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A request for the assistance of the Mediation caba was made. The case can be seen at Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2007-09-02 Economy of Paris-- Pheonix15 16:44, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
To the anonymous user who keeps vandalising this page (using IP 82.35.100.95, 82.35.100.238, and 80.195.235.28): please read carefully the text you have repeatedly removed. Greater London plus all the NUTS2 regions around it is much larger than the metropolitan area of London. It includes Oxford, Newbury, Chichester, Folkestone, Ramsgate, Cochester, etc, which no definiton of the London metropolitan area ever include in the metropolitan area. To say that the global GDP of all these NUTS2 regions is the GDP of the metropolitan area of London is simply an exageration, and that's why I call it vandalism, whereas the text in the article gives two numbers, one for Greater London alone, and one for Greater London plus all the NUTS2 regions around it, and makes it clear that the real figure for the metropolitan area is somewhere in between, but where exactly it is not possible to say. So please stop removing this. Hardouin 12:57, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
In my humble opinion, this section has nothing to do in an article about Paris economy. If you're interested in the topic, this could indeed make a proper Wikipedia article which could indeed be linked to Paris economy article, however it doesn't describe what Paris economy is about and as such I consider that specific section as off topic. As such, I'm inclined to remove it. If you really want to keep it, then explain me why wouldn't it be a proper article. Metropolitan 17:57, 15 March 2005 (CET)
Okay, I'm sick about people vandalizing this page with silly datas. There is no official metropolitan areas for London. That's specifically for that reason that I consider such kind of ranking as totally out of place. Indeed, there are estimations of London metro area at 14 million people, others at 11 million people, it goes in all direction. Once the metropolitan area is something in itself which is backed by no relevant data, how its GDP could be ?
In my humble opinion. No ranking should be given at all. Metropolitan areas are very subjective statistics as they are based on national datas (which don't even exist in the specific case of London) and aren't meant for international comparisons. We can simply say that "Paris metro area is among world's largests". There's no need to fight to know whether its ranking figure is "5" or "6". Furthermore, I wouldn't be surprized that both Paris and London will be overtaken by Hong Kong, Shanghai and Beijing in the next 10 years to come.
Metropolitan 10:41, 17 March 2005 (CET)
This anonymous user, after being warned of blocking his IP address, has finally provided some references, instead of merely vandalising the article without justification. The reference provided comes from the GEMACA II study. This study, although very interesting, is, well, just a study and not an official figure. Different studies by different private research groups will yield different numbers, therefore one cannot use the GEMACA II study to "prove" that the GDP of the London metropolitan area is higher than the GDP of the Paris metropolitan area. In the absence of official definitions, the GEMACA II research group have their definition of the London metropolitan area, and other research groups would have other definitions. At the moment, in the absence of official figures, it is best to leave it as it is already in the little table in the article, where there are listed two figures in between which lies the GDP of London metro area. Hardouin 10:57, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Someone needs to examine the competing claims of the two anonymous editors about whether the GDP of Paris is ranked 5th or 6th. Tom Harrison Talk 17:27, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Not only the conflicting edit between two anon IP's; the 'defender' IP is a blacklisted AOL proxy. In seeing the low contributor traffic this article gets, it is highly likely that the proxy is being used by an already-contributing editor as a means to circumvent the WP:3RR rule. THEPROMENADER 11:59, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
It has been mentioned many times before in other Paris articles that, although the Île-de-France and the Paris aire urbaine are similar in size, they are definitely not interchangeable as this article would suggest. The INSEE aire urbaine statistical area has an only very limited statistics-only use in France, and only consensus data is taken there; economical data is calculated in France's départements and régions, so it is wrong that this article suggests otherwise. The data for a "Paris metropolitan area economy" is not only "not available": it does not exist.
As for the chart, the base of an almost year-long revert war: this is just silly. First off, the (inexistant) "Paris metropolitan area GDP" is linked to Île-de-France GDP figures as a source, and secondly, there exists no London metropolitan area, and certainly not any economical data for the same, as would convey the vague 'between' figures next to this equally nonexistant area.
Also, "metropolitan area" has never been an official translation of aire urbaine in any documentation I've seen, so it would be kind of the contributor of this to provide a confirming source.
Although the article does link to
Île-de-France and
Paris aire urbaine sources, interchanging these or making misleading statements about their origins/importance, with and in addition to all the above, amounts to
original research. This article could use some knowledgable attention for sure.
THEPROMENADER 14:56, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Hello - will the user of the blacklisted AOL proxy 195.93.102.35 please desist from using such means to avoid the WP:3RR rule? It is quite obvious who it is. Thank you. THEPROMENADER 20:30, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Ah, Promenader making accusation here now. Aren't you happy to already fill the talk pages at Paris and List of tallest buildings and structures in Paris with lengthy accusations? Do you have to make accusations in every Paris-related article? So this time it's Metropolitan who is targeted. You really don't like this guy, do you? Metropolitan, you should be aware that Promenader has filled a complaint against you at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Economy of Paris. For all I know, since we're making accusations, if IP 195.93.102.35 is Metropolitan trying to bypass the 3RR, then IP 82.35.101.215 could very well be you, Promenader, also trying to bypass the 3RR. You've been spending the last year doing your best to belittle Paris in every Paris-related article, so I wouldn't be surprised if that anonymous IP address was you trying again to belittle Paris by placing it below London. Or perhaps it's more Macchiavelian, perhaps you're simply generating an edit war in an attempt to discredit the article, which seems to have worked out (cf. the tag placed on top of the article). Simply put, Promenader, don't make accusations lest you be prepared to have your own behavior called into question and investigated. Metropolitan, if you feel this accusation against you was offensive, feel free to file a complaint against Promenader on the incident noticeboard. I think that's the only way to stop him using smearing tactics. Hardouin 11:56, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Dissuasive language, until I thought it better to complain. This page has no mention of any problem with Metropolitan and myself, but it would seem that you are doing your best to invent one. What is your goal here? The anon AOL proxy is not he, I know it is not he, so why are you protesting so much? THEPROMENADER 13:25, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Since there exists neither a London metropolitan area (or GDP data thereof) nor a Paris metropolitan area GDP, the subject of this months-long revert war was pretty pointless: both positions are Original Research, and because of this, unverifiable. In other words, this battle is not only pointless, but endless.
In this page alone, all the "metropolitan area GDP" with citations link to Île-de-France INSEE figures - this is wrong, and not only purposefully misleading, but Original Research as well. The aire urbaine statistical area is only used for collecting census data, and economy data is only collected (calculated) in départements and régions - stick to fact please.
Even the term "metropolitan area" as a translation of aire urbaine is doubtful and misleading, as the French INSEE aire urbaine statistical area has little to do with its North American counterpart in concept nor calculation. Also, the term "Paris metropolitan area" is to be found nowhere in any English INSEE documentation as a translation of aire urbaine - they use the term "Paris area" instead. In addition to being Original Research, this inventive translation aims to cater to a master schema quite contrary to Wiki "follow local conventions" naming conventions.
