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I presume this has been moved from East End to make way for a disambiguation page. If that's the case, I suggest East End of London as a better title here -- it will link naturally in text. -- Tarquin
Can anyone explain why the Gordon Riots are labelled "racist" if they were against Roman Catholicism?
The East End has always been one of the poorest areas of London While I agree the geographical boundaries have always been fuzzy; the term 'East End' itself seems to have been introduced in about 1888 (see "Fishman: East End 1888", an excellent source by a local academic & historian) It should also be noted that in tudor times many palaces and rich estates were located in the East End; it's decline as a political centre did not occur until the rising importance of the palace of Westminster, when the locus shifted west ward. Kbthompson 15:13, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
OK, I added a lengthy 'contemporary' quote at the beginning, I think (like Fishman) it says it all, however, others might want to bring it down to a sentence, and quote the reference. Kbthompson 13:33, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
In my own defence, I did note that. I've now moved it into a separate section. I think it's a good quote, as it both notes the first use, and gives something of the flavour of what was intended by it. In this edit, I added copyhold, matchgirls strike and revised some of the text. I hope the changes meet with approval. Kbthompson 16:10, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Practically, perfect in every way (... Mary Poppins) ... My resolution, was clumsy. I added geo Essex to the note about Newham and Redbridge. I'm thinking there's a point to be made also about the 'East End' today, being 'in the head', and extending with the diaspora as far as places like the Isle of Grain (in Kent) - where I stumbled upon an East End night (including cockney songs, eels, pies and the whole caboodle). Oh, and making a comparison with 'cockneys' who were essentially residents of the city Need also to note, in Medieval times, much of the land around the river was marsh; so Ratcliffe and Wapping were easier to get to by boat, than by the single dangerous road across the marsh. For the same reason North Woolwich was in Kent until about 1902! Kbthompson 18:40, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Interesting, I knew of the 'red cliffe', but roman road, where did it go? The Ratcliffe Highway was much of the modern Cable St, I think. Surely, it just got into a corner of the river lee and thames, or even modern wapping - was there a roman port there? I've walked the 'wall' from tower bridge to canary wharf, much of this was created in the middle ages and maintained by the church - with windmills on! Modern wharehouse style appartment blocks sit across this now; but it can still be seen at places like Wapping steps. I thought much of the land behind was just marsh, but you're right about Ratcliffe Hw, maybe that was the sole road? Thinking about it, there is a very step drop down to the river from St George's in the East. Kbthompson 22:52, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Things for specific localities should go on the specific pages; Ratcliff itself looks very stubby at the moment, there's a lot more to say about the area - including some of your local colour. It would be appropriate here to give a flavour of the whole area in Roman times - perhaps some of the history of the tower (as it's not a part of the city of london). You appear to keep very odd hours! Kbthompson 15:12, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
I certainly see what you mean. A lot of amorphous facts. In writing these articles, one really needs to have a clear story in mind, one that is 'encyclopedically' important. Much of what is there could have been abstracted from a Gazetter. Maybe the tactic for the moment is to incorporate both Cable Street and the Ratcliffe as sections into the Wapping page; create a 'Cable Street, Battle of' page if one doesn't exist - it must do ... as it stands at the moment, there's a lot of duplication between the various pages, and none of them tell a consistent tale about the development of the area. That's my pennyworth! Kbthompson 12:28, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Also, this article now seems to be pretty firm on when the term East End came into use: was the term West End already in use by this stage? It was I suppose an analogous usage. Morwen - Talk 11:05, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Looking at the google books search, prior to 1880, it seems to bring up the phrase 'the east end of London', after you get refs to the 'East End' (capitals, and no qualifier). I think this is what Freeman and Palmer are on about. I wonder what it does for 'West End'? I wrote the promised para on radicals - it probably needs to be translated into english - and a bit on downstream developments. I tried looking up the Metropolitan Building Acts, and the only ones I found were actually related to construction to prevent fire - including the max volume a building could be to allow a fire to be put out! I think MRSC got me back, as it were ... I have no electrickery tomorrow, so shall be silent for a while (not sulking). Kbthompson 18:19, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Surely our work here is not done? 8^) East Ham looks a good candidate for a rewrite! Some mention should be made here of early immigrant communities - chinese in Limehouse, asian and black sailors in Ratcliffe. All connected with the sea. Kbthompson 19:43, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Come to think of it, the City of London is a definite western boundary and the River Thames is a physical southern boundary. Should this go in the intro? MRSC • Talk 18:39, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
If I remember correctly London over the Border was an ecclesastical term, not administrative?
Prior to the formation of the LCC (London County Council) the area east of the city and west of the Lee/Lea (both spellings are used) was part of Middlesex and east of the Lee was Essex (with the exception of the anomalous North Woolwich). When the LCC was formed in the late 1800s, the boundary was the Lea (except, again, for North Woolwich) West Ham became a County Borough roughly equivalent to today's unitary authorities; i.e. a separate independant administrative body. East Ham followed suit in 1916 and the London boundary remained the Lea until the formation of the GLC when East and West Ham and North Woolwich were merged into Newham. A point to note is that the public records of both County Boroughs upto 1965 were sent to, and are held at Essex record office.
At one time one of the more optomistic local politicians campaigned for West Ham County Borough to become the County Town of Essex! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.31.111.163 ( talk • contribs)
Overall, this article is very well written, includes useful, fair-use images, and informative. The citations are sufficient, although there are still a few minor gaps where citations should be added (first part of history section, population, and today), but serious issues with citations. The one sentence that really does need a reference is, "With rising costs elsewhere in the capital, the East End has become a desirable place for business." -- but I won't hold up GA status for this statement. Other than that, looks good! Dr. Cash 19:34, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
It's already extensively referenced in the article. The Victoria County History online is in copyright, because the online version was created in 2002 - although some elements of the text version are out of copyright. Volume 11 is mainly 1960s, so remains in copyright for a few more years. It's best to paraphrase since here we are creating an article that introduces the important elements, and provide the background for readers to examine the full text if they're interested. Kbthompson 12:40, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force in an effort to ensure all listed Good articles continue to meet the Good article criteria. In reviewing the article, I have found there are some issues that may need to be addressed.
