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Wikipedia is a good place to get information, but it also includes ridiculous POV, that not very "normal" person or so wrote:
Anti-Easter Christians
Some Christian fundamentalists reject nearly all the customs surrounding Easter, believing them to be irrevocably tainted with paganism and idolatry.
In addition, some Christians believe the holiday is named for the Babylonian goddess Ishtar ([1] ( http://www.origin-of-easter.com/) [2] ( http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t020.html) [3] ( http://www.lasttrumpetministries.org/tracts/tract1.html) [4] ( http://www.pathlights.com/theselastdays/tracts/tract_22n.htm) [5] ( http://www.tiral.com/2004/04/the_origins_of_.html)), but there exist no etymological indications that would support such claims. In lands where this goddess was historically known, the holiday was never called by any name resembling hers. unfortunatly I never meet one. What has easter has to do with Ishtar? GIVE ME A BREAK! - Pedro 12:47, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Of course they exist. There are plenty of morons around who don't know what they are talking about. Fundamentalists, JW's, SDA's, often delight in exhibiting their ignorance. No doubt they believe the moon is made of green cheese. Maybe we should put that in the article on the moon? Cestusdei 23:44, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
I accidentally deleted the link to the cartoon and can't remember how to do a revert. Dogface 21:02, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Changed "Lenten Season" to "Lent" as that is more conventional usage and will most likely be the search term. -- Carpentis
It should also be noted the Easter is almost an exclusively English term. Almost everywhere else Easter is known as some variant of the word Pascha (from Greek meaning passover).
Except for Germany where it’s called “Ostern”. -- Bombe
Keep content and wiki process separated: use "article", not "wiki page". - Patrick 11:25, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)
The religious symbolism of Easter is explicitly Christian, with many elements adapted from the Passover celebration in Judaism—for example, the image of Jesus as the Lamb of God, which is linked to the Jewish paschal lamb. The Christian celebration of Jesus' Resurrection also paralleled pagan celebrations of nature's rebirth in the spring; the traditional customs of Easter eggs and the Easter Bunnys (originally a hare) are both tied to pre-Christian paganism.
Some Christian fundamentalists reject nearly all the customs surrounding Easter, believing them to be irrevocably tainted with paganism and idolatry. The Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Easter at all, believing it to be entirely a pagan invention [1] [reference was added in the second iteration].
(diffs are highlighted)
The religious symbolism of Easter is explicitly Christian, with many elements adapted from the Passover celebration in Judaism—for example, the image of Jesus as the Lamb of God, which is linked to the Jewish paschal lamb. But Passover celebrated on Nisan 14th of Jewish calendar, though Easter doesn't celebrate on same date. Precisely,the early Christians celebrated the death of Jesus Christ, not resurrection of Him.(1 Corinthians 11:26) Then the Christian celebration of Jesus' Resurrection would come from pagan celebrations of nature's rebirth in the spring; the traditional customs of Easter eggs and the Easter Bunnys (originally a hare) would be both tied to pre-Christian paganism.
Some Christian fundamentalists don't celebrate nearly all the customs surrounding Easter, believing them to be irrevocably tainted with paganism and idolatry.
( 67.71.79.45) I have strong objections to the latter version. First, the quibble over the date of Passover isn't all that important, and implies nothing major; Passover celebrations were followed by the week-long Feast of Unleavened Bread, in those days regarded as a continuation of the Pesach feast. The point is, Easter and Passover are closely linked; they happened only a few days apart, the title "Lamb of God" was in use by the first century, and the overwhelming consensus among historians and believers is that the former is the main reason for the latter.
( 67.71.79.45) Second objection: Who thinks that early Christians didn't celebrate the resurrection of Jesus? Whoever it is, they're a tiny minority, and the article should make it clear that their opinion is rejected by the overwhelming majority of religious historians -- and its implication (that modern Christians shouldn't be celebrating the Resurrection either) is rejected by the vast majority of believing Christians.
( 67.71.79.45) So those are my objections. I of course welcome discussion and explanation.
snip
A few Christians do not celebrate it at all. Group A does so because Easter isn't in the Bible. Group B does so because they think Easter is a pagan holiday, which they should not celebrate. Group C believes both. These groups together are a tiny fraction of all self-described Christians.
The version seems to imply Baptists don't celebrate Easter. Having been involved with more than one baptist denomination for most of my life, I have never met a Baptist church which did not celebrate Easter. I'm not sure where this information came from, but it doesn't bear itself out in reality.
Hi! The whole article seemed to need a major revamping for organization and clarity, but since I saw that so many people have been revising it recently I didn't want to step on anybody's toes. Thus I put my revised version here: Talk:Easter-alt.
Some points about my revision:
My revised version breaks off from the main page version of April 11th 2004, 5:18 UST. Thus it does not incorporate any refinements made on the main page after that date. If you intend revisions to the current page, please check my proposed alternative to see if they are already incorporated there. If not, you may like to make your changes to my alternate so that it will be up-to-date if it ever replaces the current page!
Please, indeed, feel free to edit my alternate version just as if it were the main page; or if some old Wikipedia hand is willing to take the plunge and put it into the game, go for it. (I'm too shy myself.) Doops 01:36, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Update: On 5th May 2004, Talk:Easter-alt was swapped into the main page (thanks, Dogface); thus the major rewrite proposal (having been implemented) is over. Doops 22:18, 11 May 2004 (UTC)
We do not celebrate "our belief in" the Resurrection of Christ. We celebrate the Resurrection of Christ. To say that we celebrate our belief in it is an entirely different statement from saying that we celebrate our event.
I'll lay it out nice and simple:
Christ is risen, hooray for the Resurrection. We believe that Christ is risen. Hooray for the fact that we believe this.
