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mostly the ladino minority supporting FRG is just not true. There is huge support in provinces like Quietzaltenango amongst the indigenous population; I would say quite the opposite is actually the case. The constitional ban is for all presidents, I thought, and certainly not just for dictators. I think it is Mayans not Mayas in English How certain are we the CIA backed the 1982 coup? Cos if we aren't 100% sure the sentence needs rewording. Changed fear to terror scorched earth time. I wonder who put in the claim that 2600 were killed during the scorched earth time; have changed this to 26, 000 till I can get a reasonable figure. i will be back. -- SqueakBox 00:30, Mar 15, 2005 (UTC)
SqueakBox, you're a brave man, taking on Ríos Montt and Fujimori in the same week... Just one comment: my understanding was that the disqualification from seeking the presidency did only apply to those who had come to power through "breaking the constitutional order" -- dictators and golpistas and the like. Take a look at Art 186 of the constitution here. There's a fair dollop of background chisme here, too, if you're in the mood. Enjoy, –Hajor 03:17, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I dispute that FRG is right wing. I think they see themselves as left-wing, and right-wing is not an adequate description of them.
The riots section was chaos. It was chronologically not in order, and there werte 2 separate pieces about it that were saying exactly the same thing. I have repaired this, and generally got everything in the right order, but I fear it needs a lot more work, especially on the development of the FRG, undoubtedly his greatest achievement.--
SqueakBox 17:07, Mar 15, 2005 (UTC)
The bit about blaming leftist Catholic priests for his election defeat does not fit in with him having lost to a right wing candidate. left it for the moment but any suggestions? --
SqueakBox 22:21, Mar 18, 2005 (UTC)
For the moment I have left the stuff about the civil war post Montt, but, like Plan de Sánchez massacre#National context it is in the wrong place. I think these (all good) materials need moving to an article on the civil war, and have plans to create such an article, which could incorporate a lot of material that doesn't seem to be anywhere, like the peace accords. It is important to differetiate between Montt and the civil war to avoid POV; he wasn't solely responsible. -- SqueakBox 14:33, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)
What is the wikipolicy on articles with accents and such? Since this is the English wikiversion shouldn't we omit the accents in the title and include them in the text (see: Jorge Rafael Videla)?
And there was me thinking 172 maybe knew something about Guatemalan politics. I feel he has just been reverting the work of monthds of editing to his version, with some very traditional western ideas about Guatemala, and an obsession with condemning Rios Montt, centring the article on western ideas about him. I fel very angry that my edits have just been reverted with no attempt at justification, other than an insinuation that I don't understand Guatemalan politics, and my name stuck on an edit summary. How long have you spent in Guatemala? I do not appreciate 172 just reverting to a very old version of his, as if none of my edits have any importance. I also feel the version I have reverted to is a great deal more neutral and balanced than 172's. my only otherr option would have been to edit sentence by sentence, removing the repetitions that 172 has reput in and which I had already. For instance Some 200,000 Guatemalans were killed during the conflict, making it Latin America's most violent war in modern history. was followed by was among the bloodiest strongmen in Latin American history. in the next sentence. And I had already got rid of these kind of repetitions. The vast tract about his alleged war crimes dominating the opening had also been removed as inappropriate, POV, and American centred (this is an article about a Chapin). I don't like Rios, but I don't let that affect my editing, whereas I feel 172's dislike of Rios dominates the version I have just reverted, and which I had removed over many edits. He also reverted my piece, which I justified on this page, with him claiming that the majority of Rios supporters are Ladinos, but 172 decided to revert this without explanation. Anyone who knows much about Guatemalan politics knows this is simply not true. it is the campesinos who have been a great block of support for Rios Montt. My sources for this are Guatemalan newspapers, and the election results from Nov 2003, with the strongest support in Quetzaltenango and Huehuetenango, the indigenous strongholds. It may be an unpalatable fact but it doesn't make it less real, SqueakBox 17:31, May 27, 2005 (UTC)
SqueakBox, First, I see no mention of your name in the recent page history, only Trey Stone. To what are you referring? Second, if you disagree with his edits, let's go through them one by one. -- Viajero | Talk 18:12, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
