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Earthing system article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
Should this: "the equation IL1+IL3+IL3+IN = 0 holds" be L1 L2 L3? -- Jmeden2000 23:00, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
French : terre, earth (is originally from from the Latin terra) 194.83.51.64 11:09, 16 May 2006 (UTC) John
There should be more info. about which regions prefer " earthing", " earthing system", as compared to " ground", " grounding", " grounded", " grounding system"?
This does seem extremely dependent on dialect, region, neighborhood.
Then there is " earthling".
hopiakuta ; [[ <nowiki> </nowiki> { [[%c2%a1]] [[%c2%bf]] [[ %7e%7e%7e%7e ]] } ;]] 22:25, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Why doesn't someone merge the two articles earthing system and ground_(electricity) then, and put all variants and redirects in the same article? Doseiai2 ( talk) 09:28, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
The IT Network diagram is missing the neutral conductor. 142.59.176.154 19:56, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
"A protective earth (PE) connection ensures that all exposed conductive surfaces are at the same electrical potential as the surface of the Earth,"
The UK uses a PE connection yet lots of exposed conductive surfaces are not connected to it.
"TN networks save the cost of a low-impedance earth connection at the site of each consumer. Such a connection (a buried metal structure) is required to provide protective earth in IT and TT systems."
Portable generator IT systems routinely have no earth and no RCD. Tabby ( talk) 00:55, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Can any one tell why a capacitor is used in earthing circuit?
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.115.103.71 ( talk) 13:54, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
In the phrase "hazardous IR voltage drops" what does "IR" mean? It does not seem to occur anywhere else in this article. 138.251.194.28 ( talk) 11:41, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
Is this system still relevant? It is a variation of TN system, having kind of LPEN conductor. -- 87.100.136.59 ( talk) 22:04, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
There was a change in a reference. The reference should not be changed for two reasons. First, the reference list should show the works that were actually used to write the article. Unless the article is changed, there is no reason to change the reference list. Other interesting works that were not used to write the work could be put under an External links or Further reading heading.
Second, the first work was under the control of an author and publisher, and was probably a reliable source. The replacement work is a wiki, and should not be cited, just as Wikipedia should not be cited. (See WP:IRS.) Jc3s5h ( talk) 14:44, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
I follow what you're saying here, but I am still a little surprised to have a finger waved at me like this. I'm not interested in adding a book to the list. That's not my intention. I just saw the source listed there and noticed it was hosted by a commercial website. Personally, I always use neutral sources and I do lots of work in reducing spam. Well, I decided I would replace this commercial link with something more neutral. I did take a look at who put the www.tlc-direct.co.uk link in the article (the one I replaced) and it's Markus Kuhn and he's the primary contributor to this article. So I'm convinced that the link wasn't put there by some drive-by spammer. Anyway, I'll catch you later. Dawnseeker2000 03:54, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
Early in the article the MEN is described as similar to a TN-C-S. Agreed. But then in the comparison table, the Risk of broken neutral is listed as High for TN-C-S and No for MEN. This doesn't sound right at all. As suggested earlier in the article, the multiple earthing points in a MEN system does provide a backup path for return current in the case of a broken PEN conductor (on the supply side not the neutral on the consumer side!), a risk certainly still exists. Any suggestions for a clarification? LightYear ( talk) 23:46, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
MEN and TN-C-S is also used in germany (required) at least since 1977. Also see DIN VDE 0100. No device is connected at the TN-C-Part of the network, this is cmpletely underground or high above in the air. which means anybody can just get in contact with the safe TN-S-Part of the system, while the TN-C-Part is in practice unreachable. Which eliminates safety differences to the TN-S System. I guess it is the same in Australia, New Zealand, Israel. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.25.187.119 ( talk) 15:11, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
The table shows no earth electrode at site required for TN-C-S Australian wiring rules AS3000 Clause 5.1.3 Under the (TN-C-S) MEN system the neutral conductor is earthed, at source, at regular intervals, and at each electrical installation? Cotsabaca ( talk) 10:09, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
"Sky Voltage" - please include a reference as this seems very dubious. 5/Nov/2015
Well, this "Direct connection to neutral at the origin of installation" is not an IEC terminology. IEC says that direct connection to the earthed point of the power system. I admit that regularly the neutral is the earthed point but it is not a certainty. IEC wanted to phrase it in the most possible most general way. Sztrogoff ( talk) 10:02, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
In safety terms, the TT is the best. So the following report says (page 19)
-- 82.21.82.111 ( talk) 15:29, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
@
Md iet: Please read
High voltage#definition: use of terms "medium voltage" and "high voltage" depends on context. As that article says, one definition comes from system engineering: In electric power transmission engineering, high voltage is usually considered any voltage over approximately 35,000 volts. This is a classification based on the design of apparatus and insulation.
