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East StratCom Task Force article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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The Criticism section is almost exclusively sourced by a few sources in Danish which are highly biased and repeat arguments propagated by Russian media almost verbatim ("no evidence for downing MH17 by Russia"). The section on fake news law in Denmark does not even believe into this article - it could be mentioned in StratCom had some input into the law, but it's article about StratCom and not freedom of speech in Denmark so it's WP:UNDUE and should be covered in detail elsewhere. In case of other critical opinions, I would suggest that more English-language sources are found and most of these sections can be summarized in one paragraph. Cloud200 ( talk) 19:27, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
In this case 'highly biased' refers to sources like: content published on the website of The Danish Parliament, Denmark's oldest news paper, The Danish Foreign Minister, the largest online portal for communication professionals, etc. More sources added. BigBoy75 ( talk) 12:10, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
"Other examples include EUvsDisinfo attributing claims to RT Arabic for merely reporting claims made by others and inclusion of an article in the EUvsDisinfo database denying that Russia is waging a disinformation campaign around COVID-19 on questionable grounds.[55]" Isn't it the same thing? If those outlets can't verify the sources before repeating their bogus claims, how does that become effective criticism of East StratCom Task Force for listing the outlets as misleading? This is also sourced to Reframing Russia that may not be reliable. I failed to see any WP:RSN archive discussing it and it's barely used in WP space. — Paleo Neonate – 01:23, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
I noticed that several of the refs are to the task force's own sites and in one case the reference states that "Material has been copied from this source. Reuse is authorised, provided the source is acknowledged." Although reuse may be legally allowed, Wikipedia should use reliable secondary sources to avoid bias. 143.244.37.181 ( talk) 06:54, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
I would like to share the materials that I found and clear up some important things about sources used in this article.
1. Jesper Larsen
Politiken
here here:
"blogger Jesper Larsen sympathizes with the Russian-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine and is critical of East StratCom. His previous research has been an important source of Marie Krarup's (DF) criticism of the EU office."
Zetland
here says:
"he [Jesper Larsen] defends Russia's activities, such as the country's annexation of Crimea and the Russian - backed separatist struggle in the Donbass region of eastern Ukraine."
Berlingske
here says:
"blogger Jesper Larsen is interviewed in pro-government Russian media. He is part of a spiritual community in Denmark, whose struggle is about much more than the Russian agenda." They also note that Jesper Larsen accuses the "entire Danish press" of manipulation, lies and distortion.
So he is not an expert, biased pro-Kremlin blogger and just blames entire press. How crazy is that? I mean it is okay to criticize, but his level of expertise is not good enough to be included here. He just hates StratCom project and nothing else. No scientific basis. Definitely not
RS.
2. ReframingRussia.com
Regarding this resource, I would simply advise you to read this article:
UK Academics Get Hefty Grant to 'Reframe Russia'.
I think the best choice is to use secondary reliable sources for Reframing Russia's analytics. And if there is no reliable secondary source, then don't use it. And definitely not to copy and paste from their site as it is done now. The section with criticism from ReframingRussia.com takes up too much space unreasonably.
3. I also think that one of the main problems with improving the article is the questionable contribution of one particular editor. Latest example is -
diff. Removing template for no reason, adding only critical information, adding unreliable deprecated sources like
Sputnik, marking edits as minor, when they are not. Take a look at editor's contribution history. Focused only on this article and reverts other editor's attempts to fix NPOV and Weight violations. I hope we do not have to deal with this case in the noticeboard.
BigBoy75, I want to remind you about this:
WP:PUSH and
WP:NEUTRAL. Should editors be worried about your behaviour as an editor? I am bringing this here because I suspect you might don't like a subject of the article and this might directly affect the process of improving the article.
Quick summary:
1. We are not using blogger Jesper Larsen without secondary RS in this article.
2. We are not using Reframing Russia without secondary RS in this article.
3. We use information from the above sources only in the form in which it is presented by reliable secondary sources, without taking directly from Jesper Larsen and ReframingRussia.com, because it gives a lot of space for
WP:RSUW and
WP:OR violation.
