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It seems that it would make more sense for this entry to be titled "Eastern Orthodox Churches" as opposed to "Eastern Orthodox Church" because the church isn't under one hierarchial structure as the Roman Catholic church is. (This is nitpicking, but I think it's worth discussion.)
I moved the page to Eastern Orthodox Church, as per consensus. Lachatdelarue (talk) 14:30, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
There are numerous slight internal differences of opinion within the Orthodox Church concerning minor issues, never-the-less there is complete concensus on major theological issues. The Orthodox church is not many churches, but one body in Christ. I would propose that the article concerning the Orthodox should stick to the major issues in order to show concensus rather than a constantly changing debate over minor topics. Also, we should avoid comparing ourselves to other churches (i.e. the Roman Catholics) as a form of definition. Simply state what is historically supported, our basic beliefs, and what makes us unique, our POV....not the Russian or Greek, New calendar or Old, But rather the Orthodox POV that we all agree on. Phiddipus 20:16, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I just came to this page to clarify for myself the main differences between Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, with only a high-school history background on either. (A friend of mine is going to Moldova as a Peace Corps volunteer and I wanted to have some fun because he is a devout Roman Catholic. "Do you know the actual differences between Moldovan catholicism and your catholicism?" I wanted to ask.) And I was astounded at the wonderful clarity of the explanation in this Eastern Orthodoxy page! So thank you all for your perseverance on this page. :)) --- Rednblu | Talk 23:09, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I've looked on the discussion in the Archives and I've seen an iteresting issue: the fact that the access of the women in the Altar area is not forbidden and that NO ONE is allowed to enter the Altar area without the Bishop's blessing. Actually as far as I know men are generally allowed to enter the Altar area on certain conditions (serious reason, clean body, clean thoughts etc). I remember that once when I visited a church with the school when I was younger, the priest said that all the boys can enter the Altar area. Also in my country (Romania) ordinary women do not usually have the blessing to enter the Altar area (although many nuns have).
Oh and considering the time of the year, "Christ is risen!" to all of you.
Ioan
I understand. Still I'll take a look in a Catechism as soon as possible, or better ask a priest. Anyway thank you for the explanation. I believe it is as you said, as the Altar is the place where the Transubstantiation takes place.
Ioan
I don't think orthodox believe in "transubstantiation" as the catholics do. ~James
Miskin claims to be presenting "FACTS" in a rather strident manner, but he's incorrect. The church now called Eastern Orthodox existed beyond the bounds of the Empire at the time of Constantinople's fall to the Ottomans; the EP is not, not, not the "head of all Orthodox bodies worldwide" and never has been, not even theoretically (and certainly not canonically); the "Greek Orthodox Church" properly speaking refers to the autocephalous Church of Greece which is not subject to the EP (although the body in the United States known as the "Greek Orthodox Archdiocese" is); the EP is not in any meaningful sense a "medieval" church; and "Eastern Orthodox Church" is actually something of a neologism on the scale of time we're talking about here -- in 1054 the phrase would not have been recognized by anyone, nor was the schism of 1054 permanent as he implies. His introductory paragraph is dead wrong as it stands and I'm reverting. The previous version isn't perfect, but it's far more accurate and better written to boot. Csernica 20:33, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
This has nothing to do with the Church of Greece. It's about how did the term "Greek Orthodox" end up referring to any body of the Orthodox religion (which is not mentioned in the article). As for the EP being the head of all Orthodox bodies worldwide, it refers to the "first among equals". The fact that some bodies like to think that they're completely independent, it has nothing to do with the tradition of the real Orthodox church. If I come up now with an official branch of Christianity that believes in the Koran, nobody will say "some christians believe in the Koran". The EP IS IS IS by tradition the head of all Orthodox bodies worldwide, and whether or not it's accepted by them it's irrelevant. There are Orthodox bodies who have changed the original words of the Holy Book in order to suit their personal national myths - those are usually the ones who renounce the patriarch of Constantinople. You think they have the same status in the Orthodox society with all the others? I never said that the Eastern Orthodox church never existed in non-Byzantine states, I don't know how you came up with that. I was only pointing out which was the FIRST and original body of this community. This is obviously a FACT which you have difficulty accepting. Miskin
I don't care about this article, but just to let you know how ignorant you are: The bodies Antiochian Orthodox Church, Orthodox Church of Jerusalem, and Orthodox Church of Alexandria are part of the Greek Orthodox Church Einstein. Learn the basics before trying to pose as an expert. Miskin 14:58, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
That's because the official name of the Greek people during the middle-ages was "Romaioi" (Romans) and the official name of the Byzantine Empire was Eastern Roman Empire. Read the article. Miskin 18:54, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
That's a bunch of heretic crap. First of all there are no Roman Empires anymore so your hypothesis of reuniting the churches has no basis. The only historically authentic Orthodox body was the Eastern Orthodox Church, which also happened to be the official state religion of the Eastern Roman Empire, and therefore bound to Constantinople and the Byzantine nation (Greeks). Even when the Byzantines fell to the Turks, the patriarchy of Constantinople was the only Greek body that was allowed to operate like previously. This very same body that was once called "Eastern Orthodox Church" survives until the present day as the "Greek Orthodox Church". When in 1929 the Greek-speaking (ex-Byzantine) subject of the Ottoman Empire acquired their independence, their newly created state was renamed "Kingdom of Greece". Hence the Eastern Orthodox Church changed its name to "Greek Orthodox Church". This is the true historical background of this faith, and whether or not you want to believe it is something irrelevant. Miskin 18:54, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
There are large gaps in the text, and i havne't been able to edit a few grammar mistakes, because the links marked edit direct me to edit other parts of the text than what i want. I'm also very worried that the tone is not objective throughout the text. It is, honestly, psychophantic. Whereas the (Roman) Catholic Pages are marked as controversial, these breeze by with comments that start with "unlike the roman catholic church" and go on to criticize the Catholic Church, which is fine by me but not objective enough. I don't know anything about Eastern Orthodoxy, I'm not the one to edit this stuff, but the tone needs to be toned down!
Am I the only one who sences POV probles with the first part of the "The Eastern Orthodox approach" section? user:notthe9 67.22.150.205 04:40, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
The article had been copied and pasted into the middle of itself and was a real mess. I have reverted to previous edit by Preost. -- Etimbo | Talk 16:27, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
The following lines were added at the end of this section and are notably not Orthodox in their content and for this reason have been changed:
First of all, the fire that purifies the saints is far too close to a reference to purgatory to be comfortable. Orthodox Christians do not believe in purgatory.
Second, we have established that Gods mercy alone is what determines the souls ultimate experience, not the other way around.
Phiddipus 18:56, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
What we understand, in as far as we can understand it, the river of fire is the Love of God. While it is true that a number of church fathers, indeed saints, have referred to some sort of a purification process that occurs after death, the reality of this process is absolutely rejected by Orthodox. St Augustine, Saint though he be, misunderstood this point. Saints are not flawless and it is occasionally true that a particular saints writings are regarded as heretical even if the writer himself is a saint. When studying Patristics it is the art of finding the golden thread of Truth that runs throughout and taking everything else with a grain of salt. In any case my guess is that the original addition to the text above was intended to wax poetic and not make a point of it. Never-the-less I thought the point confusing and for this reason removed it. Perhaps a simple reworking of the phrase is in order, but as it was written, anyone familiar with the concept of purgatory will identify with it. Phiddipus 18:57, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
.... concerning "Christocentricity", the Holy Spirit and the Old Testament.
Orthodox Christianity is thoroughly Trinitarian in all its aspects but its ecclesiology may be said to be Christocentric in the sense of the unedited first sentence. I added the comment about the Holy Spirit as the Orthodox have no magisterium above the faithful.
My main objection concerned the relative de-emphasising of the Old Testament which I do not recognise at all in Orthodoxy. Indeed the Old Testament righteous are considered to be saints in their own right and the Church's existence predates Pentecost.
I am a priest of the Orthodox Church (Patriarchate of Antioch), UK.
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Nothing in this is drastically incorrect, but the whole passage comes across (to me) as saying the Orthodox Church is relativistic, with regards to doctrine and morals and in general. For example, that the Orthodox do not require the Old Testament to be taken literally: If I'm not mistaken, this is a misleading statement based on some Church fathers' speculations that the "days" of Creation were perhaps not 24-hour days as we know them, but instead eras. This is not a case of literal vs. allegorical, however; I believe the Hebrew word used in Genesis for "day" can mean either day or period, both literal renditions. Orthodox are to take the Old Testament literally where it is meant to be read literally, and allegorically when the author intended allegory.
Also, "The Orthodox Church does not seek any conflict with science" is vague, and perhaps misleading as well. While of course Orthodoxy does not seek conflict, it also does not-should not-accept something just because scientists say it is true. The revelation of God (the creator of all truth and all things studied through science) generally takes precedence over second-hand scientific interpretations of often imperfect evidence. I understand that much of the tone in this passage is meant to contrast the East with the West to some extent. However, this should not be done to the point of twisting the facts. Tix 8 July 2005 19:59 (UTC)
My use of protestant was incorrect and by far too general. Of course I was referring to those groups of Christians which do rely on scripture alone and insist on its literal interpretation. My apologies. As to the last paragraph you wrote: While it would not be proper to say that an Orthodox Christian who believes in a young earth and a literal 6 day creation is not Orthodox, it would be proper to say that his belief (naïve or not) is completely unimportant to his salvation.
