Edmund Burke was one of the History good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||
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This page has archives. Sections older than 14 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III. |
There is no argument over the fact that England was the forum in which Burke achieved greatness, but the question hinges on whether this qualifies him as 'Anglo-Irish', which would be a term used to describe somebody like, say, the Duke of Wellington. Burke was born and grew up in Ireland, was educated at Trinity College Dublin, left for London afterwards and retained his Irish accent throughout his life. He championed Irish causes from Westminster, and maintained a large retinue of Irish people. There really isn't a lot more to it than that, and if you were to substitute the word Dublin with Edinburgh, that would be the end of the matter. To the other points, both of Burke's parents were Irish as had their people been for centuries: his mother was a Catholic, and whether or not his father was an 'old' Anglican or a recent convert to the Established Church in order to practice law doesn't really matter. The talk of Burke being an old English name is going back to the Normans and is rather desperate. By that logic vast swathes of English people are 'Franco-English', a moniker they would no doubt chafe under. Was Brunel 'Franco-English' or just English? I would submit the latter. Moreover, the paternal name is a small percentage of one's genetic makeup, but again that doesn't really matter. As for Burke's utterances, he was a politician and a pamphleteer. Wrapping himself in the flag to count himself as English is the only way in which an outsider could expect to have influence in the court of public opinion, and he used this technique in provoking empathy with the Americans by describing them as Englishmen. 'Englishman' in this sense has a different, more universal meaning than literally being from England. Burke's sympathies and actions on behalf of Ireland speak for themselves, and his wanting Ireland to remain in union with Britain makes him no less Irish than Gordon Brown is Scottish. His Irish sympathies weren't a secret: when the Duke of Argyll heard of Gladstone studying the writings of Burke on the question of Home Rule he said "Your perfervidum ingenium Scoti does not need being touched with a live coal from that Irish alter" [1] Bob Geldof for example left Ireland at roughly the same age as Burke, is an ardent unionist, a political agitator, a KBE, but still sounds and regards himself as Irish, which is easier today than in Burke's time. The Anglo prefix is pregnant with meaning and is not the correct way to describe Burke. I hope that sense prevails in this matter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lucid19 ( talk • contribs) 14:21, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
I would suggest that the commenter above take their own advice and read through the Wikipedia entry on "Anglo-Irish". Not only does it explicitly reference and link to Burke's page, in a speech by Yeats about the Anglo-Irish, but it clearly states, "Not all Anglo-Irish people could trace their origins to the Protestant English settlers of the Cromwellian period; some were of Welsh stock, and others descended from Old English or even native Gaelic converts to Anglicanism". His paternal family, Burke was English in origin and again the "House of Burke" page on Wikipedia mentions its Anglo-Irish branches. The Fitzgerald Dukes of Leinster, George Canning and the Guinness family are all from a similar "Old English" stock but nevertheless are referred to as Anglo-Irish. Edmund Burke's Irish identities by Sean Patrick Donlan is a good reference for clarifying the complicated nature of Burke's nationality. He had English and Jacobite ancestor's who emigrated to Ireland during the traditional Anlgo-Irish period.
In the discussion below about the use of "British vs Irish", Pailsimon put together a good collection of 16 references. Of which 7 refer to Burke exclusively as Anglo-Irish 1 2 3 4 5 6 7, one as both Irish and Anglo-Irish, 5 as exclusively Irish and one doesn't seem to mention his nationality but does mention that he was a lifelong Anglican (often associated with the Anglo-Irish). The vast majority of the academic articles (as opposed to newspapers) use Anglo-Irish.
To these I would add my own examples of Burke referred to as Anglo-Irish 1 2 3 4 5 6
Surely this is good grounds to conclude that the consensus is that Burke was Anglo-Irish.
Admittedly the situation is clearly complicated, so I would also support not leading the article with a mention of his national identity, as seems to be the norm with historical figures who cannot be easily categorised with modern nationalities.
