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From what I have been able to research on the "nigger" version of eenie, meenie, minie, moe, the child's picking poem was referrenced to slave trading. When buying slaves, owners were said to grab and twist a toe, skin or appendage and twist. If the slave verbalized loudly (hollers), it was thought to be an indication that the slave would be a trouble-maker. -- User NoahWard 04:12. 21 March 2008 (UTC)
seems to connect with the commin practice of lopping off a slaves toe as punishment for attempting escape. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.117.96.105 ( talk) 00:12, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
the original "nigger" version is NOT displayed prominently enough in this article. hence really misleading. wikipedia is NOT censored, so put the original to the very top of the article where it belongs!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.22.219.243 ( talk) 00:20, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
As a kid in the UK the only version I ever learned was 'catch a nigger by his toe'. I would appreciate it if editors didnt try to censor in the name of 'isms' as per usual. EEEEEE1 ( talk) 20:54, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
Born in 1972 and growing up in Australia as a 2nd generation Australian of Egyptian background (I have dark skin and was often called nigger) I only heard the "nigger" version. Unfortunately this was the social norm at the time and I used to say this myself! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1.152.110.12 ( talk) 22:53, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
eenie meenie minie moe catch a tigger by the toe if it squeels let it go eenie meanie minie moe — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.232.82.123 ( talk) 08:23, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Eeny meeny miny mo: Sit the baby on the po: When he's done, wipe his bum: Eeny meeny miny mo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.28.150.22 ( talk) 11:20, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
I feel it is misleading to refer to the PC version as the 'current' version as though there is some official version which we should all know. The older version is still around. Surely the 'current' heading is an attempt to manipulate the audience into thinking that this is the version which they ought to use (rather then the version with the awkward word in it). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.187.233.172 ( talk) 21:16, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
This isn't an article about that movie, so I trimmed back a lengthy discussion of the scene. The only reason it's here is the use of the rhyme, so character names, etc., aren't needed - DavidWBrooks 12:32, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Can someone add a citation for the lawsuit? to a newspaper article or something? meanwhile, I'll lexis nexis it.Found it and added link--
Muchosucko
08:19, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
Just how are these two statements consistent with each other? First the author says that it's unlikely to have changed in the comparatively brief time since PCness became fashionable, then s/he claims that it did. These two sentences and the paras that contain them were both contributed by the anon (no other contributions) who started the Eenie Meenie article (since merged). Shouldn't we verify or remove them?
Also, several people (on this talk page, on the Eenie Meenie talk page, myself, my colleagues) agree that the "nigger" version is still the usual one in the UK and Ireland, at least. It seems we could safely say so in the article. — Blotwell 11:56, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm considering changing the British version to
Eeny, meeny, miny, moe Catch a fishy with your' toe If it's nice lick it twice, Eeny, meeny, miny, moe.
As it is the standard version in my area, however I am unsure of it's popularity in other areas. Cardboard boxA 18:55, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Right now, following the additions by an apparently well-informed anonymous IP concerning "nigger" versions printed in the early 1920s, we say both that "The earliest known published versions in the English language date to 1855," and that there are a lack of "tiger" versions in print before 1950. This implies that the 1855 version uses "nigger", or at least doesn't use "tiger". Does anybody know if this is the case? If we don't know for sure, we need to change something. - DavidWBrooks 20:02, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
I grew up near Edinburgh, Scotland in the 1970-1980's and though I had heard the fishy version the most popular version was: Eeny Meeny Miny Moe, Sits a baby on a po, When it's done, Wipe its bum, Eeny Meeny Miny Mo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.18.137.195 ( talk) 17:01, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Ini Miney and Mimi Miney are in a separate case from the clown named Moe. Furthermore, since the clown's full name is given as Larry Curls, it seems clear to me that Larry "Moe" Curls is a Three Stooges reference, not a "eeny meeny miny moe" reference. -- Sertrel ( talk | contribs) 17:55, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Fats Domino's 1956 million-seller "Yes it's Me and I'm in Love Again" includes the following stanza:
Eenie meenie and miney mo Tol' me y' don't want me around no mo' Ooooeey, baby, oooooo-eee Baby don't you let yo dog bite me.