We, you and I, and indeed everyone here is guilty of wasting time. I, in particular, am addicted to arguing over minutia and hoping to sound like I know something, but the fact is none of this is important. I happen to have a little knowledge both in theology and in the sciences and find that in order to function, these fields must reconcile. I cannot dispute the wisdom of a man such as Fr. Seraphim in such matters as Faith and I therefore attribute his possible belief in a literal Genesis as perhaps due to a lack of knowledge in scientific fields, this does not lesson his brilliant incite into the field he was an expert in. On the other hand, Fr Florovsky was a scientist and this is evident in the brilliant streams of logic in his writings. But in the end, all this is academia and unimportant to our salvation. And so my original point remains, the bible is not central to Orthodoxy, Christ is. Phiddipus 05:22, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
Allow me to add one thing more to clarify my point. The only text that an Orthodox Christian is bound to agree with and which defines him and to which no variation is allowed is the Symbol of Faith (Nicene Creed). Anyone who does not agree to the text of the Symbol of Faith cannot rightly define himself or herself as Eastern Orthodox. Phiddipus 15:18, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
This two churches are both officialy recognized in Moldova. Moldovan Metropolitan Church is under the Patriarchiate of Moscow. Metropolitan Church of Bessarabia is under the Patriarchiate of Romania. Accroding to a 2000 survey ( http://www.azi.md/news?ID=8910), 73% of Moldovans declared their affiliation to a church. Of those 73% (3,200,000 people), 60% declared they belong to the Moldovan Metropolitan Church (1,900,000 people), and 23% declared they belong to the Metropolitan Church of Bessarabia (750,000 people). The survey was conducted in 2000, only on the right bank of Dniester. -- Danutz
Let's be clear: it's not for us to say that the Orthodox Church does follow Christian tradition more closely than other churches. We can say that it claims to, and then we need to note that this claim is disputed by other Churches. The articles on Protestantism and Roman Catholicism work the same way. It's disappointing to see the lack of objectivity present in this article compared to the coverage of other denominations. In terms of factual accuracy, I genuinely view the earlier view of the introduction as more accurate. In particular, the "largest body of Christians" claim would need a source to remain. With that in mind, I will put the intro back to the earlier version. Slac speak up! 23:51, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
Apologies for the strong words, but I simply think that this is plainly and simply a biaised reading of facts. As a Catholic, I might make edits to the Roman Catholic Church article that could be seen as supporting its claim to be the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, but these would be in violation of NPOV. Similarly, approaching the article from your perspective, and making universally favourable edits to the content of the article is a good indication that you are in violation of NPOV. Slac speak up! 00:58, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
It is not at all correct that Orthodox Christians are normally free to cut themselves off from bishops who, in their private opinions, are teaching incorrectly. This is nothing more than veiled Protestantism. Those who claim this is the correct mindset love to cite certain historical examples. Even a cursory examination of the history of the Orthodox Church reveals that these instances are extraordinarily rare. I can think of exactly three examples over the past 2,000 years where this kind of action was justified, and there are no such modern issues. It does not deserve a mention as if it were normative ecclesiology. My recently eradicated change to this section reflected the actual Orthodox teaching on the subject.
I am aware that some do feel that there are modern issues that can justify this kind of action, as the article now reflects and as it reflected prior to my edit. I think the repeated use of the word "jurisdiction" is revealing here. It's something that only takes on a meaning seperate from a geographically local church in modern America, and was not commonly used until the modern uncanonical American situation arose. It requires a modern American Protestant mindset for an Orthodox Christian to constantly sit in judgement of his bishops. I suggest a re-reading of Sts. Ignatios of Antioch and Irenaeus of Lyons.
But this kind of thing is why I generally don't contribute to this article. I hate to put it so strongly, but it's so slanted in favor of this strange ecclesiology, and keeps getting dragged back to it no matter what else is done, that it's practically useless. I'd be embarrassed to send anyone to it for unbiased information on the Orthodox Church. TCC (talk) (contribs) 21:36, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
Concerning this new entry, it is utter nonsense. Within the fold of the Orthodox Church, the Divine Liturgy, composed by Saint John Chrysostomos has remained virtually changeless since the 4th century AD. Slight variations in style have always been part of its regional practice as is described by Typica. There are numerous extent texts for comparison. While it is true that the church slowly, slowly evolves and grows, services such as the Divine Liturgy which are served by millions of people daily do not change. Indeed, there is no vehicle for them to change. Phiddipus 01:20, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
We determine who is teaching the truth by comparing what they say to those saints who came before them. We determine if they are upholding the traditions of the church and teaching them, or compromising and ignoring them for the sake of convenience. It is one thing for a bishop to exercise Ekonomia and allow a newly converted Orthodox Christian to eat cheese and eggs during his first fast, It is another to make it a general rule for everyone. It is one thing to allow one priest to dress in layman’s clothing because he also holds a secular job, and another to allow all his priests to dress like Roman Catholics with clean-shaven faces. It is one thing for a bishop to allow a service to be reduced (for the sake of an emergency) and another to allow the services to be shortened because the people just don’t want to be in church that long. And I haven’t even mentioned the half of it. When we allow such things as: Changing the calendar, sitting in church, moving feasts cause people don’t want to come to church on a week night, collecting money during services, not doing services (an Antiochian church I attended never did vespers or matins), Adding protestant hymns to the divine liturgy, baptizing by sprinkling; when we approach such things as trivial we are denying the TRUTH of them. These mysteries are not make-believe, they are ontological reality. Changes such as these are made, not for the glory of the church, but for the convenience of the complainers. Now understand, a bishop has the power of ekonomia; on an individual basis he can bend the rules; but what we are talking about are huge general changes that have nothing to do with ekonomia.
The liturgy has changed. It has been expanded and beautified. It has been clarified and been made to reflect more closely the reality of the heavenly liturgy through divine inspiration. You will not find that some Holy Saint ever said, “I can’t stand being in church for 4 hours, lets cut out all those petitions, and skip all those long prayers in the altar.” For 2000 years the church has grown and expanded and become more beautiful, her fruits are the Saints and her flowers are magnificent. This growth is not CHANGE, it is growth and clarification and revelation. But the change I am talking about is sudden, damaging, destruction of parts of the traditions of the church that have developed (not for convenience, but for glorification) but which are being chopped off because people cant be bothered to discipline themselves or because people place their own comfort before their spiritual health. Phiddipus 15:21, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
TCC (talk) (contribs) 19:39, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
I might suggest the following structure in order to better express What an Orthodox Christian is and what he believes. I would also like to avoid comparisons to other Christians if at all possible.
Introduction
1) What the Orthodox Believe
2) How the Orthodox Act
3) Who the Orthodox Are Historically
4) Current Issues
Phiddipus 14:46, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
I believe this to be incorrect: "Incense is burned during all services in the Eastern Orthodox Church except during seasons of Lenten abstinence." First, it's not used at all services -- not at the Hours, for example; nor, I believe, at Little Vespers. Second, I just looked through Bp. Kallistos' Triodion, Apb. Dmitri's Sluzhebnik, the Order of Divine Services book from St. John of Kronstadt Press, the Horologion from Holy Trinity Monastery, and the old Abridged Typikon and can find no support for the idea that incense is not offered during Lenten services. Certainly lots of incense is offered at the Presanctified Liturgy in any event, but even when there's no Entrance at Vespers as in Daily Vespers the church is censed at "Lord I have cried". So unless you can come up with a cite, I'm going to be fixing this bit. TCC (talk) (contribs) 07:18, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
While many people may agree that the pinnacle of “Russian” iconography may be “the Trinity” (really, “The Hospitality of Abraham”) by Andrei Rublev, I find it a bit disturbing (and he probably does too) that he acquired such fame, considering that he was a monk. I wonder on what they base his recognition as a saint. Phiddipus 15:57, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
How can it be said that the OT isn't used extensively in the services? At Vespers there are often three Old Testament reading called for, mostly from the Wisdom literature, and other books of the OT are read during Great Lent. The comparison to Protestantism here is misleading, since there is always an OT reading during the RC mass as well.
It is also not true that the Apocalypse is not used at all; it's read in its entirely in monasteries during Great Lent. (It's not part of the regular parish lectionary because it was a relatively late that its canonicity was universally agreed upon and by that time the lectionary was already set.) TCC (talk) (contribs) 21:35, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm a former Protestant having been raised in the Reformed tradition, and I tell you that use of the OT in Protestant services is no more "extensive" than it is for the Latins. I'm sorry, but what you have said here is simply incorrect. I also wonder if you understand the importance of the OT in Orthodoxy. St. Paul certainly seemed to think it was important. (It's the OT he talks about when he says "Scripture": the NT largely hadn't been written yet.) The reason we know Jesus is Christ is because of how the OT points to him, and not only in those prophecies that clearly do so but even in the figures given in the Law. To this extent it is very much for Christians, and can't be dismissed out of hand like this.