See, two completely different things. Whether or not an event actually happened is a different matter altogether from whether or not one CELEBRATES that event. Dogface 18:05, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
Fair enough. But we should at least do something to make that sentence more NPOV. At one point I had it phrased "to celebrate the alleged ressurection of Jesus," but somebody changed that almost immediately. Any alternative compromise suggestions? Doops 19:57, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
OK, I'll answer my own question: I've had an idea. What do you think of it? Doops 20:00, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
I think it'll be very interesting to read an article about people born on Easter. -- webkid 12:23, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)
However, eggs were and are also associated with Christian Easter in places far away from Germanic influnce. Do we have references for this? As it is, it's just a blank assertion with no supporting evidence, so I'm taking it out of the article for now, pending a reference. It seems entirely plausible that eggs were introduced after Christianity assimilated the Germanic fertility festival and then propagated via Christianity into areas far from Germanic influences. Does anyone have any documentation of eggs being associated with Easter before the time when the Christian missionaries arrived in Germanic countries? Kwertii 03:09, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I have reluctantly removed the following Definition largely added by 81.86.141.61:
Although it contains elements that are correct, it is historically wrong, as the rest of the Easter page makes clear. It is based, almost verbatim, on the cited web page and linked pages thereto. The principal historical inaccuracy is that the medieval and modern methods of determining Easter began in 326. But Rome used its own methods until the fifth or sixth centuries and possibly for a couple centuries thereafter. Furthermore, "Paschal Full Moon" does not appear in the papal bull Inter gravissimas which promulgated the Gregorian calendar, nor is it even mentioned before the eleventh century — official definitions always use the "fourteenth day of the moon". Although the "Common Definition Errors" are mostly correct, it ignores the fact that the term "vernal equinox" is actually used in "Inter gravissimas". Related official publications of the late sixteenth century clearly state that all dates are whole days, not instants, and that they apply equally to the southern hemisphere. For more info see Computus. — Joe Kress 18:57, Dec 30, 2004 (UTC)
I don't understand why the date statements aren't simplified, i.e., "In Western Christianity, Easter is celebrated on the first Sunday following the first full moon after the vernal equinox. Thus, for Western churches, the earliest possible date of Easter is March 22 and the latest possible date is April 25." To get this basic statement, the reader almost has to read the whole article, and put the pieces together on their own. 71.244.163.156 23:39, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
One problem is that that phrase isn't actually accurate. Although the Western Church INTENDED that to be so, difficulties in actually determining the precise day and time of the full moon and the Vernal Equinox led the Western to adopt a 19-year moon cycle, which is called an "Ecclestiastical" or "Paschal" Moon, and is not necessarily that actual date of the real full moon. That's why you can calculate it with an algorithm. Carlo 02:54, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
The English translation of the Paschal troparion given here is atrocious. I apologize if putting it that way bothers anyone, but clarity has been sacrificed for the sake of preserving the Greek word order. I don't believe most English-speaking Orthodox Christians use it, and I'm substituting a clearer version. If another version would be preferable to someone I'd have no objection to it, but it ought to be good, comprehensible English. Csernica 03:21, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Hi Dogface. You forgot to sign.
No, of course not. But Shakespeare wrote good poetry. A poetic inversion is used where considerations such as scansion or rhyme scheme demand it. You certainly do not use them for no good reason and for fully half the text of the poem. If you did it would be as incomprehensible as the translation I replaced and not good poetry.
Besides, these weren't poetic inversions. They were slavish devotions to the Greek word order with some commas thrown in as a vain attempt to make them look like poetic inversions. That's neither good English nor good poetry. Csernica 00:42, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Can we agree to take the Easter bunny image down (or at least move it further down the page)? It really is only an ancillary and localized image barely associated with the historical meaning of this Christian feast, and it genuinely strikes me as tacky and somewhat insulting. Unless there are any serious objections, I'm going to put a more traditional image at the top. -- Preost 16:35, Feb 25, 2005 (UTC)
I'm rewording the reference here. Ásatrú is the name for the modern revival of the old Nordic religion, as the referenced article confirms, so it's a mistake to use it for the historical religion. Eostre is often presumed to be a fertility goddess, but the scant references give little support for that. The only sure association we have for her is the springtime Since her name appears etymologically connected with the dawn, she may simply represent the seasonal renewal and not "fertility" with all the baggage that tends to carry along with it. Csernica 00:53, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
As I was editing, I noticed that the section "Easter as a Germanic Heathen festival" seems to be in need of a major edit. It appears needlessly confrontational to me and there are some extremely awkward passages. However, I'm not willing to deal with the kind of controversy likely to be stirred up if I put my paws all over it at this time. Csernica 01:12, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The whole page appears to have been written (or edited) by someone with a serious Christian bent. Much doubt is cast over the pagan origins of the festival while none is cast on the equally dubious "resurrection".