I will check back in no less than seven days. If progress is being made and issues are addressed, the article will remain listed as a Good article. Otherwise, it may be delisted (such a decision may be challenged through WP:GA/R). If improved after it has been delisted, it may be nominated at WP:GAC. Feel free to drop a message on my talk page if you have any questions. Regards, Epbr123 09:31, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force. I believe the article currently meets the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. The article history has been updated to reflect this review. Regards, Epbr123 21:47, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
I am working my way through and copy editing. I hope this is useful.
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BetacommandBot ( talk) 04:41, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Mainpage in 12 hours, and there are no publishers on citations (I hope they are all reliable sources, since it doesn't appear anyone reviewed for that at FAC). I also noticed WP:DASH issues throughout, example: Limehouse is also the scene of the Fu Manchu films - based on Sax Rohmer's novels. I haven't checked other issues: anyone around to begin cleanup before tomorrow? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 14:49, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Text erased
Leon Trotsky, Joseph Stalin and Vladimir Lenin ... plot the October Revolution.
I erased these lines for :
1/ It is a well known fact that Stalin never travelled out of the Russian Empire. 2/ In 1906, nobody could "plot the 1917 October Revolution". 3/ Iskra was a newspaper, not a party. The wikipedia page about the Russian Social-Democratic Party tells that the 1903 meeting was in Belgium.
I do not know when and were Trotsky and Lenin have been in the London East End, but certainly it is possible to find it.
ttotto 23 February 2008
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Ttotto ( talk • contribs) 05:40, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
I know it's not the 'done thing' for this kind of comment on a Talk page but I wanted to congratulate the editors on what is a truly stunning article. Dick G ( talk) 06:17, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
East End 260207
I maintain what I said some days ago.
Stalin could not be in Whitechapel in 1906, as he never left Russia (or the U.S.S.R.) before 1943, when he met Churchill and Roosevelt at the Tehran conference. In the years 1900, Stalin was almost unknown by Russian socialists. His activity was intermediate between banditry and revolutionary action in Baku, Azerbaijan. There are some evidences he was actually during this period an Okhrana agent. This part of his life is explained in the Wikipedia Stalin page.
I do not have the time to check for exact references, but it is possible to refer to the Trotsky memories (My life), or to Lenin writings. My sources are historians I read in the years eighty. I never read that Stalin was a delegate in any congress in western Europe. What is your source for this assumption ? (Stalin, then known as Joseph Djugashvili, stayed in Tower House, a hostel for itinerant workers near the London Hospital, for two weeks, paying sixpence a night for a cubicle. He was the delegate from Tbilisi.) This is something new.
Lenin wrote he met Stalin for the first time in 1917 in Petrograd. He called him the marvelous Georgian. This is during this period (the Kerensky government) that there was a plot for an October revolution.
In december 1905 Trotsky was arrested in Petrograd and spent the 1906 year in jail. He escaped in january 1907 and travelled once again to London.
This story is explained in the Wikipedia Trotsky page.
In My life Trotsky mention a party congress in London in 1907. He say he met Maxim Gorky and Rosa Luxemburg.
Trotsky told about Stalin in another book about his policy (Stalin) as a philistine, ignorant in foreign languages, and this is obviously what he was. He was not exactly a globe-trotter. He travelled out of Russia once to Tehran (1943), and once to Potsdam (1945).
Trotsky My Life, extracts: Trotsky My Life @ http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1930/mylife/index.htm
CHAPTER XVI
MY SECOND FOREIGN EXILE: GERMAN SOCIALISM
The party congress of 1907 held its meetings in a socialist church in London. It was a protracted,crowded, stormy, and chaotic congress. ... On one of the first days of the congress, I was stopped in the church vestibule by a tall, angular man with a round face and high cheek-bones, who wore a round hat. “I am your admirer,” he said, with an amiable chuckle. “Admirer?” I echoed in astonishment. It seemed that the compliment referred to my political pamphlets that had been written in prison. My interlocutor was Maxim Gorky, and this was the first time I ever saw him. ... At the London congress I renewed acquaintance with Rosa Luxemburg, whom I had known since 1904.
This page about the East End is great and should not be weakened with an erroneous statement.
I did not change the page. It has been changed many times today, and I suppose Kbthompson had a heavy work after my deletion.
Ttotto —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ttotto ( talk • contribs) 20:13, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
1898-1900, Under the leadership of J. V. Stalin, V. Z. Ketskhoveli and A. G. Tsulukidze, a central leading group is formed within the Tiflis organization of the RSDLP, which passes from propaganda in study circles to mass political agitation. The group organizes the printing of manifestoes and their distribution among the workers, forms underground Social-Democratic circles, and leads the strikes and political struggle of the Tiflis proletariat.
In 1907, On returning from the Fifth ("London") Congress of the RSDLP, J. V. Stalin visits Baku and Tiflis and delivers reports on the congress at meetings of the Social-Democratic organizations of Baku, Tiflis and a number of districts in Western Georgia.
In the cited reference in the article, it states
... Stalin, then Joseph Djugashvili, spent a fortnight there in a sixpence-a-night cubicle when he attended the Fifth Congress of the Russian Social Democratic and Labour Party across the road in Whitechapel. Lenin, meanwhile, preferred to commute from Bloomsbury where he could also visit the British Museum. The congress, to which British intelligence turned a blind eye, consolidated the supremacy of the Bolshevik party and debated strategy for communist revolution in Russia. Stalin never wrote or spoke about his stay in London and most Russian witnesses to it were wiped out in his Great Terror.