You're right about the Apocalypse here, but it's not clear in the article that you're talking strictly about the services. If that's what you're doing in the entire "Bible" section then I suggest that you not. Private study of the Scriptures is equally important and nowhere discouraged by the Fathers so long as one submits to the will of the Church in interpretation.
By the way, the dieresis is not commonly used in modern English orthography for doubled independent vowels. You find it more in British than American English, but even in British English you more often see the hyphen these days instead. Sometimes there's no indication at all of the syllable break, but rather the reader must determine it from context (as in "naive", formerly "naïve". TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:18, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
I edited this page to reflect the fact that there is no formal process of canonization in the Orthodox Church. I removed all references to the canonization where glorification was the proper term. I have referenced the sources on these changes. Argos'Dad
Please allow me, though an outsider, to make a general observation about this article. I can see why an article on Protestantism, which arose as a "protest" against Catholic practice and belief, should contain comparisons with the Roman Catholic Church. But surely the venerable Eastern Orthodox Church does not need to have recourse to comparisons with Western Christian tradition (either as preserved in the Catholic Church or as revised/reformed in the Protestant communities), in order to define itself, its doctrine and its practice. In other words, should not the article describe the Eastern Orthodox Church by what it is, not by what it is not? The "Roman Catholic Church" article seems to have needed no such comparisons. I hope no one is offended by this observation, which, though occasioned by a misrepresentation (now removed from the article) of one point of Western belief, is meant essentially as an expression of sincere respect and of the wish that nothing in the article should seem to diminish the greatness of the Eastern Orthodox Church.
Lima 11:58, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
It is my hope and realization that those of us who spend our little bits of free time here correcting errors realize that our work is useless and fruitless. The concept of the wikipedia may work for some subjects but not one that has “enemies”. Since there is no scholarly review, since there is no need to back anything up with hard data, since anyone can express his opinion, this particular subject, The Eastern Orthodox Church, should be considered by those who read it to be a mixture of truth and falsehood, unreliable as an information source. There have always been those who express their POV about certain aspects of the EOC in radical and innovative terms, and this has become their forum for a continual attack on what the Orthodox Church truly and traditionally believes. I have had numerous discussion here with highly intellectual members of the church who themselves see clearly the problems that occur when the less knowledgeable manage to undo all the work we have done with a simple edit. The current state of this subjects listing is appalling. What we have carefully stated to the wikipedia audience in order to be very clear, in order to be precise in what we say, in order not to invoke a theological error in the mind of the reader has been undone and rewritten by wishy-washy dilatants who have, at best, a new converts impression of things. I believe I have had done with it. It was a foolish venture to try and add to this base of knowledge. This wikipedia should be considered in the minds eye to be nothing more than a chalkboard of nonsense, at least in subjects such as this. Adieu, adieu. Phiddipus 22:39, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Two questions:
Would the Orthodox church accept women priests (apart from Mount Athos?
Mentioned mainly because they exclude females (apart, I think from cats and cows) and so would be excluded from this discussion.
I was asking out of curiousity: perhaps there should be a wider article "Women and the priesthood" stating the positions of the various religions.
How do the several different Orthodox churches differ? That is: if one went to (for example) a Russian Orthodox service and a Greek Orthodox one, would the differences be merely in the language used and the particular saints venerated, or would there be other differences?
A sentence or two on the latter might be useful for those wishing to know more about the subject (eg "The only difference between the various Orthodox churches are languages and local saints" or "The X Orthodox church is distinguished from others by...").
Use whatever variant/development of my comment(s) are appropriate (as other non-Orthodoxes will presumably be interested).
As additions have been made variously since the immediately previous sentence was added here, it still stands. Sometimes pointing out what is required (from someone more knowledgeable) is as useful as doing it oneself (g).
Are there equivalents of Hildegard von Bingham and Julian of Norwich - ie women who have a significant place in Orthodox theological activity?
I raised the point out of curiosity/seeing a gap.
There might well be room for a general article on " Women as theological figures" (there must be more than the above two, Elizabeth Fry, and the founder of the Shaker movement), Ann Wardley.
While I think this information is of considerable value, I question whether describing the rite in such detail belongs in an article that should really be an overview, as it takes a disproportionate amount of space. I suggest it be moved to a seperate article, with perhaps a "See also" link on the present page. TCC (talk) (contribs) 20:08, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
PS - That's assuming it renders as apparently intended, which it does not. TCC (talk) (contribs) 21:01, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
At the risk of appearing self-serving -- I recently clashed with this editor at Quartodecimanism and the process there is not yet complete -- I fail to understand why this link was not only restored and retained, but given the prominence of its own section. I have no problem with "outside perspectives" as such (a well-balanced Wikipedia article should be one of them) but since when do we tolerate vanity links in articles? The link was added by the webmaster of the site to which it points. The target page adds no real information; rather, it appears to serve no purpose but to allow the writer a forum for his own POV. How can this be justified? TCC (talk) (contribs) 03:06, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
Wow, all I can say is whoever wrote this either has very little grasp of Orthodox Theology, or very little understanding of the words he uses to express himself. He/She states:
Theosis is our Goal. St Basil states: We are to strive to become little gods, within God, Little Jesus Christs within Jesus Christ”. In other words we must seek perfection in all things in our lives, We must strive to acquire Godly Virtue. God through participation in mankind makes it possible for man to participate in Divinity. While it is true that we will not become “separate” gods in the pagan sense we will participate in the divine energies of God (which are not separate from God) and still retain our individuality.
Also He/She/ states:
This phrase alone is so badly constructed that it both implies that The Theotokos, was nothing more than the mother of Jesus (Nestorianism) and that she did not retain her virginity. Pretty much, the rest of what is written shows a very dim and clouded understanding of the process of salvation even while it claims to be at the very core of Orthodox Faith. Phiddipus 21:32, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Tix 02:39, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
For those who are interested, there has been created Category:Eastern Orthodox Wikipedians. To include yourself in that category, edit your user page to include: [[Category:Eastern Orthodox Wikipedians]]. —— Preost talk contribs 17:14, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Could someone please add a sentence or two on the subject to Women as theological figures (and any other religious viewpoints etc). Jackiespeel 23:11, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
I am from a traditional branch of the Greek Church. I have done a lot of traveling in Greece, the Holy Mountain, and abroad. I do find it is common that the inscription on the crossbar above Christ is not INBI but rather INBD. It was explained to me that this phrase (Jesus Christ the King of Glory) was to counter Pontius Pilates mocking, King of the Jews. This is not to say that there is anything wrong with the title King of the Jews, but when Pilate asks Christ about his kingdom he tells Pilate "My Kingdom is not of this world" and, of course, Christ kingdom does encompass all mankind, not just the Jews. So it seems wholly appropriate to replace INBI or INRI with INBD. Phiddipus 21:00, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
I have a number of photos showing this from the internet, can I email them to you. I can see if I can take a some next time I am in Greece. I also found a Russian cross. I don't read russian but it doesn't look like the Russian equiv of INBI, looks like it might say "The King of Glory". Of Course, I also do see INBI used frequently, but there doesnt seem to be a reason to state the obvious in the article, but the unusual difference. Phiddipus 16:46, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
I cannot find on Internet a picture clear enough to show INBD but I have seen this numerous times. Following are some examples I did find on the Internet showing the replacement inscription instead of “King of the Jews”
Icon – King of Glory [3]
Cross – King of Glory [4]
Cross – King of Glory [5]
Cross – King of glory [6]
Slavonic…I cant read but it might say King of Glory [7], [8]
Obviously any kind of abbreviation is acceptable if there is not enough room to spell it out. Phiddipus 22:33, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
I thought it was worth mentioning again that OrthodoxWiki exists, a wiki dedicated explicitly to Orthodox Christianity. You are all welcome to come and contribute. We're now up to almost 1300 articles. — Preost talk contribs 02:41, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
The recent edits by Soakologist [9] stating that the Eucharist is not at the center of Orthodox Christianity, but is rather at the center of its "practice" and not its "beliefs" is fundamentally an error. It is certainly the case that partaking of the Eucharist is a "practice," which is clear from the section as it now stands. However, to suggest that the Eucharist is somehow only a practice and not a matter of belief is to go against the very Scripture itself: "Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him" (John 6:53-56). This is quite clearly a matter of belief and not merely of practice.
Further, to separate a central practice such as any of the holy mysteries out from Orthodox belief is to create an opposition where none exists. Orthodoxy is fundamentally not a set of beliefs and a set of practices. Rather, it is a way of life whose beliefs and practices are bound up in one another. Put simply, one cannot be a believer in Orthodox Christianity and not partake of the Eucharist. That the Eucharist is the food of immortality is very much a central belief of Orthodoxy. —— Preost talk contribs 13:27, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
I was just reading the reasons why the article failed when it was nominated. It was so long ago and so many edits have been made since then, that it seems a certainty that issues have been sorted out. Could it be time to consider this article again as candidate for FA? Anagnorisis 03:50, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
I second that motion.
