels in notation, I don't think its approrpriate (or even in conformity with IPA) to use the superscript [ˤ] to represent back vowels (or degrees of "backness", known by some as "emphasis in vowels") such as [ɑ] in examples like [ɾˤɑːˤsˤi]. Such diacritics were meant to be only for consonants. But please also note that رأسي "my head" should be transcribed [ɾˤɑʔsi] while رقصي "my dancing" is [ɾˤɑʔsˤi] and راسي "stable; stationed at harbour" is [ɾaːsi]. ( 9abdulla 11:30, 11 April 2007 (UTC))
I'm not an expert in linguistic but what about "assimilation" like in وسط pronounced [wiˤsˤt] (emphasis assimilation) and in فلسطين pronounced [falastin] (non-emphasis assimilation) <-- unsure about this example? How are these explained by emphasis being a characteric of syllabies? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.57.249.54 ( talk) 15:01, 7 April 2007 (UTC).
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The article states that Egyptian is spoken as a "Second language" in other Arabic speaking countries. This not true, while most natives speakers of Arabic understand Egyptian, they do not speak it, it does not qualify as a second language the way French qualifies as a second language in the Maghreb or english qualifies as a second language in some European countries. This should be corrected. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.112.128.230 ( talk • contribs)
Today, I had the opportunity to witness a non-native speaker of Egyptian Arabic, who has never been to Egypt, code-switch between Egyptian and Palestinian Arabic in a manner typical of bilingual code-switching. He was clearly speaking Egyptian, contrary to the assertion that "they do not speak it" (albeit with a strong Palestinian accent). Code-switching is also popular among some Yemenite communities who consider Egyptian a prestige variety in a manner roughly corresponding to French in known linguistic contexts. I was reminded of this comment and wondered why it wouldn't apply to these situations? — zɪʔɾɪdəʰ · t 05:35, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
To any Egyptian who fights the fact that Masri is a language, just think for a minute. There you go, what did you think in? Masri not classical Arabic. Try to hold a conversation for 10 minutes in gramatically correct classical Arabic ... Stop already, you know you can't. Now try that in gramatically correct Masri, and yes there is grammar in Masri. Just because it isn't standardized doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Is this sentence gramatically correct:
shoof el bent el Helween dole
No it isn't, so grammar exists.
So what's your mother language? One in which you can talk freely or one in which you can't hold a conversation for 10 minutes?
Now for differentiation, is it different enough to be a language? I don't think there is an objective answer. Serb and Croat are the same but are differentiated by script, same for Urdu and Hindi. Masri and classical Arabic are different in much more fundamental ways, structure, word frequency, case endings, assimilated loan words, etc..
As for the number of loanwords, the list is very long. I saw lists for loans from French and Italian that went for 10 pages of fineprint. There are significant hidden Turkish and Armenian loans, not to mention Coptic. English is making an impact now, but assimilation hasn't matured as for French and Italian.
Masri is a language born from and firmly rooted in Arabic, it currently exists in a state of diglossia with its parent language, but the question needs to be asked now rather than later: Is it in the interest of literacy and literary expression that diglossia continues? Or will we go the way of Greece and relegate classical Arabic to liturgical and historical use?
Karim
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Cloud numbre 7 ( talk • contribs) 12:16, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Well I love all that's been said so far, But I have to ask when you meet another Arab what do you ask him do you ask him do you speak lebanese/morrocan or do you ask him if he speaks Arabic. You say keep religuos issues out of it I've never included it, though you come to Pan-Arabism such a move to call our dialect a language and simply name it "masry" for instance is a blow to that. Though I am not advocating for that since this is not the issue it however shows me how people are becoming too nationalistic and do infact look down on Arabs as being inferior. People in Egypt recently seperate themselves from Arabs we are not Arabs we are different or lebanese we are not Arabs we are phoenicians. Claiming our dialect to be a language seems to me as just one other way of disassociating ourseleves from the rest of Arab world which in itself is a political agenda. Zakaria mohyeldin 00:17, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
أما جريمة دهب فربطت تقارير المخابرات بينها وبين شريط «شيخ المنسر» (رئيس العصابة بالمصري) اسامة بن لادن الذي بثته الجزيرة
I was only referring to modern-day nationalism. It has had a subversive impact on both the Arabic vernaculars, most of which are essentially denied existence, and the non-Arabic languages in the region. I have to principally disagree with the assertion regarding Nobiin. At least from the Nubians' perspective [4] [5], there has been a systematic effort by the government to marginalize their community ever since they were displaced from their historic lands, which is also leading to the loss of their language. — Zerida * 07:22, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I would just like to state that even though I don't agree Egyptian Arabic to be a language I agree with creating a system to save the nubian berber and the coptic languages. Though in the coptic case I think it's too late to try and influence people to start using it again. Nubian however still survives and very strongly so I know that non nubian children who go to school in nubian dominated areas learn to speak it from interaction. And it should be taught at schools in the respective areas, but there is one issue with that as it could lead to segregation between the "kanzi" and the "fadadgy" the two nubian tribes who each have their own language. Berber langauge in siwa should be left up to the siwis I guess they have some autonomy about their affairs I presume though I could be mistaken. Zakaria mohyeldin 07:57, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
(And believe it or not, when I meet a Lebanese/Iraqi/Gulf Arab and start speaking, they usualy look disappointed as they mutter under their breath " Oh you speak Masri ". Their words not mine.