THEPROMENADER 07:34, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
User:Hardouin, why are you reverting? Theories based on fact are not fact - they are theories - and Wiki is not interested in any Wikipedian's theories. If the box is not Original Research, provide some links to Paris metropolitan area GDP or Paris aire urbaine GDP figures please. THEPROMENADER 12:51, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
What is wrong in asking for fact? If you could prove your assertations were fact, you would have satisfied my question and the discussion would end - but instead I get excited vitriol as a reply. I don't see any cause for such fuss. Anyhow I've better things to do with my lunchtime. THEPROMENADER 13:30, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
But I don't see any Paris metropolitan area GDP figures. What do you mean? THEPROMENADER 14:26, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
ThePromenader, you should really stop your silly habit consisting in attempting to marginalize people you disagree with. This can only antagonize oppositions and that is certainly not what Wikipedia needs. I have enough of those little tricks and those little moves which do not help anyone to enforce his opinion but on the contrary which simply generate pure rivalries. Simply stop your argument about Ile-de-France and the Paris metropolitan area. Knowing that the metro area is marginally more populated and more urban than is Ile-de-France, the conclusion can only be that the Ile-de-France GDP is an estimation of the metro area GDP which is marginally inferior to it.
My problem with this ranking is that it has no significant meaning in this article. Granted, Hardouin, you want to say that the Paris metro area is very powerful worldwide, and that only a few metro areas are more than Paris. You read a lot more about this than I do and I can only trust you on your conclusion. What disturbs me though is that I don't believe any ranking is necessary to come up to that conclusion.
Those rankings, knowing that they are based on different national definitions of metropolitan areas can't make any consensus. There is no standardized datas to back up this, to say which one has the biggest economies and in which order. As such, I think it's probably better to simply say that the Paris metro area is one of the few generating a GDP over 500 billion dollars or something similar, and that's it. You would have already proven your point that Paris is economically something very important in this world.
The problem with rankings when it deals about non-standardized datas is that they necessarily lead in opposing people having other non-standardized datas saying that their place should be better ranked. Wikipedia should be above that kind of rivalries... especially when they deal about marginal differences such as it's the case for London and Paris. And the fact that your datas come from national official publications which is not the case of the anonymous user don't change much, as that table invites in itself to that kind of opposition.
Frankly, this article about the economy of Paris would earn more legitimacy and as such more visibility without this table ranking non standardized datas. If we get over this, perhaps this article could finally move forward as it is currently rather incomplete.
As for the anonymous user constantly adding his petty London claims, all his IP should be banned. If he has something to say, than he should register to express it. Metropolitan 16:24, 19 september 2006 (UTC).
(edit conflict) I guess we can safely assume that Paris metropolitan area GDP statistics do not exist. THEPROMENADER 01:21, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
No, no and no. If there are no GDP figures for any "metropolitan area", one cannot cross-calculate numbers on his own to make the term fit and still call it fact - especially through calculations based on data so non-sequitur as land area and population - GDP is calculated on the number of businesses, and the revenues thereof, within a given territory, not land and population. If one insists on using the aire urbaine as a base for GDP, he will have to do the data gathering in the said area himself, as no fiscal data has ever been taken only in the wedge of extra-IDF territory covered by the AU.
This sort of maniplation is the very example of Original Research. Because it is in error, is Original Research and unverifiable, it is of no factual nor informative use to anyone. Certainly not to Wiki. THEPROMENADER 18:34, 19 September 2006 (UTC) (revised 09:03, 20 September 2006 (UTC))
Problem resolved - I have inserted the figures based on the Eurostat definition for Larger Urban Zone. Eurostat is neutral and not involved in any of these debates. INSEE has also agreed to the new harmonized Eurostat definitions. It would be useful if one would start following Eurostat's urban defintions (such as the one of Larger Urban Zone when talking about metropolitan areas). Something tells me that the table will be removed for sure now :) JGG 23:48, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Another thing, this comparison with the Brazilian economy, ouch. Ever heard of PPP? When one compares economies of highly developed countries such as France with average developed countries such as Brazil, the appropriate measure is PPP adjusted GDP numbers. Anybody who has ever been to Brazil will understand that this claim about the Paris economy being larger than the Brazil economy is arrogant, to say the least. Ditto for the Russia comparison. JGG 23:55, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
The more I think about it, the more I think this table needs a serious footnote. PPP is equally important for cities than for countries. Why? Take the example for countries first. If Brazil produces 100 breads costing $.10 each and France produces 100 breads costing $.40 each (because of differences in labour cost and other input costs), then the nominal GDP of France will be four times the nominal GDP of Brazil. Yet the real GDP is the same. The same goes for cities. Differences in real estate prices feed through into labour costs. Hence a Big Mac may cost more in London or Tokyo than in Paris. If GDP only consisted of Big Macs and assuming all cities produce the same amount of Big Macs, does it really mean the Tokyo or London economy is larger than the economy of Paris? No it is just a measuring difference. Also no surprise that Osake is so high on the list. It does not mean I would erase the table, but I would suggest to put it in the right context. There is a relevancy of starting to calculate and measure the economies of alpha cities as indeed they have a higher correlation one with another than with the country they belong to. JGG 16:02, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
I just read this part of the intro: "The tourism industry, for instance, employs only 3.6% [3] of the total workforce of the metropolitan area (AU) (as of 1999) and is by no means a major component of the economy. The Paris economy is essentially a service economy. Its manufacturing base is still important, the Paris metropolitan area remaining one of the manufacturing powerhouses of Europe, but it is declining, while there is a clear shift of the Paris economy towards high value-added services, in particular business services."
If tourism is not a crucial economic sector in Paris, I wonder in which other city it would be. The rest this paragraph gets the reader confused. 1) Paris is a service economy 2) Paris is a manufacturing powerhouse 3) Paris is becoming a service industry.
So would it not be better to say: "The Paris economy is well balanced between manufacturing and services, with an ongoing shift towards services and high added value industries. For instance, tourism is an important contributor to the Paris economy, but it employing only 3.6% of the the total workforce of the metropolitan area (AU) (as of 1999) shows how balanced the Paris economy really is."
Opinions appreciated. JGG 15:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
So what can be improved? First off, I still have doubts on that table - I'm still persuaded that the data within is rather apples to oranges, or in any case, certainly not based on anything that can be called a "metropolitan area". The Tokyo and Osaka "県" is certainly not this and, again, there is no Paris AU GDP. Isn't there a similar study somewhere that can be sourced directly?
As for the comparisons... I would agree that, as they are, these seem trumpeting simply because they have no context. Comparisons are useful in describing national/international market evolution (eg. the Paris region WWI - WWII machine and motor industry and its role in the European economy/production, now moving to services), but "bigger than that country" is pointless - especially when the reader doesn't have a clue about the economy of the compared-to country.
If anything, this article should be rewritten in using terms and regions used by the economists of its own country - this is the only way it can be verifiable. Any "bending" of names and figures to the goal of international comparison, unless it is a direct citation of a respectable reference doing the same, smacks of original research. In short, this article should place the numbers where they are, and not be an exercise bent to a "greater schema" of international comparison.