However personally the fact that Burke referred to himself repeatedly as an Englishman, as is stated later on this page, for example in his letter to the Sheriffs of Bristol (1777) "Liberty is in danger of being made unpopular to Englishmen. Contending for an imaginary power, we begin to acquire the spirit of domination, and to lose the relish of honest equality" strongly supports for referring to him as at least Anglo-Irish.
This is of course in addition to his membership of the British Parliament, the 47 years he lived in England (where he was buried), as opposed to 21 in Ireland and his Anglican faith.
Tchaikovskyflowers ( talk) 17:54, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/48582359.pdf? https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/1404698.pdf?ab_segments=0%252Fbasic_search_gsv2%252Fcontrol&refreqid=excelsior%3A24df0fb5056b445876a60a1360a4f77bab_segments=0%252Fbasic_search_gsv2%252Fcontrol&refreqid=excelsior%3Abf57036cd9a57d4669ca6e61590c8ff0 (Refers to Burke as an "Irishman") http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/biographies/edmund-burke/ https://theamericanscholar.org/the-right-honourable-mr-burke/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by ComradeKublai ( talk • contribs) 00:49, 8 December 2021 (UTC) ComradeKublai ( talk) 00:56, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
I'm sorry I thought my post was quite clear, I was following the definition used by Wikipedia, the Oxford Reference Dictionary, Miriam Webster, besides others, all of which all refer to Anglo-Irish as a person with mixed ancestry living in Ireland.
Burke qualifies to be in this group, as being of English descent. Most obviously his surname is English, from Old English "burh" meaning "fortified hill" and being derived originally from his ancestors in East Anglia.
Anglo-Irish does not solely refer to those who immigrated in the early modern period. Could you find me a source that defines Anglo-Irish as solely those who immigrated in the early modern period?
You seem to be overstressing the distinction between Old English and New English settlers in Ireland. Both pages on Wikipedia make it clear that there was interrelation and assimilation between the two groups.
"And while most of the Anglo-Irish originated in the English diaspora in Ireland, some were of native Irish families who had converted from the Catholic Church to Anglicanism.[6]"
"Conversely, some Hiberno-Normans assimilated into the new English Protestant elite, as the Anglo-Irish."
Burke would be a perfect example of this. He had Jacobite ancestry that immigrated in the 17th century and English ancestry such as Edmund Spenser, who would qualify as Early Modern.
Rather than implying that the Mcgill article's author has a lack of insight, I would suggest considering that they acknowledged Burke's "Munster Roman Catholic stock" and still decided to label him Anglo-Irish. This is strong evidence that the term is not as narrow as you claim.
Your four sources aren't very persuasive as to Anglo-Irish not being the preferred term, the second one doesn't label him Irish anywhere I can see, and the third refers to him as British before Irish. Even if we were to acknowledge them, it would reinforce my point that this is a complicated issue, where the academic community is split and simply calling him Irish isn't suitable. Again an alternative might be to remove any reference to his ethnicity in the header and let the article on his life simply speak for itself, it's quite clear later on that Burke was ambiguous in his identity.
If we are simply trading sources though, here are another two that clearly include him as one of the most important figures in discussions of Anglo-Irish literature.
Britannica has a subheading dedicated to Burke in its discussion of Anglo-Irish literature. [3]
Again I should explain that my argument is not to deny his Irishness, he was absolutely born in Ireland, spoke a fair amount of Gaelic and expressed deep fondness for the land and people. However identity and ethnicity are extremely complicated and nuanced concepts, and a person can often identify with multiple labels. Burke was clearly one such case. I believe that Anglo-Irish captures this ambiguity far better than simply Irish.
If instead you refuse to discuss or try to understand the situation and simply revert my changes, you'll be in breach of WP:CON, where it is clearly the protocol to try and reach an evidence based consensus.
If you have the time I'd again recommend reading more widely on Burke's identity, most important for this discussion being Edmund Burke's Irish identities by Sean Patrick Donlan. At the moment all you seem to be biasedly edit warring, and oversimplifying the issue down to "Roman Catholic Stock".
