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New edit for Seven Years war/French/Opium implication (Check history) It seems like the paragraph got shuffled around in an edit and no one noted it. I'd request that one of the more official maintainers fix my rough edit or maybe move thigns around more appropriately 68.68.224.129 00:33, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
David -- just so you know -- I've got a textbook in front of me that calls the British East India the East India company ...aaargh!!! I like it with British myself.... JHK
Absolutely so, JHK - it was the plain EIC to Britons just as the Dutch called theirs the United East India Company; I think the French may just have called theirs the "Company of the Indies" - anyway, I think it's legitimate to distinguish each by the country whence and (within commercially justifiable bounds) for which it operated. User:David Parker
true that, I'm writing a report on the Company and Was thoroughly confused about diffrent companies' origins, thanks
-Jose Gonzales
Darn fine article. I liked the graphics of the flag too.
I'm going through doing some copyediting, and I've put in some provisional headings. I'm sure they can be improved, but I hope they're better than nothing. Markalexander100 11:56, 4 May 2004 (UTC)
A good article, and very promising. But I have some questions:
Markalexander100 03:13, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
I have done extensive research on the East India Company, and I am very positive that it was not called "John's Company". I tried changing it, but it got changed back. Can someone show me proof on this name?
Still one question: if the company was wound up as a trading enterprise after 1813, what were the commercial operations it was carrying out between 1858 and 1874? Markalexander100 05:54, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
How commonly was it known as "John Company"? Should this really be in the first line of the article? I have also not heard this name before. Would it be accurate to say that this is a rather archaic nickname? john
There are several books about the Company which use John Company in the title. I hadn't heard of it before either (though in my case that really doesn't mean much), but it does seem to be fairly common. Here's a quickly drawn assortment of books and links:
Interestingly, there may be more to it than just an alternate name-- this suggests that JC and BEIC were separate companies that merged in the early 1700s.
I left of several others which only mentioned the name to introduce somewhat tangential topics. It's even in Thomas Pynchon's Mason & Dixon. older≠ wiser 02:34, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
The impression I get from my reading is that John Company was a synonym/metonym for the EIC rather than a separate entity.
Any idea how the alternate name arose? Jackiespeel ( talk) 17:29, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Just a thought: there is no Wikipedia entry for Nabob, and no mention of the term here. Wetman 04:25, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
Ok, ok, you made your point.
Apparently not: http://www.worlds-largest-diamonds.com/
— Matt 08:07, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
Malayan Peninsula and Tin mining
If India was the jewel of the empire, then the Malayan Peninsula (now West Malaysia) was the empire's treasury. Tin mining and rubber contributed immensely to the British Empire so much so that the British virtually denuded the peninsula of tin. They also brought in the Chinese and Indians who forever changed the political landscape of Malaya. Can somebody do some research on this and dig up, pardon the pun, some statistics on how much the British profitted.
Jardin Matheson
I heard that British East India Company eventually became the Jardin Matheson Group of today. If anyone knows that transition, would you please add this to the article? Thanks
The article seems to imply that the Regulating Act of 1773 was a consequence of the American Revolution, which only started in 1775, although the Boston Tea Party did happen in 1773 in responce to the Tea Act. It is unclear to me what the right emphasis should be in rewriting the sections Financial troubles and Regulating Act of 1773, maybe a Historian can help with this? Miguel 03:28, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)
---
Thanks to User:Isomorphic for reverting the page.
I've rm'd the following:
The games of badminton, polo, squash and snooker were invented by officers of the Company during their rule.
Google seems fairly sure that squash was invented at Harrow; I haven't checked the others, but if someone wants to check and re-add any that are true, I'd much rather see them incorporated in the text than in a "trivia" section (which is by definition irrelevant). Markalexander100 01:36, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)
There seems to be a comment of "this is so fucking dumb" after the first paragraph, can this be removed
In History / Expansion, we have
By 1647, the Company had 23 factories and 90 employees in India.
That's 4 employees per factory. Before the age of robotics. Are we sure of these numbers?-- StanZegel 06:45, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
In the English language of the time, the word factories meant trading posts run by factors. The places where things were made are manufactories. Dabbler 09:02, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
In The End, we have
... it continued to maintain a trading office in London as of 2004. ... the Company was dissolved on January 1, 1874.
Keeping staff on the payroll 130 years after the need for them has ended seems a bit excessive, even in tradition-bound England. And when the company is actually out of business, one wonders who is paying the current expenses, and why. I suspect the statement above about 2004 needs verification. Is it undetected vandalism? -- StanZegel 16:10, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Googling shows that there IS a company called The East India Company in London (Lincolns Inn Fields) but whether this is in any way connected to the original East India Company I cannot tell. It sells tea in decorative caddies. Dabbler 09:59, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Yale founded by a director? Anything on connections with yankee traders, early banks (eg Little&Brown), effects on American history ? The Bengal Famine said to have killed 15M. wblakesx Wblakesx
Hi, I am working to encourage implementation of the goals of the Wikipedia:Verifiability policy. Part of that is to make sure articles cite their sources. This is particularly important for featured articles, since they are a prominent part of Wikipedia. The Fact and Reference Check Project has more information. Thank you, and please leave me a message when you have added a few references to the article. - Taxman 20:00, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)
It is a big change from British to English, but it is not the British East India Company. Britain , or Great Britain, refers to the British Empire, which the English East India Company had a large part in forming. This is not my interpretation, but how the company is referred to in the community that writes about it and pre-modern economic history.
see: Kenneth Pomeranz. 200. The Great Divergence. Chaudhuri, K. N. Trading world of Asia and the English East India Company, 1660-1760 K. N. Chaudhuri. Chaudhuri, K. N. English East India Company; the study of an early joint-stock company, 1600-1640 [by] K. N. Chaudhuri. Holden Furber. Rival Empires of Trade Furber Holden. 1997. Private fortunes and company profits in the India trade in the 18th century.
Other sources:
Basset, D. K. 1960. The trade of the English East India Company in the Far East, 1623-1684. Keay, John. The honourable company : a history of the English East India Company / John Keay. Varma, Birendra. English East India Company and the Afghans, 1757-1800. R.J. Barendse. The Arabian Seas, 1640-1700
This is a very partial list.
I should also mention its a very well done page. Beae33 19:32, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
You cannot call it the English East India Company either, since after James I succeeded Elizabeth I the country became "The United Kingdom (of England and Scotland)". "(Honourable) East India Company" would be more appropriate.
Why does this article call it "Honourable" when all other articles in Wikipidea that mentions this company calls it "British"? Was it because while the British Empire outlawed opium trading in contemporary Britain, it still brought money to the Empire with such a trade? Or was it because it had the power to trigger two wars against a nation that opposed itself to opium importation? Are these the reasons why this article calls it "Honourable"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.159.86.164 ( talk) 14:42, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
It should remain as the British East India Company because that was its name to begin with. Open any history book like A History of the English Speaking Peoples and you would find that it was named the British East India Company. It also goes by that name in school and collage text books. To call it English or Honorable would be rewriting history based on a few peoples views. Wikipedia is about accurate and neutral information. - Mr.NorCal55 ( talk) 21:03, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
A related topic, spice trade, is currently nominated on WP:IDRIVE. Support or comment on the nomination there if you are interested.-- Fenice 09:36, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
The Company (or rather, the company that continued operating under its name) has supposedly been redesigning its web site for six years. Does anyone know its status? Gazpacho 07:38, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Regarding the company that is operating under the East India name: I can't find anything in the UK trade mark records about a Tony Wild or a David Hutton. The name listed as registrant for all of the various trade marks owned by the East India Company is Langner Parry. A complete listing of the trade marks owned by the East India Company can be found here. -- 192.251.125.85 09:02, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Your intro states the company was formed with the intention of trading in India. The main body of the article states (correctly) that it was formed with the intention of trading in the East Indies, and only turned to India after being thrown out of the Indies by the Dutch. Worth clarifying? PiCo 03:17, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
The last paragraph of the introduction worries me, inasmuch as it is a quote, and may be POV, I quote it here: "As Adam Smith wrote, "The difference between the genius of the British constitution which protects and governs North America, and that of the mercantile company which oppresses and domineers in the East Indies, cannot perhaps be better illustrated than by the different state of those countries."" 70.48.13.20 20:48, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Re: "The flag probably inspired the Stars and Stripes (as argued by Sir Charles Fawcett in 1937)." Richard Buckminster Fuller's also argued this fact in his paper "Critical Path", he goes furter to say that as most of the boats involved in the boston tea party belonged to the east india company, this would have been that flag that flew over heads of the revolutionaries.
maybe the RB Fuller & "Critical Path" reference can be mentioned, but i will leave that to ye.
