Economy of the Song dynasty has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Economy of the Song dynasty is part of the Song Dynasty series, a featured topic. This is identified as among the best series of articles produced by the Wikipedia community. If you can update or improve it, please do so. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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This article's Good Article promotion has been put on hold. During review, some issues were discovered that can be resolved without a major re-write. This is how the article, as of July 31, 2007, compares against the six good article criteria:
Please address these matters soon and then leave a note here showing how they have been resolved. After 48 hours the article should be reviewed again. If these issues are not addressed within 7 days, the article may be failed without further notice. Thank you for your work so far. — VanTucky (talk) 20:40, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Done It looks as if all the improvements have definitely been made. I'll call it good for GA now. Congrats! VanTucky (talk) 00:16, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
This article is pretty good, but it is missing a few crucial elements that would give the reader a better understanding of the nature of the Song economy.
The vitality and size of the Song economy was partially attributable to the emergence of what Twitchett called "the Fiscal State" in the latter half of the Tang dynasty, this moneterization of the economy and tax payment scheme should be mentioned. The economic growth of the Song dynasty was not merely a result of extensive growth (population increase), but was intensive in nature, characterized by greater specialization and rise in per capita income. Market forces played a greater role in the Song dynasty than in any dynasty which preceded it.
Foreign trade: You have to mention the state monopoly system of procurement for overseas items and how this was overseen by the Maritime Trade Supervisiorate (提舉市舶司). Non-luxury goods were taxed, while scheduled luxury goods were a government monopoly. This source of income became increasingly more important as the Southern Song had a reduced tax base and could only engage in international through maritime commerce. You have to distinguish between the means of capital formation for overseas ventures, which included private merchants and government funds, from the distribution system, which was regulated and, for certain items, a government monopoly.
Currency: Adoption of paper currency was spurred by a fiscal crisis, the issuance of money had always been used by the court to correct fiscal imbalances, but the Song's ability to adjust commodity prices through monetary policy had been reduced due to the greater influence of market forces in the economy. Diminishing seigniorage (sp?) and the shortage of coinage compelled the court to issue paper money.
You should also mention the creation of a commercial book market, as knowledge and information became commercialized and commodified to an unprecedented degree.
Steel & Iron: you mention Hartwell's assertion about total iron output (I think he stated something to the effect that it rivaled that of early industrial England) and use Wagner's article as a source, yet you don't mention that Wagner's article was written with the express purpose of showing how the basis of Hartwell's assumptions were unsubstantiated, and there was no precise way of quantifying iron output based on the tax receipts/quota receipts in the historical record.
The increase in production quotas for Hancheng were not a direct result of Bao Zheng's memorial, the increase occurred due to the establishment of a government mint, situated to take advantage of rich veins of ore that were present in the region (see Wagner, p. 183). Furthermore, Bao's memorial, although implicitly referring to a profit motive, was not concerned with "profits of the industry," he was writing about the unequal burden of the quota and ways of reducing government expenditure to acquire an equivalent amount of iron. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aas217 ( talk • contribs) 15:22, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Some resources:
Dennis Twitchett, Financial Administration Under the T’ang Dynasty (Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press, 1963) (essential for understanding economic aspects of the Tang-Song transition)
Richard von Glahn "Fountain of Fortune"
Billy K. L. So, Prosperity, Region, and Institutions in Maritime China: The South Fukien Pattern, 946–1368 (Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Asia Center, 2000)
cheers,
Aas217 ( talk) 08:19, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
I think the link to Robert Hartwell is pointing to the wrong Robert Hartwell.