Miha sinkovec
20:16, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
There's a new template for Eastern Orthodox Wikipedians. Just add this code to your userpage: {{User eastortho}}
— Preost talk contribs 14:03, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
There's now another new template created by a user for Eastern Orthodox Wikipedians. Just add this code to your userpage: {{User Orthodox Christian}}. -- Aquarius Rising 21:44, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
Given the idiosyncrasies which seem to keep creeping into this article and the general mess that other articles pertaining to Eastern Orthodoxy are in on Wikipedia, what would everyone think of putting together a WikiProject titled WikiProject Eastern Orthodoxy? — Preost talk contribs 20:03, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
A new article is titled Holy Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church in America. It used some inappropriate first-person language, some of which I've fixed. It is deficient in other articles linking to it and probably could still use some cleanup. It seems to have been created by a new Wikipedian who hasn't yet done anything else. Perhaps readers of this page can help. Michael Hardy 00:26, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
No offense, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why this article isn't a featured article. Right now I'm trying to clean it up, and I hope people will cooperate and help, and let me know if I do something wrong. Tix 02:35, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
The FYROM/Macedonia keeps getting added to and removed from the intro paragraph listing the countries where Orthodoxy is the strongest. Certainly, some of the population there is Orthodox, but church there is not recognized by any of the mainstream churches which are generally held to make up the Eastern Orthodox Church. Any solution to this? My own view is that Macedonia shouldn't be listed there, because only a little over half of the population self-identifies as Orthodox, as that identification isn't affirmed at this point by the rest of Orthodoxy in any normal way.
What say you? — Preost talk contribs 23:30, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
In terms of NPOV, I think some mention should still be made of Macedonia. I would suggest that mention be made that it is not included in the relevant paragraph but that, notwithstanding thiat, what is now the Republic of Macedonia is traditional home to many Orthodox; that because of issues with the Serbian church, the Macedonian church declared itself autocephalous; and that the said autocephaly is not recognized by the rest of Orthodoxy. It would be a shame to exclude some mention of Macedonia, as I'm sure that a large number of the autocephaleous Macedonian parishioners are faithful Orthodox despite the canonical/jurisdictional issues. -- Aquarius Rising 23:45, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Rather than me doing a revert at this moment, can someone cogently justify the view that ROCOR is a non-mainstream church? As far as I know, it is mainstream. -- Aquarius Rising 00:06, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
P.S.: By the same token, wouldn't OCA therefore also be non-mainstream? And what does "mainstream" mean? -- Aquarius Rising 00:14, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
To place the term Original sin in context: God created man perfect with free will and gave man a direction to follow. Man chose rather to disobey God thus changing the perfect nature of man to the flawed nature of man. Therefore this flawed nature and all that has come from it it a result of that Original Sin. Because we participate in humanity, we share in the sin of Adam as we are human as he was human. This change of Nature in humanity is the reason Christ God united his divine nature to man, to alter that nature and thus save man from Hell. All humans participate in human nature including the Virgin mary (Why we reject the immaculate conception) That Original sin is cleansed in humans through baptism or, in the case of the Theotokos, the moment Christ took form within her.-- Phiddipus 03:09, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
The following language was inserted in the article and changed:
with the edit summary that Protestantism is not a grouping in the relevant sense. This is strongly debatable; more seriously, the changed language will mislead many English-speakers, who will see an implication that Protestantism has fewer adherents than Orthodoxy.
Another sentence may be warranted, saying that there are fewer Orthodox than Protestants as a whole, but more than Lutherans or Calvinists or any other variety - but that may be an unnecessary lengthening. Septentrionalis 04:13, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Catholic 1,050,000,000 - Orthodox/Eastern Christian 240,000,000 - Pentecostal 105,000,000 - Reformed/Presbyterian/Congregational/United 75,000,000 - Anglican 73,000,000 - Baptist 70,000,000 - Methodist 70,000,000 - Lutheran 64,000,000 - Jehovah's Witnesses 14,800,000 - Adventist 12,000,000 - Latter Day Saints 12,500,000 - Apostolic/New Apostolic 10,000,000 - Stone-Campbell ("Restoration Movement") 5,400,000 - New Thought (Unity, Christian Science, etc.) 1,500,000 - Brethren (incl. Plymouth) 1,500,000 - Mennonite 1,250,000 - Friends (Quakers) 300,000
I am still having a problem with with the way this sentence is written. OK lets use communion. Eastern Orthodoxy is the largest communion after Roman Catholosism - this is true. What is incorrect is to compare it to an amorphous grouping such as protestantism since this is not a single communion and Orthodoxy is not a group. You can compare the number of apples produced each year to oranges, but its misleading to compare the number of apples to the number of all varieties of other citrus fruit in the world. -- Phiddipus 06:17, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
This article is VERY long. I have moved the full text of the marriage section to a new article - Marriage in the Eastern Orthodox Church - and put a cut down version in this article. Both the new summary here, and the new article, of course, still need a bit of tidying up. -- DogsBreakfast 16:59, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
"even in 1054, there was more than just Constantinople in the EO world"
Like what else? Miskin 17:20, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem and Cyprus, just as all "authocephalus" bodies of Greek clergy (then and today), were in practice under the guidance of the EP, and together they formed (and still do) the "Greek Orthodox Church". The first non-Greek body which acquired a real independent status was the Russian Church. All other autocephalus bodies, Greek or not, were subjects to the EP. An example of this is the Bulgarian Archbishopric of Ohrid. This is were the "first amongst equals" applies. I don't understand why the article doesn't focus at all on the history and creation of the modern Orthodox bodies and how they ended up acquiring independency from the EP. I don't understand why the article doesn't focus at all on the EP and the Greek Orthodox Church, mother of all Eastern Orthodox bodies. Miskin 08:54, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Each and every time the Latin Church thought of a union between the East and the West, they aimed at a union with Constantinople, which would include the rest of the Greek patriarchates (Jerusalem, Alexandria, etc). There are Western sources from the Fourth Crusade which explicitely mention that their holy mission would guarantee a union between the West and the East, whose head resides at Constantinople (I can quote for you if you like). Furthermore the Schism itself took place between Rome and Constantinople, not between Rome and Alexandria, Jerusalem and Antioch. They were categorised as "Eastern Churches" because of their submission to the EP. As you said it yourself, the forced de-Hellenization of Antioch was recent and has therefore nothing to do with the rest. My observation relies on the article's tendency to neglect the historical importance and 2000 year-old continuity of the EP, as if it were some common Orthodox body which recently acquired an autocephalus status. The much longer and detailed Britannica article, follows a completely different route. Miskin 14:16, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I realize that this issue has been hashed and rehashed a few times, but the current article is still not accurate. I also realize that many of the contributors to this article may not be aware of the scope of the traditions of the Orthodox Church and may be judging based on what their local church practices or what their particular “jurisdiction” is used to. I do not mean to sound inflammatory or nit-picky, but in order to reflect the teachings and practices of the Orthodox Church and present them to the world, it is necessary to encompass, as best we can, all of the conditions possible when relating to a subject, especially when such a condition is not uncommon. Many problems arise within this article because of language, the church being fairly new to the English speaking world, and the attempt to use pre existing terminology borrowed from western Christianity. So please, bare with me and look to the meaning of what I say, not necessarily the terminology I use. I will attempt to state it simply:
God forgives sins. Within the Church, ideally, in order to receive communion one should confess and have the prayer of forgiveness read over one by a priest. Only a priest can perform this function, and the priesthood is male. But to clarify, this reading of the prayer is not the Mystery itself, but only the last step before communing. The major part of the mystery occurs when the individual seeks out his spiritual “father” and confesses his sins. The mystery is that God speaks through the spiritual guide and that the follower must take it to heart exactly what his guide tells him. It has been said that no one, not even the ecumenical patriarch can override the words of a spiritual guide since this would be to deny the mystery. While a priest is necessary to read the prayer of forgiveness, he is not necessarily the person’s spiritual guide, nor is it necessary for him to hear ones confession. In such cases the priest usually asks the communicant if he has confessed to his spiritual guide, and then simply reads the prayer. This completes the mystery as a period completes a sentence, the mystery occurs as God working through the spiritual guide.
Now to the point; as it states in the article, sin must be dealt with on an individual basis. It must be filtered through human understanding. The Orthodox Church accomplishes this by the enlistment of spiritual guides. What it needs to state is that the spiritual guides can be male or female, spiritual fathers and mothers. A spiritual mother is not an uncommon thing. Women do hear confession. God works the Mystery as easily through women as through men. And there are many, many instances where women have more authority (abbesses in their convents) than even the Patriarch of Constantinople.
The terminology: Confessor, may be itself misleading. But to redefine it in Orthodox context, a Confessor is one who hears confessions, whom God speaks through, who guides spiritually his or her charges, who's authority cannot be overridden, and does all of this before having a priest (or himself) read the prayer of forgiveness before communion. This definition can apply to men as well as women.-- Phiddipus 16:28, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
It seems that it would make more sense for this entry to be titled "Eastern Orthodox Churches" as opposed to "Eastern Orthodox Church" because the church isn't under one hierarchial structure as the Roman Catholic church is. (This is nitpicking, but I think it's worth discussion.)