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I dispute the bit about the support being from the ladino majority as exactly the opposite of the truth. He had least support in the ladino heartland (Guatemala City) and the most in the campsesino strongholds of Quetzaltenango and Huehuetenango, ironically amongst those who suffered the most from his earlier slaughters. Even his staunchest adversaries such as El Periodico agree with me on this, and indeed partly opposed the FRG because they saw it as essentially anti big business. as a strong leader capable of restoring order to this turbulent nation is fine, maybe someone else had removed that, i thought I had kept it in as clearly it is true. indeed much content should be in there, and was almost certainly not removed by me, though I did edit substantially the version that 172 has now restored, as if my contributions did not exist, SqueakBox 18:34, May 27, 2005 (UTC)
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Your version:
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Okay, Trey has also been in here changing a lot. It feels between the 2 of them my edits have been destroyed. i will probably rewrite the whole thing now, SqueakBox 18:36, May 27, 2005 (UTC) The focus on counterinsurgency did not come until JFK. J. Parker Stone 04:03, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
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His version:
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His version:
Your version:
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I prefer mine but will leave 172's, SqueakBox 19:11, May 27, 2005 (UTC)
His version:
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I suspect POV but will leave for now, SqueakBox 19:11, May 27, 2005 (UTC)
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I will revert to 172 except opening paragraph and rewite, SqueakBox 18:36, May 27, 2005 (UTC) Was already here. 172 duplicated. I think it better where I put it for chronological reasons, SqueakBox 19:11, May 27, 2005 (UTC)
I have removed the paragraph that 172 duplicated (please take care when editing, I had moved not removed that paragraph but moved it (for chronlogical purposes), and mostly replace my version of the In 1970....until 1977 paragraph as well as reverting the opening paragraph. The opening paragraph may still cause controversy. please source your claim that FRG support is mostly amongst Ladinos, as I would be interested to see any such claims. Also source the claim that it is a right wing government. Many thanks to Viajero for attempting to mediate, and now we have to wait to see what 172 thinks,
SqueakBox 19:07, May 27, 2005 (UTC)
Well lets see what Trey does? I will, anyway, keep my eye more closely on this page. Indeed I only checked out what was happening after seeing my name in 172's edit summary on this talk page in my watchlist. I am happy with the current version without agreeing with every last sentence, which is the nature of collaborative editing, never the easiest thing, but very much a aprt of the challenge of being here, SqueakBox 19:22, May 27, 2005 (UTC)
It appears 172 justt wnats to revert my work without explanation. he only wants to tolerate his version, removing facts and anything that contradicts his POV obsession against Rios Montt. Source his unimpeded rise to power. Source he didn't go to Madrid in 74, etc. use theis page to express your points, don't ignore the hard work being done here, SqueakBox 19:33, May 27, 2005 (UTC)
Pretty poor excuse for the inaccuracies you are putting. Why not revert to the fantasy that there was an election in 2004, one could argue, but I won't, SqueakBox 20:08, May 27, 2005 (UTC)
(put in before last comment (edit conflict):
Do not remove the NPOV notice without satisfying me the article is not NPOV. That you see your reverted version as NPOV is totally irrelevant. I have been updating info that ppears to have been written in 2003, but 172 just reverts, obsessed with his own POV and getting his own way. What you call mistakes in editing (eg duplication amongst others) could just be considered sloppy and lazy editing from someone who seems incredibly angry that anyone has dared to change this article in the last few months, and is determined to impose his POV with a series of edit wars, reverting my edits without reason or justification, and completely ignoring Viajero's attempts at mediation or my attempts at compromise. his snide assumptions that I know nothing about either Wikipeida or Guatemala are a veiled personalk attack, SqueakBox 20:55, May 27, 2005 (UTC) SqueakBox 20:55, May 27, 2005 (UTC)
Telling me to get a grip is just more insults. That you kept reverting a lot of my material is what I have the problem with. You removed the Madrid bit twice, you duplicated a paragraph, you twice falsely put about an imaginary 2004 Presidential election while claiming to know all about Guatemalan subtle politics, you reverted my updates back to text that appeared as if 2003 was still with us, are 4 examples of what I consider your hurried and unthought out reversions. With your mass changing of the article, reverting again and again while adopting an intimidating approach have made me put the NPOV sticker on the article until others can get a look at it. You still haven't made any effort to explain your massive changes. Then you have the cheek to tell me to get a grip. Please can you change your attitude into a less aggressive and rude and arrogant one, SqueakBox 23:58, May 27, 2005 (UTC)