How do English references speak of the Paris Economy? There should be the guideline, methinks, as it bypasses all "international understanding" arguments forwarded thus far. I have the 2006 Britannica - Time for a gander. THEPROMENADER 15:42, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
So London has finally overcome Paris ? Well, at least the French had the fair-play to say that Paris and London were equal, and didn't push into figures examination and manipulation in order to put their city above the other by all means. Anyway, the external link that gives the GDP of London doesn't seem to work all right, can it be fixed ? Enmerkar 17:45, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Some new Wiki member just reverted the table in order that Paris the Paris economy would appear larger than the London economy.
The more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion this table is meaningless.
Firstly, there is the debate about what the "city defintion" should be. If we compare on basis of the administrative city definitions, the Paris economy would get a much lower ranking. Yet, I think it is fair to look beyond administrative levels and I think most of us could live with the IdF being used as base. But then the Parisians need to allow the same to happen for other cities. So that is why for London we now use the Larger Urban Zone, which is still considerable smaller than the IdF in terms of surface and marginally larger in terms of population. When Eurostat compares between cities, it will take the IdF for Paris as its LUZ and for London it takes Greater London plus a few home counties as LUZ. On that basis one should allow London to come up in the table with the GDP for its LUZ. There are other studies that come up with much higher numbers for London and I can quote these if you are interested but I think this is a fair comparison as it uses the neutral Eurostat methodology.
Secondly, the table does not consider cost of living. London and Oasaka may actually have a lower GDP than Paris on a PPP adjusted basis (I am pretty sure they have).
Thirdly, the table does not really contribute anything. Why not say that Paris is one of 10 largest city economies globally and that is it. We'll be able to argue perpetually whether it is no 3 or 8 or whatever.
So I reverted the table for it to be at least factually correct. But we really need to ask ourselves the question whether we should keep this table. Also the comparisons with Brazil and Russia are unhelpful because on a PPP adjusted basis these economies are multiples of the Paris economy. On top of that it reads as quite belittling to anybody from these countries. Can we please have a discussion here before we start changing the text? JGG 10:16, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
This is the current intro:
-- The metropolitan area of Paris is one of the engines of the global economy. In 2003 the GDP of the metropolitan area (Ile de France) of Paris as calculated by INSEE was US$513.4 billion [1] (at real exchange rates, not at PPP). If it were a country, the metropolitan area (IdF) of Paris would be the 14th largest economy in the world (as of 2003)[2], above Brazil (US$492.3 billion) [2] and Russia (US$432.9 billion) [2].
Although in terms of population the Paris metropolitan area is only approximately the 20th largest metropolitan area in the world, its GDP is the sixth largest in the world after the metropolitan areas of Tokyo, New York, Los Angeles, Osaka and London.
The economy of Paris is extremely diverse and has not yet adopted a specialization inside the global economy (unlike Los Angeles with the entertainment industry, or London and New York with financial services). The tourism industry, for instance, employs only 3.6% [3] of the total workforce of the metropolitan area (AU) (as of 1999) and is by no means a major component of the economy. The Paris economy is essentially a service economy. Its manufacturing base is still important, the Paris metropolitan area remaining one of the manufacturing powerhouses of Europe, but it is declining, while there is a clear shift of the Paris economy towards high value-added services, in particular business services. --
I think does intro read very badly and contains a lot of illogical sequences such as the argument that Paris is essentially a service industry but then that it is a manufacturing powerhouse in Europea at the same time.
Why not write it the following way:
-- The metropolitan area of Paris is one of the leading city economies in the world, alongside the other alpha cities such as New York, London, Tokyo, etc. In 2003 the GDP of the metropolitan area (Ile de France) of Paris as calculated by INSEE was US$513.4 billion [1]. This GDP puts Paris well into the top ten city economies globally and if it were a country, the metropolitan area (IdF) of Paris would be the 14th largest economy in the world as of 2003 (at real exchange rates, not at PPP).
The economy of Paris is extremely diverse and has not yet adopted the same degree of specialization as other cities such as Los Angeles with the entertainment industry or London and New York with financial services. Yet, Paris has positioned itself as a global beacon in industries such as fashion and luxury goods. Paris' economy has both a domestic and international dimension and is essentially a service industry, although it still has pockets of manufacturing industry, mainly in high-added-value areas.
The Paris service economy benfits from its position in France where it faces no true domestic competition. Paris benefits form an excellent internal transportation system and excellent links to the rest of Europe, Paris also being the most important node on the European high-speed-train network and the second largest European airport hub. In recent history, Paris has known an extended period of rapid economic growth following the second world war but has faced slower growth during the 90s and early 00s, contributing to a serious unemployment problem. Yet the Paris economy has been outperforming the French and eurozone economies and is currently growing strongly again.
--
I'd love to have comments on this. To me it seems less of a propoganda text and much more credible and balanced JGG 10:50, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
As proven a thousand times already, "Metropolitan area" isn't and has never been a translation of "aire urbaine" [8] - this is just a creation of Hardouin's wishful thinking: If the INSEE doesn't use this term, I don't see how a single wikipedian can think himself immune to and better than this simple fact. What's more, as repeated thousands of times before, French economic data is collected and calculated in the country's administrative regions - meaning communes, départments and régions - not commuter belt areas - so there is no "aire urbaine GDP" possible, no matter how inventively one "translates" it. Come to think of it, I'd better check up on the usage there too.
One cannot modify fact to match his own inventive pet phrase and it as fact itself; this is a bras d'honneur to Wiki readers and contributors alike. Get real, please. THEPROMENADER 09:03, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
And why you wan't use the term "metropolitan area" for a better comprehensebility. We agree that aire urbaine and metropolitan area a bit different but in your way at no cities outside North America can use this term. So foreign don't know Ile de France or aire urbaine and the aire urbaine of Paris is 99% of Ile de France, for a better comprehensebility I don't see why we couldn't use the term "metropolitan area" Minato ku 19:14, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
One really can't correct any article if it was "created" by Hardouin. You reverted - for a fourth time in not even 25h - even the spelling corrections I brought to the page (it's "electro-medical" and "equipment" - "equipments" isn't English). You also reinstated non-existent "aire urbaine GDP" figures that are just a proven fabrication of your own - proven wrong and exposed by more than myself - so you revert not only to pure fabrication, but against consensus. What's more, you comment your revert "(Please leave the original version while admins are investigating the case.)" - this is just an intentional smokescreen blown at the ignorant, as there is no admin "investigation" at all about any of this. Now you're just intentionally taking the piss - again - and not even trying to hide it. THEPROMENADER 22:29, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
We can be sure that this article will be reverted once again around 15:00 today, but first a couple glib notes about what will be reverted to.
I can't make it any simpler. Good day. THEPROMENADER 11:16, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
The article has been protected in its present form for 1 week to allow editors to cool down and discuss their concerns here, on the discussion page. JodyB yak, yak, yak 16:11, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
The fact that "metropolitan area" has never been the official term used to describe the Paris aire urbaine, and the fact that "urban area" is the official translation for the same term, has been made clear several (hundred) times already [18]. I am once again inserting the correct and official terms used in the references indicated - this is the correct thing to do, so please stop the repeated reverting to wishful "greater scheme" WP:OR. Cheers.