2603:900A:120E:A00:F19C:35F:52AE:2B94 (
talk) 14:07, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
IMO, there are many important issues not dealt with. A lot of work still need to be done, without which, one cannot get a wholesome picture of economy in the Song Dynasty
Among them:
-- Gisling ( talk) 17:23, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
What's mean:
a book, article or...? -- Jann ( talk) 12:26, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
Much admiration to Qiushufang for energetic attention, but I worry about the form and content of many edits. The quote in the section on Economic crops is a good example. First, it does not concern the topic, second, it should be paraphrased, and third it seems to give two authors, one at the end of the quote and another in a note. I could give detailed explanations of other edits. ch ( talk)
The operation of these joint investment partnerships can be examined in a mathematical problem included in the Mathematical treatise in nine sections (Shu-shu chiu-chang) (1247 ed.) of Ch’in Chiu-shao (c.1202–61). Although the dealings it describes are perhaps more complex than those practiced a century earlier, it essentially deals with a kind of investment and division of profits that for sure would have been made in the twelfth if not also the eleventh century: a four-party partnership that collectively made an investment (of 424,000 strings of cash) in a Chinese trading venture to southeast Asia. Each party’s original investment consisted of precious metals like silver and gold and commodities like salt, paper, and monk certificates (and their accruing tax exemption). Yet the value of their individual investments varied considerably, as much as eightfold. Likewise, each party’s share of the profits varied greatly, evidently in proportion to its overall share in the total investment. While social and family ties may have shaped the circle of potential coinvestors, they affected little, if at all, an investor’s eventual share of the profits, or losses. [1]
— Joseph P. McDermott and Shiba Yoshinobu
References
Hello in good faith , I made modifications to that article about the size of the Song Economy; I was reverted by someone who contributed a lot for this article; I put a compromise in good faith then I see a new account who emerge from nowhere and it reversed me ; I have my doubts about the new user who emerged suddenly with 3 contributions only ; my argument is that we can’t describe the Song Economy as the largest in the world because simply we are not able to measure the GDP in that period of times . Second which type of GDP ( monetary or Purchase Power Parity ) ; in conclusion I believe to describe the Song Economy as one of the largest in the world is respectful , responsible, much more plausible and much less controversial. I hope we have a healthy interaction and the community decide . High Regards. SeriousHist ( talk) 16:27, 6 November 2023 (UTC) Qiushufang ( talk) Hy I wish you contribue here about this subject; Unfortunately looking at your talk page show there is a lot of complaints about your behavior with past articles with accusations of Vandalism; Have you anything to do with Esthertheprofessor ( talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by SeriousHist ( talk • contribs) 08:35, 7 November 2023 (UTC) - A History to the Modern World to 1815 by R.R Palmer and Joel Colton ISBN 0-07-04856-X pages 43/44 talked about the equality between the great civilizations of the period; there was no largest or wealthiest; it was a different time with different types of measures without the presence of a global power . This will only began to change in the age of discoveries and the full integration of a global economy slowly but surely. In addition Song China was unable to defend itself against the northern tribes who established an empire in North China in the 12th century Jin Dynasty or the Mongols who destroyed and occupied Northern China by 1215 then the whole of China Genghis Khan. SeriousHist ( talk) 09:04, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
Wikipedia has processes in place to mitigate the disruption caused by an influx of single-purpose editors: Consensus in many debates and discussions should ideally not be based upon number of votes, but upon policy-related points made by editors. In votes or vote-like discussions, new users may be disregarded or given significantly less weight, especially if there are many of them expressing the same opinion. Their comments may be tagged with a note pointing out that they have made few or no other edits outside of the discussion. A 2005 Arbitration Committee decision established: "For the purpose of dispute resolution when there is uncertainty whether a party is one user with sockpuppets or several users with similar editing habits they may be treated as one user with sockpuppets."[4]]. Plus your own talk page is abundant with conflicts with other user complaining of your bad behavior and disruptive editing ; in fact 3/4 of your talk page is about conflict with other editors so we have a pattern here. /info/en/?search=User_talk:Qiushufang
-These accounts surged from nowhere following your revert specially Esthertheprofessor; anyway I welcome you here and I wished you didn’t wait for my many messages to do it ; I hope we have a good interaction but I will ask for an investigation regarding Esthertheprofessor regardless. SeriousHist ( talk) 10:06, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
First you removed that your assumption is based one one source which is the truth ; second Palmer said p 44 ( Many have asked why China did not generate as Europe , in these centuries the forces that led to the modern scientific and Industrial world, As for treadgold it is only Byzantine figures which I quoted and compare to the revenue of Song China in this article. I made the comparison using two sources. SeriousHist ( talk) 21:41, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
others are complaining of your behavior of reverting them, I m warning ⛔️ you about WP:OWN" ; you are removing everything I put : 1) when I describe you are using one source for your claims which is the truth 2) When I describe European achievements in comparaison to China they are a facts plus you don’t decide on reliability of Palmer 3) The description of Byzantine annual fiscal revenues is simply to compare them to the song revenues inside the song economy article. SeriousHist ( talk) 21:49, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
Economy of the Song dynasty has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Economy of the Song dynasty is part of the Song Dynasty series, a featured topic. This is identified as among the best series of articles produced by the Wikipedia community. If you can update or improve it, please do so. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article's Good Article promotion has been put on hold. During review, some issues were discovered that can be resolved without a major re-write. This is how the article, as of July 31, 2007, compares against the six good article criteria:
Please address these matters soon and then leave a note here showing how they have been resolved. After 48 hours the article should be reviewed again. If these issues are not addressed within 7 days, the article may be failed without further notice. Thank you for your work so far. — VanTucky (talk) 20:40, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Done It looks as if all the improvements have definitely been made. I'll call it good for GA now. Congrats! VanTucky (talk) 00:16, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
This article is pretty good, but it is missing a few crucial elements that would give the reader a better understanding of the nature of the Song economy.
