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I think this was a good decision - this compromise seemed to have the broadest support. Fishhead64 14:57, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Actually, the only thing that's missing now is a disambiguation link saying that "Catholic, in this setting, means Roman Catholic, for other uses, see XXX". Dpotop 17:16, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, official sources aren't everything. After all, the Eastern Orthodox Church doesn't call itself that, but it is, however, the most commonly known term for it in English.
Anyhow, why don't you put up a new move request and create a section on this talk page dedicated to discussing another move? — Preost talk contribs 19:38, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, but I've not known very many members of the Eastern Orthodox Church who object to that designation. Thanks for the info on how to request a move. Dtbrown 22:29, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
To enter in on this discussion, I think "Eastern Rite Catholic Churches" is a good choice for naming this article because it combines the varying nomenclatures used over time for the same subject. By including the word "rite" in the title, it makes specific reference to the terminology preferred prior to the Second Vatican Council and a phrase generally used during that time period to refer to the phenomenon of churches of eastern origin that are in communion with The Holy See. As Vatican II and subsequent decrees have refined the definitions, "Eastern Rite" alone is not the best description, as these are recognized as autonomous churches, which are understood to be more than just Catholics who have liturgical variances. These churches are still understood as being rooted in the eastern family of liturgies, and leaving in the word "rite" illustrates this.
To be so specific in the title of the article as say "Eastern Catholic Autonomous Ritual Churches" is cumbersome and might not be recognized by a casual observer who is not as familiar with the evolution of the terms used in the naming this subject. By including the word "Catholic" (with a capital C), this eliminates the valid discussion that having an article entitled "Eastern Rite" should be on the actual liturgical rites used in the Christian East, both by churches in full communion with The Holy See and those that are not in communion. We would then have multiple subjects in one article, when we are really talking only about are those churches in full communion with The Holy See. Since another page was set up to list the various eastern liturgical traditions, we further reduce confusion by having this subject point specifically to the Eastern Catholic Churches, those churches in full communion with The Holy See.
No doubt this solution will fail to satisfy everyone. This subject can probably yield a near limitless debate, but I think the current title serves as a compromise of some of the different terminologies employed, and reduces some of the ambiguity that other choices potentially offer. As always, just my take on this matter.
MP 04:41, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
The point is well made in the article that "uniate" was a term once used by even Eastern Catholics. What's the point of including a photo of a church plaque on this issue? Seems a bit far afield for this article. Dtbrown 22:59, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
What present-day "scholarly" use? citation needed I am not denying that there is such use, but I do have difficulty in imagining what it could be. Lima 13:17, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
So not only must Eastern Catholics not be allowed their chosen self-designation for the title of this article, they must have the "uniate" label be a major focus of the article. Something is not right. Dtbrown 15:19, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for the new photos! They are beautiful!