I have come to the conclusion that eeny-meenie-etc. is too popular for us to list all the times it shows up in films/books/TV/etc. - the section is growing *way* out of bounds. I'd like to throw out virtually all of them, keeping only extremely unusual cases (e.g., the character names in Rushdie's novel). Any thoughts? - DavidWBrooks 20:20, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
I do not know if any of this will be useful, but I am going to share it in the discussion area so that the editor may decide if this story or any part of it may be useful in the main article. The use of the word "nigger" is slang for "Negro" and was the common usage at that time.
---
When I was a child in Milwaukee during the fifties, the rhyme we used had two versions. It went like this to eliminate:
[The asterisk (*) represents the beat when the finger is pointed at the next in line.]
*Eney *meany *miney *moe (four count) *Catch a *nigger *by the *toe (four count) *If he *hollers *let him *go (four count) *Out *goes *Y *O *U (five count)
The alternative last line was used to choose:
*I *choose *Y *O *U (five count)
I know the last line does not rhyme properly, but we were kids and did not care. If you check out the mathematics, you will find that the count was a prime number and a prime number is ideal for a choosing rhyme.
Some time during the sixties, I remember changes to the rhyme. The word "tiger" replaced the word "nigger". It would not have made much difference if that were the only change, but more changes made the rhyme more unwieldy. The insertion of the line "my mother says to pick the very best one" before the last line made the total count an even number. Even as children, we realized that did not work as well. However, since we had respect for our mothers, the last line was usually eliminated to make the count an odd number again. Other less successful attempts were made, but since none of them had a prime number count, they never worked as well as the original version, with or without the word substitution.
{Off topic, but perhaps germane; the use of the word "nigger" as a child did not make me a bigot. It was when a Negro discriminated against me that I became aware of racial prejudice.}
During this time of changes, our group decided on "*my *mother *says *to *chose *the *very *best *one, *so *I *choose *you" because it worked better than any of the other choosing rhyme variations with the word "mother" in it. This, unbeknownst to us, was because it has a prime number count. The only thing that made this method of choice random was the direction the chooser went, the choice of the individual to start, the changing number from which the choice was to be made, and the order in which the individuals lined up.
{Further off topic: During the seventies, I learned to use a random number generator to make choices, but by then I was no longer a child. I still have a couple of sets of random number generators consisting of seven dice (four, six, eight, ten (units), ten (decades), twelve, and twenty sided) that use actual numbers instead of dots.}
Bolton in his 1888 work on children's counting rhymes collected about eighteen variants of "Eeny, Meeny, Miny, Mo" (see pages 105-106). Of these, eight are included in Section 1—"Catch a nigger by the toe." Most of these were from the United States, but at least two were from the British Isles. Of these eight, five caught "a nigger by the toe" (No.s 600, 601, 602, 604, & 606); one "a negro by the toe" (No. 603); one "a baby by the toe" (No. 605); and one "a nigger by the thumb" (No. 607). Altogether Bolton collected more than 50 variants of "Enie, Meenie". Bolton states earlier in his book that the "nigger" variant likely originated in the U.S. The use of "tiger by the toe" seems to be an adult adaption of the children's rhyme dating from the mid-20th century as it appears nowhere in Bolton's collection. Hope this helps.
The book mentioned above is public domain, and available on Google Book Search. Link to page 105, which contains the offensive version as well: [1] -- Otto 19:24, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
(Please forgive the spelling)
Eeny Meeny Picka Teeny Goo Gah Gahgah Leeny Otcha Potcha Googa Lotcha Out Goes Y O U
(variation: Otchy Potchy Googa Lotchy)
Is this familiar to ANYONE?
24.188.14.175 ( talk) 05:37, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
The following statements are not supported by actual facts: "As pointed out in The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes, the word "nigger" was common in American folk-lore, but unknown in any English traditional rhyme or proverb. This, combined with evidence of various versions of the rhyme in England that predate the "nigger" version, suggest that the "nigger" version merely became the most popular at some point in the 20th century, probably originating in America."
For instance, the well known American song "Ten Little Indians" was published in the US before 1868—Frank Green published the British version "Ten Little Niggers" in 1869. Also, the only reference found to anything "caught by the toe" in Britian other than "nigger by the toe" was found by Gomme (p. 420) in a schoolgirl's dancing song from Scotland c. 1898 (similar to "hokey-cokey"):
An editor was beginning to put the various national versions into table format. I have reverted the effort because I found it visually very confusing - tables are great for organizing information in which individual pieces of data are relatively small, but not for long stanzas of poetry. - DavidWBrooks ( talk) 13:06, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
Hmm, the article seems to be missing something important: the properties of the rhyme as a random choice generator. Would I be right in assuming that in the normal versions, it's four choices per line? So the british version would pick 16 mod Number of choices?-- Fangz ( talk) 16:31, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
I'm not familiar with the French version shown here. The one I've heard is this:
Ams tram gram
Pic et pic et colégram
Bour et bour et ratatam
Ams tram gram
This is also the one shown in the French version of this article.
