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This is a notification that articles related to Sarah Palin (broadly construed) have been placed by the community on article probation. See Talk:Sarah Palin/Article probation for details. Thanks - Kelly hi! 17:32, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
I added the undue weight tag to the library section, as i feel that this much attention to such a small thing is undue weight. We have 2 sections detailing claims about her dealings with the local library that boil down to claims by one or two people about what they claim she asked about, not even something actually happening. If a book had actually been banned, or attempted to be banned, I could see the extensive coverage, but this much weight for just what people claimed she said? Bonewah ( talk) 18:03, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
You believe the article says that she did not attempt to ban a book? It would not, and follow
WP:NPOV. Or perhaps you have evidence of such that you would like to present here to be considered for addition to the article? I welcome such information for inclusion.
However, your assessment of third party records of the testimony of witnesses as "just what people claimed she said" is a miscategorization of one of the prime examples of good material for inclusion at Wikipedia. This was not a suitable use of the Weight tag.
Anarchangel (
talk)
18:18, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
Emmons told him that year that several copies of "Pastor I Am Gay" had disappeared from the library shelves, Bess said." A far cry from what we state. Additionally, the article is simply reporting the opinion of this pastor, not a fact about Palin. I think we are way overstating things to include this, as it is simply the opinion of one man, unsupported by any facts. Bonewah ( talk) 21:11, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
- But the Frontiersman reporter who wrote that article in 1996 now says Emmons told him Palin did mention three books that she wanted removed from the shelves.
- Paul Stuart is semiretired, though he still occasionally contributes articles to a weekly paper, the Mountain Ear, in Conway, N.H., where he lives.
- Stuart told PolitiFact that in a conversation with Emmons after his article ran, she listed three titles. He said he could recall only two, and initially said they were I Told My Parents I'm Gay and I Asked My Sister. We looked for these titles; they don't appear to exist.
- "Mary Ellen told me that Palin asked her directly to remove these books from the shelves," Stuart said. "She refused."
- Asked later if the first book could have been Pastor, I am Gay, a controversial book written by a pastor who lives just outside Wasilla, Stuart said that was it.
- We can say for certain that no book was ever banned. Nor is there any record that Palin initiated a formal process to censor any books.
- "We have no records of any books being 'banned or censored' ever," Wasilla Mayor Diane M. Keller said in a statement released about the issue.
- Keller told PolitiFact that the city hasn't been able to find any minutes to substantiate that the issue was ever raised by Palin at a City Council meeting. Nor does Keller, who was a council member at the time, recall any such conversations.
- And Emmons, now Mary Ellen Baker, isn't talking.
- A message on her answering machine states: "I have nothing to add to reports from that time. I do not want to discuss the matter. Please respect my privacy.
- Kilkenny herself said she does not recall that any titles were named by Palin at the time.
- As for Kilkenny's claim, there is no proof that Palin tried to fire the librarian because she refused to consider removing books. In fact, Palin asked for the resignation of a handful of department heads to test their loyalty, according to reports at the time. The claim that Palin had specific books she wanted removed is also unsupported. Kilkenny herself said she does not recall that any titles were named by Palin at the time.
- Yes, a reporter provides a secondhand account 12 years later in which he says the librarian named books Palin wanted removed. But Stuart's recollection seems hazy (he didn't get the right title at first). The librarian isn't talking. There are no public records or meeting minutes to substantiate the claim. And no one else corroborates that Palin ever listed any titles. So we find no basis to find that part of the story true. " (emphasis mine)
Stuart said he was confident of his memory. "She may have said that but that's not how it was."
"I simply do not recall a conversation with specific titles,"
<--(OD)"It's not our job to decide which issues in a life should be reported" What?? That is totally daft. That is exactly our job, if we didnt do that, wikipedia would be an indiscriminate collection of facts. From that section "As explained in the policy introduction, merely being true, or even verifiable, does not automatically make something suitable for inclusion in the encyclopedia." And from wp:UNDUE "An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject." The opinion of one guy is not significant to this subject, and that is all this is about, the (unverified) opinion of one person, no matter how many citations you provide. Now, please stop ignoring my arguments and address my actual concerns. Bonewah ( talk) 15:07, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |accessdate=
and |date=
(
help)
It's obvious that the only reason this article was written was to to include and emphasize smears that would be quickly deleted from the main entry on Sarah Palin. As a preliminary matter, is there ANY other American politician who has separate Wikipedia entry devoted to his or her "early political career"? Of course not. The author of this piece simply wanted to promote the baseless smears regarding Palin being a book banner and rape apologist, free from peer review. It's absolutely shameful.