Tchaikovskyflowers ( talk) 13:18, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
Burke was born and lived in Ireland making him Irish. Plus the vast majority of sources call him Irish. There's no conceivable way he is "British". PailSimon ( talk) 19:50, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
SeanEML ( talk) 20:25, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Edmund-Burke-British-philosopher-and-statesman https://www.encyclopedia.com/people/social-sciences-and-law/political-science-biographies/edmund-burke
If you are able to provide evidence that he is Irish to the exclusion of being British, then we can talk.
Kind regards, SeanEML ( talk) 20:28, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
SeanEML ( talk) 20:48, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
Interesting how SeanEML has stopped responding after being given the sources he requested, yet continues to edit war. This shows clear dishonesty and a blatant disregard for Wikipedia's rules. Should SeanEML be allowed to continue engaging in this sort of behavior? ComradeKublai ( talk) 02:23, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
I am leaving this here as a note on the Talk page because I fear I won't get the reference formatting correctly. F P Lock (volume 1), page 92, writes: "Burke told his readers that 'it is four years now since this enquiry was finished' (1757 preface), that is, in 1753." A footnote on this reads "To Shackleton, E.B. wrote more vaguely that 'it lay by me for a good while, and I at last ventured it out' (10 Aug 1757) [Oxford, Clarendon Press, 1998] Frank Lynch ( talk) 18:51, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
Useful section has been removed. Mediatelevitate ( talk) 14:22, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
We read the following: "On 12 March 1757, Burke married Jane Mary Nugent (1734–1812), daughter of Dr. Christopher Nugent, a Catholic physician who had provided him with medical treatment at Bath. Their son Richard was born on 9 February 1758 while an elder son, Christopher, died in infancy." Has Christopher been born before or immediately after their marriage, i.e., was he conceived out of wedlock? This seems unlikely in that sphere of society at that time. Yet, since Richard was born roughly 11 months after their marriage, Christopher could hardly have been "an elder son". FeliksK ( talk) 20:19, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
Edmund Burke was one of the History good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the " On this day..." column on July 9, 2017. | |||||||||||||
Current status: Delisted good article |
This
level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This page has archives. Sections older than 14 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III. |
There is no argument over the fact that England was the forum in which Burke achieved greatness, but the question hinges on whether this qualifies him as 'Anglo-Irish', which would be a term used to describe somebody like, say, the Duke of Wellington. Burke was born and grew up in Ireland, was educated at Trinity College Dublin, left for London afterwards and retained his Irish accent throughout his life. He championed Irish causes from Westminster, and maintained a large retinue of Irish people. There really isn't a lot more to it than that, and if you were to substitute the word Dublin with Edinburgh, that would be the end of the matter. To the other points, both of Burke's parents were Irish as had their people been for centuries: his mother was a Catholic, and whether or not his father was an 'old' Anglican or a recent convert to the Established Church in order to practice law doesn't really matter. The talk of Burke being an old English name is going back to the Normans and is rather desperate. By that logic vast swathes of English people are 'Franco-English', a moniker they would no doubt chafe under. Was Brunel 'Franco-English' or just English? I would submit the latter. Moreover, the paternal name is a small percentage of one's genetic makeup, but again that doesn't really matter. As for Burke's utterances, he was a politician and a pamphleteer. Wrapping himself in the flag to count himself as English is the only way in which an outsider could expect to have influence in the court of public opinion, and he used this technique in provoking empathy with the Americans by describing them as Englishmen. 'Englishman' in this sense has a different, more universal meaning than literally being from England. Burke's sympathies and actions on behalf of Ireland speak for themselves, and his wanting Ireland to remain in union with Britain makes him no less Irish than Gordon Brown is Scottish. His Irish sympathies weren't a secret: when the Duke of Argyll heard of Gladstone studying the writings of Burke on the question of Home Rule he said "Your perfervidum ingenium Scoti does not need being touched with a live coal from that Irish alter" [1] Bob Geldof for example left Ireland at roughly the same age as Burke, is an ardent unionist, a political agitator, a KBE, but still sounds and regards himself as Irish, which is easier today than in Burke's time. The Anglo prefix is pregnant with meaning and is not the correct way to describe Burke. I hope that sense prevails in this matter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lucid19 ( talk • contribs) 14:21, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
I would suggest that the commenter above take their own advice and read through the Wikipedia entry on "Anglo-Irish". Not only does it explicitly reference and link to Burke's page, in a speech by Yeats about the Anglo-Irish, but it clearly states, "Not all Anglo-Irish people could trace their origins to the Protestant English settlers of the Cromwellian period; some were of Welsh stock, and others descended from Old English or even native Gaelic converts to Anglicanism". His paternal family, Burke was English in origin and again the "House of Burke" page on Wikipedia mentions its Anglo-Irish branches. The Fitzgerald Dukes of Leinster, George Canning and the Guinness family are all from a similar "Old English" stock but nevertheless are referred to as Anglo-Irish. Edmund Burke's Irish identities by Sean Patrick Donlan is a good reference for clarifying the complicated nature of Burke's nationality. He had English and Jacobite ancestor's who emigrated to Ireland during the traditional Anlgo-Irish period.