I moved the page to Eastern Orthodox Church, as per consensus. Lachatdelarue (talk) 14:30, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
There are numerous slight internal differences of opinion within the Orthodox Church concerning minor issues, never-the-less there is complete concensus on major theological issues. The Orthodox church is not many churches, but one body in Christ. I would propose that the article concerning the Orthodox should stick to the major issues in order to show concensus rather than a constantly changing debate over minor topics. Also, we should avoid comparing ourselves to other churches (i.e. the Roman Catholics) as a form of definition. Simply state what is historically supported, our basic beliefs, and what makes us unique, our POV....not the Russian or Greek, New calendar or Old, But rather the Orthodox POV that we all agree on. Phiddipus 20:16, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I just came to this page to clarify for myself the main differences between Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, with only a high-school history background on either. (A friend of mine is going to Moldova as a Peace Corps volunteer and I wanted to have some fun because he is a devout Roman Catholic. "Do you know the actual differences between Moldovan catholicism and your catholicism?" I wanted to ask.) And I was astounded at the wonderful clarity of the explanation in this Eastern Orthodoxy page! So thank you all for your perseverance on this page. :)) --- Rednblu | Talk 23:09, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I've looked on the discussion in the Archives and I've seen an iteresting issue: the fact that the access of the women in the Altar area is not forbidden and that NO ONE is allowed to enter the Altar area without the Bishop's blessing. Actually as far as I know men are generally allowed to enter the Altar area on certain conditions (serious reason, clean body, clean thoughts etc). I remember that once when I visited a church with the school when I was younger, the priest said that all the boys can enter the Altar area. Also in my country (Romania) ordinary women do not usually have the blessing to enter the Altar area (although many nuns have).
Oh and considering the time of the year, "Christ is risen!" to all of you.
Ioan
I understand. Still I'll take a look in a Catechism as soon as possible, or better ask a priest. Anyway thank you for the explanation. I believe it is as you said, as the Altar is the place where the Transubstantiation takes place.
Ioan
I don't think orthodox believe in "transubstantiation" as the catholics do. ~James
Miskin claims to be presenting "FACTS" in a rather strident manner, but he's incorrect. The church now called Eastern Orthodox existed beyond the bounds of the Empire at the time of Constantinople's fall to the Ottomans; the EP is not, not, not the "head of all Orthodox bodies worldwide" and never has been, not even theoretically (and certainly not canonically); the "Greek Orthodox Church" properly speaking refers to the autocephalous Church of Greece which is not subject to the EP (although the body in the United States known as the "Greek Orthodox Archdiocese" is); the EP is not in any meaningful sense a "medieval" church; and "Eastern Orthodox Church" is actually something of a neologism on the scale of time we're talking about here -- in 1054 the phrase would not have been recognized by anyone, nor was the schism of 1054 permanent as he implies. His introductory paragraph is dead wrong as it stands and I'm reverting. The previous version isn't perfect, but it's far more accurate and better written to boot. Csernica 20:33, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
This has nothing to do with the Church of Greece. It's about how did the term "Greek Orthodox" end up referring to any body of the Orthodox religion (which is not mentioned in the article). As for the EP being the head of all Orthodox bodies worldwide, it refers to the "first among equals". The fact that some bodies like to think that they're completely independent, it has nothing to do with the tradition of the real Orthodox church. If I come up now with an official branch of Christianity that believes in the Koran, nobody will say "some christians believe in the Koran". The EP IS IS IS by tradition the head of all Orthodox bodies worldwide, and whether or not it's accepted by them it's irrelevant. There are Orthodox bodies who have changed the original words of the Holy Book in order to suit their personal national myths - those are usually the ones who renounce the patriarch of Constantinople. You think they have the same status in the Orthodox society with all the others? I never said that the Eastern Orthodox church never existed in non-Byzantine states, I don't know how you came up with that. I was only pointing out which was the FIRST and original body of this community. This is obviously a FACT which you have difficulty accepting. Miskin
I don't care about this article, but just to let you know how ignorant you are: The bodies Antiochian Orthodox Church, Orthodox Church of Jerusalem, and Orthodox Church of Alexandria are part of the Greek Orthodox Church Einstein. Learn the basics before trying to pose as an expert. Miskin 14:58, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
That's because the official name of the Greek people during the middle-ages was "Romaioi" (Romans) and the official name of the Byzantine Empire was Eastern Roman Empire. Read the article. Miskin 18:54, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
That's a bunch of heretic crap. First of all there are no Roman Empires anymore so your hypothesis of reuniting the churches has no basis. The only historically authentic Orthodox body was the Eastern Orthodox Church, which also happened to be the official state religion of the Eastern Roman Empire, and therefore bound to Constantinople and the Byzantine nation (Greeks). Even when the Byzantines fell to the Turks, the patriarchy of Constantinople was the only Greek body that was allowed to operate like previously. This very same body that was once called "Eastern Orthodox Church" survives until the present day as the "Greek Orthodox Church". When in 1929 the Greek-speaking (ex-Byzantine) subject of the Ottoman Empire acquired their independence, their newly created state was renamed "Kingdom of Greece". Hence the Eastern Orthodox Church changed its name to "Greek Orthodox Church". This is the true historical background of this faith, and whether or not you want to believe it is something irrelevant. Miskin 18:54, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
There are large gaps in the text, and i havne't been able to edit a few grammar mistakes, because the links marked edit direct me to edit other parts of the text than what i want. I'm also very worried that the tone is not objective throughout the text. It is, honestly, psychophantic. Whereas the (Roman) Catholic Pages are marked as controversial, these breeze by with comments that start with "unlike the roman catholic church" and go on to criticize the Catholic Church, which is fine by me but not objective enough. I don't know anything about Eastern Orthodoxy, I'm not the one to edit this stuff, but the tone needs to be toned down!
Am I the only one who sences POV probles with the first part of the "The Eastern Orthodox approach" section? user:notthe9 67.22.150.205 04:40, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
The article had been copied and pasted into the middle of itself and was a real mess. I have reverted to previous edit by Preost. -- Etimbo | Talk 16:27, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
The following lines were added at the end of this section and are notably not Orthodox in their content and for this reason have been changed:
First of all, the fire that purifies the saints is far too close to a reference to purgatory to be comfortable. Orthodox Christians do not believe in purgatory.
Second, we have established that Gods mercy alone is what determines the souls ultimate experience, not the other way around.
Phiddipus 18:56, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
What we understand, in as far as we can understand it, the river of fire is the Love of God. While it is true that a number of church fathers, indeed saints, have referred to some sort of a purification process that occurs after death, the reality of this process is absolutely rejected by Orthodox. St Augustine, Saint though he be, misunderstood this point. Saints are not flawless and it is occasionally true that a particular saints writings are regarded as heretical even if the writer himself is a saint. When studying Patristics it is the art of finding the golden thread of Truth that runs throughout and taking everything else with a grain of salt. In any case my guess is that the original addition to the text above was intended to wax poetic and not make a point of it. Never-the-less I thought the point confusing and for this reason removed it. Perhaps a simple reworking of the phrase is in order, but as it was written, anyone familiar with the concept of purgatory will identify with it. Phiddipus 18:57, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
.... concerning "Christocentricity", the Holy Spirit and the Old Testament.
Orthodox Christianity is thoroughly Trinitarian in all its aspects but its ecclesiology may be said to be Christocentric in the sense of the unedited first sentence. I added the comment about the Holy Spirit as the Orthodox have no magisterium above the faithful.
My main objection concerned the relative de-emphasising of the Old Testament which I do not recognise at all in Orthodoxy. Indeed the Old Testament righteous are considered to be saints in their own right and the Church's existence predates Pentecost.
I am a priest of the Orthodox Church (Patriarchate of Antioch), UK.
There is now a stub template for Eastern Orthodox Christianity-related articles in need of expansion. Please add {{orthodoxy-stub}} to articles. You can also go to the Category page for Eastern Orthodox Christianity-related stubs and click the "watch this page" link in the sidebar, so that you can see new stub articles as they appear. Spread the word! JHCC (talk) 6 July 2005 15:08 (UTC)
Nothing in this is drastically incorrect, but the whole passage comes across (to me) as saying the Orthodox Church is relativistic, with regards to doctrine and morals and in general. For example, that the Orthodox do not require the Old Testament to be taken literally: If I'm not mistaken, this is a misleading statement based on some Church fathers' speculations that the "days" of Creation were perhaps not 24-hour days as we know them, but instead eras. This is not a case of literal vs. allegorical, however; I believe the Hebrew word used in Genesis for "day" can mean either day or period, both literal renditions. Orthodox are to take the Old Testament literally where it is meant to be read literally, and allegorically when the author intended allegory.
