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NetRange: 192.55.32.0 - 192.55.81.255 OrgName: Intel Corporation OrgID: NTLS Address: 2200 Mission College Blvd, P.O. Box 58119 City: Santa Clara StateProv: CA PostalCode: 95052-8119 Country: US
[QUOTE]The plotters were closely monitored by the military and police agents. Three hotels - EDSA Shangri-La, Richmonde Hotel, and Galleria Suites - were used by the opposition as war headquarters at the height of the protests. Five rooms, including the presidential suites, In Shangri-La, four rooms in Richmonde, and several rooms on the 18th and 29th floors of the Galleria Suites were booked. Lacson, Honasan, Enrile, former First Lady Loi Ejercito and JV Ejercito had a room each at the Galleria suites, which was right behind the EDSA shrine. Opposition leaders said, however, the rooms were used, not as command centers to plot against the government, but as sanctuary to the tired leaders of the protest movement.
Honasan and Lacson, according to the military agents, were on top of the tactical planning for the rallies, the aborted negotiations with government, and the siege of Malacanang.
Room 1801, the presidential suite on the 18th floor of Edsa Plaza Shangri-La was reserved on April 29 by one Meloy Trinidad, vice-president for administration of the Antonino Group of Companies with office address in T.M. Kalaw corner Jorge Bocobo, Manila. The group of Honasan, Lacson, Maceda, and Enrile checked in at 7 p.m. and left 3 a.m. the following day. Seen with them at the hotel was INC deputy Executive Director Eduardo 'Eddie Boy' Manalo, son of Minister Manalo. He was reportedly invited to sit in at the negotiations between the administration and the opposition. [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]One member of the INC told CNN that followers are being encouraged to join the pro-Estrada demonstrations.[/QUOTE] This being said, I think that it smacks of pretense denying the fact that Eduardo Manalo just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. Police saw him with the plotters, and the Wiki article says just that: "he figured in a rebellion plot." It did not say he plotted a rebellion. 192422212
As to the credibility of the book and author, it was named the Manila Critics Circle's National Book Award- Journalist of the Year, as well as Book Development Association of the Philippines' Gintong Aklat Award. 192422212
[QUOTE]Authorities have identified the hotel rooms and suites in which Enrile, Honasan, Jamby Madrigal, Panfilo Lacson, Maceda and Eddie Manalo, the son of INC head Bishop Eraño Manalo, met during three days of the rallies. They know the hotels used, the time they met, the false names used in booking the suites.[/QUOTE] 192422212
[QUOTE]The position of ambassador to France, which is currently being held by career officer Hector Villaroel, has been promised by the President(Arroyo) to Inquirer columnist Amando Doronila.[QUOTE] -- Emico 15:08, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"The Fall of Joseph..." page 236 [QUOTE]The National Security Council meeting in Malacanang was held next day. Senate President Aquilino Pimentel proposed a dialogue between the government and Manalo after hearing from Mendoza that INC members made up at least 70% of the EDSA 3 crowd. Some Cabinet members opposed the idea, but the president sided with Pimentel. She sent him, Speaker Feliciano Belmonte, and Justice Secretary Hernando Perez to the INC headquarters. Even before the dialogue with the INC leadership was over, Net 25 and DZEC, which had been covering the rally round-the-clock, had gone off the air without warning or explanation.[/QUOTE] The deal (page 237): [QUOTE]INC sources also said that Macapagal-Arroyo had promised to Appoint former Jusice Secretary Artemio Tuquero, a respected and ranking member of the INC, to a suitable government post. As of this writing,...Tuquero also has been nominated as ambasador to Canada.[/QUOTE]
The new section badly needs POV edits. The accusations that EVM held secret negotiations with Arroyo to avoid charges should go in the absence of proof. No proof likewise was given equating Defensor's "courtesy call" to INC's support for Arroyo in the elections. Anybody care to do these? Ealva 02:50, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Because there isn't a dispute over a specific part of this article, only it's lack of sources, who feels the {{DisputeCheck}} template should be used instead? This template reads: "This article requires attention because it may contain inaccuracies. A Wikipedian has nominated this article to be checked for accuracy. Currently there may not be a specific dispute, but the content may need discussion on the talk page. --
LBMixPro
(Speak on it!)