I was thinking that an article entitled "Uniatism" would be a good addition to Wikipedia. Could be controversial to edit as there are many viewpoints on that, but your original picture would fit well there. Dtbrown 00:55, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Lima,
I had referenced this Vatican webpage to substantiate the use of "sister church" referring to the relationship of the Eastern Catholic Churches:
You removed it and said it was used of non-Catholic Eastern Churches. The actual reference I made does not limit it to non-Catholic Churches. It can refer to "Catholic and non-Catholic Churches":
11. One may also speak of sister Churches, in a proper sense, in reference to particular Catholic and non-catholic Churches;
Would you have any other objections to my re-inserting that into the article? Dtbrown
"Rite" is still used of these Catholic particular Churches. Note, for instance, the phrase "In response to this proclamation, the “symbol of faith” is recited after the homily for the Latins and Armenians, or after the transference of the gifts, for the Byzantines and other Eastern Rites." in the Lineamenta of the still very recent Assembly of the Synod of Bishops. There is absolutely no need (no justification, even) to outlaw the expression, while, on the other hand, it is quite lawful to maximize use of a different expression. Lima 18:37, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Before we begin a lengthy battle I'd like to have some discussion. I am puzzled by Lima's insistence on referring to Eastern Catholics as "Rites." Let me state from the outset that I'm an Eastern Catholic. This is something we are quite sensitive about. I don't know why Lima wants to offend Eastern Catholic readers of this site by the continued edits which harken back to earlier terminology. I think the interpretation given by the National Council of Catholic Bishops trumps any interpretation given by Lima. I would ask Lima to find a contemporary statement by Catholic hierarchy that gives a different interpretation. Dtbrown 22:46, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
The term "rite" is problematic because of its ambiguity. The "Rite of the Sacrament of Penance" is the liturgy for that sacrament. The "Antiochene Rite" can mean the set of liturgical practices and symbols associated with that tradition -- hence, liturgies used by both Catholic and Orthodox Christians. The "Byzantine Rite" is used by a variety of Christians in Europe, etc. Where the term comes up in this context in modern documents, it is usually expressed as "ritual churches." Just as Uniate is offensive to many Eastern Catholics, so reduction of their tradition to the term rite often seems to be. Hence, it would seem to be best to use the "style" and vocabulary employed by the Congregation for the Oriental Churches, which uses Oriental or Eastern Rite as the term for all the churches of the East (distinguihsed from Western or Latin Rite for the West), and refers to individual sui juris groups as "churches"m, as Maronite Catholic Church, Ukrainian catholic Church, Coptic Catholic Church, etc. The Code itself is the Code of Canon Law for the Eastern Churcxhes, for instance, and in the instruction on the congregation, they are referred to as "churches sui juris. So, to be consistent and, since this is an article about Catholicism, we should uses Catholicism's own, self-defined, current terminology, even if one makes a NPOV comment upon the facts.
HarvardOxon 22:59,
16 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm agreeing with you. I think your terminology more closely reflects official/Congregation policy than does LIma's.
HarvardOxon
23:48, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Lima, what conversations are you referring to? "Immaterial"? Are you a lawyer? I removed the paragraph which obviously failed the NPOV test: "They thus reject the use of the terms "Roman Catholic" and "Roman Catholic Church" to refer to the entire Catholic Church, in spite of the fact that this is the meaning of the term "Roman Catholic Church" in the papal encyclicals." You sound like you're trying to convict us or something. Dtbrown 05:06, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
I referred to whatever conversations Dtbrown called "these conversations", perhaps wrongly presuming he referred to the Talk page. Anyway, let's just discuss the article. Lima 06:37, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
I am deleting the sentence stating that the distinction between Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox is "impossible in most languages [other than English], as a quick look at the language links on the left of the article suggests quite the opposite. Other languages simply resort to other means to convey the same semantic distinction fr: orthodoxe / oriental-orthodoxe, with Spanish and Portuguese using the same system de: östlich-orthodox / altorientalisch-orthodox, or orthodox / orientalisch-orthodox (cf. fr) hr: pravoslavne / istočne pravoslavne (same as fr, es, pt...) ru: православный / древневосточный or восточный...
All languages linked to on the left of this article are able to make the distinction. As for the distinction not being universally accepted in English, it is probably a good idea to have a look at Talk:Oriental_Orthodoxy#About_the_term_"Oriental_Orthodox"
Philippe Magnabosco 09:23, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I have returned the Georgian Byzantine Rite Catholic information to this article because I believe it is worthy to note this instance here where the "sui juris" churches are listed. This group is not a "sui juris" church but has been listed in various places, mostly pre-Vatican II, as if it were.