The garbage insinuating that Palin made victims pay for their rape kits is especially galling. There has never been evidence that a single woman was even asked to do so -- it is clear that as in countless other states, including Obama's Illinois, hospitals were simply billing insurers for procedures conducted in connection with treatment for the rape. And even Alaska's amended bill permits the kits in child-rape to be paid for by insurance, a provision specifically requested by sexual abuse victims advocates.
I'll ignore the fact that the author cites to leftist HuffPo writers whose work would never be classified as a reliable source in any other Wikipedia article. But let's look at how the author misrepresents the primary sources that he cites. He quotes Lauree Hugonin as saying that "victims" were charged, but this is her actual testimony:
LAUREE HUGONIN, DIRECTOR, ALASKA NETWORD ON DOMESTIC VIOLENCE AND SEXUAL ASSAULT (ANDVSA), JUNEAU, commented that these charges occur as a result of hospital accounting procedures. The range of costs can be from between $300- $1000 dollars. The direct charges usually result from the accounting procedures at the hospitals and not the law enforcement agencies. She noted that there has been some difficulty in Mat-Su, Anchorage, Kenai and Sitka and possibly in Bethel. She was not aware of other parts of the State where there was a problem. Ms. Hugonin advised that this problem is not on going and pervasive, but that it does occur more than sporadically.
None of this had anything to do with Palin, as the author well knows, but the careless insinuating goes on and on and on. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.193.146.146 ( talk) 23:43, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
This paragraph is baffling to me
City of Wasilla Library records indicate that there was never a request for the library to remove the book and that no books were ever censored or banned.[11] A New York Times article in 2008 mentioned the Daddy's Roommate episode, and intimated that the episode is relevant to accusations that Palin may be sympathetic to censorship.[9] The Times article was subsequently criticized by the Times' own ombudsman for presenting "confusing and incomplete" anecdotes about Palin.[12]
We start out by saying that nothing happened in Wasilla wrt the library. We then follow it up with, not what the New York Times says, but what it intimated??? Then we point out that the NYT had problems with its own article! If the NYT has a problem with it, why are we using it, and why are we repeating what they intimate? Im removing that whole section per wp:BRD at least. Bonewah ( talk) 21:30, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
The third paragraph of 'remarks about library book', is essentially a repeat of the material in the 'library matters' section. I am going to boldy remove that paragraph as redundant and move the sources here. [3] Bonewah ( talk) 19:01, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
The section HB 270 spends a lot of time discussing HB 270, rape victims, and, occasionally, Police chief Fannon. It spends very little time, however, talking about the subject of this article, Sarah Palin. Just reading this section itself, without reading the citations, I have no idea what this has to do with Palin at all. Once i read the sources, it became clear why that is, none of them explicitly say that Palin wanted to bill rape victims for their exams, which is more or less the point of HB 270 (to forbid that practice). They do say that Fannon was opposed to HB 270, but Fannon is not Palin. I would say that this is another guilt by implication, campaign season attack. No one can say that Palin opposed HB 270 so they say that Fannon did, and because Fannon was appointed by Palin, by implication, Palin must have wanted to bill rape victims for their exams. None of this stuff should be in this BLP because (at a minimum) no reliable source directly ties any of this to Palin, and, if anywhere, it should be in an article about the McCain-Palin presidential campaign, because this is no more than campaign dirt. Bonewah ( talk) 21:25, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
<- The proposals and issues here are also being discussed at Talk:Sarah Palin#Specific proposal. Comments welcome there. Bonewah ( talk) 18:21, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
The section, Stambaugh's dismissal has an excessive amount of material that is along the lines of "Stambaugh's lawsuit alledges" or "Stambaugh's suit claims" which seems like undue weight covering a lawsuit that was ultimatly dismissed. I am going to shorten this section down to the essentials while perserving the links that still work. Bonewah ( talk) 10:29, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
I hold this page, and the main Sarah Palin article, up to the light, as an example of how a dedicated team pushing a point of view can completely erase the facts, simply because there are not enough people to stop them. Wikipedia can never be a reliable source of information while editing privileges are abused in this way. The main perpetrator is Bonewah, but the others responding to him on this discussion page are equally guilty.