Further, IEEE Std. 100<ref> ([https://books.google.com/books/about/The_IEEE_Standard_Dictionary_of_Electric.html?id=6FbxAAAAMAAJ&redir_esc=y Standard dictionary of Electrical and Electronics terms]</ref>, as well as ANSI C84.1,<ref name="Short2005">{{cite book|author=Thomas Allen Short|title=Electric Power Distribution Equipment and Systems|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=S3jLBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA234|date=29 November 2005|publisher=CRC Press|isbn=978-1-4200-3647-3|pages=234–}}</ref> defines medium voltage as "any nominal voltage greater than 1 kV and less than 100 kV." Our article also acknowledges a different definition which comes from safety point of view: The International Electrotechnical Commission and its national counterparts (IET, IEEE, VDE, etc.) define high voltage as above 1000 V for alternating current, [...] This is in the context of building wiring and the safety of electrical apparatus.
Now, since this article covers both safety and engineering aspects, either approach can be used, but please don't just go ahead and do as you please, leaving odd phrases like "high voltage systems (1 to 72.5 kV)" which are simply misleading and inaccurate. I fixed the article for now, using "your way". No such user ( talk) 07:38, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
I know Wikipedia is not a reliable source but it would still be helpful if—somewhere on or linkable from this page—we had a country-by-country list of the grounding regulations. The US seems to require an 8 foot deep spike while France seems to be fine with one 1 or 1.5 m deep. — LlywelynII 02:11, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
The best electrical earthing work depends on the depth of water level, if the water level of depth is 3 to 4 meters deep then the value of earthing can be up to 1 OHM 92.97.10.226 ( talk) 06:08, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
In the subsection Equipment grounding, under the section Purposes, it seems what the current text is referring to is what’s actually called “neutral-to-case bonding” and “equipment bonding”. There’s no grounding/earthing involved. It’s used to provide a low-impedance path to clear line-to-case faults with the short-circuit protection of OCPDs (breakers and fuses), in TN-C-S and TN-C grounding/earthing arrangements like the US; see section 250.4(A)(5) of the 2020 NEC.
Also, although the NEC doesn’t define “equipment grounding” in article 100, section 250.4(A)(2) is called “grounding of electrical equipment” and pretty much defined it: “Normally non-current-carrying conductive materials enclosing electrical conductors or equipment, or forming part of such equipment, shall be connected to earth so as to limit the voltage to ground on these materials.” Thus, the usage of the term “equipment grounding” in this Wikipedia article is incorrect.
So, I suggest to change the current name “Equipment grounding” to something else like “Neutral-to-case bonding.”
By the way I’m not inventing this term. It’s used by Mike Holt, for example; see https://www.ecmweb.com/content/article/20892808/the-key-to-making-proper-neutraltocase-connections. Alej27 ( talk) 14:21, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
NEC 2017 Article 100, "Neutral Conductor" states "The conductor connected to the neutral point of a system that is intended to carry current under normal conditions." [1] So it is wrong to say that the case is connected to the neutral wire; the case is connected to the "Grounding Conductor, Equipment (ECG)" defined in the same article as "The conductive path(s) that provides a ground-fault current path and connects normally non-current-carrying metal parts of equipment together and to the system grounded conductor or to the grounding electrode conductor, or both. Informational Note No. 1: It is recognized that the equipment grounding conductor also performs bonding."
(C) Main Bonding Jumper. For a grounded system, an unspliced main bonding jumper shall be used to connect the equipment grounding conductor(s) and the service-disconnect enclosure to the grounded conductor [neutral wire] within the enclosure for each service disconnect in accordance with 250.28.