In regards to the flag: The use of the earlier St. George's Cross (English Flag) version of the EIC flag at the top of the page refers to the English EIC, before the Great Britain existed. It seems to me that for the British east india company, a version such as Image:Grand union flag large v2.png should be used, including the Union Jack in the corner, instead of the Enlgish flag. Canaen 00:10, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
http://www.kimber.org/flag/Gallery/Documents/Flags%20at%20Sea/index.htm
Dbnull 16:34, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
The section on the flags is nice, but in its current location it obscures the argument. Perhaps it could be moved closer to the end of the article? Eric 13:16, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Whoever compiled the bulk of this article seems to be confused as to whether the Honourable East India Company is English, or British. Certainly well into the 1700s it is regarded by most British historians as being uniquely English. When did it receive a 'British' charter? Christchurch 12:46, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
[ [I am probably as much a patriot as the next person but I do think the title at the top of the article page should read Honourable East India Company and not British, as the HEIC is what it actually was and was known as throughout its existance. Christchurch 11:12, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
There is still an HEIC Archive Office in London. If you look, for instance, in Burke's Peerage going back to the beginning of the 19th century, at the armies of men from these old families who served with the company, you will see that against all of them are the initials HEIC or "HEIC's service". Several books have been published over the years about "The Honourable Company". Do you think this has been plucked from thin air? I, for instance, have never heard of the "John Company". Is this a working-class description rather than the official title the company wished to be known by? What next! It is also bizarre to suggest that just because an English company has Welsh, Scots or Irish working within it, that it somehow assumes a British/United Kingdom status. It does not. It's an English enterprise. It was never known as the British East India Co, so the title on this article is, very simply, wrong. Christchurch 19:08, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
If you re-read this section of the Talk page the argument is clear enough. Wikipedia claims it is an encyclopaedia and if that is the case its rather important to get at least the title right! Christchurch 18:57, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
It should remain as the British East India Company because that was its name to begin with. Open any history book like A History of the English Speaking Peoples and you would find that it was named the British East India Company. It also goes by that name in school and collage text books. To call it English or Honorable would be rewriting history based on a few peoples views. Wikipedia is about accurate and neutral information. - Mr.NorCal55 ( talk) 04:00, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
What was Charles James Fox's failed East India Bill of 1783? Cutler 09:35, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
The Joint stock article states the Dutch East Indies Company was the first (in 1602). How does this relate to the claim in this article that it was founded in 1600. Was the BEIC originally different or was the DEIC not the first, and is the jounts stock article in error?? Arnoutf 16:57, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
The article states: "However, the demands of Company officers on the treasury of Bengal contributed tragically to the province's incapacity in the face of a famine which killed millions in 1770-1773."
There is a much more malign interpretation of the death of 10 million people on this website:
http://mathaba.net/news/?x=67636
In 1800 the population of England was about one million. If ten million really died in Bengal, and the East India company were really liable, then there is a huge scandal. Ogg 12:16, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
You guys are the same old Brits! EIC taxed 80% of the food grains during famine and people died out of starvation. You ask the world to what extent EIC is to blame? Inhuman laughable stocks nothing more. 72.137.199.238 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 02:02, 9 November 2008 (UTC).
Pasting from another wikipedia article (look for Bengal Famine) here since it's relevant:
"Fault for the famine is now often ascribed to the British East India Company policies in Bengal. As a trading body, its first remit was to maximise its profits and with taxation rights the profits to be obtained from Bengal came from land tax as well as trade tariffs. As lands came under company control, the land tax was typically raised by 3 to 4 times what it had been – from 10-15% up to 50% of the value of the agricultural produce. In the first years of the rule of the British East India Company, the total land tax income was doubled and most of this revenue flowed out of the country. As the famine approached its height, in April of 1770, the Company announced that land tax for the following year was to be increased by 10%. The company is also criticised for forbidding the "hoarding" of rice. This prevented traders and dealers from laying in reserves that in other times would have tided the population over lean periods.]]By the time of the famine, monopolies in grain trading had been established by the Company and its agents. The Company had no plan for dealing with the grain shortage, and actions were only taken insofar as they affected the mercantile and trading classes. Land revenue decreased by 14% during the affected year, but recovered rapidly (Kumkum Chatterjee). According to McLane, the first governor-general of British India, Warren Hastings, acknowledged "violent" tax collecting after 1771: revenues earned by the Company were higher in 1771 than in 1768 [1]. Globally, the profit of the Company increased from 15 million rupees in 1765 up to 30 million rupees in 1777.
So the question is not really what would have happened had the French ruled, but why this did really did not result either in a serious revolt or by the closure of the EIC by the monarchy. As for the latter, perhaps the later Bengal famines and the response of various British leaders including Churchill is a pointer to the nature of the Raj (not very different from the EIC). These really are bigger indicators of the devastating impact the successive British leaderships had on the Indian economy and society than relatively smaller incidents like the Jallianwala Bagh massacre of 1919.
It seems to me that the article exaggerates the reduction in the French threat after Plassey; for example in:
By 1760, the French were driven out of India, with the exception of a few trading posts on the coast, such as Pondicherry.
and
By the Treaty of Paris (1763), the French were forced to maintain their trade posts only in small enclaves in Pondicherry, Mahe, Karikal, Yanam, and Chandernagar without any military presence. Although these small outposts remained French possessions for the next two hundred years, French ambitions on Indian territories were effectively laid to rest, thus eliminating a major source of economic competition for the Company. In contrast, the Company, fresh from a colossal victory, and with the backing of a disciplined and experienced army, was able to assert its interests in the Carnatic from its base at Madras and in Bengal from Calcutta, without facing any further obstacles from other colonial powers.
But in 1795 William Kirkpatrick, the British resident at Hyderabad, wrote: "[General Michel Raymond] is now at the head of a disciplined force of at least 10,000 infantry, with a well-equipped train of artillery, pretty well-officered with Europeans who are of his own nation and principles."(Dalrymple 2003: p100)
As for French ambitions being laid to rest, there was considerable fear that Napoleon was going to attack India after his conquest of Egypt. In fact, it could be argued that the expansion of British power in India was a deliberate power game in competition with the French. The French were allies of Mysore in the Anglo-Mysore Wars and supported Tipu Sultan at the Battle of Seringapatam in 1799. qp10qp 06:02, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
This was an English company, incorporated in England, known as the Honourable East India Company, and when people served with them they usually have the initials HEICS after their name. It was never a British company. This title is wrong. David Lauder 20:42, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
<comic book guy voice>:
In the eighteenth century, opium was highly sought after by the Chinese , and so in 1773, the Company bla bla bla
the bias and POV on this article are only matched by the British Empire one. How can it be possible to let it be nominated to "featured article" or "best wikipedia article" ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.18.144.64 ( talk)
Actually, the British East India Company made a fortune selling Opium in China. The British gov't even made deals with them to allow sales of opium as long as they didn't sell in England. Granted China wasn't the only place they sold opium but it sure was the biggest customer. So don't whine about it just because you think it's racially insensitive. It is accurate.
-Wikiman2009
And that is why the British had to fight wars to ensure they could continue selling opium in China. Yeah right, that makes a lot of sense.
Umm, actually, the opium wars stemmed from a seperate issue. And yes opium was sought after by the Chinese. It is undenyable that a significant part of the population was hooked on the stuff. Check your facts, and sign your posts. Theheadhunter 10:17, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
-G —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.32.141.8 ( talk) 04:21, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
Why is it written that the British company is "preceeded only from" the Dutch one? (first paragraph)and then the date of foundation of the Dutch company is after the foundation of the British one? Somebody more expert could help, because I don't have references on the subject. Antis 12:17, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone have a GFDL picture or scan of the EIC logo (the letters E, I, and C around a chevron inside a shield)?