THEPROMENADER 11:20, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Once again, User:Hardouin is blanket-reverting in spite of the facts present right there in front of him. The INSEE has never used "metropolitan area" as a translation of aire urbaine in any of their English-language documentation (amply available online in .pdf format on the site) - would he say that the entire very official government organisation who created the aire urbaine statistical area is - delusional? - because of this, and that it is he, Wikipedian, that knows best over even they? Please. THEPROMENADER 19:05, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
I will be editing the article tomorrow in light of today's Cabal decision, but withhold any such action tonight in the case that it be "gamed" as yet another revert. Thanks, and cheers to all. THEPROMENADER 23:32, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Corrections once again completed. Since all of Paris (and area) economy figures are collected in départements and régions, the subject of the article should be the same. There exists no "Paris metropolitan area GDP - or economy" so this inclusion in the introduction (besides its countering the agreed compromise) is improper. This article still reads like an advertisement for "Paris' might", and includes a table originating from a single source study that is not at all widely accepted as fact (especially when some of the countries mentioned within have no metropolitan area - London, for example - and definitions of the same differ widely), but let's leave it for now. THEPROMENADER 15:30, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
There is definitely a metropolitan area of Paris, 13,500 non-Wikipedia hits on Google for "Paris metropolitan area" ( [23]) and 10,100 non-Wikipedia hits for "metropolitan area of Paris" ( [24]). So can you please stop denying that there is such a thing as a metropolitan area of Paris? If there is such a thing as a metropolitan area of Paris, why exactly is it wrong to say in the introduction that this metropolitan area is one of the engines of the global economy? It is only your obsessive denial of French metropolitan areas, and particularly the Paris one, that creates all this mayhem and all this tension. Take a break from Wikipedia for a day or two, cool down, and come back with a fresh look. Thanks. Hardouin 14:57, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I reverted with very good reason. Fact, verifiability, sources, local customs but clarity - the version as it is is all this. "Paris" only and an unexplained definition of "urban area" belonging to another country isn't. Stop with the pigheaded tit for tat and think of the reader instead of yourself for once. THEPROMENADER 00:58, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
PS: It is alright to make compromises about whether to use a cited administrative or statistical area's proper name or its official translation, or to add extra explanations after the same for clarification, but not to twist the facts themselves. Paris' economy is the Paris region in all sources cited, and "pôle urbain" is the proper name of the area cited ("urban area" is France's official translation for aire urbaine - not at all the area discussed in the source cited); the former is fact true to reality and all references and citations, and the latter, in addition to following the lines of our agreement (to use original names instead of official translations, with added explanations), is not only true to Wikipedia naming conventions, but to basic common sense: one country's urban area is rarely the same as another's, and in this case, the urban area of that study and France's are not at all the same.
The present version is true to its facts and understandable by readers of all origins: for this and all of the above reasons I stand by this version and will continue to revert any further attempt to revert to a version that contains fact-muddling, name-switching, foreign-name-borrowing or any similar sort of disinformation. Cheers. THEPROMENADER 07:14, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Nota: I consider any further no-comment counter-protocol non-factual reverts as simple (pigheaded) vandalism. THEPROMENADER 19:17, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
User:Hardouin: "Letting another contribotor have it 'his way'" is not "behaving". Save the condescending tone, read the above, and stop with the pointless and pigheaded reaverts - all you do is diminish the article. THEPROMENADER 20:34, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
{{ editprotected}}
There is no reason to muddle the factual accuracy of this article. It was accurate in its former state.
a) Most references and citations for this article refer to the "île-de-France" region - official translation "Paris Region" [31] - for its statistics, and all of these consider the "Paris economy" to englobe a region bigger than the city itself, so there is no reason to falsely indicate that only the city itself is "an engine of the world economy" - this is simply not true. At best it is the centre of an engine of the world economy, but this is complicating things - "Paris region" is not only a precise description of the contents of this article; it is a term understandable by all readers, no matter their origin or level of knowledge!
b) The area discussed in the cited paper is the Paris pôle urbain - a core unité urbaine, officially translated "urban unit" [32]. The paper cited as a reference to the questionable term uses a language of its own, using an approximate international comparison method, destined to readers of another country than France. If France has its own precise appellation and official translation, the paper's translation is secondary to this and should only be provided as an explanation, not a proper name. In addition, "urban area" is France's official translation for its aire urbaine statistical area [33], so stating "urban area" as a proper name does not only trade a precise and proper name for a vague one, not only ignores Wikipedia conventions for placenames, but creates an outright falsehood. What's more, in the precedent version, "urban area" was provided as an explanation afterwards for further clarity, and the term remains present in the rest of the paragraph (concerning other countries), so there is absolutely no call to revert this!
This lame insistence on reverting to vague and misleading "proper names" stems from an earlier agreement to replace an inventive "greater scheme" naming method ("borrowing" terms from other countries describing areas sometimes not at all similar to France's definitions and methods) - it is a silly "tit for tat" effort by a single wikipedian to retain control over "his" article through any means possible, even if the "reverted-to" version counters all evident fact and logic, and this for no reason at all: this is a page-history-evident observation. Present in all articles "written" by the same author, this attitude is "grudge-silly" to the extreme and should cease immediately.
I can't put it any clearer. The article spent months without complaint in an accurate state, and there is not reason that it should not retain its accuracy. What's silliest in all this is that the article needs much improvement, yet because of one contributor it always takes months to get it away from the state "protected" by the same. For the sake of the article and the accuracy of Wikipedia, this silliness must end. THEPROMENADER 11:52, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't know what the dispute is here, but there doesn't seem to be consensus to make any changes. — Carl ( CBM · talk) 22:01, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
I find this article quite interesting but somewhat narrow. Could the article be made broader by talking about the infrastructure (roads, metro, number of airports and their sizes, TGV train stations, ...), stock market capitalization vs. other financial centers, global fortune 500 companies located in Paris vs. other cities, number of fashion houses vs. let's say Milan, London, New York. Also, it's interesting to know how the Paris is GDP stands vs. other cities (which seems to be a contentious issue) but it's also interesting to know how well the economy is doing vs. other regions in France, Europe, and the World. Also, I often hear that Paris is a big music recording center . It would be interesting to know if this is the case. Basically, I'm making a case for knowing a little bit what is inside the "manufacturing" and "tertiary sector" numbers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.73.121.27 ( talk) 14:07, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Paris 2 million people? That's only Paris intra-muros, i.e. the administrative City of Paris. It's like saying that Lyon has only 400,000 inhabitants and that the Satolas Airport is not part of the Lyon economy (it's part of the Colombier-Saugnieu village economy then?). Completely ridiculous! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.123.245.240 ( talk) 21:48, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
As far as I can see, this article contains data about the urban agglomeration of Paris and about the metropolitan area ("aire urbaine") of Paris, which are different from the Paris region. Only a few data refer specifically to the Paris region, so it would be a misnomer to call this article "Economy of the Paris region", given that many data in the article do not correspond to the Paris region. The name "Economy of Paris" is more generic and seems more proper. Olivier.Sr ( talk) 03:09, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
Is this article turning into a history of the Paris economy? If so, it should be renamed "History of the Paris economy". If the history section is not drastically summarized and its content moved to a separate article, I will formally ask administrators to rename this article "History of the Paris economy", so that the page name "Economy of Paris" can be used for an article about today's economy of Paris. Thank you. Der Statistiker ( talk) 01:50, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
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A request for the assistance of the Mediation caba was made. The case can be seen at Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2007-09-02 Economy of Paris-- Pheonix15 16:44, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
To the anonymous user who keeps vandalising this page (using IP 82.35.100.95, 82.35.100.238, and 80.195.235.28): please read carefully the text you have repeatedly removed. Greater London plus all the NUTS2 regions around it is much larger than the metropolitan area of London. It includes Oxford, Newbury, Chichester, Folkestone, Ramsgate, Cochester, etc, which no definiton of the London metropolitan area ever include in the metropolitan area. To say that the global GDP of all these NUTS2 regions is the GDP of the metropolitan area of London is simply an exageration, and that's why I call it vandalism, whereas the text in the article gives two numbers, one for Greater London alone, and one for Greater London plus all the NUTS2 regions around it, and makes it clear that the real figure for the metropolitan area is somewhere in between, but where exactly it is not possible to say. So please stop removing this. Hardouin 12:57, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
In my humble opinion, this section has nothing to do in an article about Paris economy. If you're interested in the topic, this could indeed make a proper Wikipedia article which could indeed be linked to Paris economy article, however it doesn't describe what Paris economy is about and as such I consider that specific section as off topic. As such, I'm inclined to remove it. If you really want to keep it, then explain me why wouldn't it be a proper article. Metropolitan 17:57, 15 March 2005 (CET)
Okay, I'm sick about people vandalizing this page with silly datas. There is no official metropolitan areas for London. That's specifically for that reason that I consider such kind of ranking as totally out of place. Indeed, there are estimations of London metro area at 14 million people, others at 11 million people, it goes in all direction. Once the metropolitan area is something in itself which is backed by no relevant data, how its GDP could be ?