References
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Earthing system article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
Should this: "the equation IL1+IL3+IL3+IN = 0 holds" be L1 L2 L3? -- Jmeden2000 23:00, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
French : terre, earth (is originally from from the Latin terra) 194.83.51.64 11:09, 16 May 2006 (UTC) John
There should be more info. about which regions prefer " earthing", " earthing system", as compared to " ground", " grounding", " grounded", " grounding system"?
This does seem extremely dependent on dialect, region, neighborhood.
Then there is " earthling".
hopiakuta ; [[ <nowiki> </nowiki> { [[%c2%a1]] [[%c2%bf]] [[ %7e%7e%7e%7e ]] } ;]] 22:25, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Why doesn't someone merge the two articles earthing system and ground_(electricity) then, and put all variants and redirects in the same article? Doseiai2 ( talk) 09:28, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
The IT Network diagram is missing the neutral conductor. 142.59.176.154 19:56, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
"A protective earth (PE) connection ensures that all exposed conductive surfaces are at the same electrical potential as the surface of the Earth,"
The UK uses a PE connection yet lots of exposed conductive surfaces are not connected to it.
"TN networks save the cost of a low-impedance earth connection at the site of each consumer. Such a connection (a buried metal structure) is required to provide protective earth in IT and TT systems."
Portable generator IT systems routinely have no earth and no RCD. Tabby ( talk) 00:55, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Can any one tell why a capacitor is used in earthing circuit?
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.115.103.71 ( talk) 13:54, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
In the phrase "hazardous IR voltage drops" what does "IR" mean? It does not seem to occur anywhere else in this article. 138.251.194.28 ( talk) 11:41, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
Is this system still relevant? It is a variation of TN system, having kind of LPEN conductor. -- 87.100.136.59 ( talk) 22:04, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
There was a change in a reference. The reference should not be changed for two reasons. First, the reference list should show the works that were actually used to write the article. Unless the article is changed, there is no reason to change the reference list. Other interesting works that were not used to write the work could be put under an External links or Further reading heading.
Second, the first work was under the control of an author and publisher, and was probably a reliable source. The replacement work is a wiki, and should not be cited, just as Wikipedia should not be cited. (See WP:IRS.) Jc3s5h ( talk) 14:44, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
I follow what you're saying here, but I am still a little surprised to have a finger waved at me like this. I'm not interested in adding a book to the list. That's not my intention. I just saw the source listed there and noticed it was hosted by a commercial website. Personally, I always use neutral sources and I do lots of work in reducing spam. Well, I decided I would replace this commercial link with something more neutral. I did take a look at who put the www.tlc-direct.co.uk link in the article (the one I replaced) and it's Markus Kuhn and he's the primary contributor to this article. So I'm convinced that the link wasn't put there by some drive-by spammer. Anyway, I'll catch you later. Dawnseeker2000 03:54, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
Early in the article the MEN is described as similar to a TN-C-S. Agreed. But then in the comparison table, the Risk of broken neutral is listed as High for TN-C-S and No for MEN. This doesn't sound right at all. As suggested earlier in the article, the multiple earthing points in a MEN system does provide a backup path for return current in the case of a broken PEN conductor (on the supply side not the neutral on the consumer side!), a risk certainly still exists. Any suggestions for a clarification? LightYear ( talk) 23:46, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
MEN and TN-C-S is also used in germany (required) at least since 1977. Also see DIN VDE 0100. No device is connected at the TN-C-Part of the network, this is cmpletely underground or high above in the air. which means anybody can just get in contact with the safe TN-S-Part of the system, while the TN-C-Part is in practice unreachable. Which eliminates safety differences to the TN-S System. I guess it is the same in Australia, New Zealand, Israel. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.25.187.119 ( talk) 15:11, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
The table shows no earth electrode at site required for TN-C-S Australian wiring rules AS3000 Clause 5.1.3 Under the (TN-C-S) MEN system the neutral conductor is earthed, at source, at regular intervals, and at each electrical installation? Cotsabaca ( talk) 10:09, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
"Sky Voltage" - please include a reference as this seems very dubious. 5/Nov/2015
Well, this "Direct connection to neutral at the origin of installation" is not an IEC terminology. IEC says that direct connection to the earthed point of the power system. I admit that regularly the neutral is the earthed point but it is not a certainty. IEC wanted to phrase it in the most possible most general way. Sztrogoff ( talk) 10:02, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
In safety terms, the TT is the best. So the following report says (page 19)
-- 82.21.82.111 ( talk) 15:29, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
@
Md iet: Please read
High voltage#definition: use of terms "medium voltage" and "high voltage" depends on context. As that article says, one definition comes from system engineering: In electric power transmission engineering, high voltage is usually considered any voltage over approximately 35,000 volts. This is a classification based on the design of apparatus and insulation.