The vitality and size of the Song economy was partially attributable to the emergence of what Twitchett called "the Fiscal State" in the latter half of the Tang dynasty, this moneterization of the economy and tax payment scheme should be mentioned. The economic growth of the Song dynasty was not merely a result of extensive growth (population increase), but was intensive in nature, characterized by greater specialization and rise in per capita income. Market forces played a greater role in the Song dynasty than in any dynasty which preceded it.
Foreign trade: You have to mention the state monopoly system of procurement for overseas items and how this was overseen by the Maritime Trade Supervisiorate (提舉市舶司). Non-luxury goods were taxed, while scheduled luxury goods were a government monopoly. This source of income became increasingly more important as the Southern Song had a reduced tax base and could only engage in international through maritime commerce. You have to distinguish between the means of capital formation for overseas ventures, which included private merchants and government funds, from the distribution system, which was regulated and, for certain items, a government monopoly.
Currency: Adoption of paper currency was spurred by a fiscal crisis, the issuance of money had always been used by the court to correct fiscal imbalances, but the Song's ability to adjust commodity prices through monetary policy had been reduced due to the greater influence of market forces in the economy. Diminishing seigniorage (sp?) and the shortage of coinage compelled the court to issue paper money.
You should also mention the creation of a commercial book market, as knowledge and information became commercialized and commodified to an unprecedented degree.
Steel & Iron: you mention Hartwell's assertion about total iron output (I think he stated something to the effect that it rivaled that of early industrial England) and use Wagner's article as a source, yet you don't mention that Wagner's article was written with the express purpose of showing how the basis of Hartwell's assumptions were unsubstantiated, and there was no precise way of quantifying iron output based on the tax receipts/quota receipts in the historical record.
The increase in production quotas for Hancheng were not a direct result of Bao Zheng's memorial, the increase occurred due to the establishment of a government mint, situated to take advantage of rich veins of ore that were present in the region (see Wagner, p. 183). Furthermore, Bao's memorial, although implicitly referring to a profit motive, was not concerned with "profits of the industry," he was writing about the unequal burden of the quota and ways of reducing government expenditure to acquire an equivalent amount of iron. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aas217 ( talk • contribs) 15:22, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Some resources:
Dennis Twitchett, Financial Administration Under the T’ang Dynasty (Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press, 1963) (essential for understanding economic aspects of the Tang-Song transition)
Richard von Glahn "Fountain of Fortune"
Billy K. L. So, Prosperity, Region, and Institutions in Maritime China: The South Fukien Pattern, 946–1368 (Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Asia Center, 2000)
cheers,
Aas217 ( talk) 08:19, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
I think the link to Robert Hartwell is pointing to the wrong Robert Hartwell.