69.68.167.247 17:56, 29 October 2006 (UTC)A
In the first section, the monastic life of clergy in the United States and Poland are mentioned. However, this implies that the Eastern Rite churches are a significant population in these countries. It is probably particularly false for Poland, who's population is roughly 95% Roman Catholic, thus Latin Rite. Either the mention was misinformed, or it is a mention which succeeds in implying that Poland is a predominantely Eastern Rite country. I would think there are other countries with larger Eastern Rite populations with clergy that follow a monastic way of life that Poland which would at most have 1-2%, if that much. -- 24.91.40.69 02:41, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Anyone care to comment at Talk:Ethiopian Catholic Church on the use of "Ethiopian Catholic Church" (a term that Eritreans reject) rather than "Ethiopic Catholic Church"? Lima 11:25, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Alright folks, I'm proposing moving the article to Eastern Catholic Churches. I'm an Eastern Catholic myself and I'm fed up of this article having the wrong name. InfernoXV 17:38, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
The result of the debate was PAGE MOVED (by Gentgeen) per discussion. - GTBacchus( talk) 07:08, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Eastern Rite Catholic Churches → Eastern Catholic Churches — consensus reached on move: 5 editors support, none oppose. Please see discussion for details Majoreditor 20:37, 17 February 2007 (UTC) - discussion area created by SigPig | SEND - OVER 01:31, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
We've had good input over the past three weeks. Is there any more discussion? Majoreditor 19:25, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
The quote from the Vatican web page uses the phrase "ad quiquennium" in describing the Congregation of the Oriental Churches. Is this a misspelling of quinquennium (meaning a period of five years)? And if so, shouldn't the article say that the appointments are for a five year term rather than using a Latin term few general readers are familiar with? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.196.22.166 ( talk) 01:43, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Andy Warhol says "Warhol was a practicing Byzantine Rite Catholic ". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Warhol#Religious_beliefs
I'd like to link Byzantine Rite Catholic, but I'm not sure where it should direct. Anybody? Thanks. (Crossposted to Talk:Byzantine Rite ) -- Writtenonsand 15:36, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Warhol was in fact a Lemko/Rusyn/Ruthenian by ethnicity (his original name was "Warhola") and grew up in that rite, which has been variously styled Ruthenian, Carpatho-Rusyn and Byzantine over the years (most congregations under the jurisdiction now simply call themselves, for instance, "St. Michael's Byzantine Catholic Church," though around the block there may be an "Assumption Ukrainian Catholic Church," also by ritual "byzantine," but by jusrisdiction under Philadelphia rather than Pitssburgh). Warhol is buried in a Ruthenian cemetery with an Eastern style cross on the stone. However, he did attend St. Vincent Ferrer (I actually saw him there, sometimes in the middle of the day when the church was otherwise empty, all alone in the in prayer). As mentioned above, his technical rite would have remained Byzantine/Ruthenian, had he chosen to become a priest for instance or had children to be baptized. However, Catholic is Catholic and any Catholic can actually worship in any parish. The technicality of ritual jurisdiction would not have been an issue in his daily worship life. HarvardOxon 04:57, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
How about saying that he was raised a Byzantine Rite (Ruthenian) Catholic, and that he remained a practicing Catholic throughout his life? john k 18:01, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Look I attended many countries and places in the mid east. I have never seen any practicing Eastern Catholic churches. Also you guys used the term in communication with the Pope of Rome far too many times. The Pope of Rome is not a recognised Church see anymore, his regime is called a Papacy and his order are the papists. The term Kotholikon as is typically in the East describes their cathedrals that practice Byzantine or Hellenic Liturgy not Latin.
Since your article has no proof or evidence to the existance of an Eastern Catholic church. I have reverted and will continue to do so. The moment the Katholik church split it formed the Orthodox and Papal Church. There never was an Eastern Catholic church nor do they exist. Yes even Orthodoxy is in communion with the Papacy, the monks of Athos are and always will be in protest for the communion because the Pope of Rome is not the authentic and legitimate appointed bishop of that see. The Bishop of Constantinople must send Three Bishops with acknowledgment from teh other sees before nominating the new Bishop. The process has not been conducted for centuaries leaving the see of Rome unoccupied till today. Do not confuse Catholic faith with Papal faith.