Funnyhat ( talk) 21:05, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
The phonetic Mandarin version given isn't very good. I'm not sure what the source is but it isn't proper pinyin. Can we get this in proper pinyin or hanzi, or even an English translation? Pfmiller ( talk) 23:54, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
Hey, I like content just as much as the next guy. Unfortunately, the "Current Versions" section is.. unneeded. Keep in mind that this page already had versions in different languages. I'd go ahead and remove it myself, but I don't like provoking BAWWWWWs. Will some brave soul go ahead and kill it? Aaron ► 07:02, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
I plan to get around to a clean-up of this article: wikifying format (italics are not needed for quotes), putting countries in alphabetical order, and adding in-line references where I can. I will give it a little time for comment here.-- Sabrebd ( talk) 09:00, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
I have to say I agree. I cannot see why some of these are included and with others I simply have no way of judging whether they are derived from the same rhyme. This is not helped by the lack of sources. No doubt if we start deleting verses there will be howls of protest. Perhaps we could archive the ones with no obvious connection and give time for editors to give sources. You are right that something has to be done as this article is very hard to read at the moment.-- Sabrebd ( talk) 08:12, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
Already is one: Counting-out game. They could go on Wikisource-- Sabrebd ( talk) 13:07, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
In this country it is said to be a Jitanjáfora[ [3]]
Ini, ini, maini,mo,
que cheleque palestó,
que jingale, lestingó,
ini, ini, maini mo.
Notice:Can anyone help me with the 'quote copyright format' cause I've forgotten. Book 'Ómnibus de poesía mexicana' Author Gabriel Zaid p.123, etc.
Just give me the dummy and I'll fill it in, please--
207.249.136.254 (
talk) 18:29, 25 May 2009 (UTC)--
207.249.136.254 (
talk)
18:41, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
Many German children rhymes from various regions start with the words "ene mene", see de:Abzählreim. For example:
ene, mene, muh und raus bist du
or:
eene meene mickimaus zog sich mal die hose aus zog sie wieder an und du bist dran — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:DD:3F34:374C:5CEE:B893:577C:1AEF ( talk) 01:00, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
85.178.9.5 ( talk) 17:36, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
I also don't know the one in the article but that one (ene, mene, muh...) is very common and seems to be closer to "eeny, meeny, miny, moe..." 84.57.132.123 ( talk) 23:01, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
The same exists in French. It's a rhyme designed to out players one by one. The words mean nothing particular.
am, stram, gram pic et pic et colégram bourre et bourre et ratatam am, stram, gram —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.45.178.123 ( talk) 17:50, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
I'm 22 and live in New Zealand. The version all my friends and I used was "eeny meenie miney moe, catch a nigger by the toe, if he squeels, let him go, eeny meenie miney moe." I don't think I've ever heard any other version than this. -- 222.155.38.107 ( talk) 12:01, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
Growing up in the midwestern U.S. (1965) I never heard the racist version used. The rhyme was about catching a tiger, and it used "if it hollers, let it go". I now live in South Carolina and have heard children here using the exact same tiger rhyme. I'm offended by the fact (i.e. Southwest Airlines lawsuit) that if anyone says "eeny meeny" now they are thought to be making a racist slur, just because some people know a racist version. Even after hearing about the Southwest Airlines lawsuit and the new taboo being forced on even the innocent version of this rhyme, I still automatically think "eeny meeny" when picking between two things and am apt to say it by accident. I think the taboo should obviously only be on any racist version of the rhyme. Great article about the various versions including the Latin, thanks. -- User:Urthcreature
Another experience, from my grandmother (b. 1889, Hood County, Texas)
My grandmother taught my mother this version: Eeny, meeny, minie, mo. Catch a nigger by the toe. If he hollers make him pay fifty dollars every day. My mother, who grew up in Fort Smith, Arkansas, taught it to her children, and we, who grew up in Oklahoma and Texas, never heard any other version. Our companions all knew it this way too. Texas Star Thrower 12:21, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
I was born in Virginia in 1996, so I can't say much about the history, but the version I learned was "Eeny meeny miny moe, catch a tiger by the toe, if he hollers let him go. My mother says to pick the very best one and you are it." Never heard of the version using the n-word. Maybe because I'm so young? Not sure. Finding these other versions fascinating, though, I never knew its origins. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.62.188.215 ( talk) 06:44, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
I have removed the following from the article, because while it's a choosing rhyme with similar-sounding words in the opening, it's not close enough to "eeny meeny ..." to be here.