This article on modern scholarship of Bede and Eostre is worth further research and incorporation:
http://www.themercury.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,12666249%255E3462,00.html
Ben 20:22, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Is Easter Monday in Poland. According to the information here in the traditions section here, it is also celebrated in Czech Republic (and thus probably in Slovakia), and I've heard of a similar custom in Russia. I'm not sure of the names for the day are the same in all Slavic countries, but it seems to be a traditon common to the Northern Slavs. I don't know enough about it, so I've put up a request for a Dyngus article. In the meantime, I added a note that it's also celebrated in Poland, and I divided the Non-religious Easter traditions section into geographical regions. -- Jpbrenna 23:53, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I reformated the table to make it more compact and easier to read. Could the rows where the western and eastern dates are the same have the cells be combined to give the date once? -- BrendanRyan 05:00, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Someone removed info about the Persians having springtime egg-painting tradition as "...clearly false...". I don't know about the Armenians, etc., but the Persians have been doing it as part of Noruz for centuries, so that much is true. -- Jpbrenna 23:23, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
I've got a number of serious problems with this and related articles and the 'facts' they are being reverted to;
1: Heathens? Come on. It is an almost exclusively perjorative term. They generally prefer 'pagans' (though that also has perjorative connotations) as a collective term or the name of the individual tradition they follow. 2: This page, Eostre, Ostara, Easter Bunny, Fakelore, et cetera are all polluted with patently false claims that the 'Eostre to Easter Bunny' connection was retroactively constructed by Neopagans. Jakob Grimm clearly drew the connection with extensive commentary in his Deutsche Mythologie of 1835... decades before any of the Neopagan movements even existed (e.g. Crowley was born in 1875). Do the math. Contrary to the claims on every one of these pages (and likely others) this was NOT a Neopagan invention. The culprit, if there is one, was the respected historian Jakob Grimm. 3: The above articles frequently say things like 'scholars agree that Bede was probably making it up'. Nonsense. Every major encyclopedia and reference text on the subject reports Bede's conclusion as accepted fact. The argument to the contrary is wholly a product of recent revisionists. CBDunkerson 02:49, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
I've found that jumping in and editing these types of entries doesn't always work, so I'll point out my problem here and the continual editors can take over (appears at the bottom of the page)
Basically this sounds like a sermon, and looks like it's a cut and paste job in places and preaching in others. The entire deal is hogwash, in my POV, as the Moon was used by Hebrews... but I assume that is what is being preached here. Not only does it smell of anti-Jewish propaganda that I hear and read elsewhere but it is a direct assult on Catholic beliefs. If there are points here, someone bring them out and drop the rest. Besides, misspellings and worse! Please Easter editors, help us readers out. A less controversal entry/article and I'd clean it up in a heartbeat. I must admit, I'm not a Christian so I don't think I have a place editing this article (simply because I don't know enough and would be very POV). I believe the word for this text is "juxtaposition" - the editor is stringing together bible quotes that don't belong together. Thank you for your considerations. JoeHenzi 14:39, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
While it is undoubtably true that Easter is more important than Christmas from a religious point of view, I believe that the intro ignores the ambiguities of the word "holiday" and is accordingly potentially misleading. In the UK for certain, and I believe in many other traditionally Christian countries, Christmas is much more important as a holiday/festive season or generally as a feature of the year. In the UK the difference in significance in favour of Christmas is vast. I'm going to amend the intro to reflect this. Bhoeble 23:51, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
You may be interested in the WikiProject, WikiProject Holidays, a WikiProject that will focus on standardizing articles about Holidays. It has been around for quite some time, but I'm starting it up again, and would like to see some more members (and our original members) around the help out. Cheers. — Ilγαηερ (Tαlκ) 21:14, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
The external links section seems to have reached the point where there are s many that everybody starts adding their own :-)
I have pruned it per my understandign of WP:EL and removed the following:
is rather POV and doesn't add to the article. Is it a source? If not, I don't see much point in linking it
Two links to one site (bad); no evidence that this is widely viewed as an authority; it doesn't appear to add anything to the article.
We don't need dozens of calculators, and this is a university subpage (they often go 404)
geocities pages not good sources; multiple links to the same geocities user looks like vanity
duplicates the purpose of the article, either it's a source or it's a distraction
Two links to a user page? looks like vanity. - Just zis Guy, you know? [T]/ [C] AfD? 11:40, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Although I just gave the section a copyedit, ISTM that this section is mainly an attempt at presenting the same material covered in the Quartodecimanism article and could be reduced to a summary. It also doesn't cover what it purports to (that is, Easter in the early Church), but simply addresses Quartodecimanism as though that were the only feature of the early Church's Paschal observances. Comments? — Preost talk contribs 14:16, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Removed section and link of promotional info for Brian Flemming's "War on Easter". Main article is on AfD and there is no WP:V or WP:RS coverage of this. If someone can post links showing that this story has been picked up and reported by major news media, I'll have no objection to it appearing here. Right now though, it is promo material for a stunt that has gotten zero coverage.-- Isotope23 19:32, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=49678
I don't know if thats a good enough news site, but its not like it has to be about WarOnEaster.org. I thought it would fall under controversies and there are news station talking about that.-- The Anti-Theist 00:47, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, yes and no. Yes, the date of Pascha on the Orthodox calendar does occasionally fall in May on the Gregorian calendar. But it never falls in May with respect to the Julian calendar by which its date is computed. So is that May or not? TCC (talk) (contribs) 02:05, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Pesach is not the origin of Easter. Pesach itself came from the Exodus of the Hebrews during the time of Moses. They were commanded to celebrate this exodus from generation to generation through Passover. (More can be found in Exodus chapters 11-12 regarding Pesach.) Some seem to think that Passover came from the Babylonians during the Babylonian captivity, however this occurred much much later in the history of Israel.
This article seems to be misleading and biased towards a Christian origin for Easter, however there are many articles which present the viewpoint that Christians merely adopted the cultural norm into their holiday practice. Here are a few links that I have found...
"Modern-day Easter is derived from two ancient traditions: one Judeo-Christian and the other Pagan. Both Christians and Pagans have celebrated death and resurrection themes following the Spring Equinox for millennia. Most religious historians believe that many elements of the Christian observance of Easter were derived from earlier Pagan celebrations."-- for more go to http://www.religioustolerance.org/easter.htm
(These links are a little less professioanl in its writing, but nonetheless talks about the origins of Easter and the churches use of it from a biblical perspective.)