أما جريمة دهب فربطت تقارير المخابرات بينها وبين شريط «شيخ المنسر» (رئيس العصابة بالمصري) اسامة بن لادن الذي بثته الجزيرة)
what's is meant by Egyptian here is the dialect and not a language ; because no1 thinks of Egyptian dialect as a language other than u ! i asked many Arab and non Arab friends who spent most of their lives in Saudi Arabia - they can speak Arabic and understand most of its dialects - i asked if they think it's fair to consider Masri a language ; they all thought this is a joke ! talkin about separatin us from our Arab from our Arab roots isn't a fear or a theory of u Mohyyi it's a fact that i'm afraid people who consider themselves egyptians like us r playin a role in ; but i don't think we accept that such persons relate themselves to Egypt
it's not a big issue what they r sayin about our dialect cause it will always - no matter how hard they try - be their own point ; i guess u have to take a look at what is written in this page about the Arab conquests ( futuh ) ; and how Quran lionized Alexander the Great - or take a look at what they say about Salman al faresi and how far was his influence on our religion and language !
Saving Nubian ; Berber and all other surviving languages of egypt is a responsibility on us egyptian arabs ; these languages r inheritance for all egyptians ; all egyptians have to take care of this cultural and lingual inheritance of egypt ; it's so sad to know that Nubian is strugglin to survive at a time when Nubian young men prefere to speak arabic instead of Nubian the residents of Western Sahara r called Berber ; but the term Berber itself is vague cause Arabs used it to call al the non Arab residents of Norh Africa - the word is supposed to be originally used by Romans to call them as they used to word to call all the non Romans ; but those residents of Western Sahara have no relations with the Amazeegh of Algeria ; even those Amazeegh r not united in language nor origins but they r just collectively called Berbers
i have 1 single Question to English and American people : do u consider old english a separate language from modern english ? the same about French / Spanish / Urdu and all other languages Cloud numbre 7
A Dilemma : people in Senbellawaen villages ( nearby my city el Mansoura ) speak a dialect that's not much different from what u called Saiidi language ; so when i'm talkin with a farmer from Senbellawin in my city we're talkin in 2 different languages yet we clearly understand each other ? for the first time i'm startin to beleive that our dialects variety and richness is usefull ; they will always be a shield protectin us from such ******** that u say
Here is a link to a list of words in the Port Said dialect that according to the site is an amalgam of words from various regional Egyptian dialects. It also contains a list of loanwords from European languages. One would think that coastal dialects like those of Port Said, Alexandria and Rosetta would be prone to having the largest amount of European loanwords.
http://portsaid-online.com/html/pslove/lahga.htm
— Zerida * 20:09, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Dear
Zerida (and everyone esle!)
I don't know about that, but in the "Official status" section, the following is written:
Now I would really like to know, who was behind these "calls"? Any names, any refs.?! Because I just don't know and don't think that such calls really existed! Otherwise I hope I will become acknowledged about them.
Most appreciatively, __
Maysara
21:50, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Osman Sabri's writing is surprisingly frank for its time (1967—ironically, or perhaps aptly, the year of Naksa when many supposed "Arab dreams" were dashed). This is an excerpt:
Egyptian Arabic was created by our fathers and grand-parents... We learned it while we were still young and pronounced in it the first words that left our mouths... we began to love it just like we love our fathers and mothers. We add something new to it everyday, and in doing so we feel that we are perfecting it—we educate it and bring it up as if it were our daughter and we grow to love it like we love our children. Our love for it is twofold: the love for our parents and the love for our children... Egyptian Arabic [is] what I am inviting everyone to write in because it is ours and it is a possession in our hands, we knead it and develop it according to our needs and desires and moods, without obligation to any limits...and I ask all those who object: 'why this hypocrisy or literary cowardice?' and 'why this circling around?' Is it not better and easier that we confront the facts and call things by their name (qtd in Haeri 2003, pp. 143-44).