Rimi talk 09:05, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Was that a logo used by the real East India Co. or was it just invented for the Pirates of the Caribbean movies? If it was only used by the movies I don't think it should be added to this article. Occasional Reader 20:34, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Do you mean this EICo symbol. I think it is the one they used in Pirates of the Carribean. It is actually the symbol for the East India Trading Company. However, I do not know what the diffrence between East India Company and East India Trading Company is, if there is a diffrence. -- Drew2794 ( talk) 20:25, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
I removed the following comment from the text of this article. Trey56 08:22, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
There is no mention of slave trade and piracy activities of the EIC and its employees in the article . Has this been edited out or can one not find the references to it? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_East_India_Company
In response: If someone actually wrote "There is no mention of slave trade and piracy activities of the EIC and its employees in the article . Has this been edited out or can one not find the references to it?" in the article itself, of course you should have taken it out, but you should not have removed any reference to slavery. And if that was in the discussion, you were past wrong to remove it. That was apparently the only reference in the entire article to the role that the EIC played in the so-called "triangle trade," and now there's nothing indicating that the EIC ever had anything to do with slavery. As embarrassing as it may seem now, it's not helping anyone who uses Wikipedia as reference material to pretend that what happened didn't happen. That needs to be corrected. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marguerite de Navarre ( talk • contribs) 03:17, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
Would anyone (Xdamr?) actually care to defend the ridiculous, undiscussed move of this article to Honourable East India Company, which clearly violates all relevant naming policies? I've moved it back. john k 14:31, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I apologise for not taking part in this conversation when it was active, but now that I have noticed it, I must say that I disagree with this move. Why should this be under its full formal title when the Dutch, Danish, French, and Swedish East India Companies are all listed simply by their national adjective? If this is the "Honourable East India Company" (and I do agree with all those who said that Honourable is not essential to the name), then the Dutch EIC should be listed as "United East India Company" or "United East Indian Company" or "Vereenigde Oostindische Compagnie". My personal vote is to revert it back to British East India Company or to English East India Company, in order to match the naming convention the other EICs observe. (Personally, I prefer English over British, because every text I've ever read on the subject has talked about "the English" and not "the British".) LordAmeth 22:06, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
I suggest the entire section be removed, per WP:TRIV and based on guidance in Wikipedia:"In popular culture" articles.
The Star Wars section of the popular culture sections lacks sources and appears to be original research. Additional it doesn't seem notable to the EIC. (If sources could be cited it might be reasonable to see it included in one of the Star Wars articles).
And for the Pirates of the Caribean, the EIC may be important to the PotC movies, but the PotC movies don't seem important to the EIC. Occasional Reader 20:43, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
"established editor" lordy lord... as time goes along, Wikipedia is being slowly polluted with the hubris of armchair academics, its funny to watch but a little sad. The above argument is idiotic. PotC is populist crap, no doubting that, however its populist crap that has introduced the EIC to millions upon millions of human beings that otherwise wouldn't know or care that the EIC existed. PotC is the very definition of popular culture and that's why wikipedia has a section for popular culture after all isn't it? I'll put it back for you...no need to trouble yourself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.214.37.23 ( talk) 10:53, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
Did the Company maintain its own military forces or were forces from the standing military just allocated to their command or were they all "soldiers of fortune"? Could the military forces of the Company be considered seperate from the standard army, navy, etc? Did they have their own uniforms?-- TPrice180 17:10, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Late answer I know but the HEIC did indeed have its own private army, I came to this site hoping to find more info but was surprised to find little. I don't have sufficient knowledge to add an article on the main page but I do know that they wore similar uniforms to the regular army (red coats etc) and that they were separate from the regular military. They did fight alongside the regular army in India and came under the command of Sir Arthur Wellesley for a time. Their officers did not purchase their commissions like the regular army of the 18th/19th Century so they did not advance up the ranks quickly like their regular counterparts. Promotion for the officers was based on seniority only, effectively 'dead mans shoes'.Beyond this I have no more information. 82.34.55.108 mspice2215 ( talk) 22:16, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
I have no idea about the details here, but someone told me that "Falu Koppargruva" in Sweden was sold in "stocks" from the 1300s until about ten years ago when they closed down. If so, would that not be the first? DanielDemaret 12:51, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
I think that the introduction should be revised also- if you go to the "joint stock" page linked in the introduction, it mentions other earlier joint stock issues (hundreds of years before the HEIC's inception. The statement that the HEIC is the first joint stock company seems to be incorrect. Bradby 18:00, 9 September 2007 (UTC)Bradby
I have undone the move to British East India Company for the various reasons given before by Xdamr, that HEIC was its official name, often called 'The Honourable Company'. There was no attempt to get consensus for such an obviously contentious move so, I undid it and await some attempt to gain a consensus for a move. Narson ( talk) 22:10, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Quote:
"By 1689, the Company was arguably a "nation" in the Indian mainland, independently administering the vast presidencies of Bengal, Madras and Bombay and possessing a formidable and intimidating military strength."
Firstly, the Company didn't even establish themselves in Bengal until 1690! They couldn't trade freely there until 1716. In 1689 the total size of Company administered areas in India came to a few square miles, and it would remain so until the 1750's! - indeed, the rest of the article spells this out. By 1689 they only had control of the relatively small settlements of Bombay, Madras and Surrat - which were very small places in the 17th century, and even then, they had only established themselves in Bombay some two decades before. The Company, at that time, had a few hundred men at arms in India - was this "formidable and intimidating military strength"?
I have deleted the lines for the reasons stated. It appears that the person that included those lines, knows nothing about Indian history - let alone the East India Company.
TB —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.216.20.70 ( talk) 22:10, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
The English people presence in India for 250 plus years was solely driven by spirit of expoliting India economically to make their parent country England richer and prosperous and in turn generate income for hundred & thousand of British people who were part of the British rule and corrupt administration in India. They hated and racially discriminated Indian people because they found them primitive and darker in skin colour due to which they taxed them even at the point of starvation and allowed them to die in millions without any relief during floods and famines. Some development or reforms they brought about during their corrupt and murderous rule can't be cited to justify or glorify their endeavour to make India bankrupt, illiterate, partitioned on communal designs, poverty ridden and without little infrastructure at the point of their exit in 1947. Anyone who had raised voice against their corrupt & murderous rule was either jailed or killed with the help of corrupt judiciary.
Their presence was not driven by India building mission, if that was the case than why so much difference in the socio-economic conditions of India and Britain at the time of Independence. And for that matter even if they would had stayed in India after 1947 they would had created a underclass based on race & skin colour like the Aparthied regime of South Africa which had denied black Africans the basic human rights or the "Stolen Generation" in Australia where descendant's of British people even now treats it's indigenous black people as racial untouchables, after two centuries of discrimination, murder and exploitation. Britishers could not guarantee racial equality, equal opportunity and economic prosperity for million of Indians and used them as commodities for thier own benefit. In short their objective was met as they grew richer India became poorer. One of the best thing happened in the history of India was the demise of East India company and subsequently the Britsh rule in 1947.
"Where is the Truth -The article is full of lies we want to read the Neutral Point of view not some British crap!"--Himhifi 12:04, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Himhifi. The HEIC has a long history of exploitation in India. This article is written with a complete disregard for that facet of the company. Even the basic concept of a "company" conquering a nation is exploitative. Why is there no criticism of its actions? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
68.105.153.73 (
talk)
17:21, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to refer you to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enron#Accounting_scandal_of_2001 The Enron page is about the Company, Enron, but also includes criticism and controversy within the same page, as it is historically relevant. Why does this exclude the Honourable East India Company? There are criticisms; why are they not listend in this page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.105.153.73 ( talk) 04:11, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
"Where is the Truth -The article is full of lies we want to read the Neutral Point of view not some British crap!"
"Why is there no criticism of its actions?"
"Why does this exclude the Honourable East India Company? There are criticisms; why are they not listend in this page?"
The above are criticisms made in previous contributions here. The answer: because nobody has (yet) written the critical information and related references. Wikipedia is written by anyone who wants to, not by an editorial authority. People have written what they knew about, from their viewpoint; if information is needed to correct the impression given, then it needs to be added, with supporting references. Any unsupported information, whichever way it's biased, is likely to be removed.