Another rhyme popular in India which closely matches the initial couplet in similar-sounding words goes like... अक्कड़ बक्कड़ बाम्बे बो (Akkad Bakkad Bambay Bo)
अस्सी नब्भे पूरे सौ (Assi Nabbe Pooray Sau = 80 90 total 100)
सौ में लगी बिल्ली (Sau mein lagi billi = Buy a cat with 100)
बिल्ली भागी दिल्ली (Billi bhaagi Dilli = The cat ran away to Delhi)
बोले शेख चिल्ली (Bolay Shekh Chilli = The Saint Chilly said...)
खेले डंडा गिल्ली (Khelay Danda Gilli = (They) Play (game called) Danda Gilli)
गिल्ली गई टूट (Gilli gayi toot = The Gilli Broke)
बच्चे गए रूठ (Bachchay Gaye Rooth = The children went cross)
बच्चों को मनाएंगे (Bachchon ko manainge = We'll coerce the kids)
रस मलाई खायेंगे (Ras-Malayi Khainge = They'll eat sweet dish)
रस मलाई अच्छी (Ras-Malayi Achchee = The sweet dish was good)
हमने खायी मच्छी (Hamne Khayi Machchee = We ate fish)
मच्छी में काँटा (Machchee mein kaanta = The fish had a bone)
पड़ेगा ज़ोर से चांटा (Padeyga zor se chhanta = You'll get a slap)
This is usually followed by the last person being either selected for his turn in the game, or slapped.
- DavidWBrooks ( talk) 18:35, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
I was wondering whether the incident involving the unaired taping of Top Gear, and Clarkson saying the supposedly racist version of this rhyme should be covered? Arun Sunner 23:56, 2 May 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arun Sunner ( talk • contribs)
This is the one i learned as a kid
68.117.88.143 ( talk) 06:06, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
John McWhorter in this article states that the rhyme descends from pre-Anglo-Saxon Celtic. It's a neat story, but an origin vastly earlier and contradicted by most of this article. Is the Celtic origin a serious notion that has been presented somewhere? - SimonP ( talk) 18:17, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
The article currently states
However, it also gives an example of a ryhme collected in Cornwall in 1882 which is clearly a variation of the same. This strikes me as very odd. Unfortunately I do not have the Opies' book. Can anyone answer the following questions?
Thanks Thehalfone ( talk) 19:16, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
Then:
-- AlexanderHovanec ( talk) 04:10, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
This article currently has a Finnish rhyme that is sort of like Eenie Meenie but not really very much, as well as "Inky Binky", an English-language children's rhyme that has no connection that I can see except that it's one of many, many kids rhymes with some nonsense syllables.
Including those two implies that they have some connection to Eenie Meenie, which isn't supported.
I would like to remove both of them, leaving a sentence or two saying that there are many similar-sounding poems and rhymes in English and in other languages using nonesense words, but the connection between them and Eenie Meenie is unclear.
Any thoughts? - DavidWBrooks ( talk) 20:02, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
… My mother says to pick this one this very best one and you are I-T it
The article begins with this passage:
""Eeny, meeny, miny, moe"—which can be spelled a number of ways—is a children's counting-out rhyme, used to select a person in games such as tag, or for selecting various other things. It is one of a large group of similar rhymes in which the child who is pointed to by the chanter on the last syllable is chosen."
That is the entirety of any explanation of how the rhyme is used.
The article needs at least a brief explanation of how this rhyme is used to choose among several alternatives: by pointing to each one in turn on each stressed syllable, using a circular order on the alternatives, with the last alternative pointed to becoming the choice.
(So if there are N alternatives numbered 1 through N in order, the final choice will be the one having number 16 mod N, i.e., the remainder when 16 is divided by N. E.g., if N = 5 the choice will be the alternative having the number 1.)
I hope someone knowledgeable about this subject can fix this.
