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If someone disputes the neutrality of this article please state your reasons here before adding a POV tag. -- Milicz 01:39, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
I guess I came across this looking at Rahm Emanuel article, but it was so horrendously filled with Unsourced libelous and negative comments - not to mention all the stuff about how great the last leader of the group was (totally irrelevant) - that my WikiHat just popped up and I had to clean it up. Per WP:BLP I can and will revert back to that format repeatedly. If you have negative info about Mr. M. you want to share, fine. Just make sure it comes from a WP:Reliable source (Click link for info), preferably some news article linked on the internet. Two or three sentences on his predecessor might be appropriate, but that's about it. Just search Mr. M's name on a search engine and you'll probably find lots of news stories. Private web sites saying nasty things about him don't count ;-) CarolMooreDC ( talk) 01:35, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
You know instead of deleting entire sections and claiming libel you might actually want to edit this article, if not then stay out. Plenty was written about these issues in the Tribune, Sun Times and other articles, if you're unhappy with the article fix it, don't white wash it. -- Milicz ( talk) 05:29, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
1 week from today I plan to come back and restore the removal of the unsourced content. If any editor cares enough about the article to source it, remove the OR an PoV, I will certainly respect their work, of course. But this article is a mess, and has been flagged as requiring improvement since 2007. I don't think a week is going to help. sinneed ( talk) 19:56, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
I have added the totallydisputed flag to the article. I leave the others, because their dates are earlier, and I feel that record should not be lost. Much of this is OR, some if PoV and OR, some could be sourced, but the sources will require careful handling, as they conflict. Research is hampered because so very many sites took this article as valid and have copied it, cited it, and quoted it... and that was a mistake. I caution any editor to be very wary of many sources that will pop up on a quick search. That said, while http://www.searchgleaner.com/cloud/index.php?words=Edward+Moskal contains a copy of this (or this is a copy of it, which seems unlikely), it does have a rich list of possible sources an interested editor might study and possibly find useful. sinneed ( talk) 19:49, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
1st, the citation must actually support the words to which it is attached. If it does not, this is A Very Bad Thing.
2nd, the citations need some kind of description of why they are there. with the cite web tool, that would be a "title=" item usually. With simple inline refs, just put a space after the URL and say what it is
3rd, the External links each need a note added to them, either after the URL or just after the closing ], explaining what it is.
sinneed ( talk) 06:01, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
I added descriptions to those sites I could, and notes for the others. A number of these citations fail wp:EL... no fee sites, no sites requiring registration. The ones for papers that have enough information can be turned into print citations.
There was one anti-Israel/anti-Judaism site (holywar dot org) that I simply removed because the wp:EL failure was egregious as I interpret it. sinneed ( talk) 19:31, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
A possible source for some of the offensive quotes: http://www.reason.com/news/show/28616.html. I don't know them but possibly an RS? sinneed ( talk) 03:42, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
As it reads now, it looks like Moskal was objecting to Moskal? I think something got confused here perhaps? Collect ( talk) 01:27, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
I saw that, but I don't know if I broke it or if it was already broken. I expect to fix it if I ever find a source... or kill it if I can't. If I broke it, I am sorry. :)
Nope, I broke it... some members objected, and the president said he could wine and dine whomever he chose. sinneed ( talk) 02:03, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
I light-heartedly hope the new structure will lend itself to both expanding and tightening this article. I think this was an important and controversial figure, and deserves a better article. I don't plan to get into the anti-Semiticism, as I have no desire to have an edit war. I want to focus on his life, the PNA and the PAC. The PAC an PNA articles are both also weak, so I think I can expand all 3.
Any suggestions? Heh, or of course, wp:Be Bold. :)
sinneed ( talk) 02:10, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
Leaving them here for easy restoral. sinneed ( talk) 05:30, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
Moskal was named national treasurer of the Polish National Alliance in 1967. He left the position when he was elected PNA's president in 1988, following after Alojzy Mazewski. He was re-elected in 2003. He was also elected as President of the Polish American Congress, an umbrella organization of 1,200 Polish-American fraternal, veteran and cultural groups, in 1988 and served in that office until his death.