Onlytofind, unless you can provide sources for your 'rebellion' allegation, do not use wikipedia to defame another person. -- Emico 14:52, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
According to Emico's edit here, the site referring the book isn't a good enough resource. I agree. I don't even see reference to the INC in that webpage. In order to really warrant the refrence being here, I'd like to see the actual location of where the allegation of Manalo's involvment in the book The Fall of Joseph Estrada ( ISBN 9712711544). If we find the actual paragraph and page number, then we have a more clearer look at whether or not the author alleged it. -- LBMixPro (Speak on it!) 20:16, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)
As to the credibility of the book, it was named the Manila Critics Circle's National Book Award- Journalist of the Year, as well as Book Development Association of the Philippines' Gintong Aklat Award. 192422212
The allegations that the courtesy call of GMA to EVM resulted in the INC's support is a POV violation. I have removed it. Ealva 21:39, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I suggest that the political influence section should be removed:
He has claimed that the author was "biased against the INC," but has no proof to back it up, and relies on a quote with absolutely no source (could he have made it up himself?) He has included the personal statement While I have the utmost respect for Doronila’s opinions and writing style, I am afraid that in this particular case, his analysis is biased in favor of his personal interests. And EDSA II happened five years ago- why would Doronilla be writing about it five years later? That's stacking the facts and using personal opinion. Those are obvious violations of Wikipedia rules, and shows the intention of Emico to tilt this article towards personal opinion.-- Onlytofind 20:47, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Ealva 04:25, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
192.55.40.96 23:56, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Since no other journalist, local or foreign collaborated Doronilla's claim, we need to explore his motivation for making such claim for the sake of NPOV. --
Emico 15:03, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"Manalo allegedly figured". Does an unproven allegation belong in an encyclopedia? In a forum, certainly, but NOT in an encyclopedia. The other mistake: "local newspaper reports (Philippine Daily Inquirer, May 7, 2001),". I don't know if anyone noticed, but "reports" is plural and the source quoted is singular. But either way, did the book quote its source? No. Making allegations without the requisite proof is simply wrong, and those allegations certainly don't belong here. One last note: "One member of the INC told CNN that followers are being encouraged to join the pro-Estrada demonstrations." That, people, is called hearsay. If what one unnamed, unidentified person says is to be taken as fact in an encyclopedia, there's a real problem! PROVABLE FACTS, NOT ALLEGATIONS AND HEARSAY, people!-- gcessor 12:46, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Antonio Abaya's article wasn't referring to Amando Doronilla's book, rather, it was regarding an article written in the Inquirer on May 9, 2005. As such, it has no bearing in this article about Eduardo Manalo. I am deleting this reference.
Antonio Abaya's column speaks about Doronila's article written in the Inquirer on May 9, 2005 ( GMA ouster calls echo nostalgia for strongman): My esteemed colleague and friend Amando Doronila, in a think piece in the May 9 issue of the Philippine Daily Inquirer titled “GMA ouster calls echo nostalgia for strongman,” analyzed recent political developments.
When Abaya has said: While I have the utmost respect for Doronila’s opinions and writing style, I am afraid that in this particular case, his analysis is biased in favor of his personal interests, he was referring to Doronila's article about those calling for Arroyo's ouster as being nostalgic for Ferdinand Marcos, to which Abaya disagrees.
Doronila's article being referred to by Antonio Abaya has nothing to do with the book he wrote containing the reference to Eduardo Manalo. He was referring on to a "particular case," specifically, the May 9, 2005 article.
