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per my comments above I do not mind this article's title as long as it is understood that origins of Christianity redirects here. This means that there should be at least an "Origins" section detailing the "prehistory" of Christianity, i.e. the period predating the Apostolic Age, say 200 BC to 30 AD.
it is also unfortunate to cast the development of Christanity exclusively in terms of its Jewish roots, since it has "inherited" at least as much material from non-Jewish Hellenistic currents. The scope of this article, as opposed to the Early Christianity one, should clearly be to trace the evolution of this syncretism of Jewish messianism and Hellenistic mystery cults of the " Osiris-Dionysus" variety. In this sense, Christianity rather than being a simple "split off Judaism" is a "bastard child" of Asian and European religions as it could only have developed in the Roman Empire, where the cult was rooted in European paganism, but anything "oriental" (Egyptian, Chaldean, Persian, etc.) was considered extremely mysterious, in fact not unlike the status of Eastern religions in modern New Age spirituality. -- dab (𒁳) 13:48, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
Hellenistic religion obviously predates the Apostolic Age. For argument's sake, let's simplistically assume that Christianity is a syncretism of Jewish messianism, Neoplatonism and Gnosticism. All three of these have a history predating Christianity. Thus, the "Origins" section needs to discuss
all of these equally predate Christianity. Then we enter the historical developments of the 1st to 3rd centuries:
the above list would cover the main structure of a properly developed WP:SS article on the "history of early Christianity" (= "early history of Christianity") -- dab (𒁳) 15:46, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
that remains my main question also: what the heck for do we need "history of early Christianity" besides " early Christianity", and timeline of early Christianity? We used to have Early Christianity and Origins of Christianity. The "origins" article was scrapped in favour of a redundant "history of early" besides "early history of".
I realize of course that Christian monasticism before 451 includes in its scope the "not-so-early" period of 325-451. It's still "early", and we certainly don't want an early Christian monasticism article distinct from it. I am unclear on your distinction of "events" vs. "formative influences". How are "formative influences" not "events"? History proceeds by events. An accumulation of numerous events of the same gist tend to give rise to "influences". The whole mess is a result of a well-meaning but ill-advised move request back in January 2008. See above.
I appreciate the point that "Early Christianity" can be considered a religion in its own right, as opposed to post-Nicean Christianity mostly simply known as "Christianity". This makes "Early Christianity" more than just an "early history of" article, and this one a generic "history of $RELIGION" article.
I am fine with treating this article as a clear WP:SS sub-article, expanding the "History" section of Early Christianity. The solution would then be splitting off a full origin of Christianity article which will be a sub-article both to this one and to History of Christianity. -- dab (𒁳) 09:14, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
Thomas the Apostle arrived along the southern Indian Malabar Coast in 52 AD and from this came Thomasine Christianity. It is inappropriate to place 'India' under 'Spread of Christianity. User:Rahuljohnson4u ( talk) 09:00, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
OK let me make a suggestion. Move the text to 'Apostolic Church' with minor edits. Instead of saying "Christianity arrived......." change it to " It is believed that Christianity arrived along the southern Indian Malabar Coast by Thomas the Apostle in 52 AD and from this came Thomasine Christianity. These Syrian Malabar Nasranis kept a unique Christian identity untill the arrival of the Portuguese in the 17th century." User:Rahuljohnson4u ( talk) 13:30, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
I've added this section back (on Early Christianity, but due to overall article length it will be merged down to Christianity in the 1st century. -- Beland ( talk) 00:28, 31 January 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved Ucucha 22:39, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
History of early Christianity →
Early history of Christianity —
*This will allow consistent naming for these four parallel articles:
I have taken the liberty of just fixing the problem since there seems to be a tide running against the proposed titles. Here's where I see the consensus running
-- Richard S ( talk) 08:07, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
This section is very biased towards Rome and the western empire. Rome is just one center of the Early centers of Christianity. I tried to improve the situation but was reverted, so I say goodbye and good luck to those who value NPOV and care to fight typical wikipedia stupidity. 75.15.193.175 ( talk) 18:28, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
The section Early_Christianity#Spread_of_Christianity is much better. My suggestion would be to replace the "Spread of Christianity" section in this article with the one from that article. 75.15.193.175 ( talk) 18:52, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
Since my first reverter apologized on my talk page, I went ahead and was bold and replaced the "Spread of Christianity" section in this article with the one from Early_Christianity#Spread_of_Christianity. This solves my POV complaint, as long as it doesn't get reverted. 75.15.193.175 ( talk) 20:55, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
I find the notion from the statement "the new religious group" in the article slightly misleading. The Jewish synagogue in Antioch was not a new religious group, but rather a transformed one. It was the entire Jewish community that became adherent to the Nazareene strand. Suddenly the Jews of the city opened their congregation for Greeks and others. What we call christianity was rather seen as a realisation of the old Judaic mission. -- Xact ( talk) 22:11, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
Hi, Just noticed that the end of section 2.3.1 Judaism and Christianity repeats six lines of text from the previous part of section 2.3 Apostolic Age, starting from " The Council of Jamnia..." 178.103.130.1 ( talk) 00:07, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
Shouldn't we remove the Too long Appellation? The article has been reduced by 50% while the appellation was placed. Marcocapelle ( talk) 13:24, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
We've recently had renames of Christianity in late antiquity, and Christianity in the Middle Ages (from formula "History of". We already have Early Christianity. So suggestion would be to simply merge this "History of early Christianity" with "Early Christianity". Interwikilinks seem to confirm the validity of this position. Chicbyaccident ( talk) 05:27, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
For a follow up discussion, please see: Talk:History of Christianity. PPEMES ( talk) 09:35, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
@ Tahc: Greetings! Regarding this revert...