I'm amazed at how much discussion this topic has received!! :-) Spiritquest ( talk) 18:14, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
The official name is not The Roman Catholic Church, it is The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. It is composed of Roman Catholics (or 'Latins'), Greek Catholics (including Melkites, Uniates), Maronites, Syrian Catholics, Chaldean Catholics et cetera.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.1.229.15 ( talk • contribs)
The question of the title of the Communion of Christians in union with the Bishop of Rome is a vexed one in Wikipedia. As a Catholic myself I can understand that some Catholics might object to the term Roman Catholic Church. Catholics do not generally use the term; historically it was used by Christian denominations (principally Anglican in the English-speaking world)) who also called themselves Catholic (catholic in the sense of universal).For Catholics, to say Roman Catholic Church makes as much sense as saying the Washingtonian United States or the Londonian United Kingdom. However, it seems that this is the convention used in Wikipedia. It is convenient, and distinguishes Catholics in communion with the Bishop of Rome, of whatever liturgical observance, from other Christians calling themselves Catholic. The term 'One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church' comes from the Apostles' Creed and the Nicene Creed. Many Christian communions use this phrase, and so is not exclusively a title of the Catholic Church.-- Gazzster 22:26, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
The Church refers to itself by several different terms depending on who we are having talks with. Internally, Catholic Church seems to be most prevalent but so too is Church of God, Church of Christ, or the Church of the Saints (in that all Saints in Heaven are considered members). Legally, the word Ecclesia is all that need be used and is all that is used in Cannon Law as well as how the Church describes itself in the legal code of other countries. The other "names" are then really just descriptions or agreed upon local language lingo. Officially, this Latin word consist of the name of the Church (and is translated as The Church) and even the Eastern Catholic Churches are legally described with this. The Greek word of same meaning and origin is not held to be propiatary by the Church. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.36.194.188 ( talk) 07:42, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Let us cooperate in improving the text. Here are some of my difficulties with Jonathan Tweet's version. I am sure he will modify it in view of them.
Perhaps Dr M will accept at least some of my variations, if I explain them.
I regret to have to say that the anonymous editor at IP 74.171.49.250 is not above inserting false quotations. That editor wrote that the source already included in the article had the following text: "The term 'uniate' itself, once used with pride in the Roman communion, had long since come to be considered as pejorative. 'Eastern Rite Catholic' also was no longer in vogue because it might suggest that the Catholics in question differed from Latins only in the externals of worship. The Second Vatican Council affirmed rather that Eastern Catholics constituted churches, whose vocation was to provide a bridge to the separated churches of the East, although many of the Orthodox faith believe that to reunite the two churches, they should return the the original church (Orthodoxy) with a group of patriarchs as the head as it has always been, instead of turning Orthodoxy to the authority of one person (the pope)". What the text in fact has, as can be checked, is: "The term 'uniate' itself, once used with pride in the Roman communion, had long since come to be considered as pejorative. 'Eastern Rite Catholic' also was no longer in vogue because it might suggest that the Catholics in question differed from Latins only in the externals of worship. The council affirmed rather that Eastern Catholics constituted churches, whose vocation was to provide a bridge to the separated churches of the East. But if, as subsequent dialogue was emphasizing, the Orthodox churches themselves are truly 'sister churches,' already nearly at the point of full communion with the Roman Church, what rationale-apart from purely pastoral concern for Christians who might otherwise feel alienated and possibly betrayed-can there be for the continued existence of such 'bridge churches'?"
This surely is not acceptable behaviour. Lima ( talk) 19:55, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
As a complete outsider to Catholicism I came to this page with a question I expected to be fairly simple: How did the Eastern Catholic Churches come to be, and when? What is the story? Were they once affiliated with Eastern Orthodoxy but then later re-established communion with Rome, or are they churches which never split with Rome when the Eastern Orthodox churches did? I never found a clear answer to either of these questions in this article. I would think information as basic and important as that should be prominently discussed in an article like this, and easy to find. I would greatly appreciate someone adding this information to the article, or else clarifying it if the info is already there, because I couldn't find it. Spiritquest ( talk) 21:05, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
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![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I think this was a good decision - this compromise seemed to have the broadest support. Fishhead64 14:57, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Actually, the only thing that's missing now is a disambiguation link saying that "Catholic, in this setting, means Roman Catholic, for other uses, see XXX". Dpotop 17:16, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, official sources aren't everything. After all, the Eastern Orthodox Church doesn't call itself that, but it is, however, the most commonly known term for it in English.