After all, we have
WP:PRIMARY rule.
@
Sunrise:@
Cloud200:@
PaleoNeonate: thoughts? --
Renat (
talk)
01:00, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
While I was fixing the issues, I also noticed one more thing - the editor who added information to the Criticism section, did the original research and added the same sources several times to give the impression that the text is supported by a large number of sources. In some sources, Jesper Larsen even wrote about himself in the third person.
Here, for example. This is madness. He calls himself a "researcher", and then it is added to the encyclopedia.--
Renat (
talk)
04:26, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
In the course of work on the verification of compliance with WP:V, I discovered a fact of serious violation of the rules and I am forced to ask for a topic ban on the editor BigBoy75. I guess it will take some time to prepare every evidence of his disruptive editing. And I hate to prepare it since I already wasted hours on exposing it.-- Renat ( talk) 05:45, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
When Reframing Russia at the University of Manchester accuse EUvsDisinfo of "blatant distortions" I obviously provide a source link to this accusation. A specific example of blatant distortion is EUvsDisinfo accusation against Sputnik for claiming that "Coronavirus is an attempt by the Anglo-Saxons to control China". I provide source links to RR, EUvsDisinfo and Sputnik radio/article.
It is provided for documentation and the opportunity for readers to look into if it is a "blatant distortion" or not.
The only reason to remove the Sputnik source link (but not source link to EUvsDisinfo) is DONOTLIKE-ideology as Sputnik is never used as a source for any factual assertion. I hope the ludicrously is clear. Sputnik is the primary source. EUvsDisinfo distorts the Sputnik show according to Reframing Russia. Sputnik is the source for what they did not report. Sputnik is not added as a source for anything they did in fact report. --
BigBoy75 (
talk)
14:33, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
East StratCom Task Force article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to the Balkans or Eastern Europe, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
The Criticism section is almost exclusively sourced by a few sources in Danish which are highly biased and repeat arguments propagated by Russian media almost verbatim ("no evidence for downing MH17 by Russia"). The section on fake news law in Denmark does not even believe into this article - it could be mentioned in StratCom had some input into the law, but it's article about StratCom and not freedom of speech in Denmark so it's WP:UNDUE and should be covered in detail elsewhere. In case of other critical opinions, I would suggest that more English-language sources are found and most of these sections can be summarized in one paragraph. Cloud200 ( talk) 19:27, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
In this case 'highly biased' refers to sources like: content published on the website of The Danish Parliament, Denmark's oldest news paper, The Danish Foreign Minister, the largest online portal for communication professionals, etc. More sources added. BigBoy75 ( talk) 12:10, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
"Other examples include EUvsDisinfo attributing claims to RT Arabic for merely reporting claims made by others and inclusion of an article in the EUvsDisinfo database denying that Russia is waging a disinformation campaign around COVID-19 on questionable grounds.[55]" Isn't it the same thing? If those outlets can't verify the sources before repeating their bogus claims, how does that become effective criticism of East StratCom Task Force for listing the outlets as misleading? This is also sourced to Reframing Russia that may not be reliable. I failed to see any WP:RSN archive discussing it and it's barely used in WP space. — Paleo Neonate – 01:23, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
I noticed that several of the refs are to the task force's own sites and in one case the reference states that "Material has been copied from this source. Reuse is authorised, provided the source is acknowledged." Although reuse may be legally allowed, Wikipedia should use reliable secondary sources to avoid bias. 143.244.37.181 ( talk) 06:54, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
I would like to share the materials that I found and clear up some important things about sources used in this article.
1. Jesper Larsen
Politiken
here here:
"blogger Jesper Larsen sympathizes with the Russian-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine and is critical of East StratCom. His previous research has been an important source of Marie Krarup's (DF) criticism of the EU office."