Pol098 (
talk)
19:11, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Surprisingly little mention made of this private army, I had hoped to find some. Any one out there with enough knowledge to add something? mspice2215 82.34.55.108 ( talk) 20:10, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
On the one hand, the the article states that the company was dissolved in 1874; on the other the article, corroborated by a recent newspaper article, documents the original company being bought in 2005 by an Indian billionaire. Maybe somebody can fill in the gap? Pol098 ( talk) 19:00, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
ITS NOT CORRECT TO LEAVE AWAY THE FACTS ABOUT THE COMPANY SUCH AS:
-Battle of Plassey -Bengal famine of 1770 -Jallianwala Bagh massacre -british contrribution to poverty in india. -that the british rule costed ca. 70 million indian lives.
and a lote more...
THE CURRENT VERSION IS A BAISED ONE, AND I THIS IT SHOULD BE REMOVED WHEN FAILS TO SHOW THE TRUTH: I HOPE THERE ARE MORE OUT THERE WHO THINK AS I DO:
Bodhisattva2008 —Preceding comment was added at 18:53, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
There is a recent and very good hour-long lecture giving an overview of the company - 'The Imperious Company: The East India Company and the Modern Multinational', by the historian, Nick Robbins: http://www.gresham.ac.uk/event.asp?PageId=45&EventId=756 I think that this would be a very nice link to give a narrative overview of the company (especially as it has MP3, MP4 and text versions available of the lecture to download for free). (I don't put this up directly, as there is a potential issue of conflict-of-interest as I am linked to Gresham College, but I will gladly put it up if people agree to the post.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jamesfranklingresham ( talk • contribs) 15:21, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Could the main of authors of this article please detail the reasons for choosing the "Honourable East India Company" for the page name? Sure, it was a formal name, but it is one that is today mostly used as a literary, sardonic, or satirical flourish, for example, as in the title of John Keay's book, The Honourable Company: A History of the English East India Company. Serious secondary sources (by an overwhelming margin) don't call it that; they simply call it the East India Company, or when disambiguation is a must, either the English East India Company or the British East India Company. See below.
Finally among all encyclopedias there are:
My recommendation is that this page be moved to "East India Company", with a "for other uses: see East India Company (disambiguation) link at the top; i.e. the current East India Company page would then be moved to East India Company (disambiguation). That would be the page name most in keeping with both scholarly and encyclopedic precedent. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 23:41, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
The ideal name is "East India Company". However, there is already a disamb page with that name and we'd have to usurp that page with a disamb redirect in the first line. Which, I worry, will upset the other East India Company editors! Should we take this proposal to the talk page of "East India Company" first? -- Regents Park ( count the magpies) 15:35, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
The article presently opens:
The Honourable East India Company (HEIC), most commonly referred to as the East India Trading Company...
I have never heard it referred to by the latter name, let alone "most commonly referred to". The only instance when I have heard this usage is for the fictionalised company in the Pirates of the Caribbean series of films. I citation-tagged this on 24 July 2008 but the tag was removed by an anonymous user on 15 August. I'm removing the phrase "most commonly referred to as the EITC" from the opening paragraph. Opera hat ( talk) 10:51, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
Robert Blackborne, who worked at the Admiralty, is described later in Samuel Pepys' diaries as Secretary of the East India Company. Does anyone know if this is correct? What was Blackborne's relationship to the East India Company? [10] Also wondering if he is connected to the London merchant Abraham Blackborne (I suspect he is, as the Blackborne family were later recipients of a large sum of money left to them by Will Hewer, Pepys' longtime friend and former servant). Thank you much for any info. Regards, MarmadukePercy ( talk) 06:18, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
From Justice Upon Petition: The House of Lords and the Reformation of Justice, 1621-1675 by James S. Hart. Routledge, 1991. ISBN 0049422022. "In an attempt to head off that judgement, the East India Company petitioned the House of Commons in mid-April 1668 ... In the meantime, the Lords had reached a final decision. On 29 April they awarded Skinner £5,000 in damages against the Company ... The Lords considered the petition 'scandalous' in both tone and content ... The house immediately ordered the author of the petition, Robert Blackborne, the company secretary, as well as a number of the company's officers to appear and explain themselves. As a result, Blackborne, Sir Samuel Barnardiston, Sir Andrew Riccard, Roland Wynne and Christopher Boone were all committed to the custody of Black Rod in lieu of £2,000 bail. (p. 196)"
Fowler&fowler «Talk» 13:49, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
This section degrades into an anti-British diatribe, attributing several atrocities to the EIC, but without citing any sources. It needs a cleanup or removal. Also, the discussion on this talk page should be archived as it is becoming unwieldy. Calydon ( talk) 21:01, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
I cannot believe that relevant verbiage has been deleted. If it does not belong here, then post it under the right section. I don't see the following, that used to be part of this article anywhere. It is not "anti British diatribe" Given the atrocities the british committed in India, it is hard to overstate/exaggerate the negative impact they have had on the economy. This is the relevant section:
"The British rule ruined India economically.GDP estimates An estimate by Angus Maddison, formerly of Groningen University, reveals that India's share of the world income went from 24.4% in 1700, comparable to Europe's share of 23.3%, to a low of 3.8% in 1952" Clearly quotes and sources have been provided. I am adding it back into the main article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.96.39.35 ( talk) 07:29, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
2009 (UTC)
The Pitiful and Violent Rat of a company East India Company (PVRCEIC)??? wtf? 208.58.26.153 ( talk) 00:58, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
Can we agree on this change. Vontrotta ( talk) 06:43, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Looks like there is consensus then to change this article to "East India Company" and to seek consensus to change the disambiguation page. Great! So, is someone going to take the next step? I haven't done this before and would love to see someone else take the ball and run with it.
Vontrotta (
talk)
15:26, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was Move Parsecboy ( talk) 21:13, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
We are requesting that the page name be changed to
East India Company since the latter name is used overwhelmingly for the English/British/Honourable East India Company by secondary and tertiary sources. See the
Page Name section above for recent discussion. We are also requesting that the contents of the current
East India Company page (a disambiguation page) be moved to
East India Company (disambiguation). Please discuss below
Fowler&fowler
«Talk»
10:01, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
I support the move. I'd be surprised if any of the other companies has ever been referred to as "East India Company" (in English).
81.98.251.134 (
talk)
10:26, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
IMO, this should be moved straightaway. WP is not the place to have this "Honourable" nonsense.- Bharatveer ( talk) 05:31, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
With this in mind, we might want to re-write the intro. It currently read:
The Honourable East India Company (HEIC), referred to most commonly as the East India Company, also, historically and colloquially, as John Company, or as Company Bahadur in India, was an early English joint-stock company[1] formed for trade with the Indian subcontinent and Southeast Asia.
I'd suggest something along the lies of:
The English East India Company, officially the Honourable East India Company (HEIC) from 1709, referred to most commonly as the East India Company, John Company, The Honourable Company or as Company Bahadur in India, was an early English joint-stock company[1] formed for trade with the Indian subcontinent and Southeast Asia.
Does that seem acceptable? -- Narson ~ Talk • 21:58, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
I propose the following change to your suggestion:
The East India Company, also the English East India Company, [1] and sometimes the British East India Company, [2] was an early English joint-stock company [3] formed for trade with the Indian subcontinent and Southeast Asia. The Company was granted an English Royal Charter, under the name Governor and Company of Merchants of London Trading into the East Indies, by Elizabeth I on 31 December 1600. [4] After a rival company was set up in the late 17th century, the two companies were amalgamated in 1708 under the name United Company of Merchants of England Trading to the East Indies, commonly styled the Honourable [5] East India Company, [6] and abbreviated as HEIC; [7] it was colloquially referred to as John Company, [8] and in India as Company Bahadur. [9]
I feel that "Honourable" should occur in the lead paragraph, but not in the lead sentence. This is because too many names presented all at once become confusing for a new reader; also, none of the other major tertiary sources, Britannica 2008, Britannica 1911 (which was published only a half century after the dissolution of the company), Encarta, Encyclopedia Americana, Columbia Encyclopedia, or Webster's Encyclopedia mention "Honourable" anywhere in their articles.