Again, this isn't telling me anything new. Yes, however many times this makes it, I admit to making a few careless mistakes. But we all make mistakes, and there's no reason to still be ranting about them after a day. I stumble across errors in work of mine that has been published all the time-- even when there have been other editors; and that's paper, not Wikipedia, so these mistakes cannot be corrected... Now, rants aside, can you please finally explain the specific problems you have with the text as it stands now? 172 12:21, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
If you had made genuine mistakes I would be sympathetic. I think you were reverting my material without even looking at it, and I have no sympathy for that, SqueakBox 16:03, May 28, 2005 (UTC)
I note you were up in front of the arbcom for exactly the behaviour I am complaining about. I don't have a chip on my shoulder, that is your imagination. I think the opening is way too long, should not be more than 2 paragraphs at the most. Otherwise I am ironing out any problems now that you have slowed down on the edit warring, but it is too American rather Guatemalan centred and still has an anti Montt POV (not entirely your edits by any means), and they don't help create a more NPOV piece, SqueakBox 19:19, May 28, 2005 (UTC)
Will you please leave the NPOV template alone. I am not satisfied the conflict has been resolved. You want both your own version and for it to appear to be NPOV, having your cake and eating it. This kind of offensive behaviour is clearly not new with you, and I don't believe an Rfc is out of the question, given your history, if this behaviour continues, SqueakBox 19:31, May 28, 2005 (UTC)
Here is the current version of the second half of the intro:
It is a little long for my tastes. On the other hand, there is much useful information here. Here is my attempt consolidate it slightly:
I have removed these lines:
Can these be incorporated in the main body of the text or should they been included in the intro? -- Viajero | Talk 19:44, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
Call me craazy is a personal attack. please withdraw it, or I will be unable to engage in any serious debat about rios with you, Viajero, I am happy with your proposed edits. i do not understand your reticence to have the NPOV tag, this is not an aggressive statement. Even you admit there is a conflict. As an ex admin you know full well that saying you are about to leave is no excuse for the way you behave now, SqueakBox 20:19, May 28, 2005 (UTC)
I don't know you, 172, so I wouldn't go so far as to say I dislike you (there is only one editor I dislike at wikipedia). I can also see that you are informed about Guatemala. So these are the main reasons I think the article is POV:
Human-rights groups claim that Ríos Montt, a staunch anticommunist who has had ties to the United States for over five decades (via the Pentagon's School of the Americas), the CIA, presidential administrations, and the evangelical religious right), has been among the bloodiest strongmen in Latin American history. should not be in the second paragraph, or anywhere in the opening: it makes the article American centred and is POV against him: too much anti and not enough pro for NPOV.
Ríos Montt is best known outside Guatemala for heading a military regime (1982–1983) which presided over some of the worst atrocities of Guatemala's 36-year civil war, finally ended with a peace treaty in 1996. The civil war pitted left-wing rebel groups against the army, with huge numbers of Mayan campesinos caught in the crossfire. Some 200,000 Guatemalans were killed during the conflict, making it Latin America's most violent war in modern history.
Some sectors of the indigenous Mayan population suffered greatly under his rule, and it is thought that his government deliberately targeted some of them under the pretext of pursuing guerrillas, a modern expression of racism against the native population. However, many segments of the indigenous population still support Ríos Montt and the FRG, partly explained by his long history of supporting public works projects, offers of free fertilizer in rural areas, and compensation for the Self Defense Civil Patrols (PAC), which were used by the government in their fight against the guerrillas.
I am not happy with which suppressed peasant uprisings and served as armed guards for landowning oligarchs as it seems very POV, quite speculative, and anyway irrelevant, especially in an article that tends to be POV against him (he may deserve to have a POV article against him, but our responsibility os POV).
How about that to be getting on with. Until these issues get resolved, and basically the opening paragraph issues, I want the template to remain please, SqueakBox 22:00, May 28, 2005 (UTC)
Yes, we should mention the army role in repression, but in relation to 82/83 not to 73.