Hello Kbthompson
thank you for your attention for my comments.
I understand this is not an article on the Russian revolutionaries, but this "Stalin in London" looks like an uchronia. I was so astonished I decided to register for the first time after many years of reading Wikipedia, and erased the lines ( waiting for a reaction ).
You say that there are contradictory sources about the travels of Stalin in this period. I am not surprised by a special Russian version, on this issue, as on many other.
Falsification of history was one of the specialities of the stalinist and neo-stalinist regimes, and you could find special Soviet versions of the generally admitted world history, until recently in the U.S.S.R. ( see the good old Novosti agency pamphlets of the seventies for instance).
This language <<Under the leadership of J. V. Stalin, etc./ ...leads the strikes and political struggle of the Tiflis proletariat. / The congress, to which British intelligence turned a blind eye, consolidated the supremacy of the Bolshevik party ...>> is a good example of the stalinist or neo-stalinist propaganda language.
This statement can be taken as a proof of the version I defend : << Stalin never wrote or spoke about his stay in London and most Russian witnesses to it were wiped out in his Great Terror.>>
I was just wondering why Stalin had not boasted about having been so close to the great Lenin so early, ten years before the October revolution, when he was merely a secondary leader during this event in 1917. What you found on this Russian site is a kind of response.
More probably, Stalin never wrote about this London travel, because he never went in London. (Occam's razor)
Of course, Trotsky was not a neutral observer, but you certainly can believe him when he says he was in London in 1907, and the congress was just a sort of chaos, nothing important.
Another strange issue is a Joseph Dzhugashvili traveling under his real name in England when he was theoretically on the lists of all the polices. The European countries polices were not less efficient than today, and a similar congress in the People House in Brussels had been previously forbidden. So, the "marvelous Georgian" was touring incognito in London ? Or, maybe as an agent ?
The usual Western university history says that Trotsky was the great man of the 1905 Petrograd soviet, and, from 1917 to 1924, the number two of the revolution; that Stalin became a real big leader during the civil war, after the Brest-Litosk treaty (1918). Maybe Russian non historian or nationalist sources do not agree with this story.
What are these Russian sites ? I had a look on [
http://www.stel.ru/stalin/Russia_in_World_War_1912-1916.htm] (example) This is a full Stalin fan club site, not a serious reference !
bye bye Ttotto
I am puzzled by the assertion at the start of the history section that there was a 'relocation of the ruling court and national political epicentre to Westminster'. As far as I know Westminster was the seat of power in London since at least the time of Canute. Could you provide a reference for this claim? PoochieR ( talk) 09:15, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Was Minder (TV series) set in the East End? If so it could be mentioned in the TV section. PiCo ( talk) 12:19, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Sorry to nitpick about an excellent article, but I notice another instance of a link of the text "London docks" to the article London Docks. This is confusing to the casual reader since the East End article refers to the London docks closing in the 1980s (which is true when using the term London docks in the broad sense to mean "the enclosed docks of the upstream part of the Port of London within the area of London Docklands", but the London Docks article to which it links says that they closed in 1969 (which is also true). Taking the article's tight definition of the East End to exclude the Isle of Dogs and all points east, the East End docks all closed in the 60s. Perhaps 'local docks' or something similar might be better? Pterre ( talk) 15:39, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
During the last two days, this was deleted. Should it have been?: " Leon Trotsky, Joseph Stalin and Vladimir Lenin all attended meetings of the socialist newspaper Iskra in 1903; three years later they met in a warehouse in Whitechapel to plot the October Revolution."
Also, the External Link to the "Jewish East End" site was deleted (see Feb. 22 state of the article). Should it have been? All the best, -- Ssilvers ( talk) 19:26, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
That's a very, very strange statement to make - anyone who lives or works in East London or London in general (especially in working class areas) is likely to disagree with it. Some Cockney features are certainly less likely to be found in the speech of youngsters but the sentence should be corrected to reflect that. If anything, things such as th-fronting, the dropping of Hs and the glottalised T, have become more common, the only speech features which seem to be in decline are the changes in the way certain vowels are pronounced. Sorry to complain, /Rant over. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Makist ( talk • contribs) 21:27, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
This reads wrong. I assume the 57 nights occurred at some point within those two dates but it sounds like the writer of the sentence made a math error. Could a knowledgeable person rephrase suitably? Tempshill ( talk) 23:45, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
The second sentence here reads:
“Use of the term began…
…and arose…
…which led to extreme overcrowding…”
I’m sure that’s not what is meant so I’ve changed it.
Swanny18 (
talk)
11:15, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Also, I’m not clear from this why the term “East End” is significant; I know the area has a particular identity, and East-Enders see themselves as a particular community, but it really isn’t clear from this. Any ideas? Swanny18 ( talk) 11:17, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree that a term cannot "begin" AND "arise". That sounded like two separate events. I put a quick fix on the sentence. I also agree that "arise" is a funny word to use, even if a source uses it. How about "popularise" or "spread"? Suggestion: "Use of the term, coined in the late 19th century, spread with rapid growth of the area." -- Ssilvers ( talk) 16:40, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
I clarified that it is a pejorative term, but a term cannot "begin" and also "arise". See if the new sentence works. If not, feel free to rewrite without using "began" and "arose" in the same sentence. -- Ssilvers ( talk) 05:58, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Oh dear, it looks like it's me that wasn't being clear.
My first point was only that it wasn’t the use of the term that caused the unemployment, which is how it was reading, and I thought I'd fixed that.
My second was that the article starts by saying:
“.. the "East End"... is the area of London east of...the City of London...although it is not defined by universally accepted formal boundaries”.
Which raises the question, so why is it significant? It sounds like it’s merely a geographic abstraction.