I think you may conclude that Sabri is calling for a little more than just a simplification of literary Arabic. In fact, he is explicitly against altering the classical register of Arabic to maintain its historical character, and believes switching to Egyptian Arabic is a more reasonable and practical undertaking. But you're right that the statements in the article could use to be reworded.
Also, Haeri interviews el-Hag Madbouli in her 2003 book. He is the owner of the most popular bookstore chain in Cairo as I'm sure you know, and he too had very interesting stuff to say here. He states that books in the vernacular ('ammiyya) are sold out within a short period of being released and are usually in far more demand than books in Standard/Classical Arabic (books in Egyptian are few and far between.) He says there is a "craving for 'ammiyya." When told that many publishers would argue that books in Masri would not sell in, say, the Maghreb or the Arab Gulf, he said it did not matter and added, "We are 65 million in Egypt, as big as the Arab region and we can sell here 3000 copies in Egypt. It is not necessary for it to be related to any other country" (p. 124).
The interviews asking speakers about their attitude toward the classical and vernacular languages are in Haeri's 1996 volume, The Sociolinguistic Market of Cairo. They are on pp. 212 and 205 respectively. Hope this helps. — zɪʔɾɪdəʰ · t 08:15, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
For the following statements:
Citation is most needed, and I think also the name of the Author(s) who proposed these rather complex theories!
Thank you, __
Maysara
22:45, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I like Lewis 'Awad a lot; he too had much to say about the vernacular. As for references, as I already mentioned, Clive Holes [12] (pp. 21-25) describes the situation extensively (and Versteegh [13] on p. 95). Holes does not believe that Egyptian Arabic or any Arabic vernacular is descended from Classical Arabic as is sometimes assumed by native speakers. He shows that extant papyri at the time of the Islamic conquests already shows some of the colloquial characteristics that we generally associate with the vernaculars. Most of the modern Arabic vernaculars are descended from a sort of "Vulgar" Arabic that was introduced by the Muslim armies in the conquered territories, much like the register of Latin that eventually gave rise to the Romance languages. — zɪʔɾɪdəʰ · t 03:27, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
It looks like User:Mamduh is the inventor of the proposed alphabet used in this article, which would be original research, I think. Does anyone know more about it? The linked site isn't working for me. -- Cam 20:23, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone know where the '76 million speakers' statistic comes from? Egypt has a population of over 80 million. It would also be helpful if someone could include the countries outside of Egypt where the dialect is spoken, or what dialects are similar. ####
muslim brotherhood is currently banned by the egyptian government and we are not to judge whether they are good or bad guys, while outlawed is a more judgemental term 84.36.107.14 17:14, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
if you consider the word ban an elevation for the MB, then that means that you are biased against them, and bias is not wikipedia's policy I think, the brotherhood is banned by the egyptian government, and that's evident in egyptian media, in tv, newspapers radio and everything they call it الجماعة المحظورة which I think gets translated into english as "the banned group", they even don't call them الإخوان anymore, just الجماعة المحظورة, and I don't remember ever reading the word الجماعة الخارجة عن القانون which is the translation of "the outlawed group" if you cick on this : [Muslim_Brotherhood] you will get to the MB wikipedia page, press ctrl+f and type "outlaw", you'll get nothing, but if you type "ban" you'll find more than one entry.
plus wikipedia is not to judge people, and since the term "outlawed" indicates absence of civilty as you suggested, it then shouldn't be used, because it's judgemental, while the ban is a legal status, not suggesting neither bad or good descriptions. because ban could be for several reasons specially in a non-democratic country like egypt as you may know,
and please don't use caps nor use terms like "I GOT YA!" because it's uncivilized from a fellow egyptian like you, who's expected to respect the other,
I won't be editing the page again, if you revert the edits, then ok, you hate the MB very much and I can't do anything about it, good luck then :) 84.36.11.63 03:59, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I think that a section should be added on the actual use of Masri versus MSA. This tends to be one of the more confused issues with people often claiming that all written material is in MSA while the situation is more complex. Masri is very heavily used in writing in signs, banners, slogans, and billboards. It probably has a larger share of the poetic scene than MSA, and is almost universally used in personal letters. One other interesting phenomena is that it has become the de-facto language of most bloggers, it is the language of Internet chat, and anyone that posts on a messageboard in MSA is likely to raise eyebrows. There should also be a thorough description of how the oral scene is. The common wisdom is that MSA is used in formal speech, but even there, unless the speech is written in advance and rehearsed people immediately switch into the "intellectual" register of Egyptian Arabic.