I believe we could present his support in Guatemala in a much better light than the grudging way we do so right now placing the positive bits right at the bottom of the opening, and after having made clear what a monster he is considered. I don't consider this fair treatment. This is not my idea of POV, and I had tried to get all this out of the opening before your return, and still believe that lower down is where the last 3 and a half paragraphs of the opening deserve to be, SqueakBox 01:39, May 29, 2005 (UTC)
Which is why I said lets wait a few days. Two against one signifies a dispute. Your version because you are in the majority, my template to flag a dispute and guide readers to the talk page, they can think about the issue and contribute. i cannot understand your opposition to an NPOV template. As I said before, it seems like you want your cake and eat it too, o sea you want your own way, SqueakBox 05:14, May 30, 2005 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
mostly the ladino minority supporting FRG is just not true. There is huge support in provinces like Quietzaltenango amongst the indigenous population; I would say quite the opposite is actually the case. The constitional ban is for all presidents, I thought, and certainly not just for dictators. I think it is Mayans not Mayas in English How certain are we the CIA backed the 1982 coup? Cos if we aren't 100% sure the sentence needs rewording. Changed fear to terror scorched earth time. I wonder who put in the claim that 2600 were killed during the scorched earth time; have changed this to 26, 000 till I can get a reasonable figure. i will be back. -- SqueakBox 00:30, Mar 15, 2005 (UTC)
SqueakBox, you're a brave man, taking on Ríos Montt and Fujimori in the same week... Just one comment: my understanding was that the disqualification from seeking the presidency did only apply to those who had come to power through "breaking the constitutional order" -- dictators and golpistas and the like. Take a look at Art 186 of the constitution here. There's a fair dollop of background chisme here, too, if you're in the mood. Enjoy, –Hajor 03:17, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I dispute that FRG is right wing. I think they see themselves as left-wing, and right-wing is not an adequate description of them.
The riots section was chaos. It was chronologically not in order, and there werte 2 separate pieces about it that were saying exactly the same thing. I have repaired this, and generally got everything in the right order, but I fear it needs a lot more work, especially on the development of the FRG, undoubtedly his greatest achievement.--
SqueakBox 17:07, Mar 15, 2005 (UTC)
The bit about blaming leftist Catholic priests for his election defeat does not fit in with him having lost to a right wing candidate. left it for the moment but any suggestions? --
SqueakBox 22:21, Mar 18, 2005 (UTC)
For the moment I have left the stuff about the civil war post Montt, but, like Plan de Sánchez massacre#National context it is in the wrong place. I think these (all good) materials need moving to an article on the civil war, and have plans to create such an article, which could incorporate a lot of material that doesn't seem to be anywhere, like the peace accords. It is important to differetiate between Montt and the civil war to avoid POV; he wasn't solely responsible. -- SqueakBox 14:33, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)
What is the wikipolicy on articles with accents and such? Since this is the English wikiversion shouldn't we omit the accents in the title and include them in the text (see: Jorge Rafael Videla)?
And there was me thinking 172 maybe knew something about Guatemalan politics. I feel he has just been reverting the work of monthds of editing to his version, with some very traditional western ideas about Guatemala, and an obsession with condemning Rios Montt, centring the article on western ideas about him. I fel very angry that my edits have just been reverted with no attempt at justification, other than an insinuation that I don't understand Guatemalan politics, and my name stuck on an edit summary. How long have you spent in Guatemala? I do not appreciate 172 just reverting to a very old version of his, as if none of my edits have any importance. I also feel the version I have reverted to is a great deal more neutral and balanced than 172's. my only otherr option would have been to edit sentence by sentence, removing the repetitions that 172 has reput in and which I had already. For instance Some 200,000 Guatemalans were killed during the conflict, making it Latin America's most violent war in modern history. was followed by was among the bloodiest strongmen in Latin American history. in the next sentence. And I had already got rid of these kind of repetitions. The vast tract about his alleged war crimes dominating the opening had also been removed as inappropriate, POV, and American centred (this is an article about a Chapin). I don't like Rios, but I don't let that affect my editing, whereas I feel 172's dislike of Rios dominates the version I have just reverted, and which I had removed over many edits. He also reverted my piece, which I justified on this page, with him claiming that the majority of Rios supporters are Ladinos, but 172 decided to revert this without explanation. Anyone who knows much about Guatemalan politics knows this is simply not true. it is the campesinos who have been a great block of support for Rios Montt. My sources for this are Guatemalan newspapers, and the election results from Nov 2003, with the strongest support in Quetzaltenango and Huehuetenango, the indigenous strongholds. It may be an unpalatable fact but it doesn't make it less real, SqueakBox 17:31, May 27, 2005 (UTC)