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From what I have been able to research on the "nigger" version of eenie, meenie, minie, moe, the child's picking poem was referrenced to slave trading. When buying slaves, owners were said to grab and twist a toe, skin or appendage and twist. If the slave verbalized loudly (hollers), it was thought to be an indication that the slave would be a trouble-maker. -- User NoahWard 04:12. 21 March 2008 (UTC)
seems to connect with the commin practice of lopping off a slaves toe as punishment for attempting escape. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.117.96.105 ( talk) 00:12, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
the original "nigger" version is NOT displayed prominently enough in this article. hence really misleading. wikipedia is NOT censored, so put the original to the very top of the article where it belongs!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.22.219.243 ( talk) 00:20, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
As a kid in the UK the only version I ever learned was 'catch a nigger by his toe'. I would appreciate it if editors didnt try to censor in the name of 'isms' as per usual. EEEEEE1 ( talk) 20:54, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
Born in 1972 and growing up in Australia as a 2nd generation Australian of Egyptian background (I have dark skin and was often called nigger) I only heard the "nigger" version. Unfortunately this was the social norm at the time and I used to say this myself! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1.152.110.12 ( talk) 22:53, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
eenie meenie minie moe catch a tigger by the toe if it squeels let it go eenie meanie minie moe — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.232.82.123 ( talk) 08:23, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Eeny meeny miny mo: Sit the baby on the po: When he's done, wipe his bum: Eeny meeny miny mo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.28.150.22 ( talk) 11:20, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
I feel it is misleading to refer to the PC version as the 'current' version as though there is some official version which we should all know. The older version is still around. Surely the 'current' heading is an attempt to manipulate the audience into thinking that this is the version which they ought to use (rather then the version with the awkward word in it). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.187.233.172 ( talk) 21:16, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
This isn't an article about that movie, so I trimmed back a lengthy discussion of the scene. The only reason it's here is the use of the rhyme, so character names, etc., aren't needed - DavidWBrooks 12:32, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Can someone add a citation for the lawsuit? to a newspaper article or something? meanwhile, I'll lexis nexis it.Found it and added link--
Muchosucko
08:19, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
Just how are these two statements consistent with each other? First the author says that it's unlikely to have changed in the comparatively brief time since PCness became fashionable, then s/he claims that it did. These two sentences and the paras that contain them were both contributed by the anon (no other contributions) who started the Eenie Meenie article (since merged). Shouldn't we verify or remove them?
Also, several people (on this talk page, on the Eenie Meenie talk page, myself, my colleagues) agree that the "nigger" version is still the usual one in the UK and Ireland, at least. It seems we could safely say so in the article. — Blotwell 11:56, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm considering changing the British version to
Eeny, meeny, miny, moe Catch a fishy with your' toe If it's nice lick it twice, Eeny, meeny, miny, moe.
As it is the standard version in my area, however I am unsure of it's popularity in other areas. Cardboard boxA 18:55, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Right now, following the additions by an apparently well-informed anonymous IP concerning "nigger" versions printed in the early 1920s, we say both that "The earliest known published versions in the English language date to 1855," and that there are a lack of "tiger" versions in print before 1950. This implies that the 1855 version uses "nigger", or at least doesn't use "tiger". Does anybody know if this is the case? If we don't know for sure, we need to change something. - DavidWBrooks 20:02, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
I grew up near Edinburgh, Scotland in the 1970-1980's and though I had heard the fishy version the most popular version was: Eeny Meeny Miny Moe, Sits a baby on a po, When it's done, Wipe its bum, Eeny Meeny Miny Mo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.18.137.195 ( talk) 17:01, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Ini Miney and Mimi Miney are in a separate case from the clown named Moe. Furthermore, since the clown's full name is given as Larry Curls, it seems clear to me that Larry "Moe" Curls is a Three Stooges reference, not a "eeny meeny miny moe" reference. -- Sertrel ( talk | contribs) 17:55, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Fats Domino's 1956 million-seller "Yes it's Me and I'm in Love Again" includes the following stanza:
Eenie meenie and miney mo Tol' me y' don't want me around no mo' Ooooeey, baby, oooooo-eee Baby don't you let yo dog bite me.