Fowler&fowler
«Talk»
18:47, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
New edit for Seven Years war/French/Opium implication (Check history) It seems like the paragraph got shuffled around in an edit and no one noted it. I'd request that one of the more official maintainers fix my rough edit or maybe move thigns around more appropriately 68.68.224.129 00:33, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
David -- just so you know -- I've got a textbook in front of me that calls the British East India the East India company ...aaargh!!! I like it with British myself.... JHK
Absolutely so, JHK - it was the plain EIC to Britons just as the Dutch called theirs the United East India Company; I think the French may just have called theirs the "Company of the Indies" - anyway, I think it's legitimate to distinguish each by the country whence and (within commercially justifiable bounds) for which it operated. User:David Parker
true that, I'm writing a report on the Company and Was thoroughly confused about diffrent companies' origins, thanks
-Jose Gonzales
Darn fine article. I liked the graphics of the flag too.
I'm going through doing some copyediting, and I've put in some provisional headings. I'm sure they can be improved, but I hope they're better than nothing. Markalexander100 11:56, 4 May 2004 (UTC)
A good article, and very promising. But I have some questions:
Markalexander100 03:13, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
I have done extensive research on the East India Company, and I am very positive that it was not called "John's Company". I tried changing it, but it got changed back. Can someone show me proof on this name?
Still one question: if the company was wound up as a trading enterprise after 1813, what were the commercial operations it was carrying out between 1858 and 1874? Markalexander100 05:54, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
How commonly was it known as "John Company"? Should this really be in the first line of the article? I have also not heard this name before. Would it be accurate to say that this is a rather archaic nickname? john
There are several books about the Company which use John Company in the title. I hadn't heard of it before either (though in my case that really doesn't mean much), but it does seem to be fairly common. Here's a quickly drawn assortment of books and links:
Interestingly, there may be more to it than just an alternate name-- this suggests that JC and BEIC were separate companies that merged in the early 1700s.
I left of several others which only mentioned the name to introduce somewhat tangential topics. It's even in Thomas Pynchon's Mason & Dixon. older≠ wiser 02:34, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
The impression I get from my reading is that John Company was a synonym/metonym for the EIC rather than a separate entity.
Any idea how the alternate name arose? Jackiespeel ( talk) 17:29, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Just a thought: there is no Wikipedia entry for Nabob, and no mention of the term here. Wetman 04:25, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
Ok, ok, you made your point.
Apparently not: http://www.worlds-largest-diamonds.com/
— Matt 08:07, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
Malayan Peninsula and Tin mining
If India was the jewel of the empire, then the Malayan Peninsula (now West Malaysia) was the empire's treasury. Tin mining and rubber contributed immensely to the British Empire so much so that the British virtually denuded the peninsula of tin. They also brought in the Chinese and Indians who forever changed the political landscape of Malaya. Can somebody do some research on this and dig up, pardon the pun, some statistics on how much the British profitted.
Jardin Matheson
I heard that British East India Company eventually became the Jardin Matheson Group of today. If anyone knows that transition, would you please add this to the article? Thanks
The article seems to imply that the Regulating Act of 1773 was a consequence of the American Revolution, which only started in 1775, although the Boston Tea Party did happen in 1773 in responce to the Tea Act. It is unclear to me what the right emphasis should be in rewriting the sections Financial troubles and Regulating Act of 1773, maybe a Historian can help with this? Miguel 03:28, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)
---
Thanks to User:Isomorphic for reverting the page.
I've rm'd the following:
The games of badminton, polo, squash and snooker were invented by officers of the Company during their rule.
Google seems fairly sure that squash was invented at Harrow; I haven't checked the others, but if someone wants to check and re-add any that are true, I'd much rather see them incorporated in the text than in a "trivia" section (which is by definition irrelevant). Markalexander100 01:36, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)
There seems to be a comment of "this is so fucking dumb" after the first paragraph, can this be removed
In History / Expansion, we have
By 1647, the Company had 23 factories and 90 employees in India.
That's 4 employees per factory. Before the age of robotics. Are we sure of these numbers?-- StanZegel 06:45, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
In the English language of the time, the word factories meant trading posts run by factors. The places where things were made are manufactories. Dabbler 09:02, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
In The End, we have
... it continued to maintain a trading office in London as of 2004. ... the Company was dissolved on January 1, 1874.
Keeping staff on the payroll 130 years after the need for them has ended seems a bit excessive, even in tradition-bound England. And when the company is actually out of business, one wonders who is paying the current expenses, and why. I suspect the statement above about 2004 needs verification. Is it undetected vandalism? -- StanZegel 16:10, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Googling shows that there IS a company called The East India Company in London (Lincolns Inn Fields) but whether this is in any way connected to the original East India Company I cannot tell. It sells tea in decorative caddies. Dabbler 09:59, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Yale founded by a director? Anything on connections with yankee traders, early banks (eg Little&Brown), effects on American history ? The Bengal Famine said to have killed 15M. wblakesx Wblakesx
Hi, I am working to encourage implementation of the goals of the Wikipedia:Verifiability policy. Part of that is to make sure articles cite their sources. This is particularly important for featured articles, since they are a prominent part of Wikipedia. The Fact and Reference Check Project has more information. Thank you, and please leave me a message when you have added a few references to the article. - Taxman 20:00, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)
It is a big change from British to English, but it is not the British East India Company. Britain , or Great Britain, refers to the British Empire, which the English East India Company had a large part in forming. This is not my interpretation, but how the company is referred to in the community that writes about it and pre-modern economic history.
see: Kenneth Pomeranz. 200. The Great Divergence. Chaudhuri, K. N. Trading world of Asia and the English East India Company, 1660-1760 K. N. Chaudhuri. Chaudhuri, K. N. English East India Company; the study of an early joint-stock company, 1600-1640 [by] K. N. Chaudhuri. Holden Furber. Rival Empires of Trade Furber Holden. 1997. Private fortunes and company profits in the India trade in the 18th century.
Other sources:
Basset, D. K. 1960. The trade of the English East India Company in the Far East, 1623-1684. Keay, John. The honourable company : a history of the English East India Company / John Keay. Varma, Birendra. English East India Company and the Afghans, 1757-1800. R.J. Barendse. The Arabian Seas, 1640-1700
This is a very partial list.
I should also mention its a very well done page. Beae33 19:32, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
You cannot call it the English East India Company either, since after James I succeeded Elizabeth I the country became "The United Kingdom (of England and Scotland)". "(Honourable) East India Company" would be more appropriate.
Why does this article call it "Honourable" when all other articles in Wikipidea that mentions this company calls it "British"? Was it because while the British Empire outlawed opium trading in contemporary Britain, it still brought money to the Empire with such a trade? Or was it because it had the power to trigger two wars against a nation that opposed itself to opium importation? Are these the reasons why this article calls it "Honourable"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.159.86.164 ( talk) 14:42, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
It should remain as the British East India Company because that was its name to begin with. Open any history book like A History of the English Speaking Peoples and you would find that it was named the British East India Company. It also goes by that name in school and collage text books. To call it English or Honorable would be rewriting history based on a few peoples views. Wikipedia is about accurate and neutral information. - Mr.NorCal55 ( talk) 21:03, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
A related topic, spice trade, is currently nominated on WP:IDRIVE. Support or comment on the nomination there if you are interested.-- Fenice 09:36, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
The Company (or rather, the company that continued operating under its name) has supposedly been redesigning its web site for six years. Does anyone know its status? Gazpacho 07:38, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Regarding the company that is operating under the East India name: I can't find anything in the UK trade mark records about a Tony Wild or a David Hutton. The name listed as registrant for all of the various trade marks owned by the East India Company is Langner Parry. A complete listing of the trade marks owned by the East India Company can be found here. -- 192.251.125.85 09:02, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Your intro states the company was formed with the intention of trading in India. The main body of the article states (correctly) that it was formed with the intention of trading in the East Indies, and only turned to India after being thrown out of the Indies by the Dutch. Worth clarifying? PiCo 03:17, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
The last paragraph of the introduction worries me, inasmuch as it is a quote, and may be POV, I quote it here: "As Adam Smith wrote, "The difference between the genius of the British constitution which protects and governs North America, and that of the mercantile company which oppresses and domineers in the East Indies, cannot perhaps be better illustrated than by the different state of those countries."" 70.48.13.20 20:48, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Re: "The flag probably inspired the Stars and Stripes (as argued by Sir Charles Fawcett in 1937)." Richard Buckminster Fuller's also argued this fact in his paper "Critical Path", he goes furter to say that as most of the boats involved in the boston tea party belonged to the east india company, this would have been that flag that flew over heads of the revolutionaries.
maybe the RB Fuller & "Critical Path" reference can be mentioned, but i will leave that to ye.