SqueakBox, First, I see no mention of your name in the recent page history, only Trey Stone. To what are you referring? Second, if you disagree with his edits, let's go through them one by one. -- Viajero | Talk 18:12, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
His version:
Your version:
Commments
His version:
Your version:
Commments
I dispute the bit about the support being from the ladino majority as exactly the opposite of the truth. He had least support in the ladino heartland (Guatemala City) and the most in the campsesino strongholds of Quetzaltenango and Huehuetenango, ironically amongst those who suffered the most from his earlier slaughters. Even his staunchest adversaries such as El Periodico agree with me on this, and indeed partly opposed the FRG because they saw it as essentially anti big business. as a strong leader capable of restoring order to this turbulent nation is fine, maybe someone else had removed that, i thought I had kept it in as clearly it is true. indeed much content should be in there, and was almost certainly not removed by me, though I did edit substantially the version that 172 has now restored, as if my contributions did not exist, SqueakBox 18:34, May 27, 2005 (UTC)
His version:
Your version:
Commments
Okay, Trey has also been in here changing a lot. It feels between the 2 of them my edits have been destroyed. i will probably rewrite the whole thing now, SqueakBox 18:36, May 27, 2005 (UTC) The focus on counterinsurgency did not come until JFK. J. Parker Stone 04:03, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
His version:
Your version:
Commments
His version:
Your version:
Commments
His version:
Your version:
Commments
I prefer mine but will leave 172's, SqueakBox 19:11, May 27, 2005 (UTC)
His version:
Your version:
Commments
I suspect POV but will leave for now, SqueakBox 19:11, May 27, 2005 (UTC)
His version:
Commments
I will revert to 172 except opening paragraph and rewite, SqueakBox 18:36, May 27, 2005 (UTC) Was already here. 172 duplicated. I think it better where I put it for chronological reasons, SqueakBox 19:11, May 27, 2005 (UTC)
I have removed the paragraph that 172 duplicated (please take care when editing, I had moved not removed that paragraph but moved it (for chronlogical purposes), and mostly replace my version of the In 1970....until 1977 paragraph as well as reverting the opening paragraph. The opening paragraph may still cause controversy. please source your claim that FRG support is mostly amongst Ladinos, as I would be interested to see any such claims. Also source the claim that it is a right wing government. Many thanks to Viajero for attempting to mediate, and now we have to wait to see what 172 thinks,
SqueakBox 19:07, May 27, 2005 (UTC)
Well lets see what Trey does? I will, anyway, keep my eye more closely on this page. Indeed I only checked out what was happening after seeing my name in 172's edit summary on this talk page in my watchlist. I am happy with the current version without agreeing with every last sentence, which is the nature of collaborative editing, never the easiest thing, but very much a aprt of the challenge of being here, SqueakBox 19:22, May 27, 2005 (UTC)
It appears 172 justt wnats to revert my work without explanation. he only wants to tolerate his version, removing facts and anything that contradicts his POV obsession against Rios Montt. Source his unimpeded rise to power. Source he didn't go to Madrid in 74, etc. use theis page to express your points, don't ignore the hard work being done here, SqueakBox 19:33, May 27, 2005 (UTC)
Pretty poor excuse for the inaccuracies you are putting. Why not revert to the fantasy that there was an election in 2004, one could argue, but I won't, SqueakBox 20:08, May 27, 2005 (UTC)
(put in before last comment (edit conflict):
Do not remove the NPOV notice without satisfying me the article is not NPOV. That you see your reverted version as NPOV is totally irrelevant. I have been updating info that ppears to have been written in 2003, but 172 just reverts, obsessed with his own POV and getting his own way. What you call mistakes in editing (eg duplication amongst others) could just be considered sloppy and lazy editing from someone who seems incredibly angry that anyone has dared to change this article in the last few months, and is determined to impose his POV with a series of edit wars, reverting my edits without reason or justification, and completely ignoring Viajero's attempts at mediation or my attempts at compromise. his snide assumptions that I know nothing about either Wikipeida or Guatemala are a veiled personalk attack, SqueakBox 20:55, May 27, 2005 (UTC) SqueakBox 20:55, May 27, 2005 (UTC)
Telling me to get a grip is just more insults. That you kept reverting a lot of my material is what I have the problem with. You removed the Madrid bit twice, you duplicated a paragraph, you twice falsely put about an imaginary 2004 Presidential election while claiming to know all about Guatemalan subtle politics, you reverted my updates back to text that appeared as if 2003 was still with us, are 4 examples of what I consider your hurried and unthought out reversions. With your mass changing of the article, reverting again and again while adopting an intimidating approach have made me put the NPOV sticker on the article until others can get a look at it. You still haven't made any effort to explain your massive changes. Then you have the cheek to tell me to get a grip. Please can you change your attitude into a less aggressive and rude and arrogant one, SqueakBox 23:58, May 27, 2005 (UTC)