If people don't mind I may go ahead and write this section, I am writing about this here first because I am seriously not interested in an edit war so I want the input of pan-Arabists if they have a criticism of the above description. Karim
84.36.8.26 04:37, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
--I can't comment on the first point, because I have no sources. What I know is that Egyptian loan words are more commonly from French, Italian, and Greek than they are from Coptic. But the article talks about grammatical features not loan words. The second point is slightly valid. Saiidi is distinct, Nobiin is not even an Arabic language, but Fellahini is simply a dialect. There is full intellegibility of all Deltoid dialects with very minor variations that are starting to fold and disappear under pressure from Cairene. Same applies to middle Egypt dialects. The population estimate can't be cut to half safely, Saiidis are 20% of the population, Nubians 2%, of the 20% Saiidis many are middle Egyptians and many are second or third generation Cairenes, so the population estimate thing is very complex. I agree with you that this point needs further research though, maybe you can do it :) -- Karkaron 20:22, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
--The phonetic transcription of the arabic text in the Text Example is clearly not matched up with the arabic text. this should be fixed, but i don't speak arabic so i do not volunteer to fix it. -- bjoleniacz 7 March 2007
long vowel /a:/ should be consitantly used and not confused with [ɑː]. The latter is only an allophone of /a:/. Cf. سام /sa:m/ [sæ:m] and صام /ṣa:m/[ṣɑːm].
quote: "Some therefore consider the sound in Egyptian Arabic to be a direct retention from ancient Egyptian or proto-Semitic, or it may be a secondary development from a palatal or palatalized /g/ ([ɟ] or [gʲ]), which is the Sa'idi pronunciation of the consonant south of Cairo in the Sa'id, or Upper Egypt."
Comment: It was simply intorduced when the first Arab tribes settled in Egypt; The Yemeni (gīm-speakers) tribes who came with عمرو بن العاص ‘Amr ibn al-‘Āṣ- settled in al-Gīzah and some other parts. Others, (jīm-speakers), settled in Ṣa‘īd. If we assume that ancient Egyptian was not Arabic (which is true), then how come that the ancient Egyptian phonology would have affected Egyptian Arabic, and only in the realization of a single phoneme? The proto-Semitic hypothesis is valid, but only through a proto-type of the Arabian Peninsular variety of Arabic that was introduced to Egypt during the Islamic conquest. This Semitic effect is seen in present-day Arabic in (at least) three dialects, namely, Aden-Taiz, (some varieties of) Omani and (some varieties of) Egyptian. The "velaric" realization of Jīm is also found in different dialects of Modern South Arabian, e.g. Mehri and Shehri (Jibbali) cf.غيج (man) which is realized dialectally as either [ʁeːɡ] or [ʁeːdʒ].(user: 9abdulla 22:53, 10 April 2007 (UTC))
"4 short vowels: /a/, /i/, /u/ and /ɑ/
6 long vowels: /aː/, /iː/, /uː/, /ɑː/, /eː/"
I don't think that /a/ and /ɑ/ or /a:/ and /ɑ:/ are distinct phonemes. There is virtually no minimal pair coming to my mind except: شعر [ʃɑʕr] hair versus [ʃaʕr] poet, but this may imo be explained with a distinct emphasized "r". It is true however that "ɑ" appears around normally non-emphatic consonandts such as [mɑ:mɑ] "mom" or [ʔɑb] "father" (without suffixes), I would call this "word emphasis". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.57.255.21 ( talk) 16:20, 30 March 2007 (UTC).
I think the "poet" and "hair" example cited above should be changed to شاعرة /ʃaʕɾɑh/ "poetess; feeling (fem.adj.)" and شعرة /ʃɑʕɾɑh/ "single hair". Further examples that can attest the phonemic status of /a/ and /ɑ/ include أب /ʔɑbb/ "father" and قب /ʔabb/ (a verb from which قبقاب is derived). Regarding representing back vowels in notation, I don't think its approrpriate (or even in conformity with IPA) to use the superscript [ˤ] to represent back vowels (or degrees of "backness", known by some as "emphasis in vowels") such as [ɑ] in examples like [ɾˤɑːˤsˤi]. Such diacritics were meant to be only for consonants. But please also note that رأسي "my head" should be transcribed [ɾˤɑʔsi] while رقصي "my dancing" is [ɾˤɑʔsˤi] and راسي "stable; stationed at harbour" is [ɾaːsi]. ( 9abdulla 11:30, 11 April 2007 (UTC))
I'm not an expert in linguistic but what about "assimilation" like in وسط pronounced [wiˤsˤt] (emphasis assimilation) and in فلسطين pronounced [falastin] (non-emphasis assimilation) <-- unsure about this example? How are these explained by emphasis being a characteric of syllabies? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.57.249.54 ( talk) 15:01, 7 April 2007 (UTC).