I redirected this article to Early Christianity because it was a word-for-word copy with some passages deleted. The two versions have been drifting apart over time and need to be resynchronized as when one copy has been improved the same improvements have not been made to the other copy. This sort of copying does not follow Wikipedia:Summary style. If "history" was to be split off from "Early Christianity", as opposed to beliefs and practices and schools of thought, there should be a single "History" section in "Early Christianity" that summarizes "History of Early Christianity". If that's going to happen, the text between the articles still needs to be synced up. I would argue, though, if "Early Christianity" is too long, it would be a lot easier to simply merge it down into Apostolic Age and Ante-Nicene Period since the content is already neatly split up, and redirect it to History of Christianity#Early Christianity. But again, before that could happen the text from History of early Christianity needs to be synced up with it. During the sync-up process there's no point in having two nearly identical articles, one of which is missing a bunch of paragraphs; readers would benefit most from having one copy, especially if anyone is making any further improvements (which I've actually been doing as I go along). -- Beland ( talk) 05:13, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
Origins of Christianity → History of early Christianity — Matches the Christianity/History of Christianity pattern.Yet, the other three articles on the history of Christianity, as mentioned at Talk:History of early Christianity#Move/Rename, have all dropped the term "history of," and simply became "Christiatity in late Antiquity" etc.
tahc chat 18:06, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
I propose we move this to discussion to Talk:Early Christianity#delete Early Christianity. Please pose there instead.
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Early centers of Christianity which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 16:47, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page of a
redirect that targets the page: • Early Christianity Because this page is not frequently watched, present and future discussions, edit requests and requested moves should take place at: • Talk:Early Christianity |
Early centers of Christianity was a Philosophy and religion good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||
|
A summary of this article appears in Early Christianity. |
A summary of this article appears in History of Christianity. |
This redirect does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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per my comments above I do not mind this article's title as long as it is understood that origins of Christianity redirects here. This means that there should be at least an "Origins" section detailing the "prehistory" of Christianity, i.e. the period predating the Apostolic Age, say 200 BC to 30 AD.
it is also unfortunate to cast the development of Christanity exclusively in terms of its Jewish roots, since it has "inherited" at least as much material from non-Jewish Hellenistic currents. The scope of this article, as opposed to the Early Christianity one, should clearly be to trace the evolution of this syncretism of Jewish messianism and Hellenistic mystery cults of the " Osiris-Dionysus" variety. In this sense, Christianity rather than being a simple "split off Judaism" is a "bastard child" of Asian and European religions as it could only have developed in the Roman Empire, where the cult was rooted in European paganism, but anything "oriental" (Egyptian, Chaldean, Persian, etc.) was considered extremely mysterious, in fact not unlike the status of Eastern religions in modern New Age spirituality. -- dab (𒁳) 13:48, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
Hellenistic religion obviously predates the Apostolic Age. For argument's sake, let's simplistically assume that Christianity is a syncretism of Jewish messianism, Neoplatonism and Gnosticism. All three of these have a history predating Christianity. Thus, the "Origins" section needs to discuss
all of these equally predate Christianity. Then we enter the historical developments of the 1st to 3rd centuries:
the above list would cover the main structure of a properly developed WP:SS article on the "history of early Christianity" (= "early history of Christianity") -- dab (𒁳) 15:46, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
that remains my main question also: what the heck for do we need "history of early Christianity" besides " early Christianity", and timeline of early Christianity? We used to have Early Christianity and Origins of Christianity. The "origins" article was scrapped in favour of a redundant "history of early" besides "early history of".
I realize of course that Christian monasticism before 451 includes in its scope the "not-so-early" period of 325-451. It's still "early", and we certainly don't want an early Christian monasticism article distinct from it. I am unclear on your distinction of "events" vs. "formative influences". How are "formative influences" not "events"? History proceeds by events. An accumulation of numerous events of the same gist tend to give rise to "influences". The whole mess is a result of a well-meaning but ill-advised move request back in January 2008. See above.
I appreciate the point that "Early Christianity" can be considered a religion in its own right, as opposed to post-Nicean Christianity mostly simply known as "Christianity". This makes "Early Christianity" more than just an "early history of" article, and this one a generic "history of $RELIGION" article.