http://www.bright.net/~1wayonly/easter.html http://www.kingshouse.org/easter.htm http://www.albatrus.org/english/festivals/easter/is_easter_pagan.htm http://www.thunderministries.com/pagan/easter/IsEaster.html
From the description box: "Observed By most Christians, although many non-Christians observe secular practices, especially in Australia, Canada, UK and the US"
Having lived both in continental Europe and North America, I don't see how Easter is any more prevalent as a secular holiday in the Anglosphere (Britain and its [former] colonies) than the rest of Western civilization. In Scandinavia, for instance, Easter is a public holiday and observed by pretty much anyone to a greater or lesser degree, and those countries are arguably more secular than Australia, Canada, et al. Perhaps it would be better to say "Observed by most Christians, as well as a secular holiday by most people in formerly majority-Christian countries", or something to that effect. Unigolyn 06:24, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Just to get THIS one off my chest: Apparently the Wikipedia Manual of Style does specify that periods and commas can go outside of quotation marks. But that's just wrong. I was a proofreader for five years for a large company. Inside is according to the New York Times Manual of Style and Usage and according to every single book you pull off your shelf. How do you change that? It's ridiculous. That usage is disagreed with by every publishing company in the country. Carlo 20:49, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
I would like to check one point. I have always thought that Easter is the most important holiday for Eastern Christians, while the Roman Catholics celebrate Christmas with much more pomp. However, I infer from our article that Easter is the principal holiday for all Christian denominations, Orthodox and Catholics alike. Can anyone sort it out for me? -- Ghirla -трёп- 09:00, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
This is an instance of "Do as I say, not as I do." From a doctrinal, soteriological, and otherwise spiritual standpoint, Easter is supposed to be more important. The reality appears to be quite the opposite. The vast majority of attention is given to Christmas in the West, and Easter is a very poor second when it comes to Western Christianity.
"Perhaps the earliest extant primary source referencing Easter is a 2nd century Paschal homily by Melito of Sardis, which characterizes the celebration as a well-established one."
This statement is misleading and anachronistic. Melito of Sardis was clearly a Quartodeciman, the "well-established" celebration was of course the biblical Quartodeciman ( Lev 23:5). 63.201.25.74 05:52, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
The statement is not at all misleading. The statement is merely to indicate early celebration of Pascha. Whether or not Melito observed "quartodecimian" usage is irrelevant to whether or not he celebrated at all. Point out specifically how a "quartodecimian" Pascha is not Pascha. Dogface 20:52, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Easter&diff=53815106&oldid=53814542
Philip Schaff's History of the Christian Church, volume 3, section 79, The Time of the Easter Festival states: "The feast of the resurrection was thenceforth required to be celebrated everywhere on a Sunday, and never on the day of the Jewish passover, but always after the fourteenth of Nisan, on the Sunday after the first vernal full moon. The leading motive for this regulation was opposition to Judaism, which had dishonored the passover by the crucifixion of the Lord. ... At Nicaea, therefore, the Roman and Alexandrian usage with respect to Easter triumphed, and the Judaizing practice of the Quartodecimanians, who always celebrated Easter on the fourteenth of Nisan, became thenceforth a heresy. Yet that practice continued in many parts of the East, and in the time of Epiphanius, about a.d. 400, there were many, Quartodecimanians, who, as he says, were orthodox, indeed, in doctrine, but in ritual were addicted to Jewish fables, and built upon the principle: “Cursed is every one who does not keep his passover on the fourteenth of Nisan.” <footnote: Exodus 12:15> They kept the day with the Communion and with fasting till three o’clock. Yet they were divided into several parties among themselves. A peculiar offshoot of the Quartodecimanians was the rigidly ascetic Audians, who likewise held that the passover must be kept at the very same time (not after the same manner) with the Jews, on the fourteenth of Nisan, and for their authority appealed to their edition of the Apostolic Constitutions. And even in the orthodox church these measures did not secure entire uniformity. For the council of Nicaea, probably from prudence, passed by the question of the Roman and Alexandrian computation of Easter. At least the Acts contain no reference to it. At all events this difference remained: that Rome, afterward as before, fixed the vernal equinox, the terminus a quo of the Easter full moon, on the 18th of March, while Alexandria placed it correctly on the 21st. It thus occurred, that the Latins, the very year after the Nicene council, and again in the years 330, 333, 340, 341, 343, varied from the Alexandrians in the time of keeping Easter. On this account the council of Sardica, as we learn from the recently discovered Paschal Epistles of Athanasius, took the Easter question again in hand, and brought about, by mutual concessions, a compromise for the ensuing fifty years, but without permanent result. In 387 the difference of the Egyptian and the Roman Easter amounted to fully five weeks. Later attempts also to adjust the matter were in vain, until the monk Dionysius Exiguus, the author of our Christian calendar, succeeded in harmonizing the computation of Easter on the basis of the true Alexandrian reckoning; except that the Gallican and British Christians adhered still longer to the old custom, and thus fell into conflict with the Anglo-Saxon. The introduction of the improved Gregorian calendar in the Western church in 1582 again produced discrepancy; the Eastern and Russian church adhered to the Julian calendar, and is consequently now about twelve days behind us. According to the Gregorian calendar, which does not divide the months with astronomical exactness, it sometimes happens that the Paschal full moon is put a couple of hours too early, and the Christian Easter, as was the case in 1825, coincides with the Jewish Passover, against the express order of the council of Nicaea."
Theodoret's Ecclesiastical History 1.9 records The Epistle of the Emperor Constantine, concerning the matters transacted at the Council, addressed to those Bishops who were not present: "It was, in the first place, declared improper to follow the custom of the Jews in the celebration of this holy festival, because, their hands having been stained with crime, the minds of these wretched men are necessarily blinded. ... Let us, then, have nothing in common with the Jews, who are our adversaries. ... avoiding all contact with that evil way. ... who, after having compassed the death of the Lord, being out of their minds, are guided not by sound reason, but by an unrestrained passion, wherever their innate madness carries them. ... a people so utterly depraved. ... Therefore, this irregularity must be corrected, in order that we may no more have any thing in common with those parricides and the murderers of our Lord. ... no single point in common with the perjury of the Jews."