2603:900A:120E:A00:F19C:35F:52AE:2B94 (
talk) 14:07, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
IMO, there are many important issues not dealt with. A lot of work still need to be done, without which, one cannot get a wholesome picture of economy in the Song Dynasty
Among them:
-- Gisling ( talk) 17:23, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
What's mean:
a book, article or...? -- Jann ( talk) 12:26, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
Much admiration to Qiushufang for energetic attention, but I worry about the form and content of many edits. The quote in the section on Economic crops is a good example. First, it does not concern the topic, second, it should be paraphrased, and third it seems to give two authors, one at the end of the quote and another in a note. I could give detailed explanations of other edits. ch ( talk)
The operation of these joint investment partnerships can be examined in a mathematical problem included in the Mathematical treatise in nine sections (Shu-shu chiu-chang) (1247 ed.) of Ch’in Chiu-shao (c.1202–61). Although the dealings it describes are perhaps more complex than those practiced a century earlier, it essentially deals with a kind of investment and division of profits that for sure would have been made in the twelfth if not also the eleventh century: a four-party partnership that collectively made an investment (of 424,000 strings of cash) in a Chinese trading venture to southeast Asia. Each party’s original investment consisted of precious metals like silver and gold and commodities like salt, paper, and monk certificates (and their accruing tax exemption). Yet the value of their individual investments varied considerably, as much as eightfold. Likewise, each party’s share of the profits varied greatly, evidently in proportion to its overall share in the total investment. While social and family ties may have shaped the circle of potential coinvestors, they affected little, if at all, an investor’s eventual share of the profits, or losses. [1]
— Joseph P. McDermott and Shiba Yoshinobu
References
Hello in good faith , I made modifications to that article about the size of the Song Economy; I was reverted by someone who contributed a lot for this article; I put a compromise in good faith then I see a new account who emerge from nowhere and it reversed me ; I have my doubts about the new user who emerged suddenly with 3 contributions only ; my argument is that we can’t describe the Song Economy as the largest in the world because simply we are not able to measure the GDP in that period of times . Second which type of GDP ( monetary or Purchase Power Parity ) ; in conclusion I believe to describe the Song Economy as one of the largest in the world is respectful , responsible, much more plausible and much less controversial. I hope we have a healthy interaction and the community decide . High Regards. SeriousHist ( talk) 16:27, 6 November 2023 (UTC) Qiushufang ( talk) Hy I wish you contribue here about this subject; Unfortunately looking at your talk page show there is a lot of complaints about your behavior with past articles with accusations of Vandalism; Have you anything to do with Esthertheprofessor ( talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by SeriousHist ( talk • contribs) 08:35, 7 November 2023 (UTC) - A History to the Modern World to 1815 by R.R Palmer and Joel Colton ISBN 0-07-04856-X pages 43/44 talked about the equality between the great civilizations of the period; there was no largest or wealthiest; it was a different time with different types of measures without the presence of a global power . This will only began to change in the age of discoveries and the full integration of a global economy slowly but surely. In addition Song China was unable to defend itself against the northern tribes who established an empire in North China in the 12th century Jin Dynasty or the Mongols who destroyed and occupied Northern China by 1215 then the whole of China Genghis Khan. SeriousHist ( talk) 09:04, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
Wikipedia has processes in place to mitigate the disruption caused by an influx of single-purpose editors: Consensus in many debates and discussions should ideally not be based upon number of votes, but upon policy-related points made by editors. In votes or vote-like discussions, new users may be disregarded or given significantly less weight, especially if there are many of them expressing the same opinion. Their comments may be tagged with a note pointing out that they have made few or no other edits outside of the discussion. A 2005 Arbitration Committee decision established: "For the purpose of dispute resolution when there is uncertainty whether a party is one user with sockpuppets or several users with similar editing habits they may be treated as one user with sockpuppets."[4]]. Plus your own talk page is abundant with conflicts with other user complaining of your bad behavior and disruptive editing ; in fact 3/4 of your talk page is about conflict with other editors so we have a pattern here. /info/en/?search=User_talk:Qiushufang
-These accounts surged from nowhere following your revert specially Esthertheprofessor; anyway I welcome you here and I wished you didn’t wait for my many messages to do it ; I hope we have a good interaction but I will ask for an investigation regarding Esthertheprofessor regardless. SeriousHist ( talk) 10:06, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
First you removed that your assumption is based one one source which is the truth ; second Palmer said p 44 ( Many have asked why China did not generate as Europe , in these centuries the forces that led to the modern scientific and Industrial world, As for treadgold it is only Byzantine figures which I quoted and compare to the revenue of Song China in this article. I made the comparison using two sources. SeriousHist ( talk) 21:41, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
others are complaining of your behavior of reverting them, I m warning ⛔️ you about WP:OWN" ; you are removing everything I put : 1) when I describe you are using one source for your claims which is the truth 2) When I describe European achievements in comparaison to China they are a facts plus you don’t decide on reliability of Palmer 3) The description of Byzantine annual fiscal revenues is simply to compare them to the song revenues inside the song economy article. SeriousHist ( talk) 21:49, 2 January 2024 (UTC)