I am fine with treating this article as a clear WP:SS sub-article, expanding the "History" section of Early Christianity. The solution would then be splitting off a full origin of Christianity article which will be a sub-article both to this one and to History of Christianity. -- dab (𒁳) 09:14, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
Thomas the Apostle arrived along the southern Indian Malabar Coast in 52 AD and from this came Thomasine Christianity. It is inappropriate to place 'India' under 'Spread of Christianity. User:Rahuljohnson4u ( talk) 09:00, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
OK let me make a suggestion. Move the text to 'Apostolic Church' with minor edits. Instead of saying "Christianity arrived......." change it to " It is believed that Christianity arrived along the southern Indian Malabar Coast by Thomas the Apostle in 52 AD and from this came Thomasine Christianity. These Syrian Malabar Nasranis kept a unique Christian identity untill the arrival of the Portuguese in the 17th century." User:Rahuljohnson4u ( talk) 13:30, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
I've added this section back (on Early Christianity, but due to overall article length it will be merged down to Christianity in the 1st century. -- Beland ( talk) 00:28, 31 January 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved Ucucha 22:39, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
History of early Christianity →
Early history of Christianity —
*This will allow consistent naming for these four parallel articles:
I have taken the liberty of just fixing the problem since there seems to be a tide running against the proposed titles. Here's where I see the consensus running
-- Richard S ( talk) 08:07, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
This section is very biased towards Rome and the western empire. Rome is just one center of the Early centers of Christianity. I tried to improve the situation but was reverted, so I say goodbye and good luck to those who value NPOV and care to fight typical wikipedia stupidity. 75.15.193.175 ( talk) 18:28, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
The section Early_Christianity#Spread_of_Christianity is much better. My suggestion would be to replace the "Spread of Christianity" section in this article with the one from that article. 75.15.193.175 ( talk) 18:52, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
Since my first reverter apologized on my talk page, I went ahead and was bold and replaced the "Spread of Christianity" section in this article with the one from Early_Christianity#Spread_of_Christianity. This solves my POV complaint, as long as it doesn't get reverted. 75.15.193.175 ( talk) 20:55, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
I find the notion from the statement "the new religious group" in the article slightly misleading. The Jewish synagogue in Antioch was not a new religious group, but rather a transformed one. It was the entire Jewish community that became adherent to the Nazareene strand. Suddenly the Jews of the city opened their congregation for Greeks and others. What we call christianity was rather seen as a realisation of the old Judaic mission. -- Xact ( talk) 22:11, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
Hi, Just noticed that the end of section 2.3.1 Judaism and Christianity repeats six lines of text from the previous part of section 2.3 Apostolic Age, starting from " The Council of Jamnia..." 178.103.130.1 ( talk) 00:07, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
Shouldn't we remove the Too long Appellation? The article has been reduced by 50% while the appellation was placed. Marcocapelle ( talk) 13:24, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
We've recently had renames of Christianity in late antiquity, and Christianity in the Middle Ages (from formula "History of". We already have Early Christianity. So suggestion would be to simply merge this "History of early Christianity" with "Early Christianity". Interwikilinks seem to confirm the validity of this position. Chicbyaccident ( talk) 05:27, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
For a follow up discussion, please see: Talk:History of Christianity. PPEMES ( talk) 09:35, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
@ Tahc: Greetings! Regarding this revert...
I redirected this article to Early Christianity because it was a word-for-word copy with some passages deleted. The two versions have been drifting apart over time and need to be resynchronized as when one copy has been improved the same improvements have not been made to the other copy. This sort of copying does not follow Wikipedia:Summary style. If "history" was to be split off from "Early Christianity", as opposed to beliefs and practices and schools of thought, there should be a single "History" section in "Early Christianity" that summarizes "History of Early Christianity". If that's going to happen, the text between the articles still needs to be synced up. I would argue, though, if "Early Christianity" is too long, it would be a lot easier to simply merge it down into Apostolic Age and Ante-Nicene Period since the content is already neatly split up, and redirect it to History of Christianity#Early Christianity. But again, before that could happen the text from History of early Christianity needs to be synced up with it. During the sync-up process there's no point in having two nearly identical articles, one of which is missing a bunch of paragraphs; readers would benefit most from having one copy, especially if anyone is making any further improvements (which I've actually been doing as I go along). -- Beland ( talk) 05:13, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
Origins of Christianity → History of early Christianity — Matches the Christianity/History of Christianity pattern.Yet, the other three articles on the history of Christianity, as mentioned at Talk:History of early Christianity#Move/Rename, have all dropped the term "history of," and simply became "Christiatity in late Antiquity" etc.
tahc chat 18:06, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
I propose we move this to discussion to Talk:Early Christianity#delete Early Christianity. Please pose there instead.
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Early centers of Christianity which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 16:47, 17 September 2022 (UTC)