To those editing the Political Influence section, please provide proof for the following:
All editors here are more than happy to accomodate your edits, provided you follow Wikipedia's NPOV policies. And please, sign your posts. If you're smart enough to provide proofs, you should be smart enough to create an account. Ealva 29 June 2005 02:32 (UTC)
Is there any way we can shorten the excerpt from the Doronila book? Besides it being long, it can be considered copyvio. -- LBMixPro (Speak on it!) 10:35, July 12, 2005 (UTC)
According to Amando Doronila's The Fall of Joseph Estrada: The Inside Story, ( ISBN 9712711544; pages 226-227) – as well as local newspaper reports (Philippine Daily Inquirer, May 7, 2001), Manalo was seen in meetings with the opposition on the height of the EDSA III mass gatherings:
The group of Honasan, Lacson, Maceda, and Enrile checked in at 7 p.m. and left 3 a.m. the following day. Seen with them at the hotel was INC deputy Executive Director Eduardo 'Eddie Boy' Manalo, son of Minister Manalo. He was reportedly invited to sit in at the negotiations between the administration and the opposition. 192.55.40.96 01:27, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk%3AEduardo_V._Manalo&diff=19055203&oldid=18717446 By the way, I am IpsoFacto. 192.55.40.96 01:27, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
Unless these items are resolved, this article is in violation of NPOV rules. Ealva 23:44, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
For those of you that haven't heard, Emico has been banned from editing any INC-related article until next September, after he has been proven to use sockpuppet accounts to circumvent Wikipedia rules, with the names AypeeESME (IP is me?) and BrewCoffee (a parody of my name as well as Coffeemaker's). I have reported it to Theo Clarke, a Wikipedia sysop and await his decision.-- Ironbrew 08:26, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
I wish Starbucks, or whoever posted as 213.55.89.8 would bury hatchet with me, instead of going under these anon names, suggesting me to leave these articles. If 213.55.89.8 really was Emico, I'd very dissapointed. I was anticipating to give him a resilience barnstar, but if he's gonna act like this. No. That's just not cool. I have always respected INC, and I hold some of their beliefs to my heart. But it's that kind of act 213.55.89.8 had displayed gives INC a bad name. That's why Wikipedians are saying INC doesn't look like a attractive organization. Becuase they deal with that holier-than-thou attitude, which screams as loud as a CWS service. It's this kind of act that makes me not want to return to INC. Of course there are some great people who are part of INC, no doubt. You guys are so worried about doctorines and beliefs, but in truth, it's that self-centered attitude which made me leave. Why would I want to join a church who seems to persecute like that? Of course INC is expected to be percecuted. It's a doctorine. A doctorine I signed as an inductee stating I understood it. But in my opinion, it doesn't give anybody an excuse to persecute in the name of the Church. If the INC will be evangelically succsesful, some of its members must drop their holier-than-thou and you-don't-follow-us-exactly-or-we'll-hate-you attitudes, so they would not make INC look like some kind of clique where only the ones who they feel are worthy. PS. Thank you so much Ironbrew for pointing out Starbucks. I didn't have this article on my watchlist, and I still stood blind to what really was going on. As for now, I got other things to do around the site. I have serious articles to help reformat, so I'll steer clear of these articles for a while. -- LBMixPro <Speak|on|it!> 13:32, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
NetRange: 192.55.32.0 - 192.55.81.255 OrgName: Intel Corporation OrgID: NTLS Address: 2200 Mission College Blvd, P.O. Box 58119 City: Santa Clara StateProv: CA PostalCode: 95052-8119 Country: US
[QUOTE]The plotters were closely monitored by the military and police agents. Three hotels - EDSA Shangri-La, Richmonde Hotel, and Galleria Suites - were used by the opposition as war headquarters at the height of the protests. Five rooms, including the presidential suites, In Shangri-La, four rooms in Richmonde, and several rooms on the 18th and 29th floors of the Galleria Suites were booked. Lacson, Honasan, Enrile, former First Lady Loi Ejercito and JV Ejercito had a room each at the Galleria suites, which was right behind the EDSA shrine. Opposition leaders said, however, the rooms were used, not as command centers to plot against the government, but as sanctuary to the tired leaders of the protest movement.
Honasan and Lacson, according to the military agents, were on top of the tactical planning for the rallies, the aborted negotiations with government, and the siege of Malacanang.