63.201.25.74 06:19, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Wikipedia is a good place to get information, but it also includes ridiculous POV, that not very "normal" person or so wrote:
Anti-Easter Christians
Some Christian fundamentalists reject nearly all the customs surrounding Easter, believing them to be irrevocably tainted with paganism and idolatry.
In addition, some Christians believe the holiday is named for the Babylonian goddess Ishtar ([1] ( http://www.origin-of-easter.com/) [2] ( http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t020.html) [3] ( http://www.lasttrumpetministries.org/tracts/tract1.html) [4] ( http://www.pathlights.com/theselastdays/tracts/tract_22n.htm) [5] ( http://www.tiral.com/2004/04/the_origins_of_.html)), but there exist no etymological indications that would support such claims. In lands where this goddess was historically known, the holiday was never called by any name resembling hers. unfortunatly I never meet one. What has easter has to do with Ishtar? GIVE ME A BREAK! - Pedro 12:47, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Of course they exist. There are plenty of morons around who don't know what they are talking about. Fundamentalists, JW's, SDA's, often delight in exhibiting their ignorance. No doubt they believe the moon is made of green cheese. Maybe we should put that in the article on the moon? Cestusdei 23:44, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
I accidentally deleted the link to the cartoon and can't remember how to do a revert. Dogface 21:02, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Changed "Lenten Season" to "Lent" as that is more conventional usage and will most likely be the search term. -- Carpentis
It should also be noted the Easter is almost an exclusively English term. Almost everywhere else Easter is known as some variant of the word Pascha (from Greek meaning passover).
Except for Germany where it’s called “Ostern”. -- Bombe
Keep content and wiki process separated: use "article", not "wiki page". - Patrick 11:25, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)
The religious symbolism of Easter is explicitly Christian, with many elements adapted from the Passover celebration in Judaism—for example, the image of Jesus as the Lamb of God, which is linked to the Jewish paschal lamb. The Christian celebration of Jesus' Resurrection also paralleled pagan celebrations of nature's rebirth in the spring; the traditional customs of Easter eggs and the Easter Bunnys (originally a hare) are both tied to pre-Christian paganism.
Some Christian fundamentalists reject nearly all the customs surrounding Easter, believing them to be irrevocably tainted with paganism and idolatry. The Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Easter at all, believing it to be entirely a pagan invention [1] [reference was added in the second iteration].
(diffs are highlighted)
The religious symbolism of Easter is explicitly Christian, with many elements adapted from the Passover celebration in Judaism—for example, the image of Jesus as the Lamb of God, which is linked to the Jewish paschal lamb. But Passover celebrated on Nisan 14th of Jewish calendar, though Easter doesn't celebrate on same date. Precisely,the early Christians celebrated the death of Jesus Christ, not resurrection of Him.(1 Corinthians 11:26) Then the Christian celebration of Jesus' Resurrection would come from pagan celebrations of nature's rebirth in the spring; the traditional customs of Easter eggs and the Easter Bunnys (originally a hare) would be both tied to pre-Christian paganism.
Some Christian fundamentalists don't celebrate nearly all the customs surrounding Easter, believing them to be irrevocably tainted with paganism and idolatry.
( 67.71.79.45) I have strong objections to the latter version. First, the quibble over the date of Passover isn't all that important, and implies nothing major; Passover celebrations were followed by the week-long Feast of Unleavened Bread, in those days regarded as a continuation of the Pesach feast. The point is, Easter and Passover are closely linked; they happened only a few days apart, the title "Lamb of God" was in use by the first century, and the overwhelming consensus among historians and believers is that the former is the main reason for the latter.
( 67.71.79.45) Second objection: Who thinks that early Christians didn't celebrate the resurrection of Jesus? Whoever it is, they're a tiny minority, and the article should make it clear that their opinion is rejected by the overwhelming majority of religious historians -- and its implication (that modern Christians shouldn't be celebrating the Resurrection either) is rejected by the vast majority of believing Christians.
( 67.71.79.45) So those are my objections. I of course welcome discussion and explanation.
snip
A few Christians do not celebrate it at all. Group A does so because Easter isn't in the Bible. Group B does so because they think Easter is a pagan holiday, which they should not celebrate. Group C believes both. These groups together are a tiny fraction of all self-described Christians.
The version seems to imply Baptists don't celebrate Easter. Having been involved with more than one baptist denomination for most of my life, I have never met a Baptist church which did not celebrate Easter. I'm not sure where this information came from, but it doesn't bear itself out in reality.
Hi! The whole article seemed to need a major revamping for organization and clarity, but since I saw that so many people have been revising it recently I didn't want to step on anybody's toes. Thus I put my revised version here: Talk:Easter-alt.
Some points about my revision:
My revised version breaks off from the main page version of April 11th 2004, 5:18 UST. Thus it does not incorporate any refinements made on the main page after that date. If you intend revisions to the current page, please check my proposed alternative to see if they are already incorporated there. If not, you may like to make your changes to my alternate so that it will be up-to-date if it ever replaces the current page!
Please, indeed, feel free to edit my alternate version just as if it were the main page; or if some old Wikipedia hand is willing to take the plunge and put it into the game, go for it. (I'm too shy myself.) Doops 01:36, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Update: On 5th May 2004, Talk:Easter-alt was swapped into the main page (thanks, Dogface); thus the major rewrite proposal (having been implemented) is over. Doops 22:18, 11 May 2004 (UTC)
We do not celebrate "our belief in" the Resurrection of Christ. We celebrate the Resurrection of Christ. To say that we celebrate our belief in it is an entirely different statement from saying that we celebrate our event.
I'll lay it out nice and simple:
Christ is risen, hooray for the Resurrection. We believe that Christ is risen. Hooray for the fact that we believe this.