During his term as President her computerized operations, completed the initiation of broadcasting by radio station WPNA (1490 AM) in the Chicago area and included banking institutions under the name of Alliance FSB with branches in Niles and Chicago, Illinois. During this period smaller Polish American fraternal groups merged with the PNA, which had become the largest ethnic fraternal organization in the United States.
Poland's President Lech Wałęsa awarded Moskal the second highest civilian honor of the Republic of Poland, the Commander's Cross with Star. He was also made an honorary citizen of the city of Kraków, Poland. The title of Honorary Doctor was bestowed upon him by the University of Poznań Medical School in 1997. His 60-plus-year career with PNA led him to a private meeting with Pope John Paul II, several humanitarian-related trips to Poland, and an appointment by United States President Bill Clinton to accompany Vice President Al Gore at the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising anniversary ceremonies in Warsaw.
...or that required a user id. Since most of these were to paid-access newspaper archives, the citation should have gone to the paper articles. sinneed ( talk) 21:23, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
I cut:
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-79636975.html This is a fee site, please remove.]
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-79636975.html This is a fee site, please remove.]
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4155/is_20050323/ai_n13465475 Dead link]
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-8350810_ITM Requires a user id, please remove.]
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-8350810_ITM Requires a user id, please remove.]
http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=CSTB&p_theme=cstb&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=109143F25A4B36A2&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM This is a fee site, please remove.]
http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=ADHB&p_theme=adhb&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0ED0275A64405CE8&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM This is a fee site, please remove.]
These were originally inserted with no titles or descriptions. I added the problems when I went to fact-check them. sinneed ( talk) 02:42, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
CarolMooredc, Wikipedia is meant to be encyclopedic, what you have done is reduce the article to nothing. Don't be fooled Sinneed, this is a POV pusher who has effectively removed most of the true and widely written about aspects about Moskal out of the article, they are subjectively negative, Moskal saw them as positive. Moskal was quoted in Wprost magazine saying in 1998: "Jeśli ktoś nazywa mnie antysemitą, noszę tę etykietkę z dumą", translated: "When someone calls me an antisemite I wear that charge as a badge of honor". [1] So to Moskal himself, what CarolMoore is stating is a Negative POV was actually a badge of honor for this man, he didn't hide from it because he believed in what he preached and didn't care that it was making him a political pariah. Then to state that maybe this man was possibly not notable is a joke in itself. CarolMoore's threats clearly show that she has a need to keep facts hidden, maybe she's a family member embarrassed by what this man stood for, but Wikipedia should be objective, the current article is not.-- Milicz ( talk) 20:51, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
Ok, since I made changes without noticing all the work that had been done, I reverted back to the version just before all the fee refs were removed and then updated subsequent smaller changes. I might take a look for any other highly questionable unsourced info that should be deleted if not quickly sourced. Just remember the rule is that unsourced info can be removed and that poorly sourced info (like fee sites) can be easily challenged. So the person should try to clean those up per above, ie with better descriptions of article and actual quotes from article.
This rule I also found today here that I think applies since if you have to pay to read it, it makes it more difficult to read and therefore much more challengeable, as you saw it was challenged and removed: Wikipedia:Citing_sources#Links_and_ID_numbers If your source is not findable online, it should be findable in reputable libraries, archives, or collections. If a citation without an external link is challenged as unfindable, any of the following is sufficient to show the material to be reasonably findable (though not necessarily reliable): providing an ISBN or OCLC number; linking to an established Wikipedia article about the source (the work, its author, or its publisher); or directly quoting the material on the talk page, briefly and in context. CarolMooreDC ( talk) 15:28, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
"Under its first president, Karol Rozmarek, who was elected by the Congress, PAC was the Polish lobby, and this tradition was continued by his 1968 successor, Aloysius Mazewski."