Anyhow, why don't you put up a new move request and create a section on this talk page dedicated to discussing another move? — Preost talk contribs 19:38, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, but I've not known very many members of the Eastern Orthodox Church who object to that designation. Thanks for the info on how to request a move. Dtbrown 22:29, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
To enter in on this discussion, I think "Eastern Rite Catholic Churches" is a good choice for naming this article because it combines the varying nomenclatures used over time for the same subject. By including the word "rite" in the title, it makes specific reference to the terminology preferred prior to the Second Vatican Council and a phrase generally used during that time period to refer to the phenomenon of churches of eastern origin that are in communion with The Holy See. As Vatican II and subsequent decrees have refined the definitions, "Eastern Rite" alone is not the best description, as these are recognized as autonomous churches, which are understood to be more than just Catholics who have liturgical variances. These churches are still understood as being rooted in the eastern family of liturgies, and leaving in the word "rite" illustrates this.
To be so specific in the title of the article as say "Eastern Catholic Autonomous Ritual Churches" is cumbersome and might not be recognized by a casual observer who is not as familiar with the evolution of the terms used in the naming this subject. By including the word "Catholic" (with a capital C), this eliminates the valid discussion that having an article entitled "Eastern Rite" should be on the actual liturgical rites used in the Christian East, both by churches in full communion with The Holy See and those that are not in communion. We would then have multiple subjects in one article, when we are really talking only about are those churches in full communion with The Holy See. Since another page was set up to list the various eastern liturgical traditions, we further reduce confusion by having this subject point specifically to the Eastern Catholic Churches, those churches in full communion with The Holy See.
No doubt this solution will fail to satisfy everyone. This subject can probably yield a near limitless debate, but I think the current title serves as a compromise of some of the different terminologies employed, and reduces some of the ambiguity that other choices potentially offer. As always, just my take on this matter.
MP 04:41, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
The point is well made in the article that "uniate" was a term once used by even Eastern Catholics. What's the point of including a photo of a church plaque on this issue? Seems a bit far afield for this article. Dtbrown 22:59, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
What present-day "scholarly" use? citation needed I am not denying that there is such use, but I do have difficulty in imagining what it could be. Lima 13:17, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
So not only must Eastern Catholics not be allowed their chosen self-designation for the title of this article, they must have the "uniate" label be a major focus of the article. Something is not right. Dtbrown 15:19, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for the new photos! They are beautiful!