This is the real story, in red and yellow, that was beaten to death with sheer numbers on the Sarah Palin page, and quietly done away with in the dead of night here as well, as soon as there was no one watching
Anarchangel (
talk)
20:16, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/13/AR2008091302596.html?sid=ST2008091302649. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Dianna ( talk) 01:34, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Early political career of Sarah Palin article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
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Archives:
Index,
1Auto-archiving period: 30 days
![]() |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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![]() | This subarticle is kept separate from the main article, Sarah Palin, due to size or style considerations. |
![]() | This page is not a forum for general discussion about Early political career of Sarah Palin. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Early political career of Sarah Palin at the Reference desk. |
This is a notification that articles related to Sarah Palin (broadly construed) have been placed by the community on article probation. See Talk:Sarah Palin/Article probation for details. Thanks - Kelly hi! 17:32, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
I added the undue weight tag to the library section, as i feel that this much attention to such a small thing is undue weight. We have 2 sections detailing claims about her dealings with the local library that boil down to claims by one or two people about what they claim she asked about, not even something actually happening. If a book had actually been banned, or attempted to be banned, I could see the extensive coverage, but this much weight for just what people claimed she said? Bonewah ( talk) 18:03, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
You believe the article says that she did not attempt to ban a book? It would not, and follow
WP:NPOV. Or perhaps you have evidence of such that you would like to present here to be considered for addition to the article? I welcome such information for inclusion.
However, your assessment of third party records of the testimony of witnesses as "just what people claimed she said" is a miscategorization of one of the prime examples of good material for inclusion at Wikipedia. This was not a suitable use of the Weight tag.
Anarchangel (
talk)
18:18, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
Emmons told him that year that several copies of "Pastor I Am Gay" had disappeared from the library shelves, Bess said." A far cry from what we state. Additionally, the article is simply reporting the opinion of this pastor, not a fact about Palin. I think we are way overstating things to include this, as it is simply the opinion of one man, unsupported by any facts. Bonewah ( talk) 21:11, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
- But the Frontiersman reporter who wrote that article in 1996 now says Emmons told him Palin did mention three books that she wanted removed from the shelves.
- Paul Stuart is semiretired, though he still occasionally contributes articles to a weekly paper, the Mountain Ear, in Conway, N.H., where he lives.
- Stuart told PolitiFact that in a conversation with Emmons after his article ran, she listed three titles. He said he could recall only two, and initially said they were I Told My Parents I'm Gay and I Asked My Sister. We looked for these titles; they don't appear to exist.
- "Mary Ellen told me that Palin asked her directly to remove these books from the shelves," Stuart said. "She refused."
- Asked later if the first book could have been Pastor, I am Gay, a controversial book written by a pastor who lives just outside Wasilla, Stuart said that was it.
- We can say for certain that no book was ever banned. Nor is there any record that Palin initiated a formal process to censor any books.
- "We have no records of any books being 'banned or censored' ever," Wasilla Mayor Diane M. Keller said in a statement released about the issue.
- Keller told PolitiFact that the city hasn't been able to find any minutes to substantiate that the issue was ever raised by Palin at a City Council meeting. Nor does Keller, who was a council member at the time, recall any such conversations.
- And Emmons, now Mary Ellen Baker, isn't talking.
- A message on her answering machine states: "I have nothing to add to reports from that time. I do not want to discuss the matter. Please respect my privacy.
- Kilkenny herself said she does not recall that any titles were named by Palin at the time.
- As for Kilkenny's claim, there is no proof that Palin tried to fire the librarian because she refused to consider removing books. In fact, Palin asked for the resignation of a handful of department heads to test their loyalty, according to reports at the time. The claim that Palin had specific books she wanted removed is also unsupported. Kilkenny herself said she does not recall that any titles were named by Palin at the time.
- Yes, a reporter provides a secondhand account 12 years later in which he says the librarian named books Palin wanted removed. But Stuart's recollection seems hazy (he didn't get the right title at first). The librarian isn't talking. There are no public records or meeting minutes to substantiate the claim. And no one else corroborates that Palin ever listed any titles. So we find no basis to find that part of the story true. " (emphasis mine)
Stuart said he was confident of his memory. "She may have said that but that's not how it was."
"I simply do not recall a conversation with specific titles,"
<--(OD)"It's not our job to decide which issues in a life should be reported" What?? That is totally daft. That is exactly our job, if we didnt do that, wikipedia would be an indiscriminate collection of facts. From that section "As explained in the policy introduction, merely being true, or even verifiable, does not automatically make something suitable for inclusion in the encyclopedia." And from wp:UNDUE "An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject." The opinion of one guy is not significant to this subject, and that is all this is about, the (unverified) opinion of one person, no matter how many citations you provide. Now, please stop ignoring my arguments and address my actual concerns. Bonewah ( talk) 15:07, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |accessdate=
and |date=
(
help)
It's obvious that the only reason this article was written was to to include and emphasize smears that would be quickly deleted from the main entry on Sarah Palin. As a preliminary matter, is there ANY other American politician who has separate Wikipedia entry devoted to his or her "early political career"? Of course not. The author of this piece simply wanted to promote the baseless smears regarding Palin being a book banner and rape apologist, free from peer review. It's absolutely shameful.