Also, "The Orthodox Church does not seek any conflict with science" is vague, and perhaps misleading as well. While of course Orthodoxy does not seek conflict, it also does not-should not-accept something just because scientists say it is true. The revelation of God (the creator of all truth and all things studied through science) generally takes precedence over second-hand scientific interpretations of often imperfect evidence. I understand that much of the tone in this passage is meant to contrast the East with the West to some extent. However, this should not be done to the point of twisting the facts. Tix 8 July 2005 19:59 (UTC)
My use of protestant was incorrect and by far too general. Of course I was referring to those groups of Christians which do rely on scripture alone and insist on its literal interpretation. My apologies. As to the last paragraph you wrote: While it would not be proper to say that an Orthodox Christian who believes in a young earth and a literal 6 day creation is not Orthodox, it would be proper to say that his belief (naïve or not) is completely unimportant to his salvation.
We, you and I, and indeed everyone here is guilty of wasting time. I, in particular, am addicted to arguing over minutia and hoping to sound like I know something, but the fact is none of this is important. I happen to have a little knowledge both in theology and in the sciences and find that in order to function, these fields must reconcile. I cannot dispute the wisdom of a man such as Fr. Seraphim in such matters as Faith and I therefore attribute his possible belief in a literal Genesis as perhaps due to a lack of knowledge in scientific fields, this does not lesson his brilliant incite into the field he was an expert in. On the other hand, Fr Florovsky was a scientist and this is evident in the brilliant streams of logic in his writings. But in the end, all this is academia and unimportant to our salvation. And so my original point remains, the bible is not central to Orthodoxy, Christ is. Phiddipus 05:22, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
Allow me to add one thing more to clarify my point. The only text that an Orthodox Christian is bound to agree with and which defines him and to which no variation is allowed is the Symbol of Faith (Nicene Creed). Anyone who does not agree to the text of the Symbol of Faith cannot rightly define himself or herself as Eastern Orthodox. Phiddipus 15:18, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
This two churches are both officialy recognized in Moldova. Moldovan Metropolitan Church is under the Patriarchiate of Moscow. Metropolitan Church of Bessarabia is under the Patriarchiate of Romania. Accroding to a 2000 survey ( http://www.azi.md/news?ID=8910), 73% of Moldovans declared their affiliation to a church. Of those 73% (3,200,000 people), 60% declared they belong to the Moldovan Metropolitan Church (1,900,000 people), and 23% declared they belong to the Metropolitan Church of Bessarabia (750,000 people). The survey was conducted in 2000, only on the right bank of Dniester. -- Danutz
Let's be clear: it's not for us to say that the Orthodox Church does follow Christian tradition more closely than other churches. We can say that it claims to, and then we need to note that this claim is disputed by other Churches. The articles on Protestantism and Roman Catholicism work the same way. It's disappointing to see the lack of objectivity present in this article compared to the coverage of other denominations. In terms of factual accuracy, I genuinely view the earlier view of the introduction as more accurate. In particular, the "largest body of Christians" claim would need a source to remain. With that in mind, I will put the intro back to the earlier version. Slac speak up! 23:51, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
Apologies for the strong words, but I simply think that this is plainly and simply a biaised reading of facts. As a Catholic, I might make edits to the Roman Catholic Church article that could be seen as supporting its claim to be the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, but these would be in violation of NPOV. Similarly, approaching the article from your perspective, and making universally favourable edits to the content of the article is a good indication that you are in violation of NPOV. Slac speak up! 00:58, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
It is not at all correct that Orthodox Christians are normally free to cut themselves off from bishops who, in their private opinions, are teaching incorrectly. This is nothing more than veiled Protestantism. Those who claim this is the correct mindset love to cite certain historical examples. Even a cursory examination of the history of the Orthodox Church reveals that these instances are extraordinarily rare. I can think of exactly three examples over the past 2,000 years where this kind of action was justified, and there are no such modern issues. It does not deserve a mention as if it were normative ecclesiology. My recently eradicated change to this section reflected the actual Orthodox teaching on the subject.
I am aware that some do feel that there are modern issues that can justify this kind of action, as the article now reflects and as it reflected prior to my edit. I think the repeated use of the word "jurisdiction" is revealing here. It's something that only takes on a meaning seperate from a geographically local church in modern America, and was not commonly used until the modern uncanonical American situation arose. It requires a modern American Protestant mindset for an Orthodox Christian to constantly sit in judgement of his bishops. I suggest a re-reading of Sts. Ignatios of Antioch and Irenaeus of Lyons.
But this kind of thing is why I generally don't contribute to this article. I hate to put it so strongly, but it's so slanted in favor of this strange ecclesiology, and keeps getting dragged back to it no matter what else is done, that it's practically useless. I'd be embarrassed to send anyone to it for unbiased information on the Orthodox Church. TCC (talk) (contribs) 21:36, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
Concerning this new entry, it is utter nonsense. Within the fold of the Orthodox Church, the Divine Liturgy, composed by Saint John Chrysostomos has remained virtually changeless since the 4th century AD. Slight variations in style have always been part of its regional practice as is described by Typica. There are numerous extent texts for comparison. While it is true that the church slowly, slowly evolves and grows, services such as the Divine Liturgy which are served by millions of people daily do not change. Indeed, there is no vehicle for them to change. Phiddipus 01:20, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
We determine who is teaching the truth by comparing what they say to those saints who came before them. We determine if they are upholding the traditions of the church and teaching them, or compromising and ignoring them for the sake of convenience. It is one thing for a bishop to exercise Ekonomia and allow a newly converted Orthodox Christian to eat cheese and eggs during his first fast, It is another to make it a general rule for everyone. It is one thing to allow one priest to dress in layman’s clothing because he also holds a secular job, and another to allow all his priests to dress like Roman Catholics with clean-shaven faces. It is one thing for a bishop to allow a service to be reduced (for the sake of an emergency) and another to allow the services to be shortened because the people just don’t want to be in church that long. And I haven’t even mentioned the half of it. When we allow such things as: Changing the calendar, sitting in church, moving feasts cause people don’t want to come to church on a week night, collecting money during services, not doing services (an Antiochian church I attended never did vespers or matins), Adding protestant hymns to the divine liturgy, baptizing by sprinkling; when we approach such things as trivial we are denying the TRUTH of them. These mysteries are not make-believe, they are ontological reality. Changes such as these are made, not for the glory of the church, but for the convenience of the complainers. Now understand, a bishop has the power of ekonomia; on an individual basis he can bend the rules; but what we are talking about are huge general changes that have nothing to do with ekonomia.
The liturgy has changed. It has been expanded and beautified. It has been clarified and been made to reflect more closely the reality of the heavenly liturgy through divine inspiration. You will not find that some Holy Saint ever said, “I can’t stand being in church for 4 hours, lets cut out all those petitions, and skip all those long prayers in the altar.” For 2000 years the church has grown and expanded and become more beautiful, her fruits are the Saints and her flowers are magnificent. This growth is not CHANGE, it is growth and clarification and revelation. But the change I am talking about is sudden, damaging, destruction of parts of the traditions of the church that have developed (not for convenience, but for glorification) but which are being chopped off because people cant be bothered to discipline themselves or because people place their own comfort before their spiritual health. Phiddipus 15:21, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
TCC (talk) (contribs) 19:39, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
I might suggest the following structure in order to better express What an Orthodox Christian is and what he believes. I would also like to avoid comparisons to other Christians if at all possible.
Introduction
1) What the Orthodox Believe
2) How the Orthodox Act
3) Who the Orthodox Are Historically
4) Current Issues
Phiddipus 14:46, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
I believe this to be incorrect: "Incense is burned during all services in the Eastern Orthodox Church except during seasons of Lenten abstinence." First, it's not used at all services -- not at the Hours, for example; nor, I believe, at Little Vespers. Second, I just looked through Bp. Kallistos' Triodion, Apb. Dmitri's Sluzhebnik, the Order of Divine Services book from St. John of Kronstadt Press, the Horologion from Holy Trinity Monastery, and the old Abridged Typikon and can find no support for the idea that incense is not offered during Lenten services. Certainly lots of incense is offered at the Presanctified Liturgy in any event, but even when there's no Entrance at Vespers as in Daily Vespers the church is censed at "Lord I have cried". So unless you can come up with a cite, I'm going to be fixing this bit. TCC (talk) (contribs) 07:18, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
While many people may agree that the pinnacle of “Russian” iconography may be “the Trinity” (really, “The Hospitality of Abraham”) by Andrei Rublev, I find it a bit disturbing (and he probably does too) that he acquired such fame, considering that he was a monk. I wonder on what they base his recognition as a saint. Phiddipus 15:57, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
How can it be said that the OT isn't used extensively in the services? At Vespers there are often three Old Testament reading called for, mostly from the Wisdom literature, and other books of the OT are read during Great Lent. The comparison to Protestantism here is misleading, since there is always an OT reading during the RC mass as well.
It is also not true that the Apocalypse is not used at all; it's read in its entirely in monasteries during Great Lent. (It's not part of the regular parish lectionary because it was a relatively late that its canonicity was universally agreed upon and by that time the lectionary was already set.) TCC (talk) (contribs) 21:35, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm a former Protestant having been raised in the Reformed tradition, and I tell you that use of the OT in Protestant services is no more "extensive" than it is for the Latins. I'm sorry, but what you have said here is simply incorrect. I also wonder if you understand the importance of the OT in Orthodoxy. St. Paul certainly seemed to think it was important. (It's the OT he talks about when he says "Scripture": the NT largely hadn't been written yet.) The reason we know Jesus is Christ is because of how the OT points to him, and not only in those prophecies that clearly do so but even in the figures given in the Law. To this extent it is very much for Christians, and can't be dismissed out of hand like this.