See, two completely different things. Whether or not an event actually happened is a different matter altogether from whether or not one CELEBRATES that event. Dogface 18:05, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
Fair enough. But we should at least do something to make that sentence more NPOV. At one point I had it phrased "to celebrate the alleged ressurection of Jesus," but somebody changed that almost immediately. Any alternative compromise suggestions? Doops 19:57, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
OK, I'll answer my own question: I've had an idea. What do you think of it? Doops 20:00, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
I think it'll be very interesting to read an article about people born on Easter. -- webkid 12:23, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)
However, eggs were and are also associated with Christian Easter in places far away from Germanic influnce. Do we have references for this? As it is, it's just a blank assertion with no supporting evidence, so I'm taking it out of the article for now, pending a reference. It seems entirely plausible that eggs were introduced after Christianity assimilated the Germanic fertility festival and then propagated via Christianity into areas far from Germanic influences. Does anyone have any documentation of eggs being associated with Easter before the time when the Christian missionaries arrived in Germanic countries? Kwertii 03:09, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I have reluctantly removed the following Definition largely added by 81.86.141.61:
Although it contains elements that are correct, it is historically wrong, as the rest of the Easter page makes clear. It is based, almost verbatim, on the cited web page and linked pages thereto. The principal historical inaccuracy is that the medieval and modern methods of determining Easter began in 326. But Rome used its own methods until the fifth or sixth centuries and possibly for a couple centuries thereafter. Furthermore, "Paschal Full Moon" does not appear in the papal bull Inter gravissimas which promulgated the Gregorian calendar, nor is it even mentioned before the eleventh century — official definitions always use the "fourteenth day of the moon". Although the "Common Definition Errors" are mostly correct, it ignores the fact that the term "vernal equinox" is actually used in "Inter gravissimas". Related official publications of the late sixteenth century clearly state that all dates are whole days, not instants, and that they apply equally to the southern hemisphere. For more info see Computus. — Joe Kress 18:57, Dec 30, 2004 (UTC)
I don't understand why the date statements aren't simplified, i.e., "In Western Christianity, Easter is celebrated on the first Sunday following the first full moon after the vernal equinox. Thus, for Western churches, the earliest possible date of Easter is March 22 and the latest possible date is April 25." To get this basic statement, the reader almost has to read the whole article, and put the pieces together on their own. 71.244.163.156 23:39, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
One problem is that that phrase isn't actually accurate. Although the Western Church INTENDED that to be so, difficulties in actually determining the precise day and time of the full moon and the Vernal Equinox led the Western to adopt a 19-year moon cycle, which is called an "Ecclestiastical" or "Paschal" Moon, and is not necessarily that actual date of the real full moon. That's why you can calculate it with an algorithm. Carlo 02:54, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
The English translation of the Paschal troparion given here is atrocious. I apologize if putting it that way bothers anyone, but clarity has been sacrificed for the sake of preserving the Greek word order. I don't believe most English-speaking Orthodox Christians use it, and I'm substituting a clearer version. If another version would be preferable to someone I'd have no objection to it, but it ought to be good, comprehensible English. Csernica 03:21, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Hi Dogface. You forgot to sign.
No, of course not. But Shakespeare wrote good poetry. A poetic inversion is used where considerations such as scansion or rhyme scheme demand it. You certainly do not use them for no good reason and for fully half the text of the poem. If you did it would be as incomprehensible as the translation I replaced and not good poetry.
Besides, these weren't poetic inversions. They were slavish devotions to the Greek word order with some commas thrown in as a vain attempt to make them look like poetic inversions. That's neither good English nor good poetry. Csernica 00:42, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Can we agree to take the Easter bunny image down (or at least move it further down the page)? It really is only an ancillary and localized image barely associated with the historical meaning of this Christian feast, and it genuinely strikes me as tacky and somewhat insulting. Unless there are any serious objections, I'm going to put a more traditional image at the top. -- Preost 16:35, Feb 25, 2005 (UTC)
I'm rewording the reference here. Ásatrú is the name for the modern revival of the old Nordic religion, as the referenced article confirms, so it's a mistake to use it for the historical religion. Eostre is often presumed to be a fertility goddess, but the scant references give little support for that. The only sure association we have for her is the springtime Since her name appears etymologically connected with the dawn, she may simply represent the seasonal renewal and not "fertility" with all the baggage that tends to carry along with it. Csernica 00:53, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
As I was editing, I noticed that the section "Easter as a Germanic Heathen festival" seems to be in need of a major edit. It appears needlessly confrontational to me and there are some extremely awkward passages. However, I'm not willing to deal with the kind of controversy likely to be stirred up if I put my paws all over it at this time. Csernica 01:12, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The whole page appears to have been written (or edited) by someone with a serious Christian bent. Much doubt is cast over the pagan origins of the festival while none is cast on the equally dubious "resurrection".