Again, this isn't telling me anything new. Yes, however many times this makes it, I admit to making a few careless mistakes. But we all make mistakes, and there's no reason to still be ranting about them after a day. I stumble across errors in work of mine that has been published all the time-- even when there have been other editors; and that's paper, not Wikipedia, so these mistakes cannot be corrected... Now, rants aside, can you please finally explain the specific problems you have with the text as it stands now? 172 12:21, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
If you had made genuine mistakes I would be sympathetic. I think you were reverting my material without even looking at it, and I have no sympathy for that, SqueakBox 16:03, May 28, 2005 (UTC)
I note you were up in front of the arbcom for exactly the behaviour I am complaining about. I don't have a chip on my shoulder, that is your imagination. I think the opening is way too long, should not be more than 2 paragraphs at the most. Otherwise I am ironing out any problems now that you have slowed down on the edit warring, but it is too American rather Guatemalan centred and still has an anti Montt POV (not entirely your edits by any means), and they don't help create a more NPOV piece, SqueakBox 19:19, May 28, 2005 (UTC)
Will you please leave the NPOV template alone. I am not satisfied the conflict has been resolved. You want both your own version and for it to appear to be NPOV, having your cake and eating it. This kind of offensive behaviour is clearly not new with you, and I don't believe an Rfc is out of the question, given your history, if this behaviour continues, SqueakBox 19:31, May 28, 2005 (UTC)
Here is the current version of the second half of the intro:
It is a little long for my tastes. On the other hand, there is much useful information here. Here is my attempt consolidate it slightly:
I have removed these lines:
Can these be incorporated in the main body of the text or should they been included in the intro? -- Viajero | Talk 19:44, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
Call me craazy is a personal attack. please withdraw it, or I will be unable to engage in any serious debat about rios with you, Viajero, I am happy with your proposed edits. i do not understand your reticence to have the NPOV tag, this is not an aggressive statement. Even you admit there is a conflict. As an ex admin you know full well that saying you are about to leave is no excuse for the way you behave now, SqueakBox 20:19, May 28, 2005 (UTC)
I don't know you, 172, so I wouldn't go so far as to say I dislike you (there is only one editor I dislike at wikipedia). I can also see that you are informed about Guatemala. So these are the main reasons I think the article is POV:
Human-rights groups claim that Ríos Montt, a staunch anticommunist who has had ties to the United States for over five decades (via the Pentagon's School of the Americas), the CIA, presidential administrations, and the evangelical religious right), has been among the bloodiest strongmen in Latin American history. should not be in the second paragraph, or anywhere in the opening: it makes the article American centred and is POV against him: too much anti and not enough pro for NPOV.
Ríos Montt is best known outside Guatemala for heading a military regime (1982–1983) which presided over some of the worst atrocities of Guatemala's 36-year civil war, finally ended with a peace treaty in 1996. The civil war pitted left-wing rebel groups against the army, with huge numbers of Mayan campesinos caught in the crossfire. Some 200,000 Guatemalans were killed during the conflict, making it Latin America's most violent war in modern history.
Some sectors of the indigenous Mayan population suffered greatly under his rule, and it is thought that his government deliberately targeted some of them under the pretext of pursuing guerrillas, a modern expression of racism against the native population. However, many segments of the indigenous population still support Ríos Montt and the FRG, partly explained by his long history of supporting public works projects, offers of free fertilizer in rural areas, and compensation for the Self Defense Civil Patrols (PAC), which were used by the government in their fight against the guerrillas.
I am not happy with which suppressed peasant uprisings and served as armed guards for landowning oligarchs as it seems very POV, quite speculative, and anyway irrelevant, especially in an article that tends to be POV against him (he may deserve to have a POV article against him, but our responsibility os POV).
How about that to be getting on with. Until these issues get resolved, and basically the opening paragraph issues, I want the template to remain please, SqueakBox 22:00, May 28, 2005 (UTC)
Yes, we should mention the army role in repression, but in relation to 82/83 not to 73.
I believe we could present his support in Guatemala in a much better light than the grudging way we do so right now placing the positive bits right at the bottom of the opening, and after having made clear what a monster he is considered. I don't consider this fair treatment. This is not my idea of POV, and I had tried to get all this out of the opening before your return, and still believe that lower down is where the last 3 and a half paragraphs of the opening deserve to be, SqueakBox 01:39, May 29, 2005 (UTC)
Which is why I said lets wait a few days. Two against one signifies a dispute. Your version because you are in the majority, my template to flag a dispute and guide readers to the talk page, they can think about the issue and contribute. i cannot understand your opposition to an NPOV template. As I said before, it seems like you want your cake and eat it too, o sea you want your own way, SqueakBox 05:14, May 30, 2005 (UTC)