Room 1801, the presidential suite on the 18th floor of Edsa Plaza Shangri-La was reserved on April 29 by one Meloy Trinidad, vice-president for administration of the Antonino Group of Companies with office address in T.M. Kalaw corner Jorge Bocobo, Manila. The group of Honasan, Lacson, Maceda, and Enrile checked in at 7 p.m. and left 3 a.m. the following day. Seen with them at the hotel was INC deputy Executive Director Eduardo 'Eddie Boy' Manalo, son of Minister Manalo. He was reportedly invited to sit in at the negotiations between the administration and the opposition. [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]One member of the INC told CNN that followers are being encouraged to join the pro-Estrada demonstrations.[/QUOTE] This being said, I think that it smacks of pretense denying the fact that Eduardo Manalo just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. Police saw him with the plotters, and the Wiki article says just that: "he figured in a rebellion plot." It did not say he plotted a rebellion. 192422212
As to the credibility of the book and author, it was named the Manila Critics Circle's National Book Award- Journalist of the Year, as well as Book Development Association of the Philippines' Gintong Aklat Award. 192422212
[QUOTE]Authorities have identified the hotel rooms and suites in which Enrile, Honasan, Jamby Madrigal, Panfilo Lacson, Maceda and Eddie Manalo, the son of INC head Bishop Eraño Manalo, met during three days of the rallies. They know the hotels used, the time they met, the false names used in booking the suites.[/QUOTE] 192422212
[QUOTE]The position of ambassador to France, which is currently being held by career officer Hector Villaroel, has been promised by the President(Arroyo) to Inquirer columnist Amando Doronila.[QUOTE] -- Emico 15:08, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"The Fall of Joseph..." page 236 [QUOTE]The National Security Council meeting in Malacanang was held next day. Senate President Aquilino Pimentel proposed a dialogue between the government and Manalo after hearing from Mendoza that INC members made up at least 70% of the EDSA 3 crowd. Some Cabinet members opposed the idea, but the president sided with Pimentel. She sent him, Speaker Feliciano Belmonte, and Justice Secretary Hernando Perez to the INC headquarters. Even before the dialogue with the INC leadership was over, Net 25 and DZEC, which had been covering the rally round-the-clock, had gone off the air without warning or explanation.[/QUOTE] The deal (page 237): [QUOTE]INC sources also said that Macapagal-Arroyo had promised to Appoint former Jusice Secretary Artemio Tuquero, a respected and ranking member of the INC, to a suitable government post. As of this writing,...Tuquero also has been nominated as ambasador to Canada.[/QUOTE]
The new section badly needs POV edits. The accusations that EVM held secret negotiations with Arroyo to avoid charges should go in the absence of proof. No proof likewise was given equating Defensor's "courtesy call" to INC's support for Arroyo in the elections. Anybody care to do these? Ealva 02:50, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Because there isn't a dispute over a specific part of this article, only it's lack of sources, who feels the {{DisputeCheck}} template should be used instead? This template reads: "This article requires attention because it may contain inaccuracies. A Wikipedian has nominated this article to be checked for accuracy. Currently there may not be a specific dispute, but the content may need discussion on the talk page. --
LBMixPro
(Speak on it!)
Onlytofind, unless you can provide sources for your 'rebellion' allegation, do not use wikipedia to defame another person. -- Emico 14:52, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
According to Emico's edit here, the site referring the book isn't a good enough resource. I agree. I don't even see reference to the INC in that webpage. In order to really warrant the refrence being here, I'd like to see the actual location of where the allegation of Manalo's involvment in the book The Fall of Joseph Estrada ( ISBN 9712711544). If we find the actual paragraph and page number, then we have a more clearer look at whether or not the author alleged it. -- LBMixPro (Speak on it!) 20:16, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)
As to the credibility of the book, it was named the Manila Critics Circle's National Book Award- Journalist of the Year, as well as Book Development Association of the Philippines' Gintong Aklat Award. 192422212
The allegations that the courtesy call of GMA to EVM resulted in the INC's support is a POV violation. I have removed it. Ealva 21:39, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I suggest that the political influence section should be removed:
He has claimed that the author was "biased against the INC," but has no proof to back it up, and relies on a quote with absolutely no source (could he have made it up himself?) He has included the personal statement While I have the utmost respect for Doronila’s opinions and writing style, I am afraid that in this particular case, his analysis is biased in favor of his personal interests. And EDSA II happened five years ago- why would Doronilla be writing about it five years later? That's stacking the facts and using personal opinion. Those are obvious violations of Wikipedia rules, and shows the intention of Emico to tilt this article towards personal opinion.-- Onlytofind 20:47, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Ealva 04:25, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
192.55.40.96 23:56, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Since no other journalist, local or foreign collaborated Doronilla's claim, we need to explore his motivation for making such claim for the sake of NPOV. --
Emico 15:03, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"Manalo allegedly figured". Does an unproven allegation belong in an encyclopedia? In a forum, certainly, but NOT in an encyclopedia. The other mistake: "local newspaper reports (Philippine Daily Inquirer, May 7, 2001),". I don't know if anyone noticed, but "reports" is plural and the source quoted is singular. But either way, did the book quote its source? No. Making allegations without the requisite proof is simply wrong, and those allegations certainly don't belong here. One last note: "One member of the INC told CNN that followers are being encouraged to join the pro-Estrada demonstrations." That, people, is called hearsay. If what one unnamed, unidentified person says is to be taken as fact in an encyclopedia, there's a real problem! PROVABLE FACTS, NOT ALLEGATIONS AND HEARSAY, people!-- gcessor 12:46, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Antonio Abaya's article wasn't referring to Amando Doronilla's book, rather, it was regarding an article written in the Inquirer on May 9, 2005. As such, it has no bearing in this article about Eduardo Manalo. I am deleting this reference.