Zetland
here says:
"he [Jesper Larsen] defends Russia's activities, such as the country's annexation of Crimea and the Russian - backed separatist struggle in the Donbass region of eastern Ukraine."
Berlingske
here says:
"blogger Jesper Larsen is interviewed in pro-government Russian media. He is part of a spiritual community in Denmark, whose struggle is about much more than the Russian agenda." They also note that Jesper Larsen accuses the "entire Danish press" of manipulation, lies and distortion.
So he is not an expert, biased pro-Kremlin blogger and just blames entire press. How crazy is that? I mean it is okay to criticize, but his level of expertise is not good enough to be included here. He just hates StratCom project and nothing else. No scientific basis. Definitely not
RS.
2. ReframingRussia.com
Regarding this resource, I would simply advise you to read this article:
UK Academics Get Hefty Grant to 'Reframe Russia'.
I think the best choice is to use secondary reliable sources for Reframing Russia's analytics. And if there is no reliable secondary source, then don't use it. And definitely not to copy and paste from their site as it is done now. The section with criticism from ReframingRussia.com takes up too much space unreasonably.
3. I also think that one of the main problems with improving the article is the questionable contribution of one particular editor. Latest example is -
diff. Removing template for no reason, adding only critical information, adding unreliable deprecated sources like
Sputnik, marking edits as minor, when they are not. Take a look at editor's contribution history. Focused only on this article and reverts other editor's attempts to fix NPOV and Weight violations. I hope we do not have to deal with this case in the noticeboard.
BigBoy75, I want to remind you about this:
WP:PUSH and
WP:NEUTRAL. Should editors be worried about your behaviour as an editor? I am bringing this here because I suspect you might don't like a subject of the article and this might directly affect the process of improving the article.
Quick summary:
1. We are not using blogger Jesper Larsen without secondary RS in this article.
2. We are not using Reframing Russia without secondary RS in this article.
3. We use information from the above sources only in the form in which it is presented by reliable secondary sources, without taking directly from Jesper Larsen and ReframingRussia.com, because it gives a lot of space for
WP:RSUW and
WP:OR violation.
After all, we have
WP:PRIMARY rule.
@
Sunrise:@
Cloud200:@
PaleoNeonate: thoughts? --
Renat (
talk)
01:00, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
While I was fixing the issues, I also noticed one more thing - the editor who added information to the Criticism section, did the original research and added the same sources several times to give the impression that the text is supported by a large number of sources. In some sources, Jesper Larsen even wrote about himself in the third person.
Here, for example. This is madness. He calls himself a "researcher", and then it is added to the encyclopedia.--
Renat (
talk)
04:26, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
In the course of work on the verification of compliance with WP:V, I discovered a fact of serious violation of the rules and I am forced to ask for a topic ban on the editor BigBoy75. I guess it will take some time to prepare every evidence of his disruptive editing. And I hate to prepare it since I already wasted hours on exposing it.-- Renat ( talk) 05:45, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
When Reframing Russia at the University of Manchester accuse EUvsDisinfo of "blatant distortions" I obviously provide a source link to this accusation. A specific example of blatant distortion is EUvsDisinfo accusation against Sputnik for claiming that "Coronavirus is an attempt by the Anglo-Saxons to control China". I provide source links to RR, EUvsDisinfo and Sputnik radio/article.
It is provided for documentation and the opportunity for readers to look into if it is a "blatant distortion" or not.
The only reason to remove the Sputnik source link (but not source link to EUvsDisinfo) is DONOTLIKE-ideology as Sputnik is never used as a source for any factual assertion. I hope the ludicrously is clear. Sputnik is the primary source. EUvsDisinfo distorts the Sputnik show according to Reframing Russia. Sputnik is the source for what they did not report. Sputnik is not added as a source for anything they did in fact report. --
BigBoy75 (
talk)
14:33, 14 December 2020 (UTC)