I cited this to the history page of the PAC... it does not *explicitly* say the PAC was the lobby... it just says it lobbys (repeatedly). I am concerned this ref may be misleading... but for me it is a weak concern. I wanted to bring it here for easy visibility. sinneed ( talk) 04:18, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
I think I will rework this into 2 sentences, so the facts can be easily cited, and the inferences will be left unreferenced. sinneed ( talk) 04:19, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
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This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
If someone disputes the neutrality of this article please state your reasons here before adding a POV tag. -- Milicz 01:39, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
I guess I came across this looking at Rahm Emanuel article, but it was so horrendously filled with Unsourced libelous and negative comments - not to mention all the stuff about how great the last leader of the group was (totally irrelevant) - that my WikiHat just popped up and I had to clean it up. Per WP:BLP I can and will revert back to that format repeatedly. If you have negative info about Mr. M. you want to share, fine. Just make sure it comes from a WP:Reliable source (Click link for info), preferably some news article linked on the internet. Two or three sentences on his predecessor might be appropriate, but that's about it. Just search Mr. M's name on a search engine and you'll probably find lots of news stories. Private web sites saying nasty things about him don't count ;-) CarolMooreDC ( talk) 01:35, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
You know instead of deleting entire sections and claiming libel you might actually want to edit this article, if not then stay out. Plenty was written about these issues in the Tribune, Sun Times and other articles, if you're unhappy with the article fix it, don't white wash it. -- Milicz ( talk) 05:29, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
1 week from today I plan to come back and restore the removal of the unsourced content. If any editor cares enough about the article to source it, remove the OR an PoV, I will certainly respect their work, of course. But this article is a mess, and has been flagged as requiring improvement since 2007. I don't think a week is going to help. sinneed ( talk) 19:56, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
I have added the totallydisputed flag to the article. I leave the others, because their dates are earlier, and I feel that record should not be lost. Much of this is OR, some if PoV and OR, some could be sourced, but the sources will require careful handling, as they conflict. Research is hampered because so very many sites took this article as valid and have copied it, cited it, and quoted it... and that was a mistake. I caution any editor to be very wary of many sources that will pop up on a quick search. That said, while http://www.searchgleaner.com/cloud/index.php?words=Edward+Moskal contains a copy of this (or this is a copy of it, which seems unlikely), it does have a rich list of possible sources an interested editor might study and possibly find useful. sinneed ( talk) 19:49, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
1st, the citation must actually support the words to which it is attached. If it does not, this is A Very Bad Thing.
2nd, the citations need some kind of description of why they are there. with the cite web tool, that would be a "title=" item usually. With simple inline refs, just put a space after the URL and say what it is
3rd, the External links each need a note added to them, either after the URL or just after the closing ], explaining what it is.
sinneed ( talk) 06:01, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
I added descriptions to those sites I could, and notes for the others. A number of these citations fail wp:EL... no fee sites, no sites requiring registration. The ones for papers that have enough information can be turned into print citations.
There was one anti-Israel/anti-Judaism site (holywar dot org) that I simply removed because the wp:EL failure was egregious as I interpret it. sinneed ( talk) 19:31, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
A possible source for some of the offensive quotes: http://www.reason.com/news/show/28616.html. I don't know them but possibly an RS? sinneed ( talk) 03:42, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
As it reads now, it looks like Moskal was objecting to Moskal? I think something got confused here perhaps? Collect ( talk) 01:27, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
I saw that, but I don't know if I broke it or if it was already broken. I expect to fix it if I ever find a source... or kill it if I can't. If I broke it, I am sorry. :)
Nope, I broke it... some members objected, and the president said he could wine and dine whomever he chose. sinneed ( talk) 02:03, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
I light-heartedly hope the new structure will lend itself to both expanding and tightening this article. I think this was an important and controversial figure, and deserves a better article. I don't plan to get into the anti-Semiticism, as I have no desire to have an edit war. I want to focus on his life, the PNA and the PAC. The PAC an PNA articles are both also weak, so I think I can expand all 3.
Any suggestions? Heh, or of course, wp:Be Bold. :)
sinneed ( talk) 02:10, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
Leaving them here for easy restoral. sinneed ( talk) 05:30, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
Moskal was named national treasurer of the Polish National Alliance in 1967. He left the position when he was elected PNA's president in 1988, following after Alojzy Mazewski. He was re-elected in 2003. He was also elected as President of the Polish American Congress, an umbrella organization of 1,200 Polish-American fraternal, veteran and cultural groups, in 1988 and served in that office until his death.