In my humble opinion. No ranking should be given at all. Metropolitan areas are very subjective statistics as they are based on national datas (which don't even exist in the specific case of London) and aren't meant for international comparisons. We can simply say that "Paris metro area is among world's largests". There's no need to fight to know whether its ranking figure is "5" or "6". Furthermore, I wouldn't be surprized that both Paris and London will be overtaken by Hong Kong, Shanghai and Beijing in the next 10 years to come.
Metropolitan 10:41, 17 March 2005 (CET)
This anonymous user, after being warned of blocking his IP address, has finally provided some references, instead of merely vandalising the article without justification. The reference provided comes from the GEMACA II study. This study, although very interesting, is, well, just a study and not an official figure. Different studies by different private research groups will yield different numbers, therefore one cannot use the GEMACA II study to "prove" that the GDP of the London metropolitan area is higher than the GDP of the Paris metropolitan area. In the absence of official definitions, the GEMACA II research group have their definition of the London metropolitan area, and other research groups would have other definitions. At the moment, in the absence of official figures, it is best to leave it as it is already in the little table in the article, where there are listed two figures in between which lies the GDP of London metro area. Hardouin 10:57, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Someone needs to examine the competing claims of the two anonymous editors about whether the GDP of Paris is ranked 5th or 6th. Tom Harrison Talk 17:27, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Not only the conflicting edit between two anon IP's; the 'defender' IP is a blacklisted AOL proxy. In seeing the low contributor traffic this article gets, it is highly likely that the proxy is being used by an already-contributing editor as a means to circumvent the WP:3RR rule. THEPROMENADER 11:59, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
It has been mentioned many times before in other Paris articles that, although the Île-de-France and the Paris aire urbaine are similar in size, they are definitely not interchangeable as this article would suggest. The INSEE aire urbaine statistical area has an only very limited statistics-only use in France, and only consensus data is taken there; economical data is calculated in France's départements and régions, so it is wrong that this article suggests otherwise. The data for a "Paris metropolitan area economy" is not only "not available": it does not exist.
As for the chart, the base of an almost year-long revert war: this is just silly. First off, the (inexistant) "Paris metropolitan area GDP" is linked to Île-de-France GDP figures as a source, and secondly, there exists no London metropolitan area, and certainly not any economical data for the same, as would convey the vague 'between' figures next to this equally nonexistant area.
Also, "metropolitan area" has never been an official translation of aire urbaine in any documentation I've seen, so it would be kind of the contributor of this to provide a confirming source.
Although the article does link to
Île-de-France and
Paris aire urbaine sources, interchanging these or making misleading statements about their origins/importance, with and in addition to all the above, amounts to
original research. This article could use some knowledgable attention for sure.
THEPROMENADER 14:56, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Hello - will the user of the blacklisted AOL proxy 195.93.102.35 please desist from using such means to avoid the WP:3RR rule? It is quite obvious who it is. Thank you. THEPROMENADER 20:30, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Ah, Promenader making accusation here now. Aren't you happy to already fill the talk pages at Paris and List of tallest buildings and structures in Paris with lengthy accusations? Do you have to make accusations in every Paris-related article? So this time it's Metropolitan who is targeted. You really don't like this guy, do you? Metropolitan, you should be aware that Promenader has filled a complaint against you at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Economy of Paris. For all I know, since we're making accusations, if IP 195.93.102.35 is Metropolitan trying to bypass the 3RR, then IP 82.35.101.215 could very well be you, Promenader, also trying to bypass the 3RR. You've been spending the last year doing your best to belittle Paris in every Paris-related article, so I wouldn't be surprised if that anonymous IP address was you trying again to belittle Paris by placing it below London. Or perhaps it's more Macchiavelian, perhaps you're simply generating an edit war in an attempt to discredit the article, which seems to have worked out (cf. the tag placed on top of the article). Simply put, Promenader, don't make accusations lest you be prepared to have your own behavior called into question and investigated. Metropolitan, if you feel this accusation against you was offensive, feel free to file a complaint against Promenader on the incident noticeboard. I think that's the only way to stop him using smearing tactics. Hardouin 11:56, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Dissuasive language, until I thought it better to complain. This page has no mention of any problem with Metropolitan and myself, but it would seem that you are doing your best to invent one. What is your goal here? The anon AOL proxy is not he, I know it is not he, so why are you protesting so much? THEPROMENADER 13:25, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Since there exists neither a London metropolitan area (or GDP data thereof) nor a Paris metropolitan area GDP, the subject of this months-long revert war was pretty pointless: both positions are Original Research, and because of this, unverifiable. In other words, this battle is not only pointless, but endless.
In this page alone, all the "metropolitan area GDP" with citations link to Île-de-France INSEE figures - this is wrong, and not only purposefully misleading, but Original Research as well. The aire urbaine statistical area is only used for collecting census data, and economy data is only collected (calculated) in départements and régions - stick to fact please.
Even the term "metropolitan area" as a translation of aire urbaine is doubtful and misleading, as the French INSEE aire urbaine statistical area has little to do with its North American counterpart in concept nor calculation. Also, the term "Paris metropolitan area" is to be found nowhere in any English INSEE documentation as a translation of aire urbaine - they use the term "Paris area" instead. In addition to being Original Research, this inventive translation aims to cater to a master schema quite contrary to Wiki "follow local conventions" naming conventions.