In the discussion below about the use of "British vs Irish", Pailsimon put together a good collection of 16 references. Of which 7 refer to Burke exclusively as Anglo-Irish 1 2 3 4 5 6 7, one as both Irish and Anglo-Irish, 5 as exclusively Irish and one doesn't seem to mention his nationality but does mention that he was a lifelong Anglican (often associated with the Anglo-Irish). The vast majority of the academic articles (as opposed to newspapers) use Anglo-Irish.
To these I would add my own examples of Burke referred to as Anglo-Irish 1 2 3 4 5 6
Surely this is good grounds to conclude that the consensus is that Burke was Anglo-Irish.
Admittedly the situation is clearly complicated, so I would also support not leading the article with a mention of his national identity, as seems to be the norm with historical figures who cannot be easily categorised with modern nationalities.
However personally the fact that Burke referred to himself repeatedly as an Englishman, as is stated later on this page, for example in his letter to the Sheriffs of Bristol (1777) "Liberty is in danger of being made unpopular to Englishmen. Contending for an imaginary power, we begin to acquire the spirit of domination, and to lose the relish of honest equality" strongly supports for referring to him as at least Anglo-Irish.
This is of course in addition to his membership of the British Parliament, the 47 years he lived in England (where he was buried), as opposed to 21 in Ireland and his Anglican faith.
Tchaikovskyflowers ( talk) 17:54, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/48582359.pdf? https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/1404698.pdf?ab_segments=0%252Fbasic_search_gsv2%252Fcontrol&refreqid=excelsior%3A24df0fb5056b445876a60a1360a4f77bab_segments=0%252Fbasic_search_gsv2%252Fcontrol&refreqid=excelsior%3Abf57036cd9a57d4669ca6e61590c8ff0 (Refers to Burke as an "Irishman") http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/biographies/edmund-burke/ https://theamericanscholar.org/the-right-honourable-mr-burke/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by ComradeKublai ( talk • contribs) 00:49, 8 December 2021 (UTC) ComradeKublai ( talk) 00:56, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
I'm sorry I thought my post was quite clear, I was following the definition used by Wikipedia, the Oxford Reference Dictionary, Miriam Webster, besides others, all of which all refer to Anglo-Irish as a person with mixed ancestry living in Ireland.
Burke qualifies to be in this group, as being of English descent. Most obviously his surname is English, from Old English "burh" meaning "fortified hill" and being derived originally from his ancestors in East Anglia.
Anglo-Irish does not solely refer to those who immigrated in the early modern period. Could you find me a source that defines Anglo-Irish as solely those who immigrated in the early modern period?
You seem to be overstressing the distinction between Old English and New English settlers in Ireland. Both pages on Wikipedia make it clear that there was interrelation and assimilation between the two groups.