In regards to the flag: The use of the earlier St. George's Cross (English Flag) version of the EIC flag at the top of the page refers to the English EIC, before the Great Britain existed. It seems to me that for the British east india company, a version such as Image:Grand union flag large v2.png should be used, including the Union Jack in the corner, instead of the Enlgish flag. Canaen 00:10, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
http://www.kimber.org/flag/Gallery/Documents/Flags%20at%20Sea/index.htm
Dbnull 16:34, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
The section on the flags is nice, but in its current location it obscures the argument. Perhaps it could be moved closer to the end of the article? Eric 13:16, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Whoever compiled the bulk of this article seems to be confused as to whether the Honourable East India Company is English, or British. Certainly well into the 1700s it is regarded by most British historians as being uniquely English. When did it receive a 'British' charter? Christchurch 12:46, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
[ [I am probably as much a patriot as the next person but I do think the title at the top of the article page should read Honourable East India Company and not British, as the HEIC is what it actually was and was known as throughout its existance. Christchurch 11:12, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
There is still an HEIC Archive Office in London. If you look, for instance, in Burke's Peerage going back to the beginning of the 19th century, at the armies of men from these old families who served with the company, you will see that against all of them are the initials HEIC or "HEIC's service". Several books have been published over the years about "The Honourable Company". Do you think this has been plucked from thin air? I, for instance, have never heard of the "John Company". Is this a working-class description rather than the official title the company wished to be known by? What next! It is also bizarre to suggest that just because an English company has Welsh, Scots or Irish working within it, that it somehow assumes a British/United Kingdom status. It does not. It's an English enterprise. It was never known as the British East India Co, so the title on this article is, very simply, wrong. Christchurch 19:08, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
If you re-read this section of the Talk page the argument is clear enough. Wikipedia claims it is an encyclopaedia and if that is the case its rather important to get at least the title right! Christchurch 18:57, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
It should remain as the British East India Company because that was its name to begin with. Open any history book like A History of the English Speaking Peoples and you would find that it was named the British East India Company. It also goes by that name in school and collage text books. To call it English or Honorable would be rewriting history based on a few peoples views. Wikipedia is about accurate and neutral information. - Mr.NorCal55 ( talk) 04:00, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
What was Charles James Fox's failed East India Bill of 1783? Cutler 09:35, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
The Joint stock article states the Dutch East Indies Company was the first (in 1602). How does this relate to the claim in this article that it was founded in 1600. Was the BEIC originally different or was the DEIC not the first, and is the jounts stock article in error?? Arnoutf 16:57, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
The article states: "However, the demands of Company officers on the treasury of Bengal contributed tragically to the province's incapacity in the face of a famine which killed millions in 1770-1773."
There is a much more malign interpretation of the death of 10 million people on this website:
http://mathaba.net/news/?x=67636
In 1800 the population of England was about one million. If ten million really died in Bengal, and the East India company were really liable, then there is a huge scandal. Ogg 12:16, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
You guys are the same old Brits! EIC taxed 80% of the food grains during famine and people died out of starvation. You ask the world to what extent EIC is to blame? Inhuman laughable stocks nothing more. 72.137.199.238 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 02:02, 9 November 2008 (UTC).
Pasting from another wikipedia article (look for Bengal Famine) here since it's relevant:
"Fault for the famine is now often ascribed to the British East India Company policies in Bengal. As a trading body, its first remit was to maximise its profits and with taxation rights the profits to be obtained from Bengal came from land tax as well as trade tariffs. As lands came under company control, the land tax was typically raised by 3 to 4 times what it had been – from 10-15% up to 50% of the value of the agricultural produce. In the first years of the rule of the British East India Company, the total land tax income was doubled and most of this revenue flowed out of the country. As the famine approached its height, in April of 1770, the Company announced that land tax for the following year was to be increased by 10%. The company is also criticised for forbidding the "hoarding" of rice. This prevented traders and dealers from laying in reserves that in other times would have tided the population over lean periods.]]By the time of the famine, monopolies in grain trading had been established by the Company and its agents. The Company had no plan for dealing with the grain shortage, and actions were only taken insofar as they affected the mercantile and trading classes. Land revenue decreased by 14% during the affected year, but recovered rapidly (Kumkum Chatterjee). According to McLane, the first governor-general of British India, Warren Hastings, acknowledged "violent" tax collecting after 1771: revenues earned by the Company were higher in 1771 than in 1768 [1]. Globally, the profit of the Company increased from 15 million rupees in 1765 up to 30 million rupees in 1777.
So the question is not really what would have happened had the French ruled, but why this did really did not result either in a serious revolt or by the closure of the EIC by the monarchy. As for the latter, perhaps the later Bengal famines and the response of various British leaders including Churchill is a pointer to the nature of the Raj (not very different from the EIC). These really are bigger indicators of the devastating impact the successive British leaderships had on the Indian economy and society than relatively smaller incidents like the Jallianwala Bagh massacre of 1919.
It seems to me that the article exaggerates the reduction in the French threat after Plassey; for example in:
By 1760, the French were driven out of India, with the exception of a few trading posts on the coast, such as Pondicherry.
and
By the Treaty of Paris (1763), the French were forced to maintain their trade posts only in small enclaves in Pondicherry, Mahe, Karikal, Yanam, and Chandernagar without any military presence. Although these small outposts remained French possessions for the next two hundred years, French ambitions on Indian territories were effectively laid to rest, thus eliminating a major source of economic competition for the Company. In contrast, the Company, fresh from a colossal victory, and with the backing of a disciplined and experienced army, was able to assert its interests in the Carnatic from its base at Madras and in Bengal from Calcutta, without facing any further obstacles from other colonial powers.
But in 1795 William Kirkpatrick, the British resident at Hyderabad, wrote: "[General Michel Raymond] is now at the head of a disciplined force of at least 10,000 infantry, with a well-equipped train of artillery, pretty well-officered with Europeans who are of his own nation and principles."(Dalrymple 2003: p100)
As for French ambitions being laid to rest, there was considerable fear that Napoleon was going to attack India after his conquest of Egypt. In fact, it could be argued that the expansion of British power in India was a deliberate power game in competition with the French. The French were allies of Mysore in the Anglo-Mysore Wars and supported Tipu Sultan at the Battle of Seringapatam in 1799. qp10qp 06:02, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
This was an English company, incorporated in England, known as the Honourable East India Company, and when people served with them they usually have the initials HEICS after their name. It was never a British company. This title is wrong. David Lauder 20:42, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
<comic book guy voice>:
In the eighteenth century, opium was highly sought after by the Chinese , and so in 1773, the Company bla bla bla
the bias and POV on this article are only matched by the British Empire one. How can it be possible to let it be nominated to "featured article" or "best wikipedia article" ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.18.144.64 ( talk)
Actually, the British East India Company made a fortune selling Opium in China. The British gov't even made deals with them to allow sales of opium as long as they didn't sell in England. Granted China wasn't the only place they sold opium but it sure was the biggest customer. So don't whine about it just because you think it's racially insensitive. It is accurate.
-Wikiman2009
And that is why the British had to fight wars to ensure they could continue selling opium in China. Yeah right, that makes a lot of sense.
Umm, actually, the opium wars stemmed from a seperate issue. And yes opium was sought after by the Chinese. It is undenyable that a significant part of the population was hooked on the stuff. Check your facts, and sign your posts. Theheadhunter 10:17, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
-G —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.32.141.8 ( talk) 04:21, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
Why is it written that the British company is "preceeded only from" the Dutch one? (first paragraph)and then the date of foundation of the Dutch company is after the foundation of the British one? Somebody more expert could help, because I don't have references on the subject. Antis 12:17, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone have a GFDL picture or scan of the EIC logo (the letters E, I, and C around a chevron inside a shield)?