The garbage insinuating that Palin made victims pay for their rape kits is especially galling. There has never been evidence that a single woman was even asked to do so -- it is clear that as in countless other states, including Obama's Illinois, hospitals were simply billing insurers for procedures conducted in connection with treatment for the rape. And even Alaska's amended bill permits the kits in child-rape to be paid for by insurance, a provision specifically requested by sexual abuse victims advocates.
I'll ignore the fact that the author cites to leftist HuffPo writers whose work would never be classified as a reliable source in any other Wikipedia article. But let's look at how the author misrepresents the primary sources that he cites. He quotes Lauree Hugonin as saying that "victims" were charged, but this is her actual testimony:
LAUREE HUGONIN, DIRECTOR, ALASKA NETWORD ON DOMESTIC VIOLENCE AND SEXUAL ASSAULT (ANDVSA), JUNEAU, commented that these charges occur as a result of hospital accounting procedures. The range of costs can be from between $300- $1000 dollars. The direct charges usually result from the accounting procedures at the hospitals and not the law enforcement agencies. She noted that there has been some difficulty in Mat-Su, Anchorage, Kenai and Sitka and possibly in Bethel. She was not aware of other parts of the State where there was a problem. Ms. Hugonin advised that this problem is not on going and pervasive, but that it does occur more than sporadically.
None of this had anything to do with Palin, as the author well knows, but the careless insinuating goes on and on and on. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.193.146.146 ( talk) 23:43, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
This paragraph is baffling to me
City of Wasilla Library records indicate that there was never a request for the library to remove the book and that no books were ever censored or banned.[11] A New York Times article in 2008 mentioned the Daddy's Roommate episode, and intimated that the episode is relevant to accusations that Palin may be sympathetic to censorship.[9] The Times article was subsequently criticized by the Times' own ombudsman for presenting "confusing and incomplete" anecdotes about Palin.[12]
We start out by saying that nothing happened in Wasilla wrt the library. We then follow it up with, not what the New York Times says, but what it intimated??? Then we point out that the NYT had problems with its own article! If the NYT has a problem with it, why are we using it, and why are we repeating what they intimate? Im removing that whole section per wp:BRD at least. Bonewah ( talk) 21:30, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
The third paragraph of 'remarks about library book', is essentially a repeat of the material in the 'library matters' section. I am going to boldy remove that paragraph as redundant and move the sources here. [3] Bonewah ( talk) 19:01, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
The section HB 270 spends a lot of time discussing HB 270, rape victims, and, occasionally, Police chief Fannon. It spends very little time, however, talking about the subject of this article, Sarah Palin. Just reading this section itself, without reading the citations, I have no idea what this has to do with Palin at all. Once i read the sources, it became clear why that is, none of them explicitly say that Palin wanted to bill rape victims for their exams, which is more or less the point of HB 270 (to forbid that practice). They do say that Fannon was opposed to HB 270, but Fannon is not Palin. I would say that this is another guilt by implication, campaign season attack. No one can say that Palin opposed HB 270 so they say that Fannon did, and because Fannon was appointed by Palin, by implication, Palin must have wanted to bill rape victims for their exams. None of this stuff should be in this BLP because (at a minimum) no reliable source directly ties any of this to Palin, and, if anywhere, it should be in an article about the McCain-Palin presidential campaign, because this is no more than campaign dirt. Bonewah ( talk) 21:25, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
<- The proposals and issues here are also being discussed at Talk:Sarah Palin#Specific proposal. Comments welcome there. Bonewah ( talk) 18:21, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
The section, Stambaugh's dismissal has an excessive amount of material that is along the lines of "Stambaugh's lawsuit alledges" or "Stambaugh's suit claims" which seems like undue weight covering a lawsuit that was ultimatly dismissed. I am going to shorten this section down to the essentials while perserving the links that still work. Bonewah ( talk) 10:29, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
I hold this page, and the main Sarah Palin article, up to the light, as an example of how a dedicated team pushing a point of view can completely erase the facts, simply because there are not enough people to stop them. Wikipedia can never be a reliable source of information while editing privileges are abused in this way. The main perpetrator is Bonewah, but the others responding to him on this discussion page are equally guilty.
This is the real story, in red and yellow, that was beaten to death with sheer numbers on the Sarah Palin page, and quietly done away with in the dead of night here as well, as soon as there was no one watching
Anarchangel (
talk)
20:16, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/13/AR2008091302596.html?sid=ST2008091302649. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Dianna ( talk) 01:34, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
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