I would have thought the answer was that the “East End”, wherever it actually is , has a particular character, and “East-Enders”, whoever that includes, are a recognizeable type (stereotype?). A sentence on that was what I thought was needed, somewhere in the opening; though I didn’t feel qualified to write it, not being an East-Ender.
Swanny18 (
talk)
18:10, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
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In view of the length of the main article, I'm considering splitting off the section In popular culture to a new article East End of London in popular culture - a copy of the introduction would remain here, but the three sections would be moved in their entirety. Any thoughts, objections? Kbthompson ( talk) 12:05, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
According to the boundaries defined at length earlier in the article, the Olympic Park is not in the East End, so why is it included? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Peteste ( talk • contribs) 22:20, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
Is it NPOV to say local authority harassment? In one sense there is a reference so it is substantiated, but I still think something more neutral like "attempts by the local authority to stop it" would be more NPOV. SimonTrew ( talk) 20:45, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
there is nothing much about how Bangladeshis have influenced the East End, the history of racial hatred against them, establishment of Sylheti-owned Indian restaurants and such many more. I clearly do not think this article is complete without these informations, even though they are an immigrant ethnic community, but however thriving and well established in the East End especially in Spitalfields, Whitechapel (Tower Hamlets area). History of Bangladeshis in the United Kingdom may help, or British Bangladeshi can also. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.194.14.119 ( talk) 23:07, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
My family are all east end cor blimey luv a duck etc. and I would actually like a sec on the sally army to slot into around about the 1930sish-- it was incredibly strong during the Great Depression. But I have to do my research first. SimonTrew ( talk) 03:02, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
I think there should be some mention or an article about 59 Brick Lane. This one of the famous historical buildings in the capital, and I believe an article should be available, which is an important part of the East End of London. This building was home to successive immigrant communities in the East End, a former Protestant Church, A Jewish Chapel, a Methodist Church, a Jewish synagogue and today a Mosque, ethnically to the French, Jews and Bangladeshis. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.211.185.85 ( talk) 12:33, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
Hi All, KBthompson, SimonTrew, IP people and anyone else
great article! But did notice one sentence in the crime section that came over a bit odd
"...Unlike the former constables, the police were recruited widely and so were initially disliked"
I imagine that i understand the meaning of the sentence reasonably well, but exactly why the wide recruitment meant that the police force were initially disliked is not necessarily clear from that statement
eg. Why is 'dislike' percieved to be the natural response. I think that the sentence needs a 'because' and v. brief explanation as to why they were initially disliked.
Anyway, great article - the bit that i have mentioned is not a major part of it, and may come across as nit-picking in the greater scheme of things - Well done all
Darigan (
talk)
12:56, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
Is it really known vernacularly as "the East End", or is it just known as "the East End"? I think the self-appointed grammatical pomp of some Wikipedia contributors leads them to assume that because something seems to be a contraction, that that contraction exists and is somehow false. No one ever calls the East End 'the East End of London' except to differentiate it from other 'East Ends'. There is no 'official full name', the only name is the East end - just as the West end is the West end.
When people say "the East end" they are not being more vernacular, they are just being less specific. When people say "the East end of London" they are not being more formal or more 'proper' or 'official' or using its 'proper name' - they are just being more specific. It doesn't have a proper name, and there is no formal terminology, therefore there can be no 'vernacular'. You could be even more specific and say "the East end of London, England" or "the East end of London, England, Great Britain, United Kingdom etc etc". Just as you could be less specific and just say "east" - as in "I'm going east" (which can mean "I'm heading in an easterly direction by the compass" but which can also mean in London "I'm going to east London"
This, I think, is one of those gestures toward sounding 'more academic' or 'more smart' that I think Wikipedia contributors sometimes fall foul to.
94.193.101.49 ( talk) 11:18, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
There is a claim that the rise of the Labour Party and the enfranchisement of women were somehow created (and implicitly linked) in the East End. The Labour Party was not particularly involved, having refused Pankhurst membership because she was a woman, and the Liberal Party give partial franchise in 1918 (or 1919), followed by equalisation of franchise in 1930 (Stanley Baldwin, Conservative). Wee Jimmy ( talk) 18:27, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
Its "goath"? tomasz. 07:53, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
The article quotes an 1888 publication as saying "[The] invention about 1880 of the term 'East End'", but the term appears frequently in literature predating 1880. For instance:
From 1862:
"The antipodes to the fashionable world is Petticoat Lane... It is to the East End what Regent Street is to the West." (The Criminal Prisons of London and Scenes of Prison Life, Mayhew and Binny, pg 47.)
Mayhew and Binny style it differently when referring to direction: "the very east-end of the town" (pg 59).
From 1870:
"Pleasure gardens and dancing rooms in the East and West End of London" (Prostitution, William Acton, Table of Contents.)
"...in the West End of London. In the East End and over the water..." (pg 16).
"Some shades of prostitution unknown to the more fashionable West are to be discerned in the East End of London." (pg 22).
"...to the "young man" of the East-end warehouse..." (pg 41).
Those are but a couple examples. Others are easily found by Googling. Now I don't want to mess with so distinguished an article, but the term "East End" certainly seems to have had a much earlier birth than suggested and perhaps that portion of the quotation ought to be removed or at least flagged as inaccurate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Poluistor~enwiki ( talk • contribs) 19:24, 25 July 2014
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One book that may be helpful to add to the further reading section is Forty Years of Scotland Yard, as the majority of it talks about his experiences with the East End. 69.73.22.22 ( talk) 17:47, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
This article no longer meets Wikipedia:Featured article criteria. There are unsourced paragraphs, unsourced statements, unattributed quotes, weasel words without attribution, a section consisting largely of quotes, inconsistent citation styles and short, stubby paragraphs that do not meet the prose criterion. DrKay ( talk) 14:08, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I presume this has been moved from East End to make way for a disambiguation page. If that's the case, I suggest East End of London as a better title here -- it will link naturally in text. -- Tarquin
Can anyone explain why the Gordon Riots are labelled "racist" if they were against Roman Catholicism?