You're right about the Apocalypse here, but it's not clear in the article that you're talking strictly about the services. If that's what you're doing in the entire "Bible" section then I suggest that you not. Private study of the Scriptures is equally important and nowhere discouraged by the Fathers so long as one submits to the will of the Church in interpretation.
By the way, the dieresis is not commonly used in modern English orthography for doubled independent vowels. You find it more in British than American English, but even in British English you more often see the hyphen these days instead. Sometimes there's no indication at all of the syllable break, but rather the reader must determine it from context (as in "naive", formerly "naïve". TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:18, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
I edited this page to reflect the fact that there is no formal process of canonization in the Orthodox Church. I removed all references to the canonization where glorification was the proper term. I have referenced the sources on these changes. Argos'Dad
Please allow me, though an outsider, to make a general observation about this article. I can see why an article on Protestantism, which arose as a "protest" against Catholic practice and belief, should contain comparisons with the Roman Catholic Church. But surely the venerable Eastern Orthodox Church does not need to have recourse to comparisons with Western Christian tradition (either as preserved in the Catholic Church or as revised/reformed in the Protestant communities), in order to define itself, its doctrine and its practice. In other words, should not the article describe the Eastern Orthodox Church by what it is, not by what it is not? The "Roman Catholic Church" article seems to have needed no such comparisons. I hope no one is offended by this observation, which, though occasioned by a misrepresentation (now removed from the article) of one point of Western belief, is meant essentially as an expression of sincere respect and of the wish that nothing in the article should seem to diminish the greatness of the Eastern Orthodox Church.
Lima 11:58, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
It is my hope and realization that those of us who spend our little bits of free time here correcting errors realize that our work is useless and fruitless. The concept of the wikipedia may work for some subjects but not one that has “enemies”. Since there is no scholarly review, since there is no need to back anything up with hard data, since anyone can express his opinion, this particular subject, The Eastern Orthodox Church, should be considered by those who read it to be a mixture of truth and falsehood, unreliable as an information source. There have always been those who express their POV about certain aspects of the EOC in radical and innovative terms, and this has become their forum for a continual attack on what the Orthodox Church truly and traditionally believes. I have had numerous discussion here with highly intellectual members of the church who themselves see clearly the problems that occur when the less knowledgeable manage to undo all the work we have done with a simple edit. The current state of this subjects listing is appalling. What we have carefully stated to the wikipedia audience in order to be very clear, in order to be precise in what we say, in order not to invoke a theological error in the mind of the reader has been undone and rewritten by wishy-washy dilatants who have, at best, a new converts impression of things. I believe I have had done with it. It was a foolish venture to try and add to this base of knowledge. This wikipedia should be considered in the minds eye to be nothing more than a chalkboard of nonsense, at least in subjects such as this. Adieu, adieu. Phiddipus 22:39, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Two questions:
Would the Orthodox church accept women priests (apart from Mount Athos?
Mentioned mainly because they exclude females (apart, I think from cats and cows) and so would be excluded from this discussion.
I was asking out of curiousity: perhaps there should be a wider article "Women and the priesthood" stating the positions of the various religions.
How do the several different Orthodox churches differ? That is: if one went to (for example) a Russian Orthodox service and a Greek Orthodox one, would the differences be merely in the language used and the particular saints venerated, or would there be other differences?
A sentence or two on the latter might be useful for those wishing to know more about the subject (eg "The only difference between the various Orthodox churches are languages and local saints" or "The X Orthodox church is distinguished from others by...").
Use whatever variant/development of my comment(s) are appropriate (as other non-Orthodoxes will presumably be interested).
As additions have been made variously since the immediately previous sentence was added here, it still stands. Sometimes pointing out what is required (from someone more knowledgeable) is as useful as doing it oneself (g).
Are there equivalents of Hildegard von Bingham and Julian of Norwich - ie women who have a significant place in Orthodox theological activity?
I raised the point out of curiosity/seeing a gap.
There might well be room for a general article on " Women as theological figures" (there must be more than the above two, Elizabeth Fry, and the founder of the Shaker movement), Ann Wardley.
While I think this information is of considerable value, I question whether describing the rite in such detail belongs in an article that should really be an overview, as it takes a disproportionate amount of space. I suggest it be moved to a seperate article, with perhaps a "See also" link on the present page. TCC (talk) (contribs) 20:08, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
PS - That's assuming it renders as apparently intended, which it does not. TCC (talk) (contribs) 21:01, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
At the risk of appearing self-serving -- I recently clashed with this editor at Quartodecimanism and the process there is not yet complete -- I fail to understand why this link was not only restored and retained, but given the prominence of its own section. I have no problem with "outside perspectives" as such (a well-balanced Wikipedia article should be one of them) but since when do we tolerate vanity links in articles? The link was added by the webmaster of the site to which it points. The target page adds no real information; rather, it appears to serve no purpose but to allow the writer a forum for his own POV. How can this be justified? TCC (talk) (contribs) 03:06, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
Wow, all I can say is whoever wrote this either has very little grasp of Orthodox Theology, or very little understanding of the words he uses to express himself. He/She states:
Theosis is our Goal. St Basil states: We are to strive to become little gods, within God, Little Jesus Christs within Jesus Christ”. In other words we must seek perfection in all things in our lives, We must strive to acquire Godly Virtue. God through participation in mankind makes it possible for man to participate in Divinity. While it is true that we will not become “separate” gods in the pagan sense we will participate in the divine energies of God (which are not separate from God) and still retain our individuality.
Also He/She/ states:
This phrase alone is so badly constructed that it both implies that The Theotokos, was nothing more than the mother of Jesus (Nestorianism) and that she did not retain her virginity. Pretty much, the rest of what is written shows a very dim and clouded understanding of the process of salvation even while it claims to be at the very core of Orthodox Faith. Phiddipus 21:32, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Tix 02:39, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
For those who are interested, there has been created Category:Eastern Orthodox Wikipedians. To include yourself in that category, edit your user page to include: [[Category:Eastern Orthodox Wikipedians]]. —— Preost talk contribs 17:14, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Could someone please add a sentence or two on the subject to Women as theological figures (and any other religious viewpoints etc). Jackiespeel 23:11, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
I am from a traditional branch of the Greek Church. I have done a lot of traveling in Greece, the Holy Mountain, and abroad. I do find it is common that the inscription on the crossbar above Christ is not INBI but rather INBD. It was explained to me that this phrase (Jesus Christ the King of Glory) was to counter Pontius Pilates mocking, King of the Jews. This is not to say that there is anything wrong with the title King of the Jews, but when Pilate asks Christ about his kingdom he tells Pilate "My Kingdom is not of this world" and, of course, Christ kingdom does encompass all mankind, not just the Jews. So it seems wholly appropriate to replace INBI or INRI with INBD. Phiddipus 21:00, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
I have a number of photos showing this from the internet, can I email them to you. I can see if I can take a some next time I am in Greece. I also found a Russian cross. I don't read russian but it doesn't look like the Russian equiv of INBI, looks like it might say "The King of Glory". Of Course, I also do see INBI used frequently, but there doesnt seem to be a reason to state the obvious in the article, but the unusual difference. Phiddipus 16:46, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
I cannot find on Internet a picture clear enough to show INBD but I have seen this numerous times. Following are some examples I did find on the Internet showing the replacement inscription instead of “King of the Jews”
Icon – King of Glory [3]
Cross – King of Glory [4]
Cross – King of Glory [5]
Cross – King of glory [6]
Slavonic…I cant read but it might say King of Glory [7], [8]
Obviously any kind of abbreviation is acceptable if there is not enough room to spell it out. Phiddipus 22:33, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
I thought it was worth mentioning again that OrthodoxWiki exists, a wiki dedicated explicitly to Orthodox Christianity. You are all welcome to come and contribute. We're now up to almost 1300 articles. — Preost talk contribs 02:41, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
The recent edits by Soakologist [9] stating that the Eucharist is not at the center of Orthodox Christianity, but is rather at the center of its "practice" and not its "beliefs" is fundamentally an error. It is certainly the case that partaking of the Eucharist is a "practice," which is clear from the section as it now stands. However, to suggest that the Eucharist is somehow only a practice and not a matter of belief is to go against the very Scripture itself: "Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him" (John 6:53-56). This is quite clearly a matter of belief and not merely of practice.
Further, to separate a central practice such as any of the holy mysteries out from Orthodox belief is to create an opposition where none exists. Orthodoxy is fundamentally not a set of beliefs and a set of practices. Rather, it is a way of life whose beliefs and practices are bound up in one another. Put simply, one cannot be a believer in Orthodox Christianity and not partake of the Eucharist. That the Eucharist is the food of immortality is very much a central belief of Orthodoxy. —— Preost talk contribs 13:27, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
I was just reading the reasons why the article failed when it was nominated. It was so long ago and so many edits have been made since then, that it seems a certainty that issues have been sorted out. Could it be time to consider this article again as candidate for FA? Anagnorisis 03:50, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
I second that motion.