This article on modern scholarship of Bede and Eostre is worth further research and incorporation:
http://www.themercury.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,12666249%255E3462,00.html
Ben 20:22, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Is Easter Monday in Poland. According to the information here in the traditions section here, it is also celebrated in Czech Republic (and thus probably in Slovakia), and I've heard of a similar custom in Russia. I'm not sure of the names for the day are the same in all Slavic countries, but it seems to be a traditon common to the Northern Slavs. I don't know enough about it, so I've put up a request for a Dyngus article. In the meantime, I added a note that it's also celebrated in Poland, and I divided the Non-religious Easter traditions section into geographical regions. -- Jpbrenna 23:53, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I reformated the table to make it more compact and easier to read. Could the rows where the western and eastern dates are the same have the cells be combined to give the date once? -- BrendanRyan 05:00, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Someone removed info about the Persians having springtime egg-painting tradition as "...clearly false...". I don't know about the Armenians, etc., but the Persians have been doing it as part of Noruz for centuries, so that much is true. -- Jpbrenna 23:23, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
I've got a number of serious problems with this and related articles and the 'facts' they are being reverted to;
1: Heathens? Come on. It is an almost exclusively perjorative term. They generally prefer 'pagans' (though that also has perjorative connotations) as a collective term or the name of the individual tradition they follow. 2: This page, Eostre, Ostara, Easter Bunny, Fakelore, et cetera are all polluted with patently false claims that the 'Eostre to Easter Bunny' connection was retroactively constructed by Neopagans. Jakob Grimm clearly drew the connection with extensive commentary in his Deutsche Mythologie of 1835... decades before any of the Neopagan movements even existed (e.g. Crowley was born in 1875). Do the math. Contrary to the claims on every one of these pages (and likely others) this was NOT a Neopagan invention. The culprit, if there is one, was the respected historian Jakob Grimm. 3: The above articles frequently say things like 'scholars agree that Bede was probably making it up'. Nonsense. Every major encyclopedia and reference text on the subject reports Bede's conclusion as accepted fact. The argument to the contrary is wholly a product of recent revisionists. CBDunkerson 02:49, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
I've found that jumping in and editing these types of entries doesn't always work, so I'll point out my problem here and the continual editors can take over (appears at the bottom of the page)
Basically this sounds like a sermon, and looks like it's a cut and paste job in places and preaching in others. The entire deal is hogwash, in my POV, as the Moon was used by Hebrews... but I assume that is what is being preached here. Not only does it smell of anti-Jewish propaganda that I hear and read elsewhere but it is a direct assult on Catholic beliefs. If there are points here, someone bring them out and drop the rest. Besides, misspellings and worse! Please Easter editors, help us readers out. A less controversal entry/article and I'd clean it up in a heartbeat. I must admit, I'm not a Christian so I don't think I have a place editing this article (simply because I don't know enough and would be very POV). I believe the word for this text is "juxtaposition" - the editor is stringing together bible quotes that don't belong together. Thank you for your considerations. JoeHenzi 14:39, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
While it is undoubtably true that Easter is more important than Christmas from a religious point of view, I believe that the intro ignores the ambiguities of the word "holiday" and is accordingly potentially misleading. In the UK for certain, and I believe in many other traditionally Christian countries, Christmas is much more important as a holiday/festive season or generally as a feature of the year. In the UK the difference in significance in favour of Christmas is vast. I'm going to amend the intro to reflect this. Bhoeble 23:51, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
You may be interested in the WikiProject, WikiProject Holidays, a WikiProject that will focus on standardizing articles about Holidays. It has been around for quite some time, but I'm starting it up again, and would like to see some more members (and our original members) around the help out. Cheers. — Ilγαηερ (Tαlκ) 21:14, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
The external links section seems to have reached the point where there are s many that everybody starts adding their own :-)
I have pruned it per my understandign of WP:EL and removed the following:
is rather POV and doesn't add to the article. Is it a source? If not, I don't see much point in linking it
Two links to one site (bad); no evidence that this is widely viewed as an authority; it doesn't appear to add anything to the article.
We don't need dozens of calculators, and this is a university subpage (they often go 404)
geocities pages not good sources; multiple links to the same geocities user looks like vanity
duplicates the purpose of the article, either it's a source or it's a distraction
Two links to a user page? looks like vanity. - Just zis Guy, you know? [T]/ [C] AfD? 11:40, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Although I just gave the section a copyedit, ISTM that this section is mainly an attempt at presenting the same material covered in the Quartodecimanism article and could be reduced to a summary. It also doesn't cover what it purports to (that is, Easter in the early Church), but simply addresses Quartodecimanism as though that were the only feature of the early Church's Paschal observances. Comments? — Preost talk contribs 14:16, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Removed section and link of promotional info for Brian Flemming's "War on Easter". Main article is on AfD and there is no WP:V or WP:RS coverage of this. If someone can post links showing that this story has been picked up and reported by major news media, I'll have no objection to it appearing here. Right now though, it is promo material for a stunt that has gotten zero coverage.-- Isotope23 19:32, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=49678
I don't know if thats a good enough news site, but its not like it has to be about WarOnEaster.org. I thought it would fall under controversies and there are news station talking about that.-- The Anti-Theist 00:47, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, yes and no. Yes, the date of Pascha on the Orthodox calendar does occasionally fall in May on the Gregorian calendar. But it never falls in May with respect to the Julian calendar by which its date is computed. So is that May or not? TCC (talk) (contribs) 02:05, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Pesach is not the origin of Easter. Pesach itself came from the Exodus of the Hebrews during the time of Moses. They were commanded to celebrate this exodus from generation to generation through Passover. (More can be found in Exodus chapters 11-12 regarding Pesach.) Some seem to think that Passover came from the Babylonians during the Babylonian captivity, however this occurred much much later in the history of Israel.
This article seems to be misleading and biased towards a Christian origin for Easter, however there are many articles which present the viewpoint that Christians merely adopted the cultural norm into their holiday practice. Here are a few links that I have found...
"Modern-day Easter is derived from two ancient traditions: one Judeo-Christian and the other Pagan. Both Christians and Pagans have celebrated death and resurrection themes following the Spring Equinox for millennia. Most religious historians believe that many elements of the Christian observance of Easter were derived from earlier Pagan celebrations."-- for more go to http://www.religioustolerance.org/easter.htm
(These links are a little less professioanl in its writing, but nonetheless talks about the origins of Easter and the churches use of it from a biblical perspective.)