Rimi talk 09:05, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Was that a logo used by the real East India Co. or was it just invented for the Pirates of the Caribbean movies? If it was only used by the movies I don't think it should be added to this article. Occasional Reader 20:34, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Do you mean this EICo symbol. I think it is the one they used in Pirates of the Carribean. It is actually the symbol for the East India Trading Company. However, I do not know what the diffrence between East India Company and East India Trading Company is, if there is a diffrence. -- Drew2794 ( talk) 20:25, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
I removed the following comment from the text of this article. Trey56 08:22, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
There is no mention of slave trade and piracy activities of the EIC and its employees in the article . Has this been edited out or can one not find the references to it? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_East_India_Company
In response: If someone actually wrote "There is no mention of slave trade and piracy activities of the EIC and its employees in the article . Has this been edited out or can one not find the references to it?" in the article itself, of course you should have taken it out, but you should not have removed any reference to slavery. And if that was in the discussion, you were past wrong to remove it. That was apparently the only reference in the entire article to the role that the EIC played in the so-called "triangle trade," and now there's nothing indicating that the EIC ever had anything to do with slavery. As embarrassing as it may seem now, it's not helping anyone who uses Wikipedia as reference material to pretend that what happened didn't happen. That needs to be corrected. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marguerite de Navarre ( talk • contribs) 03:17, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
Would anyone (Xdamr?) actually care to defend the ridiculous, undiscussed move of this article to Honourable East India Company, which clearly violates all relevant naming policies? I've moved it back. john k 14:31, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I apologise for not taking part in this conversation when it was active, but now that I have noticed it, I must say that I disagree with this move. Why should this be under its full formal title when the Dutch, Danish, French, and Swedish East India Companies are all listed simply by their national adjective? If this is the "Honourable East India Company" (and I do agree with all those who said that Honourable is not essential to the name), then the Dutch EIC should be listed as "United East India Company" or "United East Indian Company" or "Vereenigde Oostindische Compagnie". My personal vote is to revert it back to British East India Company or to English East India Company, in order to match the naming convention the other EICs observe. (Personally, I prefer English over British, because every text I've ever read on the subject has talked about "the English" and not "the British".) LordAmeth 22:06, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
I suggest the entire section be removed, per WP:TRIV and based on guidance in Wikipedia:"In popular culture" articles.
The Star Wars section of the popular culture sections lacks sources and appears to be original research. Additional it doesn't seem notable to the EIC. (If sources could be cited it might be reasonable to see it included in one of the Star Wars articles).
And for the Pirates of the Caribean, the EIC may be important to the PotC movies, but the PotC movies don't seem important to the EIC. Occasional Reader 20:43, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
"established editor" lordy lord... as time goes along, Wikipedia is being slowly polluted with the hubris of armchair academics, its funny to watch but a little sad. The above argument is idiotic. PotC is populist crap, no doubting that, however its populist crap that has introduced the EIC to millions upon millions of human beings that otherwise wouldn't know or care that the EIC existed. PotC is the very definition of popular culture and that's why wikipedia has a section for popular culture after all isn't it? I'll put it back for you...no need to trouble yourself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.214.37.23 ( talk) 10:53, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
Did the Company maintain its own military forces or were forces from the standing military just allocated to their command or were they all "soldiers of fortune"? Could the military forces of the Company be considered seperate from the standard army, navy, etc? Did they have their own uniforms?-- TPrice180 17:10, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Late answer I know but the HEIC did indeed have its own private army, I came to this site hoping to find more info but was surprised to find little. I don't have sufficient knowledge to add an article on the main page but I do know that they wore similar uniforms to the regular army (red coats etc) and that they were separate from the regular military. They did fight alongside the regular army in India and came under the command of Sir Arthur Wellesley for a time. Their officers did not purchase their commissions like the regular army of the 18th/19th Century so they did not advance up the ranks quickly like their regular counterparts. Promotion for the officers was based on seniority only, effectively 'dead mans shoes'.Beyond this I have no more information. 82.34.55.108 mspice2215 ( talk) 22:16, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
I have no idea about the details here, but someone told me that "Falu Koppargruva" in Sweden was sold in "stocks" from the 1300s until about ten years ago when they closed down. If so, would that not be the first? DanielDemaret 12:51, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
I think that the introduction should be revised also- if you go to the "joint stock" page linked in the introduction, it mentions other earlier joint stock issues (hundreds of years before the HEIC's inception. The statement that the HEIC is the first joint stock company seems to be incorrect. Bradby 18:00, 9 September 2007 (UTC)Bradby
I have undone the move to British East India Company for the various reasons given before by Xdamr, that HEIC was its official name, often called 'The Honourable Company'. There was no attempt to get consensus for such an obviously contentious move so, I undid it and await some attempt to gain a consensus for a move. Narson ( talk) 22:10, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Quote:
"By 1689, the Company was arguably a "nation" in the Indian mainland, independently administering the vast presidencies of Bengal, Madras and Bombay and possessing a formidable and intimidating military strength."
Firstly, the Company didn't even establish themselves in Bengal until 1690! They couldn't trade freely there until 1716. In 1689 the total size of Company administered areas in India came to a few square miles, and it would remain so until the 1750's! - indeed, the rest of the article spells this out. By 1689 they only had control of the relatively small settlements of Bombay, Madras and Surrat - which were very small places in the 17th century, and even then, they had only established themselves in Bombay some two decades before. The Company, at that time, had a few hundred men at arms in India - was this "formidable and intimidating military strength"?
I have deleted the lines for the reasons stated. It appears that the person that included those lines, knows nothing about Indian history - let alone the East India Company.
TB —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.216.20.70 ( talk) 22:10, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
The English people presence in India for 250 plus years was solely driven by spirit of expoliting India economically to make their parent country England richer and prosperous and in turn generate income for hundred & thousand of British people who were part of the British rule and corrupt administration in India. They hated and racially discriminated Indian people because they found them primitive and darker in skin colour due to which they taxed them even at the point of starvation and allowed them to die in millions without any relief during floods and famines. Some development or reforms they brought about during their corrupt and murderous rule can't be cited to justify or glorify their endeavour to make India bankrupt, illiterate, partitioned on communal designs, poverty ridden and without little infrastructure at the point of their exit in 1947. Anyone who had raised voice against their corrupt & murderous rule was either jailed or killed with the help of corrupt judiciary.
Their presence was not driven by India building mission, if that was the case than why so much difference in the socio-economic conditions of India and Britain at the time of Independence. And for that matter even if they would had stayed in India after 1947 they would had created a underclass based on race & skin colour like the Aparthied regime of South Africa which had denied black Africans the basic human rights or the "Stolen Generation" in Australia where descendant's of British people even now treats it's indigenous black people as racial untouchables, after two centuries of discrimination, murder and exploitation. Britishers could not guarantee racial equality, equal opportunity and economic prosperity for million of Indians and used them as commodities for thier own benefit. In short their objective was met as they grew richer India became poorer. One of the best thing happened in the history of India was the demise of East India company and subsequently the Britsh rule in 1947.
"Where is the Truth -The article is full of lies we want to read the Neutral Point of view not some British crap!"--Himhifi 12:04, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Himhifi. The HEIC has a long history of exploitation in India. This article is written with a complete disregard for that facet of the company. Even the basic concept of a "company" conquering a nation is exploitative. Why is there no criticism of its actions? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
68.105.153.73 (
talk)
17:21, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to refer you to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enron#Accounting_scandal_of_2001 The Enron page is about the Company, Enron, but also includes criticism and controversy within the same page, as it is historically relevant. Why does this exclude the Honourable East India Company? There are criticisms; why are they not listend in this page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.105.153.73 ( talk) 04:11, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
"Where is the Truth -The article is full of lies we want to read the Neutral Point of view not some British crap!"
"Why is there no criticism of its actions?"
"Why does this exclude the Honourable East India Company? There are criticisms; why are they not listend in this page?"
The above are criticisms made in previous contributions here. The answer: because nobody has (yet) written the critical information and related references. Wikipedia is written by anyone who wants to, not by an editorial authority. People have written what they knew about, from their viewpoint; if information is needed to correct the impression given, then it needs to be added, with supporting references. Any unsupported information, whichever way it's biased, is likely to be removed.