The East End has always been one of the poorest areas of London While I agree the geographical boundaries have always been fuzzy; the term 'East End' itself seems to have been introduced in about 1888 (see "Fishman: East End 1888", an excellent source by a local academic & historian) It should also be noted that in tudor times many palaces and rich estates were located in the East End; it's decline as a political centre did not occur until the rising importance of the palace of Westminster, when the locus shifted west ward. Kbthompson 15:13, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
OK, I added a lengthy 'contemporary' quote at the beginning, I think (like Fishman) it says it all, however, others might want to bring it down to a sentence, and quote the reference. Kbthompson 13:33, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
In my own defence, I did note that. I've now moved it into a separate section. I think it's a good quote, as it both notes the first use, and gives something of the flavour of what was intended by it. In this edit, I added copyhold, matchgirls strike and revised some of the text. I hope the changes meet with approval. Kbthompson 16:10, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Practically, perfect in every way (... Mary Poppins) ... My resolution, was clumsy. I added geo Essex to the note about Newham and Redbridge. I'm thinking there's a point to be made also about the 'East End' today, being 'in the head', and extending with the diaspora as far as places like the Isle of Grain (in Kent) - where I stumbled upon an East End night (including cockney songs, eels, pies and the whole caboodle). Oh, and making a comparison with 'cockneys' who were essentially residents of the city Need also to note, in Medieval times, much of the land around the river was marsh; so Ratcliffe and Wapping were easier to get to by boat, than by the single dangerous road across the marsh. For the same reason North Woolwich was in Kent until about 1902! Kbthompson 18:40, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Interesting, I knew of the 'red cliffe', but roman road, where did it go? The Ratcliffe Highway was much of the modern Cable St, I think. Surely, it just got into a corner of the river lee and thames, or even modern wapping - was there a roman port there? I've walked the 'wall' from tower bridge to canary wharf, much of this was created in the middle ages and maintained by the church - with windmills on! Modern wharehouse style appartment blocks sit across this now; but it can still be seen at places like Wapping steps. I thought much of the land behind was just marsh, but you're right about Ratcliffe Hw, maybe that was the sole road? Thinking about it, there is a very step drop down to the river from St George's in the East. Kbthompson 22:52, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Things for specific localities should go on the specific pages; Ratcliff itself looks very stubby at the moment, there's a lot more to say about the area - including some of your local colour. It would be appropriate here to give a flavour of the whole area in Roman times - perhaps some of the history of the tower (as it's not a part of the city of london). You appear to keep very odd hours! Kbthompson 15:12, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
I certainly see what you mean. A lot of amorphous facts. In writing these articles, one really needs to have a clear story in mind, one that is 'encyclopedically' important. Much of what is there could have been abstracted from a Gazetter. Maybe the tactic for the moment is to incorporate both Cable Street and the Ratcliffe as sections into the Wapping page; create a 'Cable Street, Battle of' page if one doesn't exist - it must do ... as it stands at the moment, there's a lot of duplication between the various pages, and none of them tell a consistent tale about the development of the area. That's my pennyworth! Kbthompson 12:28, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Also, this article now seems to be pretty firm on when the term East End came into use: was the term West End already in use by this stage? It was I suppose an analogous usage. Morwen - Talk 11:05, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Looking at the google books search, prior to 1880, it seems to bring up the phrase 'the east end of London', after you get refs to the 'East End' (capitals, and no qualifier). I think this is what Freeman and Palmer are on about. I wonder what it does for 'West End'? I wrote the promised para on radicals - it probably needs to be translated into english - and a bit on downstream developments. I tried looking up the Metropolitan Building Acts, and the only ones I found were actually related to construction to prevent fire - including the max volume a building could be to allow a fire to be put out! I think MRSC got me back, as it were ... I have no electrickery tomorrow, so shall be silent for a while (not sulking). Kbthompson 18:19, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Surely our work here is not done? 8^) East Ham looks a good candidate for a rewrite! Some mention should be made here of early immigrant communities - chinese in Limehouse, asian and black sailors in Ratcliffe. All connected with the sea. Kbthompson 19:43, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Come to think of it, the City of London is a definite western boundary and the River Thames is a physical southern boundary. Should this go in the intro? MRSC • Talk 18:39, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
If I remember correctly London over the Border was an ecclesastical term, not administrative?
Prior to the formation of the LCC (London County Council) the area east of the city and west of the Lee/Lea (both spellings are used) was part of Middlesex and east of the Lee was Essex (with the exception of the anomalous North Woolwich). When the LCC was formed in the late 1800s, the boundary was the Lea (except, again, for North Woolwich) West Ham became a County Borough roughly equivalent to today's unitary authorities; i.e. a separate independant administrative body. East Ham followed suit in 1916 and the London boundary remained the Lea until the formation of the GLC when East and West Ham and North Woolwich were merged into Newham. A point to note is that the public records of both County Boroughs upto 1965 were sent to, and are held at Essex record office.
At one time one of the more optomistic local politicians campaigned for West Ham County Borough to become the County Town of Essex! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.31.111.163 ( talk • contribs)
Overall, this article is very well written, includes useful, fair-use images, and informative. The citations are sufficient, although there are still a few minor gaps where citations should be added (first part of history section, population, and today), but serious issues with citations. The one sentence that really does need a reference is, "With rising costs elsewhere in the capital, the East End has become a desirable place for business." -- but I won't hold up GA status for this statement. Other than that, looks good! Dr. Cash 19:34, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
It's already extensively referenced in the article. The Victoria County History online is in copyright, because the online version was created in 2002 - although some elements of the text version are out of copyright. Volume 11 is mainly 1960s, so remains in copyright for a few more years. It's best to paraphrase since here we are creating an article that introduces the important elements, and provide the background for readers to examine the full text if they're interested. Kbthompson 12:40, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force in an effort to ensure all listed Good articles continue to meet the Good article criteria. In reviewing the article, I have found there are some issues that may need to be addressed.