http://www.bright.net/~1wayonly/easter.html http://www.kingshouse.org/easter.htm http://www.albatrus.org/english/festivals/easter/is_easter_pagan.htm http://www.thunderministries.com/pagan/easter/IsEaster.html
From the description box: "Observed By most Christians, although many non-Christians observe secular practices, especially in Australia, Canada, UK and the US"
Having lived both in continental Europe and North America, I don't see how Easter is any more prevalent as a secular holiday in the Anglosphere (Britain and its [former] colonies) than the rest of Western civilization. In Scandinavia, for instance, Easter is a public holiday and observed by pretty much anyone to a greater or lesser degree, and those countries are arguably more secular than Australia, Canada, et al. Perhaps it would be better to say "Observed by most Christians, as well as a secular holiday by most people in formerly majority-Christian countries", or something to that effect. Unigolyn 06:24, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Just to get THIS one off my chest: Apparently the Wikipedia Manual of Style does specify that periods and commas can go outside of quotation marks. But that's just wrong. I was a proofreader for five years for a large company. Inside is according to the New York Times Manual of Style and Usage and according to every single book you pull off your shelf. How do you change that? It's ridiculous. That usage is disagreed with by every publishing company in the country. Carlo 20:49, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
I would like to check one point. I have always thought that Easter is the most important holiday for Eastern Christians, while the Roman Catholics celebrate Christmas with much more pomp. However, I infer from our article that Easter is the principal holiday for all Christian denominations, Orthodox and Catholics alike. Can anyone sort it out for me? -- Ghirla -трёп- 09:00, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
This is an instance of "Do as I say, not as I do." From a doctrinal, soteriological, and otherwise spiritual standpoint, Easter is supposed to be more important. The reality appears to be quite the opposite. The vast majority of attention is given to Christmas in the West, and Easter is a very poor second when it comes to Western Christianity.
"Perhaps the earliest extant primary source referencing Easter is a 2nd century Paschal homily by Melito of Sardis, which characterizes the celebration as a well-established one."
This statement is misleading and anachronistic. Melito of Sardis was clearly a Quartodeciman, the "well-established" celebration was of course the biblical Quartodeciman ( Lev 23:5). 63.201.25.74 05:52, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
The statement is not at all misleading. The statement is merely to indicate early celebration of Pascha. Whether or not Melito observed "quartodecimian" usage is irrelevant to whether or not he celebrated at all. Point out specifically how a "quartodecimian" Pascha is not Pascha. Dogface 20:52, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Easter&diff=53815106&oldid=53814542
Philip Schaff's History of the Christian Church, volume 3, section 79, The Time of the Easter Festival states: "The feast of the resurrection was thenceforth required to be celebrated everywhere on a Sunday, and never on the day of the Jewish passover, but always after the fourteenth of Nisan, on the Sunday after the first vernal full moon. The leading motive for this regulation was opposition to Judaism, which had dishonored the passover by the crucifixion of the Lord. ... At Nicaea, therefore, the Roman and Alexandrian usage with respect to Easter triumphed, and the Judaizing practice of the Quartodecimanians, who always celebrated Easter on the fourteenth of Nisan, became thenceforth a heresy. Yet that practice continued in many parts of the East, and in the time of Epiphanius, about a.d. 400, there were many, Quartodecimanians, who, as he says, were orthodox, indeed, in doctrine, but in ritual were addicted to Jewish fables, and built upon the principle: “Cursed is every one who does not keep his passover on the fourteenth of Nisan.” <footnote: Exodus 12:15> They kept the day with the Communion and with fasting till three o’clock. Yet they were divided into several parties among themselves. A peculiar offshoot of the Quartodecimanians was the rigidly ascetic Audians, who likewise held that the passover must be kept at the very same time (not after the same manner) with the Jews, on the fourteenth of Nisan, and for their authority appealed to their edition of the Apostolic Constitutions. And even in the orthodox church these measures did not secure entire uniformity. For the council of Nicaea, probably from prudence, passed by the question of the Roman and Alexandrian computation of Easter. At least the Acts contain no reference to it. At all events this difference remained: that Rome, afterward as before, fixed the vernal equinox, the terminus a quo of the Easter full moon, on the 18th of March, while Alexandria placed it correctly on the 21st. It thus occurred, that the Latins, the very year after the Nicene council, and again in the years 330, 333, 340, 341, 343, varied from the Alexandrians in the time of keeping Easter. On this account the council of Sardica, as we learn from the recently discovered Paschal Epistles of Athanasius, took the Easter question again in hand, and brought about, by mutual concessions, a compromise for the ensuing fifty years, but without permanent result. In 387 the difference of the Egyptian and the Roman Easter amounted to fully five weeks. Later attempts also to adjust the matter were in vain, until the monk Dionysius Exiguus, the author of our Christian calendar, succeeded in harmonizing the computation of Easter on the basis of the true Alexandrian reckoning; except that the Gallican and British Christians adhered still longer to the old custom, and thus fell into conflict with the Anglo-Saxon. The introduction of the improved Gregorian calendar in the Western church in 1582 again produced discrepancy; the Eastern and Russian church adhered to the Julian calendar, and is consequently now about twelve days behind us. According to the Gregorian calendar, which does not divide the months with astronomical exactness, it sometimes happens that the Paschal full moon is put a couple of hours too early, and the Christian Easter, as was the case in 1825, coincides with the Jewish Passover, against the express order of the council of Nicaea."
Theodoret's Ecclesiastical History 1.9 records The Epistle of the Emperor Constantine, concerning the matters transacted at the Council, addressed to those Bishops who were not present: "It was, in the first place, declared improper to follow the custom of the Jews in the celebration of this holy festival, because, their hands having been stained with crime, the minds of these wretched men are necessarily blinded. ... Let us, then, have nothing in common with the Jews, who are our adversaries. ... avoiding all contact with that evil way. ... who, after having compassed the death of the Lord, being out of their minds, are guided not by sound reason, but by an unrestrained passion, wherever their innate madness carries them. ... a people so utterly depraved. ... Therefore, this irregularity must be corrected, in order that we may no more have any thing in common with those parricides and the murderers of our Lord. ... no single point in common with the perjury of the Jews."
63.201.25.74 06:19, 18 May 2006 (UTC)