Pol098 (
talk)
19:11, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Surprisingly little mention made of this private army, I had hoped to find some. Any one out there with enough knowledge to add something? mspice2215 82.34.55.108 ( talk) 20:10, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
On the one hand, the the article states that the company was dissolved in 1874; on the other the article, corroborated by a recent newspaper article, documents the original company being bought in 2005 by an Indian billionaire. Maybe somebody can fill in the gap? Pol098 ( talk) 19:00, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
ITS NOT CORRECT TO LEAVE AWAY THE FACTS ABOUT THE COMPANY SUCH AS:
-Battle of Plassey -Bengal famine of 1770 -Jallianwala Bagh massacre -british contrribution to poverty in india. -that the british rule costed ca. 70 million indian lives.
and a lote more...
THE CURRENT VERSION IS A BAISED ONE, AND I THIS IT SHOULD BE REMOVED WHEN FAILS TO SHOW THE TRUTH: I HOPE THERE ARE MORE OUT THERE WHO THINK AS I DO:
Bodhisattva2008 —Preceding comment was added at 18:53, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
There is a recent and very good hour-long lecture giving an overview of the company - 'The Imperious Company: The East India Company and the Modern Multinational', by the historian, Nick Robbins: http://www.gresham.ac.uk/event.asp?PageId=45&EventId=756 I think that this would be a very nice link to give a narrative overview of the company (especially as it has MP3, MP4 and text versions available of the lecture to download for free). (I don't put this up directly, as there is a potential issue of conflict-of-interest as I am linked to Gresham College, but I will gladly put it up if people agree to the post.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jamesfranklingresham ( talk • contribs) 15:21, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Could the main of authors of this article please detail the reasons for choosing the "Honourable East India Company" for the page name? Sure, it was a formal name, but it is one that is today mostly used as a literary, sardonic, or satirical flourish, for example, as in the title of John Keay's book, The Honourable Company: A History of the English East India Company. Serious secondary sources (by an overwhelming margin) don't call it that; they simply call it the East India Company, or when disambiguation is a must, either the English East India Company or the British East India Company. See below.
Finally among all encyclopedias there are:
My recommendation is that this page be moved to "East India Company", with a "for other uses: see East India Company (disambiguation) link at the top; i.e. the current East India Company page would then be moved to East India Company (disambiguation). That would be the page name most in keeping with both scholarly and encyclopedic precedent. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 23:41, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
The ideal name is "East India Company". However, there is already a disamb page with that name and we'd have to usurp that page with a disamb redirect in the first line. Which, I worry, will upset the other East India Company editors! Should we take this proposal to the talk page of "East India Company" first? -- Regents Park ( count the magpies) 15:35, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
The article presently opens:
The Honourable East India Company (HEIC), most commonly referred to as the East India Trading Company...
I have never heard it referred to by the latter name, let alone "most commonly referred to". The only instance when I have heard this usage is for the fictionalised company in the Pirates of the Caribbean series of films. I citation-tagged this on 24 July 2008 but the tag was removed by an anonymous user on 15 August. I'm removing the phrase "most commonly referred to as the EITC" from the opening paragraph. Opera hat ( talk) 10:51, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
Robert Blackborne, who worked at the Admiralty, is described later in Samuel Pepys' diaries as Secretary of the East India Company. Does anyone know if this is correct? What was Blackborne's relationship to the East India Company? [10] Also wondering if he is connected to the London merchant Abraham Blackborne (I suspect he is, as the Blackborne family were later recipients of a large sum of money left to them by Will Hewer, Pepys' longtime friend and former servant). Thank you much for any info. Regards, MarmadukePercy ( talk) 06:18, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
From Justice Upon Petition: The House of Lords and the Reformation of Justice, 1621-1675 by James S. Hart. Routledge, 1991. ISBN 0049422022. "In an attempt to head off that judgement, the East India Company petitioned the House of Commons in mid-April 1668 ... In the meantime, the Lords had reached a final decision. On 29 April they awarded Skinner £5,000 in damages against the Company ... The Lords considered the petition 'scandalous' in both tone and content ... The house immediately ordered the author of the petition, Robert Blackborne, the company secretary, as well as a number of the company's officers to appear and explain themselves. As a result, Blackborne, Sir Samuel Barnardiston, Sir Andrew Riccard, Roland Wynne and Christopher Boone were all committed to the custody of Black Rod in lieu of £2,000 bail. (p. 196)"
Fowler&fowler «Talk» 13:49, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
This section degrades into an anti-British diatribe, attributing several atrocities to the EIC, but without citing any sources. It needs a cleanup or removal. Also, the discussion on this talk page should be archived as it is becoming unwieldy. Calydon ( talk) 21:01, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
I cannot believe that relevant verbiage has been deleted. If it does not belong here, then post it under the right section. I don't see the following, that used to be part of this article anywhere. It is not "anti British diatribe" Given the atrocities the british committed in India, it is hard to overstate/exaggerate the negative impact they have had on the economy. This is the relevant section:
"The British rule ruined India economically.GDP estimates An estimate by Angus Maddison, formerly of Groningen University, reveals that India's share of the world income went from 24.4% in 1700, comparable to Europe's share of 23.3%, to a low of 3.8% in 1952" Clearly quotes and sources have been provided. I am adding it back into the main article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.96.39.35 ( talk) 07:29, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
2009 (UTC)
The Pitiful and Violent Rat of a company East India Company (PVRCEIC)??? wtf? 208.58.26.153 ( talk) 00:58, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
Can we agree on this change. Vontrotta ( talk) 06:43, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Looks like there is consensus then to change this article to "East India Company" and to seek consensus to change the disambiguation page. Great! So, is someone going to take the next step? I haven't done this before and would love to see someone else take the ball and run with it.
Vontrotta (
talk)
15:26, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was Move Parsecboy ( talk) 21:13, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
We are requesting that the page name be changed to
East India Company since the latter name is used overwhelmingly for the English/British/Honourable East India Company by secondary and tertiary sources. See the
Page Name section above for recent discussion. We are also requesting that the contents of the current
East India Company page (a disambiguation page) be moved to
East India Company (disambiguation). Please discuss below
Fowler&fowler
«Talk»
10:01, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
I support the move. I'd be surprised if any of the other companies has ever been referred to as "East India Company" (in English).
81.98.251.134 (
talk)
10:26, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
IMO, this should be moved straightaway. WP is not the place to have this "Honourable" nonsense.- Bharatveer ( talk) 05:31, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
With this in mind, we might want to re-write the intro. It currently read:
The Honourable East India Company (HEIC), referred to most commonly as the East India Company, also, historically and colloquially, as John Company, or as Company Bahadur in India, was an early English joint-stock company[1] formed for trade with the Indian subcontinent and Southeast Asia.
I'd suggest something along the lies of:
The English East India Company, officially the Honourable East India Company (HEIC) from 1709, referred to most commonly as the East India Company, John Company, The Honourable Company or as Company Bahadur in India, was an early English joint-stock company[1] formed for trade with the Indian subcontinent and Southeast Asia.
Does that seem acceptable? -- Narson ~ Talk • 21:58, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
I propose the following change to your suggestion:
The East India Company, also the English East India Company, [1] and sometimes the British East India Company, [2] was an early English joint-stock company [3] formed for trade with the Indian subcontinent and Southeast Asia. The Company was granted an English Royal Charter, under the name Governor and Company of Merchants of London Trading into the East Indies, by Elizabeth I on 31 December 1600. [4] After a rival company was set up in the late 17th century, the two companies were amalgamated in 1708 under the name United Company of Merchants of England Trading to the East Indies, commonly styled the Honourable [5] East India Company, [6] and abbreviated as HEIC; [7] it was colloquially referred to as John Company, [8] and in India as Company Bahadur. [9]
I feel that "Honourable" should occur in the lead paragraph, but not in the lead sentence. This is because too many names presented all at once become confusing for a new reader; also, none of the other major tertiary sources, Britannica 2008, Britannica 1911 (which was published only a half century after the dissolution of the company), Encarta, Encyclopedia Americana, Columbia Encyclopedia, or Webster's Encyclopedia mention "Honourable" anywhere in their articles.
Fowler&fowler
«Talk»
18:47, 23 October 2008 (UTC)