I will check back in no less than seven days. If progress is being made and issues are addressed, the article will remain listed as a Good article. Otherwise, it may be delisted (such a decision may be challenged through WP:GA/R). If improved after it has been delisted, it may be nominated at WP:GAC. Feel free to drop a message on my talk page if you have any questions. Regards, Epbr123 09:31, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force. I believe the article currently meets the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. The article history has been updated to reflect this review. Regards, Epbr123 21:47, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
I am working my way through and copy editing. I hope this is useful.
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BetacommandBot ( talk) 04:41, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Mainpage in 12 hours, and there are no publishers on citations (I hope they are all reliable sources, since it doesn't appear anyone reviewed for that at FAC). I also noticed WP:DASH issues throughout, example: Limehouse is also the scene of the Fu Manchu films - based on Sax Rohmer's novels. I haven't checked other issues: anyone around to begin cleanup before tomorrow? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 14:49, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Text erased
Leon Trotsky, Joseph Stalin and Vladimir Lenin ... plot the October Revolution.
I erased these lines for :
1/ It is a well known fact that Stalin never travelled out of the Russian Empire. 2/ In 1906, nobody could "plot the 1917 October Revolution". 3/ Iskra was a newspaper, not a party. The wikipedia page about the Russian Social-Democratic Party tells that the 1903 meeting was in Belgium.
I do not know when and were Trotsky and Lenin have been in the London East End, but certainly it is possible to find it.
ttotto 23 February 2008
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Ttotto ( talk • contribs) 05:40, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
I know it's not the 'done thing' for this kind of comment on a Talk page but I wanted to congratulate the editors on what is a truly stunning article. Dick G ( talk) 06:17, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
East End 260207
I maintain what I said some days ago.
Stalin could not be in Whitechapel in 1906, as he never left Russia (or the U.S.S.R.) before 1943, when he met Churchill and Roosevelt at the Tehran conference. In the years 1900, Stalin was almost unknown by Russian socialists. His activity was intermediate between banditry and revolutionary action in Baku, Azerbaijan. There are some evidences he was actually during this period an Okhrana agent. This part of his life is explained in the Wikipedia Stalin page.
I do not have the time to check for exact references, but it is possible to refer to the Trotsky memories (My life), or to Lenin writings. My sources are historians I read in the years eighty. I never read that Stalin was a delegate in any congress in western Europe. What is your source for this assumption ? (Stalin, then known as Joseph Djugashvili, stayed in Tower House, a hostel for itinerant workers near the London Hospital, for two weeks, paying sixpence a night for a cubicle. He was the delegate from Tbilisi.) This is something new.
Lenin wrote he met Stalin for the first time in 1917 in Petrograd. He called him the marvelous Georgian. This is during this period (the Kerensky government) that there was a plot for an October revolution.
In december 1905 Trotsky was arrested in Petrograd and spent the 1906 year in jail. He escaped in january 1907 and travelled once again to London.
This story is explained in the Wikipedia Trotsky page.
In My life Trotsky mention a party congress in London in 1907. He say he met Maxim Gorky and Rosa Luxemburg.
Trotsky told about Stalin in another book about his policy (Stalin) as a philistine, ignorant in foreign languages, and this is obviously what he was. He was not exactly a globe-trotter. He travelled out of Russia once to Tehran (1943), and once to Potsdam (1945).
Trotsky My Life, extracts: Trotsky My Life @ http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1930/mylife/index.htm
CHAPTER XVI
MY SECOND FOREIGN EXILE: GERMAN SOCIALISM
The party congress of 1907 held its meetings in a socialist church in London. It was a protracted,crowded, stormy, and chaotic congress. ... On one of the first days of the congress, I was stopped in the church vestibule by a tall, angular man with a round face and high cheek-bones, who wore a round hat. “I am your admirer,” he said, with an amiable chuckle. “Admirer?” I echoed in astonishment. It seemed that the compliment referred to my political pamphlets that had been written in prison. My interlocutor was Maxim Gorky, and this was the first time I ever saw him. ... At the London congress I renewed acquaintance with Rosa Luxemburg, whom I had known since 1904.
This page about the East End is great and should not be weakened with an erroneous statement.
I did not change the page. It has been changed many times today, and I suppose Kbthompson had a heavy work after my deletion.
Ttotto —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ttotto ( talk • contribs) 20:13, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
1898-1900, Under the leadership of J. V. Stalin, V. Z. Ketskhoveli and A. G. Tsulukidze, a central leading group is formed within the Tiflis organization of the RSDLP, which passes from propaganda in study circles to mass political agitation. The group organizes the printing of manifestoes and their distribution among the workers, forms underground Social-Democratic circles, and leads the strikes and political struggle of the Tiflis proletariat.
In 1907, On returning from the Fifth ("London") Congress of the RSDLP, J. V. Stalin visits Baku and Tiflis and delivers reports on the congress at meetings of the Social-Democratic organizations of Baku, Tiflis and a number of districts in Western Georgia.
In the cited reference in the article, it states
... Stalin, then Joseph Djugashvili, spent a fortnight there in a sixpence-a-night cubicle when he attended the Fifth Congress of the Russian Social Democratic and Labour Party across the road in Whitechapel. Lenin, meanwhile, preferred to commute from Bloomsbury where he could also visit the British Museum. The congress, to which British intelligence turned a blind eye, consolidated the supremacy of the Bolshevik party and debated strategy for communist revolution in Russia. Stalin never wrote or spoke about his stay in London and most Russian witnesses to it were wiped out in his Great Terror.