I was thinking that an article entitled "Uniatism" would be a good addition to Wikipedia. Could be controversial to edit as there are many viewpoints on that, but your original picture would fit well there. Dtbrown 00:55, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Lima,
I had referenced this Vatican webpage to substantiate the use of "sister church" referring to the relationship of the Eastern Catholic Churches:
You removed it and said it was used of non-Catholic Eastern Churches. The actual reference I made does not limit it to non-Catholic Churches. It can refer to "Catholic and non-Catholic Churches":
11. One may also speak of sister Churches, in a proper sense, in reference to particular Catholic and non-catholic Churches;
Would you have any other objections to my re-inserting that into the article? Dtbrown
"Rite" is still used of these Catholic particular Churches. Note, for instance, the phrase "In response to this proclamation, the “symbol of faith” is recited after the homily for the Latins and Armenians, or after the transference of the gifts, for the Byzantines and other Eastern Rites." in the Lineamenta of the still very recent Assembly of the Synod of Bishops. There is absolutely no need (no justification, even) to outlaw the expression, while, on the other hand, it is quite lawful to maximize use of a different expression. Lima 18:37, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Before we begin a lengthy battle I'd like to have some discussion. I am puzzled by Lima's insistence on referring to Eastern Catholics as "Rites." Let me state from the outset that I'm an Eastern Catholic. This is something we are quite sensitive about. I don't know why Lima wants to offend Eastern Catholic readers of this site by the continued edits which harken back to earlier terminology. I think the interpretation given by the National Council of Catholic Bishops trumps any interpretation given by Lima. I would ask Lima to find a contemporary statement by Catholic hierarchy that gives a different interpretation. Dtbrown 22:46, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
The term "rite" is problematic because of its ambiguity. The "Rite of the Sacrament of Penance" is the liturgy for that sacrament. The "Antiochene Rite" can mean the set of liturgical practices and symbols associated with that tradition -- hence, liturgies used by both Catholic and Orthodox Christians. The "Byzantine Rite" is used by a variety of Christians in Europe, etc. Where the term comes up in this context in modern documents, it is usually expressed as "ritual churches." Just as Uniate is offensive to many Eastern Catholics, so reduction of their tradition to the term rite often seems to be. Hence, it would seem to be best to use the "style" and vocabulary employed by the Congregation for the Oriental Churches, which uses Oriental or Eastern Rite as the term for all the churches of the East (distinguihsed from Western or Latin Rite for the West), and refers to individual sui juris groups as "churches"m, as Maronite Catholic Church, Ukrainian catholic Church, Coptic Catholic Church, etc. The Code itself is the Code of Canon Law for the Eastern Churcxhes, for instance, and in the instruction on the congregation, they are referred to as "churches sui juris. So, to be consistent and, since this is an article about Catholicism, we should uses Catholicism's own, self-defined, current terminology, even if one makes a NPOV comment upon the facts.
HarvardOxon 22:59,
16 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm agreeing with you. I think your terminology more closely reflects official/Congregation policy than does LIma's.
HarvardOxon
23:48, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Lima, what conversations are you referring to? "Immaterial"? Are you a lawyer? I removed the paragraph which obviously failed the NPOV test: "They thus reject the use of the terms "Roman Catholic" and "Roman Catholic Church" to refer to the entire Catholic Church, in spite of the fact that this is the meaning of the term "Roman Catholic Church" in the papal encyclicals." You sound like you're trying to convict us or something. Dtbrown 05:06, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
I referred to whatever conversations Dtbrown called "these conversations", perhaps wrongly presuming he referred to the Talk page. Anyway, let's just discuss the article. Lima 06:37, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
I am deleting the sentence stating that the distinction between Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox is "impossible in most languages [other than English], as a quick look at the language links on the left of the article suggests quite the opposite. Other languages simply resort to other means to convey the same semantic distinction fr: orthodoxe / oriental-orthodoxe, with Spanish and Portuguese using the same system de: östlich-orthodox / altorientalisch-orthodox, or orthodox / orientalisch-orthodox (cf. fr) hr: pravoslavne / istočne pravoslavne (same as fr, es, pt...) ru: православный / древневосточный or восточный...
All languages linked to on the left of this article are able to make the distinction. As for the distinction not being universally accepted in English, it is probably a good idea to have a look at Talk:Oriental_Orthodoxy#About_the_term_"Oriental_Orthodox"
Philippe Magnabosco 09:23, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I have returned the Georgian Byzantine Rite Catholic information to this article because I believe it is worthy to note this instance here where the "sui juris" churches are listed. This group is not a "sui juris" church but has been listed in various places, mostly pre-Vatican II, as if it were.