THEPROMENADER 07:34, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
User:Hardouin, why are you reverting? Theories based on fact are not fact - they are theories - and Wiki is not interested in any Wikipedian's theories. If the box is not Original Research, provide some links to Paris metropolitan area GDP or Paris aire urbaine GDP figures please. THEPROMENADER 12:51, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
What is wrong in asking for fact? If you could prove your assertations were fact, you would have satisfied my question and the discussion would end - but instead I get excited vitriol as a reply. I don't see any cause for such fuss. Anyhow I've better things to do with my lunchtime. THEPROMENADER 13:30, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
But I don't see any Paris metropolitan area GDP figures. What do you mean? THEPROMENADER 14:26, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
ThePromenader, you should really stop your silly habit consisting in attempting to marginalize people you disagree with. This can only antagonize oppositions and that is certainly not what Wikipedia needs. I have enough of those little tricks and those little moves which do not help anyone to enforce his opinion but on the contrary which simply generate pure rivalries. Simply stop your argument about Ile-de-France and the Paris metropolitan area. Knowing that the metro area is marginally more populated and more urban than is Ile-de-France, the conclusion can only be that the Ile-de-France GDP is an estimation of the metro area GDP which is marginally inferior to it.
My problem with this ranking is that it has no significant meaning in this article. Granted, Hardouin, you want to say that the Paris metro area is very powerful worldwide, and that only a few metro areas are more than Paris. You read a lot more about this than I do and I can only trust you on your conclusion. What disturbs me though is that I don't believe any ranking is necessary to come up to that conclusion.
Those rankings, knowing that they are based on different national definitions of metropolitan areas can't make any consensus. There is no standardized datas to back up this, to say which one has the biggest economies and in which order. As such, I think it's probably better to simply say that the Paris metro area is one of the few generating a GDP over 500 billion dollars or something similar, and that's it. You would have already proven your point that Paris is economically something very important in this world.
The problem with rankings when it deals about non-standardized datas is that they necessarily lead in opposing people having other non-standardized datas saying that their place should be better ranked. Wikipedia should be above that kind of rivalries... especially when they deal about marginal differences such as it's the case for London and Paris. And the fact that your datas come from national official publications which is not the case of the anonymous user don't change much, as that table invites in itself to that kind of opposition.
Frankly, this article about the economy of Paris would earn more legitimacy and as such more visibility without this table ranking non standardized datas. If we get over this, perhaps this article could finally move forward as it is currently rather incomplete.
As for the anonymous user constantly adding his petty London claims, all his IP should be banned. If he has something to say, than he should register to express it. Metropolitan 16:24, 19 september 2006 (UTC).
(edit conflict) I guess we can safely assume that Paris metropolitan area GDP statistics do not exist. THEPROMENADER 01:21, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
No, no and no. If there are no GDP figures for any "metropolitan area", one cannot cross-calculate numbers on his own to make the term fit and still call it fact - especially through calculations based on data so non-sequitur as land area and population - GDP is calculated on the number of businesses, and the revenues thereof, within a given territory, not land and population. If one insists on using the aire urbaine as a base for GDP, he will have to do the data gathering in the said area himself, as no fiscal data has ever been taken only in the wedge of extra-IDF territory covered by the AU.
This sort of maniplation is the very example of Original Research. Because it is in error, is Original Research and unverifiable, it is of no factual nor informative use to anyone. Certainly not to Wiki. THEPROMENADER 18:34, 19 September 2006 (UTC) (revised 09:03, 20 September 2006 (UTC))
Problem resolved - I have inserted the figures based on the Eurostat definition for Larger Urban Zone. Eurostat is neutral and not involved in any of these debates. INSEE has also agreed to the new harmonized Eurostat definitions. It would be useful if one would start following Eurostat's urban defintions (such as the one of Larger Urban Zone when talking about metropolitan areas). Something tells me that the table will be removed for sure now :) JGG 23:48, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Another thing, this comparison with the Brazilian economy, ouch. Ever heard of PPP? When one compares economies of highly developed countries such as France with average developed countries such as Brazil, the appropriate measure is PPP adjusted GDP numbers. Anybody who has ever been to Brazil will understand that this claim about the Paris economy being larger than the Brazil economy is arrogant, to say the least. Ditto for the Russia comparison. JGG 23:55, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
The more I think about it, the more I think this table needs a serious footnote. PPP is equally important for cities than for countries. Why? Take the example for countries first. If Brazil produces 100 breads costing $.10 each and France produces 100 breads costing $.40 each (because of differences in labour cost and other input costs), then the nominal GDP of France will be four times the nominal GDP of Brazil. Yet the real GDP is the same. The same goes for cities. Differences in real estate prices feed through into labour costs. Hence a Big Mac may cost more in London or Tokyo than in Paris. If GDP only consisted of Big Macs and assuming all cities produce the same amount of Big Macs, does it really mean the Tokyo or London economy is larger than the economy of Paris? No it is just a measuring difference. Also no surprise that Osake is so high on the list. It does not mean I would erase the table, but I would suggest to put it in the right context. There is a relevancy of starting to calculate and measure the economies of alpha cities as indeed they have a higher correlation one with another than with the country they belong to. JGG 16:02, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
I just read this part of the intro: "The tourism industry, for instance, employs only 3.6% [3] of the total workforce of the metropolitan area (AU) (as of 1999) and is by no means a major component of the economy. The Paris economy is essentially a service economy. Its manufacturing base is still important, the Paris metropolitan area remaining one of the manufacturing powerhouses of Europe, but it is declining, while there is a clear shift of the Paris economy towards high value-added services, in particular business services."
If tourism is not a crucial economic sector in Paris, I wonder in which other city it would be. The rest this paragraph gets the reader confused. 1) Paris is a service economy 2) Paris is a manufacturing powerhouse 3) Paris is becoming a service industry.
So would it not be better to say: "The Paris economy is well balanced between manufacturing and services, with an ongoing shift towards services and high added value industries. For instance, tourism is an important contributor to the Paris economy, but it employing only 3.6% of the the total workforce of the metropolitan area (AU) (as of 1999) shows how balanced the Paris economy really is."
Opinions appreciated. JGG 15:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
So what can be improved? First off, I still have doubts on that table - I'm still persuaded that the data within is rather apples to oranges, or in any case, certainly not based on anything that can be called a "metropolitan area". The Tokyo and Osaka "県" is certainly not this and, again, there is no Paris AU GDP. Isn't there a similar study somewhere that can be sourced directly?
As for the comparisons... I would agree that, as they are, these seem trumpeting simply because they have no context. Comparisons are useful in describing national/international market evolution (eg. the Paris region WWI - WWII machine and motor industry and its role in the European economy/production, now moving to services), but "bigger than that country" is pointless - especially when the reader doesn't have a clue about the economy of the compared-to country.
If anything, this article should be rewritten in using terms and regions used by the economists of its own country - this is the only way it can be verifiable. Any "bending" of names and figures to the goal of international comparison, unless it is a direct citation of a respectable reference doing the same, smacks of original research. In short, this article should place the numbers where they are, and not be an exercise bent to a "greater schema" of international comparison.