Further, IEEE Std. 100<ref> ([https://books.google.com/books/about/The_IEEE_Standard_Dictionary_of_Electric.html?id=6FbxAAAAMAAJ&redir_esc=y Standard dictionary of Electrical and Electronics terms]</ref>, as well as ANSI C84.1,<ref name="Short2005">{{cite book|author=Thomas Allen Short|title=Electric Power Distribution Equipment and Systems|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=S3jLBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA234|date=29 November 2005|publisher=CRC Press|isbn=978-1-4200-3647-3|pages=234–}}</ref> defines medium voltage as "any nominal voltage greater than 1 kV and less than 100 kV." Our article also acknowledges a different definition which comes from safety point of view: The International Electrotechnical Commission and its national counterparts (IET, IEEE, VDE, etc.) define high voltage as above 1000 V for alternating current, [...] This is in the context of building wiring and the safety of electrical apparatus.
Now, since this article covers both safety and engineering aspects, either approach can be used, but please don't just go ahead and do as you please, leaving odd phrases like "high voltage systems (1 to 72.5 kV)" which are simply misleading and inaccurate. I fixed the article for now, using "your way". No such user ( talk) 07:38, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
I know Wikipedia is not a reliable source but it would still be helpful if—somewhere on or linkable from this page—we had a country-by-country list of the grounding regulations. The US seems to require an 8 foot deep spike while France seems to be fine with one 1 or 1.5 m deep. — LlywelynII 02:11, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
The best electrical earthing work depends on the depth of water level, if the water level of depth is 3 to 4 meters deep then the value of earthing can be up to 1 OHM 92.97.10.226 ( talk) 06:08, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
In the subsection Equipment grounding, under the section Purposes, it seems what the current text is referring to is what’s actually called “neutral-to-case bonding” and “equipment bonding”. There’s no grounding/earthing involved. It’s used to provide a low-impedance path to clear line-to-case faults with the short-circuit protection of OCPDs (breakers and fuses), in TN-C-S and TN-C grounding/earthing arrangements like the US; see section 250.4(A)(5) of the 2020 NEC.
Also, although the NEC doesn’t define “equipment grounding” in article 100, section 250.4(A)(2) is called “grounding of electrical equipment” and pretty much defined it: “Normally non-current-carrying conductive materials enclosing electrical conductors or equipment, or forming part of such equipment, shall be connected to earth so as to limit the voltage to ground on these materials.” Thus, the usage of the term “equipment grounding” in this Wikipedia article is incorrect.
So, I suggest to change the current name “Equipment grounding” to something else like “Neutral-to-case bonding.”
By the way I’m not inventing this term. It’s used by Mike Holt, for example; see https://www.ecmweb.com/content/article/20892808/the-key-to-making-proper-neutraltocase-connections. Alej27 ( talk) 14:21, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
NEC 2017 Article 100, "Neutral Conductor" states "The conductor connected to the neutral point of a system that is intended to carry current under normal conditions." [1] So it is wrong to say that the case is connected to the neutral wire; the case is connected to the "Grounding Conductor, Equipment (ECG)" defined in the same article as "The conductive path(s) that provides a ground-fault current path and connects normally non-current-carrying metal parts of equipment together and to the system grounded conductor or to the grounding electrode conductor, or both. Informational Note No. 1: It is recognized that the equipment grounding conductor also performs bonding."
(C) Main Bonding Jumper. For a grounded system, an unspliced main bonding jumper shall be used to connect the equipment grounding conductor(s) and the service-disconnect enclosure to the grounded conductor [neutral wire] within the enclosure for each service disconnect in accordance with 250.28.
References