69.68.167.247 17:56, 29 October 2006 (UTC)A
In the first section, the monastic life of clergy in the United States and Poland are mentioned. However, this implies that the Eastern Rite churches are a significant population in these countries. It is probably particularly false for Poland, who's population is roughly 95% Roman Catholic, thus Latin Rite. Either the mention was misinformed, or it is a mention which succeeds in implying that Poland is a predominantely Eastern Rite country. I would think there are other countries with larger Eastern Rite populations with clergy that follow a monastic way of life that Poland which would at most have 1-2%, if that much. -- 24.91.40.69 02:41, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Anyone care to comment at Talk:Ethiopian Catholic Church on the use of "Ethiopian Catholic Church" (a term that Eritreans reject) rather than "Ethiopic Catholic Church"? Lima 11:25, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Alright folks, I'm proposing moving the article to Eastern Catholic Churches. I'm an Eastern Catholic myself and I'm fed up of this article having the wrong name. InfernoXV 17:38, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
The result of the debate was PAGE MOVED (by Gentgeen) per discussion. - GTBacchus( talk) 07:08, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Eastern Rite Catholic Churches → Eastern Catholic Churches — consensus reached on move: 5 editors support, none oppose. Please see discussion for details Majoreditor 20:37, 17 February 2007 (UTC) - discussion area created by SigPig | SEND - OVER 01:31, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
We've had good input over the past three weeks. Is there any more discussion? Majoreditor 19:25, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
The quote from the Vatican web page uses the phrase "ad quiquennium" in describing the Congregation of the Oriental Churches. Is this a misspelling of quinquennium (meaning a period of five years)? And if so, shouldn't the article say that the appointments are for a five year term rather than using a Latin term few general readers are familiar with? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.196.22.166 ( talk) 01:43, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Andy Warhol says "Warhol was a practicing Byzantine Rite Catholic ". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Warhol#Religious_beliefs
I'd like to link Byzantine Rite Catholic, but I'm not sure where it should direct. Anybody? Thanks. (Crossposted to Talk:Byzantine Rite ) -- Writtenonsand 15:36, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Warhol was in fact a Lemko/Rusyn/Ruthenian by ethnicity (his original name was "Warhola") and grew up in that rite, which has been variously styled Ruthenian, Carpatho-Rusyn and Byzantine over the years (most congregations under the jurisdiction now simply call themselves, for instance, "St. Michael's Byzantine Catholic Church," though around the block there may be an "Assumption Ukrainian Catholic Church," also by ritual "byzantine," but by jusrisdiction under Philadelphia rather than Pitssburgh). Warhol is buried in a Ruthenian cemetery with an Eastern style cross on the stone. However, he did attend St. Vincent Ferrer (I actually saw him there, sometimes in the middle of the day when the church was otherwise empty, all alone in the in prayer). As mentioned above, his technical rite would have remained Byzantine/Ruthenian, had he chosen to become a priest for instance or had children to be baptized. However, Catholic is Catholic and any Catholic can actually worship in any parish. The technicality of ritual jurisdiction would not have been an issue in his daily worship life. HarvardOxon 04:57, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
How about saying that he was raised a Byzantine Rite (Ruthenian) Catholic, and that he remained a practicing Catholic throughout his life? john k 18:01, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Look I attended many countries and places in the mid east. I have never seen any practicing Eastern Catholic churches. Also you guys used the term in communication with the Pope of Rome far too many times. The Pope of Rome is not a recognised Church see anymore, his regime is called a Papacy and his order are the papists. The term Kotholikon as is typically in the East describes their cathedrals that practice Byzantine or Hellenic Liturgy not Latin.
Since your article has no proof or evidence to the existance of an Eastern Catholic church. I have reverted and will continue to do so. The moment the Katholik church split it formed the Orthodox and Papal Church. There never was an Eastern Catholic church nor do they exist. Yes even Orthodoxy is in communion with the Papacy, the monks of Athos are and always will be in protest for the communion because the Pope of Rome is not the authentic and legitimate appointed bishop of that see. The Bishop of Constantinople must send Three Bishops with acknowledgment from teh other sees before nominating the new Bishop. The process has not been conducted for centuaries leaving the see of Rome unoccupied till today. Do not confuse Catholic faith with Papal faith.