How do English references speak of the Paris Economy? There should be the guideline, methinks, as it bypasses all "international understanding" arguments forwarded thus far. I have the 2006 Britannica - Time for a gander. THEPROMENADER 15:42, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
So London has finally overcome Paris ? Well, at least the French had the fair-play to say that Paris and London were equal, and didn't push into figures examination and manipulation in order to put their city above the other by all means. Anyway, the external link that gives the GDP of London doesn't seem to work all right, can it be fixed ? Enmerkar 17:45, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Some new Wiki member just reverted the table in order that Paris the Paris economy would appear larger than the London economy.
The more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion this table is meaningless.
Firstly, there is the debate about what the "city defintion" should be. If we compare on basis of the administrative city definitions, the Paris economy would get a much lower ranking. Yet, I think it is fair to look beyond administrative levels and I think most of us could live with the IdF being used as base. But then the Parisians need to allow the same to happen for other cities. So that is why for London we now use the Larger Urban Zone, which is still considerable smaller than the IdF in terms of surface and marginally larger in terms of population. When Eurostat compares between cities, it will take the IdF for Paris as its LUZ and for London it takes Greater London plus a few home counties as LUZ. On that basis one should allow London to come up in the table with the GDP for its LUZ. There are other studies that come up with much higher numbers for London and I can quote these if you are interested but I think this is a fair comparison as it uses the neutral Eurostat methodology.
Secondly, the table does not consider cost of living. London and Oasaka may actually have a lower GDP than Paris on a PPP adjusted basis (I am pretty sure they have).
Thirdly, the table does not really contribute anything. Why not say that Paris is one of 10 largest city economies globally and that is it. We'll be able to argue perpetually whether it is no 3 or 8 or whatever.
So I reverted the table for it to be at least factually correct. But we really need to ask ourselves the question whether we should keep this table. Also the comparisons with Brazil and Russia are unhelpful because on a PPP adjusted basis these economies are multiples of the Paris economy. On top of that it reads as quite belittling to anybody from these countries. Can we please have a discussion here before we start changing the text? JGG 10:16, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
This is the current intro:
-- The metropolitan area of Paris is one of the engines of the global economy. In 2003 the GDP of the metropolitan area (Ile de France) of Paris as calculated by INSEE was US$513.4 billion [1] (at real exchange rates, not at PPP). If it were a country, the metropolitan area (IdF) of Paris would be the 14th largest economy in the world (as of 2003)[2], above Brazil (US$492.3 billion) [2] and Russia (US$432.9 billion) [2].
Although in terms of population the Paris metropolitan area is only approximately the 20th largest metropolitan area in the world, its GDP is the sixth largest in the world after the metropolitan areas of Tokyo, New York, Los Angeles, Osaka and London.
The economy of Paris is extremely diverse and has not yet adopted a specialization inside the global economy (unlike Los Angeles with the entertainment industry, or London and New York with financial services). The tourism industry, for instance, employs only 3.6% [3] of the total workforce of the metropolitan area (AU) (as of 1999) and is by no means a major component of the economy. The Paris economy is essentially a service economy. Its manufacturing base is still important, the Paris metropolitan area remaining one of the manufacturing powerhouses of Europe, but it is declining, while there is a clear shift of the Paris economy towards high value-added services, in particular business services. --
I think does intro read very badly and contains a lot of illogical sequences such as the argument that Paris is essentially a service industry but then that it is a manufacturing powerhouse in Europea at the same time.
Why not write it the following way:
-- The metropolitan area of Paris is one of the leading city economies in the world, alongside the other alpha cities such as New York, London, Tokyo, etc. In 2003 the GDP of the metropolitan area (Ile de France) of Paris as calculated by INSEE was US$513.4 billion [1]. This GDP puts Paris well into the top ten city economies globally and if it were a country, the metropolitan area (IdF) of Paris would be the 14th largest economy in the world as of 2003 (at real exchange rates, not at PPP).
The economy of Paris is extremely diverse and has not yet adopted the same degree of specialization as other cities such as Los Angeles with the entertainment industry or London and New York with financial services. Yet, Paris has positioned itself as a global beacon in industries such as fashion and luxury goods. Paris' economy has both a domestic and international dimension and is essentially a service industry, although it still has pockets of manufacturing industry, mainly in high-added-value areas.
The Paris service economy benfits from its position in France where it faces no true domestic competition. Paris benefits form an excellent internal transportation system and excellent links to the rest of Europe, Paris also being the most important node on the European high-speed-train network and the second largest European airport hub. In recent history, Paris has known an extended period of rapid economic growth following the second world war but has faced slower growth during the 90s and early 00s, contributing to a serious unemployment problem. Yet the Paris economy has been outperforming the French and eurozone economies and is currently growing strongly again.
--
I'd love to have comments on this. To me it seems less of a propoganda text and much more credible and balanced JGG 10:50, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
As proven a thousand times already, "Metropolitan area" isn't and has never been a translation of "aire urbaine" [8] - this is just a creation of Hardouin's wishful thinking: If the INSEE doesn't use this term, I don't see how a single wikipedian can think himself immune to and better than this simple fact. What's more, as repeated thousands of times before, French economic data is collected and calculated in the country's administrative regions - meaning communes, départments and régions - not commuter belt areas - so there is no "aire urbaine GDP" possible, no matter how inventively one "translates" it. Come to think of it, I'd better check up on the usage there too.
One cannot modify fact to match his own inventive pet phrase and it as fact itself; this is a bras d'honneur to Wiki readers and contributors alike. Get real, please. THEPROMENADER 09:03, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
And why you wan't use the term "metropolitan area" for a better comprehensebility. We agree that aire urbaine and metropolitan area a bit different but in your way at no cities outside North America can use this term. So foreign don't know Ile de France or aire urbaine and the aire urbaine of Paris is 99% of Ile de France, for a better comprehensebility I don't see why we couldn't use the term "metropolitan area" Minato ku 19:14, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
One really can't correct any article if it was "created" by Hardouin. You reverted - for a fourth time in not even 25h - even the spelling corrections I brought to the page (it's "electro-medical" and "equipment" - "equipments" isn't English). You also reinstated non-existent "aire urbaine GDP" figures that are just a proven fabrication of your own - proven wrong and exposed by more than myself - so you revert not only to pure fabrication, but against consensus. What's more, you comment your revert "(Please leave the original version while admins are investigating the case.)" - this is just an intentional smokescreen blown at the ignorant, as there is no admin "investigation" at all about any of this. Now you're just intentionally taking the piss - again - and not even trying to hide it. THEPROMENADER 22:29, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
We can be sure that this article will be reverted once again around 15:00 today, but first a couple glib notes about what will be reverted to.
I can't make it any simpler. Good day. THEPROMENADER 11:16, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
The article has been protected in its present form for 1 week to allow editors to cool down and discuss their concerns here, on the discussion page. JodyB yak, yak, yak 16:11, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
The fact that "metropolitan area" has never been the official term used to describe the Paris aire urbaine, and the fact that "urban area" is the official translation for the same term, has been made clear several (hundred) times already [18]. I am once again inserting the correct and official terms used in the references indicated - this is the correct thing to do, so please stop the repeated reverting to wishful "greater scheme" WP:OR. Cheers.