"And while most of the Anglo-Irish originated in the English diaspora in Ireland, some were of native Irish families who had converted from the Catholic Church to Anglicanism.[6]"
"Conversely, some Hiberno-Normans assimilated into the new English Protestant elite, as the Anglo-Irish."
Burke would be a perfect example of this. He had Jacobite ancestry that immigrated in the 17th century and English ancestry such as Edmund Spenser, who would qualify as Early Modern.
Rather than implying that the Mcgill article's author has a lack of insight, I would suggest considering that they acknowledged Burke's "Munster Roman Catholic stock" and still decided to label him Anglo-Irish. This is strong evidence that the term is not as narrow as you claim.
Your four sources aren't very persuasive as to Anglo-Irish not being the preferred term, the second one doesn't label him Irish anywhere I can see, and the third refers to him as British before Irish. Even if we were to acknowledge them, it would reinforce my point that this is a complicated issue, where the academic community is split and simply calling him Irish isn't suitable. Again an alternative might be to remove any reference to his ethnicity in the header and let the article on his life simply speak for itself, it's quite clear later on that Burke was ambiguous in his identity.
If we are simply trading sources though, here are another two that clearly include him as one of the most important figures in discussions of Anglo-Irish literature.
Britannica has a subheading dedicated to Burke in its discussion of Anglo-Irish literature. [3]
Again I should explain that my argument is not to deny his Irishness, he was absolutely born in Ireland, spoke a fair amount of Gaelic and expressed deep fondness for the land and people. However identity and ethnicity are extremely complicated and nuanced concepts, and a person can often identify with multiple labels. Burke was clearly one such case. I believe that Anglo-Irish captures this ambiguity far better than simply Irish.
If instead you refuse to discuss or try to understand the situation and simply revert my changes, you'll be in breach of WP:CON, where it is clearly the protocol to try and reach an evidence based consensus.
If you have the time I'd again recommend reading more widely on Burke's identity, most important for this discussion being Edmund Burke's Irish identities by Sean Patrick Donlan. At the moment all you seem to be biasedly edit warring, and oversimplifying the issue down to "Roman Catholic Stock".
Tchaikovskyflowers ( talk) 13:18, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
Burke was born and lived in Ireland making him Irish. Plus the vast majority of sources call him Irish. There's no conceivable way he is "British". PailSimon ( talk) 19:50, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
SeanEML ( talk) 20:25, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Edmund-Burke-British-philosopher-and-statesman https://www.encyclopedia.com/people/social-sciences-and-law/political-science-biographies/edmund-burke
If you are able to provide evidence that he is Irish to the exclusion of being British, then we can talk.
Kind regards, SeanEML ( talk) 20:28, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
SeanEML ( talk) 20:48, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
Interesting how SeanEML has stopped responding after being given the sources he requested, yet continues to edit war. This shows clear dishonesty and a blatant disregard for Wikipedia's rules. Should SeanEML be allowed to continue engaging in this sort of behavior? ComradeKublai ( talk) 02:23, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
I am leaving this here as a note on the Talk page because I fear I won't get the reference formatting correctly. F P Lock (volume 1), page 92, writes: "Burke told his readers that 'it is four years now since this enquiry was finished' (1757 preface), that is, in 1753." A footnote on this reads "To Shackleton, E.B. wrote more vaguely that 'it lay by me for a good while, and I at last ventured it out' (10 Aug 1757) [Oxford, Clarendon Press, 1998] Frank Lynch ( talk) 18:51, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
Useful section has been removed. Mediatelevitate ( talk) 14:22, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
We read the following: "On 12 March 1757, Burke married Jane Mary Nugent (1734–1812), daughter of Dr. Christopher Nugent, a Catholic physician who had provided him with medical treatment at Bath. Their son Richard was born on 9 February 1758 while an elder son, Christopher, died in infancy." Has Christopher been born before or immediately after their marriage, i.e., was he conceived out of wedlock? This seems unlikely in that sphere of society at that time. Yet, since Richard was born roughly 11 months after their marriage, Christopher could hardly have been "an elder son". FeliksK ( talk) 20:19, 1 May 2024 (UTC)