I have come to the conclusion that eeny-meenie-etc. is too popular for us to list all the times it shows up in films/books/TV/etc. - the section is growing *way* out of bounds. I'd like to throw out virtually all of them, keeping only extremely unusual cases (e.g., the character names in Rushdie's novel). Any thoughts? - DavidWBrooks 20:20, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
I do not know if any of this will be useful, but I am going to share it in the discussion area so that the editor may decide if this story or any part of it may be useful in the main article. The use of the word "nigger" is slang for "Negro" and was the common usage at that time.
---
When I was a child in Milwaukee during the fifties, the rhyme we used had two versions. It went like this to eliminate:
[The asterisk (*) represents the beat when the finger is pointed at the next in line.]
*Eney *meany *miney *moe (four count) *Catch a *nigger *by the *toe (four count) *If he *hollers *let him *go (four count) *Out *goes *Y *O *U (five count)
The alternative last line was used to choose:
*I *choose *Y *O *U (five count)
I know the last line does not rhyme properly, but we were kids and did not care. If you check out the mathematics, you will find that the count was a prime number and a prime number is ideal for a choosing rhyme.
Some time during the sixties, I remember changes to the rhyme. The word "tiger" replaced the word "nigger". It would not have made much difference if that were the only change, but more changes made the rhyme more unwieldy. The insertion of the line "my mother says to pick the very best one" before the last line made the total count an even number. Even as children, we realized that did not work as well. However, since we had respect for our mothers, the last line was usually eliminated to make the count an odd number again. Other less successful attempts were made, but since none of them had a prime number count, they never worked as well as the original version, with or without the word substitution.
{Off topic, but perhaps germane; the use of the word "nigger" as a child did not make me a bigot. It was when a Negro discriminated against me that I became aware of racial prejudice.}
During this time of changes, our group decided on "*my *mother *says *to *chose *the *very *best *one, *so *I *choose *you" because it worked better than any of the other choosing rhyme variations with the word "mother" in it. This, unbeknownst to us, was because it has a prime number count. The only thing that made this method of choice random was the direction the chooser went, the choice of the individual to start, the changing number from which the choice was to be made, and the order in which the individuals lined up.
{Further off topic: During the seventies, I learned to use a random number generator to make choices, but by then I was no longer a child. I still have a couple of sets of random number generators consisting of seven dice (four, six, eight, ten (units), ten (decades), twelve, and twenty sided) that use actual numbers instead of dots.}
Bolton in his 1888 work on children's counting rhymes collected about eighteen variants of "Eeny, Meeny, Miny, Mo" (see pages 105-106). Of these, eight are included in Section 1—"Catch a nigger by the toe." Most of these were from the United States, but at least two were from the British Isles. Of these eight, five caught "a nigger by the toe" (No.s 600, 601, 602, 604, & 606); one "a negro by the toe" (No. 603); one "a baby by the toe" (No. 605); and one "a nigger by the thumb" (No. 607). Altogether Bolton collected more than 50 variants of "Enie, Meenie". Bolton states earlier in his book that the "nigger" variant likely originated in the U.S. The use of "tiger by the toe" seems to be an adult adaption of the children's rhyme dating from the mid-20th century as it appears nowhere in Bolton's collection. Hope this helps.
The book mentioned above is public domain, and available on Google Book Search. Link to page 105, which contains the offensive version as well: [1] -- Otto 19:24, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
(Please forgive the spelling)
Eeny Meeny Picka Teeny Goo Gah Gahgah Leeny Otcha Potcha Googa Lotcha Out Goes Y O U
(variation: Otchy Potchy Googa Lotchy)
Is this familiar to ANYONE?
24.188.14.175 ( talk) 05:37, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
The following statements are not supported by actual facts: "As pointed out in The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes, the word "nigger" was common in American folk-lore, but unknown in any English traditional rhyme or proverb. This, combined with evidence of various versions of the rhyme in England that predate the "nigger" version, suggest that the "nigger" version merely became the most popular at some point in the 20th century, probably originating in America."
For instance, the well known American song "Ten Little Indians" was published in the US before 1868—Frank Green published the British version "Ten Little Niggers" in 1869. Also, the only reference found to anything "caught by the toe" in Britian other than "nigger by the toe" was found by Gomme (p. 420) in a schoolgirl's dancing song from Scotland c. 1898 (similar to "hokey-cokey"):
An editor was beginning to put the various national versions into table format. I have reverted the effort because I found it visually very confusing - tables are great for organizing information in which individual pieces of data are relatively small, but not for long stanzas of poetry. - DavidWBrooks ( talk) 13:06, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
Hmm, the article seems to be missing something important: the properties of the rhyme as a random choice generator. Would I be right in assuming that in the normal versions, it's four choices per line? So the british version would pick 16 mod Number of choices?-- Fangz ( talk) 16:31, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
I'm not familiar with the French version shown here. The one I've heard is this:
Ams tram gram
Pic et pic et colégram
Bour et bour et ratatam
Ams tram gram
This is also the one shown in the French version of this article.