Hello Kbthompson
thank you for your attention for my comments.
I understand this is not an article on the Russian revolutionaries, but this "Stalin in London" looks like an uchronia. I was so astonished I decided to register for the first time after many years of reading Wikipedia, and erased the lines ( waiting for a reaction ).
You say that there are contradictory sources about the travels of Stalin in this period. I am not surprised by a special Russian version, on this issue, as on many other.
Falsification of history was one of the specialities of the stalinist and neo-stalinist regimes, and you could find special Soviet versions of the generally admitted world history, until recently in the U.S.S.R. ( see the good old Novosti agency pamphlets of the seventies for instance).
This language <<Under the leadership of J. V. Stalin, etc./ ...leads the strikes and political struggle of the Tiflis proletariat. / The congress, to which British intelligence turned a blind eye, consolidated the supremacy of the Bolshevik party ...>> is a good example of the stalinist or neo-stalinist propaganda language.
This statement can be taken as a proof of the version I defend : << Stalin never wrote or spoke about his stay in London and most Russian witnesses to it were wiped out in his Great Terror.>>
I was just wondering why Stalin had not boasted about having been so close to the great Lenin so early, ten years before the October revolution, when he was merely a secondary leader during this event in 1917. What you found on this Russian site is a kind of response.
More probably, Stalin never wrote about this London travel, because he never went in London. (Occam's razor)
Of course, Trotsky was not a neutral observer, but you certainly can believe him when he says he was in London in 1907, and the congress was just a sort of chaos, nothing important.
Another strange issue is a Joseph Dzhugashvili traveling under his real name in England when he was theoretically on the lists of all the polices. The European countries polices were not less efficient than today, and a similar congress in the People House in Brussels had been previously forbidden. So, the "marvelous Georgian" was touring incognito in London ? Or, maybe as an agent ?
The usual Western university history says that Trotsky was the great man of the 1905 Petrograd soviet, and, from 1917 to 1924, the number two of the revolution; that Stalin became a real big leader during the civil war, after the Brest-Litosk treaty (1918). Maybe Russian non historian or nationalist sources do not agree with this story.
What are these Russian sites ? I had a look on [
http://www.stel.ru/stalin/Russia_in_World_War_1912-1916.htm] (example) This is a full Stalin fan club site, not a serious reference !
bye bye Ttotto
I am puzzled by the assertion at the start of the history section that there was a 'relocation of the ruling court and national political epicentre to Westminster'. As far as I know Westminster was the seat of power in London since at least the time of Canute. Could you provide a reference for this claim? PoochieR ( talk) 09:15, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Was Minder (TV series) set in the East End? If so it could be mentioned in the TV section. PiCo ( talk) 12:19, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Sorry to nitpick about an excellent article, but I notice another instance of a link of the text "London docks" to the article London Docks. This is confusing to the casual reader since the East End article refers to the London docks closing in the 1980s (which is true when using the term London docks in the broad sense to mean "the enclosed docks of the upstream part of the Port of London within the area of London Docklands", but the London Docks article to which it links says that they closed in 1969 (which is also true). Taking the article's tight definition of the East End to exclude the Isle of Dogs and all points east, the East End docks all closed in the 60s. Perhaps 'local docks' or something similar might be better? Pterre ( talk) 15:39, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
During the last two days, this was deleted. Should it have been?: " Leon Trotsky, Joseph Stalin and Vladimir Lenin all attended meetings of the socialist newspaper Iskra in 1903; three years later they met in a warehouse in Whitechapel to plot the October Revolution."
Also, the External Link to the "Jewish East End" site was deleted (see Feb. 22 state of the article). Should it have been? All the best, -- Ssilvers ( talk) 19:26, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
That's a very, very strange statement to make - anyone who lives or works in East London or London in general (especially in working class areas) is likely to disagree with it. Some Cockney features are certainly less likely to be found in the speech of youngsters but the sentence should be corrected to reflect that. If anything, things such as th-fronting, the dropping of Hs and the glottalised T, have become more common, the only speech features which seem to be in decline are the changes in the way certain vowels are pronounced. Sorry to complain, /Rant over. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Makist ( talk • contribs) 21:27, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
This reads wrong. I assume the 57 nights occurred at some point within those two dates but it sounds like the writer of the sentence made a math error. Could a knowledgeable person rephrase suitably? Tempshill ( talk) 23:45, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
The second sentence here reads:
“Use of the term began…
…and arose…
…which led to extreme overcrowding…”
I’m sure that’s not what is meant so I’ve changed it.
Swanny18 (
talk)
11:15, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Also, I’m not clear from this why the term “East End” is significant; I know the area has a particular identity, and East-Enders see themselves as a particular community, but it really isn’t clear from this. Any ideas? Swanny18 ( talk) 11:17, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree that a term cannot "begin" AND "arise". That sounded like two separate events. I put a quick fix on the sentence. I also agree that "arise" is a funny word to use, even if a source uses it. How about "popularise" or "spread"? Suggestion: "Use of the term, coined in the late 19th century, spread with rapid growth of the area." -- Ssilvers ( talk) 16:40, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
I clarified that it is a pejorative term, but a term cannot "begin" and also "arise". See if the new sentence works. If not, feel free to rewrite without using "began" and "arose" in the same sentence. -- Ssilvers ( talk) 05:58, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Oh dear, it looks like it's me that wasn't being clear.
My first point was only that it wasn’t the use of the term that caused the unemployment, which is how it was reading, and I thought I'd fixed that.
My second was that the article starts by saying:
“.. the "East End"... is the area of London east of...the City of London...although it is not defined by universally accepted formal boundaries”.
Which raises the question, so why is it significant? It sounds like it’s merely a geographic abstraction.