I'm amazed at how much discussion this topic has received!! :-) Spiritquest ( talk) 18:14, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
The official name is not The Roman Catholic Church, it is The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. It is composed of Roman Catholics (or 'Latins'), Greek Catholics (including Melkites, Uniates), Maronites, Syrian Catholics, Chaldean Catholics et cetera.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.1.229.15 ( talk • contribs)
The question of the title of the Communion of Christians in union with the Bishop of Rome is a vexed one in Wikipedia. As a Catholic myself I can understand that some Catholics might object to the term Roman Catholic Church. Catholics do not generally use the term; historically it was used by Christian denominations (principally Anglican in the English-speaking world)) who also called themselves Catholic (catholic in the sense of universal).For Catholics, to say Roman Catholic Church makes as much sense as saying the Washingtonian United States or the Londonian United Kingdom. However, it seems that this is the convention used in Wikipedia. It is convenient, and distinguishes Catholics in communion with the Bishop of Rome, of whatever liturgical observance, from other Christians calling themselves Catholic. The term 'One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church' comes from the Apostles' Creed and the Nicene Creed. Many Christian communions use this phrase, and so is not exclusively a title of the Catholic Church.-- Gazzster 22:26, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
The Church refers to itself by several different terms depending on who we are having talks with. Internally, Catholic Church seems to be most prevalent but so too is Church of God, Church of Christ, or the Church of the Saints (in that all Saints in Heaven are considered members). Legally, the word Ecclesia is all that need be used and is all that is used in Cannon Law as well as how the Church describes itself in the legal code of other countries. The other "names" are then really just descriptions or agreed upon local language lingo. Officially, this Latin word consist of the name of the Church (and is translated as The Church) and even the Eastern Catholic Churches are legally described with this. The Greek word of same meaning and origin is not held to be propiatary by the Church. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.36.194.188 ( talk) 07:42, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Let us cooperate in improving the text. Here are some of my difficulties with Jonathan Tweet's version. I am sure he will modify it in view of them.
Perhaps Dr M will accept at least some of my variations, if I explain them.
I regret to have to say that the anonymous editor at IP 74.171.49.250 is not above inserting false quotations. That editor wrote that the source already included in the article had the following text: "The term 'uniate' itself, once used with pride in the Roman communion, had long since come to be considered as pejorative. 'Eastern Rite Catholic' also was no longer in vogue because it might suggest that the Catholics in question differed from Latins only in the externals of worship. The Second Vatican Council affirmed rather that Eastern Catholics constituted churches, whose vocation was to provide a bridge to the separated churches of the East, although many of the Orthodox faith believe that to reunite the two churches, they should return the the original church (Orthodoxy) with a group of patriarchs as the head as it has always been, instead of turning Orthodoxy to the authority of one person (the pope)". What the text in fact has, as can be checked, is: "The term 'uniate' itself, once used with pride in the Roman communion, had long since come to be considered as pejorative. 'Eastern Rite Catholic' also was no longer in vogue because it might suggest that the Catholics in question differed from Latins only in the externals of worship. The council affirmed rather that Eastern Catholics constituted churches, whose vocation was to provide a bridge to the separated churches of the East. But if, as subsequent dialogue was emphasizing, the Orthodox churches themselves are truly 'sister churches,' already nearly at the point of full communion with the Roman Church, what rationale-apart from purely pastoral concern for Christians who might otherwise feel alienated and possibly betrayed-can there be for the continued existence of such 'bridge churches'?"
This surely is not acceptable behaviour. Lima ( talk) 19:55, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
As a complete outsider to Catholicism I came to this page with a question I expected to be fairly simple: How did the Eastern Catholic Churches come to be, and when? What is the story? Were they once affiliated with Eastern Orthodoxy but then later re-established communion with Rome, or are they churches which never split with Rome when the Eastern Orthodox churches did? I never found a clear answer to either of these questions in this article. I would think information as basic and important as that should be prominently discussed in an article like this, and easy to find. I would greatly appreciate someone adding this information to the article, or else clarifying it if the info is already there, because I couldn't find it. Spiritquest ( talk) 21:05, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
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