Funnyhat ( talk) 21:05, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
The phonetic Mandarin version given isn't very good. I'm not sure what the source is but it isn't proper pinyin. Can we get this in proper pinyin or hanzi, or even an English translation? Pfmiller ( talk) 23:54, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
Hey, I like content just as much as the next guy. Unfortunately, the "Current Versions" section is.. unneeded. Keep in mind that this page already had versions in different languages. I'd go ahead and remove it myself, but I don't like provoking BAWWWWWs. Will some brave soul go ahead and kill it? Aaron ► 07:02, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
I plan to get around to a clean-up of this article: wikifying format (italics are not needed for quotes), putting countries in alphabetical order, and adding in-line references where I can. I will give it a little time for comment here.-- Sabrebd ( talk) 09:00, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
I have to say I agree. I cannot see why some of these are included and with others I simply have no way of judging whether they are derived from the same rhyme. This is not helped by the lack of sources. No doubt if we start deleting verses there will be howls of protest. Perhaps we could archive the ones with no obvious connection and give time for editors to give sources. You are right that something has to be done as this article is very hard to read at the moment.-- Sabrebd ( talk) 08:12, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
Already is one: Counting-out game. They could go on Wikisource-- Sabrebd ( talk) 13:07, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
In this country it is said to be a Jitanjáfora[ [3]]
Ini, ini, maini,mo,
que cheleque palestó,
que jingale, lestingó,
ini, ini, maini mo.
Notice:Can anyone help me with the 'quote copyright format' cause I've forgotten. Book 'Ómnibus de poesía mexicana' Author Gabriel Zaid p.123, etc.
Just give me the dummy and I'll fill it in, please--
207.249.136.254 (
talk) 18:29, 25 May 2009 (UTC)--
207.249.136.254 (
talk)
18:41, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
Many German children rhymes from various regions start with the words "ene mene", see de:Abzählreim. For example:
ene, mene, muh und raus bist du
or:
eene meene mickimaus zog sich mal die hose aus zog sie wieder an und du bist dran — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:DD:3F34:374C:5CEE:B893:577C:1AEF ( talk) 01:00, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
85.178.9.5 ( talk) 17:36, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
I also don't know the one in the article but that one (ene, mene, muh...) is very common and seems to be closer to "eeny, meeny, miny, moe..." 84.57.132.123 ( talk) 23:01, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
The same exists in French. It's a rhyme designed to out players one by one. The words mean nothing particular.
am, stram, gram pic et pic et colégram bourre et bourre et ratatam am, stram, gram —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.45.178.123 ( talk) 17:50, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
I'm 22 and live in New Zealand. The version all my friends and I used was "eeny meenie miney moe, catch a nigger by the toe, if he squeels, let him go, eeny meenie miney moe." I don't think I've ever heard any other version than this. -- 222.155.38.107 ( talk) 12:01, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
Growing up in the midwestern U.S. (1965) I never heard the racist version used. The rhyme was about catching a tiger, and it used "if it hollers, let it go". I now live in South Carolina and have heard children here using the exact same tiger rhyme. I'm offended by the fact (i.e. Southwest Airlines lawsuit) that if anyone says "eeny meeny" now they are thought to be making a racist slur, just because some people know a racist version. Even after hearing about the Southwest Airlines lawsuit and the new taboo being forced on even the innocent version of this rhyme, I still automatically think "eeny meeny" when picking between two things and am apt to say it by accident. I think the taboo should obviously only be on any racist version of the rhyme. Great article about the various versions including the Latin, thanks. -- User:Urthcreature
Another experience, from my grandmother (b. 1889, Hood County, Texas)
My grandmother taught my mother this version: Eeny, meeny, minie, mo. Catch a nigger by the toe. If he hollers make him pay fifty dollars every day. My mother, who grew up in Fort Smith, Arkansas, taught it to her children, and we, who grew up in Oklahoma and Texas, never heard any other version. Our companions all knew it this way too. Texas Star Thrower 12:21, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
I was born in Virginia in 1996, so I can't say much about the history, but the version I learned was "Eeny meeny miny moe, catch a tiger by the toe, if he hollers let him go. My mother says to pick the very best one and you are it." Never heard of the version using the n-word. Maybe because I'm so young? Not sure. Finding these other versions fascinating, though, I never knew its origins. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.62.188.215 ( talk) 06:44, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
I have removed the following from the article, because while it's a choosing rhyme with similar-sounding words in the opening, it's not close enough to "eeny meeny ..." to be here.