THEPROMENADER 11:20, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Once again, User:Hardouin is blanket-reverting in spite of the facts present right there in front of him. The INSEE has never used "metropolitan area" as a translation of aire urbaine in any of their English-language documentation (amply available online in .pdf format on the site) - would he say that the entire very official government organisation who created the aire urbaine statistical area is - delusional? - because of this, and that it is he, Wikipedian, that knows best over even they? Please. THEPROMENADER 19:05, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
I will be editing the article tomorrow in light of today's Cabal decision, but withhold any such action tonight in the case that it be "gamed" as yet another revert. Thanks, and cheers to all. THEPROMENADER 23:32, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Corrections once again completed. Since all of Paris (and area) economy figures are collected in départements and régions, the subject of the article should be the same. There exists no "Paris metropolitan area GDP - or economy" so this inclusion in the introduction (besides its countering the agreed compromise) is improper. This article still reads like an advertisement for "Paris' might", and includes a table originating from a single source study that is not at all widely accepted as fact (especially when some of the countries mentioned within have no metropolitan area - London, for example - and definitions of the same differ widely), but let's leave it for now. THEPROMENADER 15:30, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
There is definitely a metropolitan area of Paris, 13,500 non-Wikipedia hits on Google for "Paris metropolitan area" ( [23]) and 10,100 non-Wikipedia hits for "metropolitan area of Paris" ( [24]). So can you please stop denying that there is such a thing as a metropolitan area of Paris? If there is such a thing as a metropolitan area of Paris, why exactly is it wrong to say in the introduction that this metropolitan area is one of the engines of the global economy? It is only your obsessive denial of French metropolitan areas, and particularly the Paris one, that creates all this mayhem and all this tension. Take a break from Wikipedia for a day or two, cool down, and come back with a fresh look. Thanks. Hardouin 14:57, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I reverted with very good reason. Fact, verifiability, sources, local customs but clarity - the version as it is is all this. "Paris" only and an unexplained definition of "urban area" belonging to another country isn't. Stop with the pigheaded tit for tat and think of the reader instead of yourself for once. THEPROMENADER 00:58, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
PS: It is alright to make compromises about whether to use a cited administrative or statistical area's proper name or its official translation, or to add extra explanations after the same for clarification, but not to twist the facts themselves. Paris' economy is the Paris region in all sources cited, and "pôle urbain" is the proper name of the area cited ("urban area" is France's official translation for aire urbaine - not at all the area discussed in the source cited); the former is fact true to reality and all references and citations, and the latter, in addition to following the lines of our agreement (to use original names instead of official translations, with added explanations), is not only true to Wikipedia naming conventions, but to basic common sense: one country's urban area is rarely the same as another's, and in this case, the urban area of that study and France's are not at all the same.
The present version is true to its facts and understandable by readers of all origins: for this and all of the above reasons I stand by this version and will continue to revert any further attempt to revert to a version that contains fact-muddling, name-switching, foreign-name-borrowing or any similar sort of disinformation. Cheers. THEPROMENADER 07:14, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Nota: I consider any further no-comment counter-protocol non-factual reverts as simple (pigheaded) vandalism. THEPROMENADER 19:17, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
User:Hardouin: "Letting another contribotor have it 'his way'" is not "behaving". Save the condescending tone, read the above, and stop with the pointless and pigheaded reaverts - all you do is diminish the article. THEPROMENADER 20:34, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
{{ editprotected}}
There is no reason to muddle the factual accuracy of this article. It was accurate in its former state.
a) Most references and citations for this article refer to the "île-de-France" region - official translation "Paris Region" [31] - for its statistics, and all of these consider the "Paris economy" to englobe a region bigger than the city itself, so there is no reason to falsely indicate that only the city itself is "an engine of the world economy" - this is simply not true. At best it is the centre of an engine of the world economy, but this is complicating things - "Paris region" is not only a precise description of the contents of this article; it is a term understandable by all readers, no matter their origin or level of knowledge!
b) The area discussed in the cited paper is the Paris pôle urbain - a core unité urbaine, officially translated "urban unit" [32]. The paper cited as a reference to the questionable term uses a language of its own, using an approximate international comparison method, destined to readers of another country than France. If France has its own precise appellation and official translation, the paper's translation is secondary to this and should only be provided as an explanation, not a proper name. In addition, "urban area" is France's official translation for its aire urbaine statistical area [33], so stating "urban area" as a proper name does not only trade a precise and proper name for a vague one, not only ignores Wikipedia conventions for placenames, but creates an outright falsehood. What's more, in the precedent version, "urban area" was provided as an explanation afterwards for further clarity, and the term remains present in the rest of the paragraph (concerning other countries), so there is absolutely no call to revert this!
This lame insistence on reverting to vague and misleading "proper names" stems from an earlier agreement to replace an inventive "greater scheme" naming method ("borrowing" terms from other countries describing areas sometimes not at all similar to France's definitions and methods) - it is a silly "tit for tat" effort by a single wikipedian to retain control over "his" article through any means possible, even if the "reverted-to" version counters all evident fact and logic, and this for no reason at all: this is a page-history-evident observation. Present in all articles "written" by the same author, this attitude is "grudge-silly" to the extreme and should cease immediately.
I can't put it any clearer. The article spent months without complaint in an accurate state, and there is not reason that it should not retain its accuracy. What's silliest in all this is that the article needs much improvement, yet because of one contributor it always takes months to get it away from the state "protected" by the same. For the sake of the article and the accuracy of Wikipedia, this silliness must end. THEPROMENADER 11:52, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't know what the dispute is here, but there doesn't seem to be consensus to make any changes. — Carl ( CBM · talk) 22:01, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
I find this article quite interesting but somewhat narrow. Could the article be made broader by talking about the infrastructure (roads, metro, number of airports and their sizes, TGV train stations, ...), stock market capitalization vs. other financial centers, global fortune 500 companies located in Paris vs. other cities, number of fashion houses vs. let's say Milan, London, New York. Also, it's interesting to know how the Paris is GDP stands vs. other cities (which seems to be a contentious issue) but it's also interesting to know how well the economy is doing vs. other regions in France, Europe, and the World. Also, I often hear that Paris is a big music recording center . It would be interesting to know if this is the case. Basically, I'm making a case for knowing a little bit what is inside the "manufacturing" and "tertiary sector" numbers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.73.121.27 ( talk) 14:07, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Paris 2 million people? That's only Paris intra-muros, i.e. the administrative City of Paris. It's like saying that Lyon has only 400,000 inhabitants and that the Satolas Airport is not part of the Lyon economy (it's part of the Colombier-Saugnieu village economy then?). Completely ridiculous! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.123.245.240 ( talk) 21:48, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
As far as I can see, this article contains data about the urban agglomeration of Paris and about the metropolitan area ("aire urbaine") of Paris, which are different from the Paris region. Only a few data refer specifically to the Paris region, so it would be a misnomer to call this article "Economy of the Paris region", given that many data in the article do not correspond to the Paris region. The name "Economy of Paris" is more generic and seems more proper. Olivier.Sr ( talk) 03:09, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
Is this article turning into a history of the Paris economy? If so, it should be renamed "History of the Paris economy". If the history section is not drastically summarized and its content moved to a separate article, I will formally ask administrators to rename this article "History of the Paris economy", so that the page name "Economy of Paris" can be used for an article about today's economy of Paris. Thank you. Der Statistiker ( talk) 01:50, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
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