I would have thought the answer was that the “East End”, wherever it actually is , has a particular character, and “East-Enders”, whoever that includes, are a recognizeable type (stereotype?). A sentence on that was what I thought was needed, somewhere in the opening; though I didn’t feel qualified to write it, not being an East-Ender.
Swanny18 (
talk)
18:10, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
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In view of the length of the main article, I'm considering splitting off the section In popular culture to a new article East End of London in popular culture - a copy of the introduction would remain here, but the three sections would be moved in their entirety. Any thoughts, objections? Kbthompson ( talk) 12:05, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
According to the boundaries defined at length earlier in the article, the Olympic Park is not in the East End, so why is it included? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Peteste ( talk • contribs) 22:20, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
Is it NPOV to say local authority harassment? In one sense there is a reference so it is substantiated, but I still think something more neutral like "attempts by the local authority to stop it" would be more NPOV. SimonTrew ( talk) 20:45, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
there is nothing much about how Bangladeshis have influenced the East End, the history of racial hatred against them, establishment of Sylheti-owned Indian restaurants and such many more. I clearly do not think this article is complete without these informations, even though they are an immigrant ethnic community, but however thriving and well established in the East End especially in Spitalfields, Whitechapel (Tower Hamlets area). History of Bangladeshis in the United Kingdom may help, or British Bangladeshi can also. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.194.14.119 ( talk) 23:07, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
My family are all east end cor blimey luv a duck etc. and I would actually like a sec on the sally army to slot into around about the 1930sish-- it was incredibly strong during the Great Depression. But I have to do my research first. SimonTrew ( talk) 03:02, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
I think there should be some mention or an article about 59 Brick Lane. This one of the famous historical buildings in the capital, and I believe an article should be available, which is an important part of the East End of London. This building was home to successive immigrant communities in the East End, a former Protestant Church, A Jewish Chapel, a Methodist Church, a Jewish synagogue and today a Mosque, ethnically to the French, Jews and Bangladeshis. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.211.185.85 ( talk) 12:33, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
Hi All, KBthompson, SimonTrew, IP people and anyone else
great article! But did notice one sentence in the crime section that came over a bit odd
"...Unlike the former constables, the police were recruited widely and so were initially disliked"
I imagine that i understand the meaning of the sentence reasonably well, but exactly why the wide recruitment meant that the police force were initially disliked is not necessarily clear from that statement
eg. Why is 'dislike' percieved to be the natural response. I think that the sentence needs a 'because' and v. brief explanation as to why they were initially disliked.
Anyway, great article - the bit that i have mentioned is not a major part of it, and may come across as nit-picking in the greater scheme of things - Well done all
Darigan (
talk)
12:56, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
Is it really known vernacularly as "the East End", or is it just known as "the East End"? I think the self-appointed grammatical pomp of some Wikipedia contributors leads them to assume that because something seems to be a contraction, that that contraction exists and is somehow false. No one ever calls the East End 'the East End of London' except to differentiate it from other 'East Ends'. There is no 'official full name', the only name is the East end - just as the West end is the West end.
When people say "the East end" they are not being more vernacular, they are just being less specific. When people say "the East end of London" they are not being more formal or more 'proper' or 'official' or using its 'proper name' - they are just being more specific. It doesn't have a proper name, and there is no formal terminology, therefore there can be no 'vernacular'. You could be even more specific and say "the East end of London, England" or "the East end of London, England, Great Britain, United Kingdom etc etc". Just as you could be less specific and just say "east" - as in "I'm going east" (which can mean "I'm heading in an easterly direction by the compass" but which can also mean in London "I'm going to east London"
This, I think, is one of those gestures toward sounding 'more academic' or 'more smart' that I think Wikipedia contributors sometimes fall foul to.
94.193.101.49 ( talk) 11:18, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
There is a claim that the rise of the Labour Party and the enfranchisement of women were somehow created (and implicitly linked) in the East End. The Labour Party was not particularly involved, having refused Pankhurst membership because she was a woman, and the Liberal Party give partial franchise in 1918 (or 1919), followed by equalisation of franchise in 1930 (Stanley Baldwin, Conservative). Wee Jimmy ( talk) 18:27, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
Its "goath"? tomasz. 07:53, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
The article quotes an 1888 publication as saying "[The] invention about 1880 of the term 'East End'", but the term appears frequently in literature predating 1880. For instance:
From 1862:
"The antipodes to the fashionable world is Petticoat Lane... It is to the East End what Regent Street is to the West." (The Criminal Prisons of London and Scenes of Prison Life, Mayhew and Binny, pg 47.)
Mayhew and Binny style it differently when referring to direction: "the very east-end of the town" (pg 59).
From 1870:
"Pleasure gardens and dancing rooms in the East and West End of London" (Prostitution, William Acton, Table of Contents.)
"...in the West End of London. In the East End and over the water..." (pg 16).
"Some shades of prostitution unknown to the more fashionable West are to be discerned in the East End of London." (pg 22).
"...to the "young man" of the East-end warehouse..." (pg 41).
Those are but a couple examples. Others are easily found by Googling. Now I don't want to mess with so distinguished an article, but the term "East End" certainly seems to have had a much earlier birth than suggested and perhaps that portion of the quotation ought to be removed or at least flagged as inaccurate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Poluistor~enwiki ( talk • contribs) 19:24, 25 July 2014
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One book that may be helpful to add to the further reading section is Forty Years of Scotland Yard, as the majority of it talks about his experiences with the East End. 69.73.22.22 ( talk) 17:47, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
This article no longer meets Wikipedia:Featured article criteria. There are unsourced paragraphs, unsourced statements, unattributed quotes, weasel words without attribution, a section consisting largely of quotes, inconsistent citation styles and short, stubby paragraphs that do not meet the prose criterion. DrKay ( talk) 14:08, 1 November 2020 (UTC)