During his term as President her computerized operations, completed the initiation of broadcasting by radio station WPNA (1490 AM) in the Chicago area and included banking institutions under the name of Alliance FSB with branches in Niles and Chicago, Illinois. During this period smaller Polish American fraternal groups merged with the PNA, which had become the largest ethnic fraternal organization in the United States.
Poland's President Lech Wałęsa awarded Moskal the second highest civilian honor of the Republic of Poland, the Commander's Cross with Star. He was also made an honorary citizen of the city of Kraków, Poland. The title of Honorary Doctor was bestowed upon him by the University of Poznań Medical School in 1997. His 60-plus-year career with PNA led him to a private meeting with Pope John Paul II, several humanitarian-related trips to Poland, and an appointment by United States President Bill Clinton to accompany Vice President Al Gore at the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising anniversary ceremonies in Warsaw.
...or that required a user id. Since most of these were to paid-access newspaper archives, the citation should have gone to the paper articles. sinneed ( talk) 21:23, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
I cut:
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-79636975.html This is a fee site, please remove.]
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-79636975.html This is a fee site, please remove.]
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4155/is_20050323/ai_n13465475 Dead link]
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-8350810_ITM Requires a user id, please remove.]
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-8350810_ITM Requires a user id, please remove.]
http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=CSTB&p_theme=cstb&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=109143F25A4B36A2&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM This is a fee site, please remove.]
http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=ADHB&p_theme=adhb&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0ED0275A64405CE8&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM This is a fee site, please remove.]
These were originally inserted with no titles or descriptions. I added the problems when I went to fact-check them. sinneed ( talk) 02:42, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
CarolMooredc, Wikipedia is meant to be encyclopedic, what you have done is reduce the article to nothing. Don't be fooled Sinneed, this is a POV pusher who has effectively removed most of the true and widely written about aspects about Moskal out of the article, they are subjectively negative, Moskal saw them as positive. Moskal was quoted in Wprost magazine saying in 1998: "Jeśli ktoś nazywa mnie antysemitą, noszę tę etykietkę z dumą", translated: "When someone calls me an antisemite I wear that charge as a badge of honor". [1] So to Moskal himself, what CarolMoore is stating is a Negative POV was actually a badge of honor for this man, he didn't hide from it because he believed in what he preached and didn't care that it was making him a political pariah. Then to state that maybe this man was possibly not notable is a joke in itself. CarolMoore's threats clearly show that she has a need to keep facts hidden, maybe she's a family member embarrassed by what this man stood for, but Wikipedia should be objective, the current article is not.-- Milicz ( talk) 20:51, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
Ok, since I made changes without noticing all the work that had been done, I reverted back to the version just before all the fee refs were removed and then updated subsequent smaller changes. I might take a look for any other highly questionable unsourced info that should be deleted if not quickly sourced. Just remember the rule is that unsourced info can be removed and that poorly sourced info (like fee sites) can be easily challenged. So the person should try to clean those up per above, ie with better descriptions of article and actual quotes from article.
This rule I also found today here that I think applies since if you have to pay to read it, it makes it more difficult to read and therefore much more challengeable, as you saw it was challenged and removed: Wikipedia:Citing_sources#Links_and_ID_numbers If your source is not findable online, it should be findable in reputable libraries, archives, or collections. If a citation without an external link is challenged as unfindable, any of the following is sufficient to show the material to be reasonably findable (though not necessarily reliable): providing an ISBN or OCLC number; linking to an established Wikipedia article about the source (the work, its author, or its publisher); or directly quoting the material on the talk page, briefly and in context. CarolMooreDC ( talk) 15:28, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
"Under its first president, Karol Rozmarek, who was elected by the Congress, PAC was the Polish lobby, and this tradition was continued by his 1968 successor, Aloysius Mazewski."
I cited this to the history page of the PAC... it does not *explicitly* say the PAC was the lobby... it just says it lobbys (repeatedly). I am concerned this ref may be misleading... but for me it is a weak concern. I wanted to bring it here for easy visibility. sinneed ( talk) 04:18, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
I think I will rework this into 2 sentences, so the facts can be easily cited, and the inferences will be left unreferenced. sinneed ( talk) 04:19, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on Edward Moskal. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 01:12, 18 September 2017 (UTC)