Antonio Abaya's column speaks about Doronila's article written in the Inquirer on May 9, 2005 ( GMA ouster calls echo nostalgia for strongman): My esteemed colleague and friend Amando Doronila, in a think piece in the May 9 issue of the Philippine Daily Inquirer titled “GMA ouster calls echo nostalgia for strongman,” analyzed recent political developments.
When Abaya has said: While I have the utmost respect for Doronila’s opinions and writing style, I am afraid that in this particular case, his analysis is biased in favor of his personal interests, he was referring to Doronila's article about those calling for Arroyo's ouster as being nostalgic for Ferdinand Marcos, to which Abaya disagrees.
Doronila's article being referred to by Antonio Abaya has nothing to do with the book he wrote containing the reference to Eduardo Manalo. He was referring on to a "particular case," specifically, the May 9, 2005 article.
To those editing the Political Influence section, please provide proof for the following:
All editors here are more than happy to accomodate your edits, provided you follow Wikipedia's NPOV policies. And please, sign your posts. If you're smart enough to provide proofs, you should be smart enough to create an account. Ealva 29 June 2005 02:32 (UTC)
Is there any way we can shorten the excerpt from the Doronila book? Besides it being long, it can be considered copyvio. -- LBMixPro (Speak on it!) 10:35, July 12, 2005 (UTC)
According to Amando Doronila's The Fall of Joseph Estrada: The Inside Story, ( ISBN 9712711544; pages 226-227) – as well as local newspaper reports (Philippine Daily Inquirer, May 7, 2001), Manalo was seen in meetings with the opposition on the height of the EDSA III mass gatherings:
The group of Honasan, Lacson, Maceda, and Enrile checked in at 7 p.m. and left 3 a.m. the following day. Seen with them at the hotel was INC deputy Executive Director Eduardo 'Eddie Boy' Manalo, son of Minister Manalo. He was reportedly invited to sit in at the negotiations between the administration and the opposition. 192.55.40.96 01:27, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk%3AEduardo_V._Manalo&diff=19055203&oldid=18717446 By the way, I am IpsoFacto. 192.55.40.96 01:27, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
Unless these items are resolved, this article is in violation of NPOV rules. Ealva 23:44, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
For those of you that haven't heard, Emico has been banned from editing any INC-related article until next September, after he has been proven to use sockpuppet accounts to circumvent Wikipedia rules, with the names AypeeESME (IP is me?) and BrewCoffee (a parody of my name as well as Coffeemaker's). I have reported it to Theo Clarke, a Wikipedia sysop and await his decision.-- Ironbrew 08:26, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
I wish Starbucks, or whoever posted as 213.55.89.8 would bury hatchet with me, instead of going under these anon names, suggesting me to leave these articles. If 213.55.89.8 really was Emico, I'd very dissapointed. I was anticipating to give him a resilience barnstar, but if he's gonna act like this. No. That's just not cool. I have always respected INC, and I hold some of their beliefs to my heart. But it's that kind of act 213.55.89.8 had displayed gives INC a bad name. That's why Wikipedians are saying INC doesn't look like a attractive organization. Becuase they deal with that holier-than-thou attitude, which screams as loud as a CWS service. It's this kind of act that makes me not want to return to INC. Of course there are some great people who are part of INC, no doubt. You guys are so worried about doctorines and beliefs, but in truth, it's that self-centered attitude which made me leave. Why would I want to join a church who seems to persecute like that? Of course INC is expected to be percecuted. It's a doctorine. A doctorine I signed as an inductee stating I understood it. But in my opinion, it doesn't give anybody an excuse to persecute in the name of the Church. If the INC will be evangelically succsesful, some of its members must drop their holier-than-thou and you-don't-follow-us-exactly-or-we'll-hate-you attitudes, so they would not make INC look like some kind of clique where only the ones who they feel are worthy. PS. Thank you so much Ironbrew for pointing out Starbucks. I didn't have this article on my watchlist, and I still stood blind to what really was going on. As for now, I got other things to do around the site. I have serious articles to help reformat, so I'll steer clear of these articles for a while. -- LBMixPro <Speak|on|it!> 13:32, 11 November 2005 (UTC)