Miha sinkovec
20:16, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
There's a new template for Eastern Orthodox Wikipedians. Just add this code to your userpage: {{User eastortho}}
— Preost talk contribs 14:03, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
There's now another new template created by a user for Eastern Orthodox Wikipedians. Just add this code to your userpage: {{User Orthodox Christian}}. -- Aquarius Rising 21:44, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
Given the idiosyncrasies which seem to keep creeping into this article and the general mess that other articles pertaining to Eastern Orthodoxy are in on Wikipedia, what would everyone think of putting together a WikiProject titled WikiProject Eastern Orthodoxy? — Preost talk contribs 20:03, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
A new article is titled Holy Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church in America. It used some inappropriate first-person language, some of which I've fixed. It is deficient in other articles linking to it and probably could still use some cleanup. It seems to have been created by a new Wikipedian who hasn't yet done anything else. Perhaps readers of this page can help. Michael Hardy 00:26, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
No offense, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why this article isn't a featured article. Right now I'm trying to clean it up, and I hope people will cooperate and help, and let me know if I do something wrong. Tix 02:35, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
The FYROM/Macedonia keeps getting added to and removed from the intro paragraph listing the countries where Orthodoxy is the strongest. Certainly, some of the population there is Orthodox, but church there is not recognized by any of the mainstream churches which are generally held to make up the Eastern Orthodox Church. Any solution to this? My own view is that Macedonia shouldn't be listed there, because only a little over half of the population self-identifies as Orthodox, as that identification isn't affirmed at this point by the rest of Orthodoxy in any normal way.
What say you? — Preost talk contribs 23:30, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
In terms of NPOV, I think some mention should still be made of Macedonia. I would suggest that mention be made that it is not included in the relevant paragraph but that, notwithstanding thiat, what is now the Republic of Macedonia is traditional home to many Orthodox; that because of issues with the Serbian church, the Macedonian church declared itself autocephalous; and that the said autocephaly is not recognized by the rest of Orthodoxy. It would be a shame to exclude some mention of Macedonia, as I'm sure that a large number of the autocephaleous Macedonian parishioners are faithful Orthodox despite the canonical/jurisdictional issues. -- Aquarius Rising 23:45, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Rather than me doing a revert at this moment, can someone cogently justify the view that ROCOR is a non-mainstream church? As far as I know, it is mainstream. -- Aquarius Rising 00:06, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
P.S.: By the same token, wouldn't OCA therefore also be non-mainstream? And what does "mainstream" mean? -- Aquarius Rising 00:14, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
To place the term Original sin in context: God created man perfect with free will and gave man a direction to follow. Man chose rather to disobey God thus changing the perfect nature of man to the flawed nature of man. Therefore this flawed nature and all that has come from it it a result of that Original Sin. Because we participate in humanity, we share in the sin of Adam as we are human as he was human. This change of Nature in humanity is the reason Christ God united his divine nature to man, to alter that nature and thus save man from Hell. All humans participate in human nature including the Virgin mary (Why we reject the immaculate conception) That Original sin is cleansed in humans through baptism or, in the case of the Theotokos, the moment Christ took form within her.-- Phiddipus 03:09, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
The following language was inserted in the article and changed:
with the edit summary that Protestantism is not a grouping in the relevant sense. This is strongly debatable; more seriously, the changed language will mislead many English-speakers, who will see an implication that Protestantism has fewer adherents than Orthodoxy.
Another sentence may be warranted, saying that there are fewer Orthodox than Protestants as a whole, but more than Lutherans or Calvinists or any other variety - but that may be an unnecessary lengthening. Septentrionalis 04:13, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Catholic 1,050,000,000 - Orthodox/Eastern Christian 240,000,000 - Pentecostal 105,000,000 - Reformed/Presbyterian/Congregational/United 75,000,000 - Anglican 73,000,000 - Baptist 70,000,000 - Methodist 70,000,000 - Lutheran 64,000,000 - Jehovah's Witnesses 14,800,000 - Adventist 12,000,000 - Latter Day Saints 12,500,000 - Apostolic/New Apostolic 10,000,000 - Stone-Campbell ("Restoration Movement") 5,400,000 - New Thought (Unity, Christian Science, etc.) 1,500,000 - Brethren (incl. Plymouth) 1,500,000 - Mennonite 1,250,000 - Friends (Quakers) 300,000
I am still having a problem with with the way this sentence is written. OK lets use communion. Eastern Orthodoxy is the largest communion after Roman Catholosism - this is true. What is incorrect is to compare it to an amorphous grouping such as protestantism since this is not a single communion and Orthodoxy is not a group. You can compare the number of apples produced each year to oranges, but its misleading to compare the number of apples to the number of all varieties of other citrus fruit in the world. -- Phiddipus 06:17, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
This article is VERY long. I have moved the full text of the marriage section to a new article - Marriage in the Eastern Orthodox Church - and put a cut down version in this article. Both the new summary here, and the new article, of course, still need a bit of tidying up. -- DogsBreakfast 16:59, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
"even in 1054, there was more than just Constantinople in the EO world"
Like what else? Miskin 17:20, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem and Cyprus, just as all "authocephalus" bodies of Greek clergy (then and today), were in practice under the guidance of the EP, and together they formed (and still do) the "Greek Orthodox Church". The first non-Greek body which acquired a real independent status was the Russian Church. All other autocephalus bodies, Greek or not, were subjects to the EP. An example of this is the Bulgarian Archbishopric of Ohrid. This is were the "first amongst equals" applies. I don't understand why the article doesn't focus at all on the history and creation of the modern Orthodox bodies and how they ended up acquiring independency from the EP. I don't understand why the article doesn't focus at all on the EP and the Greek Orthodox Church, mother of all Eastern Orthodox bodies. Miskin 08:54, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Each and every time the Latin Church thought of a union between the East and the West, they aimed at a union with Constantinople, which would include the rest of the Greek patriarchates (Jerusalem, Alexandria, etc). There are Western sources from the Fourth Crusade which explicitely mention that their holy mission would guarantee a union between the West and the East, whose head resides at Constantinople (I can quote for you if you like). Furthermore the Schism itself took place between Rome and Constantinople, not between Rome and Alexandria, Jerusalem and Antioch. They were categorised as "Eastern Churches" because of their submission to the EP. As you said it yourself, the forced de-Hellenization of Antioch was recent and has therefore nothing to do with the rest. My observation relies on the article's tendency to neglect the historical importance and 2000 year-old continuity of the EP, as if it were some common Orthodox body which recently acquired an autocephalus status. The much longer and detailed Britannica article, follows a completely different route. Miskin 14:16, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I realize that this issue has been hashed and rehashed a few times, but the current article is still not accurate. I also realize that many of the contributors to this article may not be aware of the scope of the traditions of the Orthodox Church and may be judging based on what their local church practices or what their particular “jurisdiction” is used to. I do not mean to sound inflammatory or nit-picky, but in order to reflect the teachings and practices of the Orthodox Church and present them to the world, it is necessary to encompass, as best we can, all of the conditions possible when relating to a subject, especially when such a condition is not uncommon. Many problems arise within this article because of language, the church being fairly new to the English speaking world, and the attempt to use pre existing terminology borrowed from western Christianity. So please, bare with me and look to the meaning of what I say, not necessarily the terminology I use. I will attempt to state it simply:
God forgives sins. Within the Church, ideally, in order to receive communion one should confess and have the prayer of forgiveness read over one by a priest. Only a priest can perform this function, and the priesthood is male. But to clarify, this reading of the prayer is not the Mystery itself, but only the last step before communing. The major part of the mystery occurs when the individual seeks out his spiritual “father” and confesses his sins. The mystery is that God speaks through the spiritual guide and that the follower must take it to heart exactly what his guide tells him. It has been said that no one, not even the ecumenical patriarch can override the words of a spiritual guide since this would be to deny the mystery. While a priest is necessary to read the prayer of forgiveness, he is not necessarily the person’s spiritual guide, nor is it necessary for him to hear ones confession. In such cases the priest usually asks the communicant if he has confessed to his spiritual guide, and then simply reads the prayer. This completes the mystery as a period completes a sentence, the mystery occurs as God working through the spiritual guide.
Now to the point; as it states in the article, sin must be dealt with on an individual basis. It must be filtered through human understanding. The Orthodox Church accomplishes this by the enlistment of spiritual guides. What it needs to state is that the spiritual guides can be male or female, spiritual fathers and mothers. A spiritual mother is not an uncommon thing. Women do hear confession. God works the Mystery as easily through women as through men. And there are many, many instances where women have more authority (abbesses in their convents) than even the Patriarch of Constantinople.
The terminology: Confessor, may be itself misleading. But to redefine it in Orthodox context, a Confessor is one who hears confessions, whom God speaks through, who guides spiritually his or her charges, who's authority cannot be overridden, and does all of this before having a priest (or himself) read the prayer of forgiveness before communion. This definition can apply to men as well as women.-- Phiddipus 16:28, 17 March 2006 (UTC)