Another rhyme popular in India which closely matches the initial couplet in similar-sounding words goes like... अक्कड़ बक्कड़ बाम्बे बो (Akkad Bakkad Bambay Bo)
अस्सी नब्भे पूरे सौ (Assi Nabbe Pooray Sau = 80 90 total 100)
सौ में लगी बिल्ली (Sau mein lagi billi = Buy a cat with 100)
बिल्ली भागी दिल्ली (Billi bhaagi Dilli = The cat ran away to Delhi)
बोले शेख चिल्ली (Bolay Shekh Chilli = The Saint Chilly said...)
खेले डंडा गिल्ली (Khelay Danda Gilli = (They) Play (game called) Danda Gilli)
गिल्ली गई टूट (Gilli gayi toot = The Gilli Broke)
बच्चे गए रूठ (Bachchay Gaye Rooth = The children went cross)
बच्चों को मनाएंगे (Bachchon ko manainge = We'll coerce the kids)
रस मलाई खायेंगे (Ras-Malayi Khainge = They'll eat sweet dish)
रस मलाई अच्छी (Ras-Malayi Achchee = The sweet dish was good)
हमने खायी मच्छी (Hamne Khayi Machchee = We ate fish)
मच्छी में काँटा (Machchee mein kaanta = The fish had a bone)
पड़ेगा ज़ोर से चांटा (Padeyga zor se chhanta = You'll get a slap)
This is usually followed by the last person being either selected for his turn in the game, or slapped.
- DavidWBrooks ( talk) 18:35, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
I was wondering whether the incident involving the unaired taping of Top Gear, and Clarkson saying the supposedly racist version of this rhyme should be covered? Arun Sunner 23:56, 2 May 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arun Sunner ( talk • contribs)
This is the one i learned as a kid
68.117.88.143 ( talk) 06:06, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
John McWhorter in this article states that the rhyme descends from pre-Anglo-Saxon Celtic. It's a neat story, but an origin vastly earlier and contradicted by most of this article. Is the Celtic origin a serious notion that has been presented somewhere? - SimonP ( talk) 18:17, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
The article currently states
However, it also gives an example of a ryhme collected in Cornwall in 1882 which is clearly a variation of the same. This strikes me as very odd. Unfortunately I do not have the Opies' book. Can anyone answer the following questions?
Thanks Thehalfone ( talk) 19:16, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
Then:
-- AlexanderHovanec ( talk) 04:10, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
This article currently has a Finnish rhyme that is sort of like Eenie Meenie but not really very much, as well as "Inky Binky", an English-language children's rhyme that has no connection that I can see except that it's one of many, many kids rhymes with some nonsense syllables.
Including those two implies that they have some connection to Eenie Meenie, which isn't supported.
I would like to remove both of them, leaving a sentence or two saying that there are many similar-sounding poems and rhymes in English and in other languages using nonesense words, but the connection between them and Eenie Meenie is unclear.
Any thoughts? - DavidWBrooks ( talk) 20:02, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
… My mother says to pick this one this very best one and you are I-T it
The article begins with this passage:
""Eeny, meeny, miny, moe"—which can be spelled a number of ways—is a children's counting-out rhyme, used to select a person in games such as tag, or for selecting various other things. It is one of a large group of similar rhymes in which the child who is pointed to by the chanter on the last syllable is chosen."
That is the entirety of any explanation of how the rhyme is used.
The article needs at least a brief explanation of how this rhyme is used to choose among several alternatives: by pointing to each one in turn on each stressed syllable, using a circular order on the alternatives, with the last alternative pointed to becoming the choice.
(So if there are N alternatives numbered 1 through N in order, the final choice will be the one having number 16 mod N, i.e., the remainder when 16 is divided by N. E.g., if N = 5 the choice will be the alternative having the number 1.)
I hope someone knowledgeable about this subject can fix this.