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According to what I've read, Tibetan monastics all use the Mūlasarvāstivāda Vinaya. The Mūlasarvāstivādins and the Sarvāstivādins had similar doctrines, but very different vinayas.
I think Nikaya Buddhism can be used in Wikipedia, but I the term Early Buddhist Schools is much better, because it is actually precisely that - they were different early schools of buddhism. Giving it a name like Nikaya Buddhism in stead of early buddhist schools just confuses things instead of making it clear. The commonality between them only makes sense when comparing them to Mahayana.
Nikaya Buddhism can probably be best stay alone, to indicate that it was a term first used by this Japanese professor, and further to mention that it is only used in the academic environment; not out in the real world. Most of the information in his article can then be moved to the article on Early Buddhist Schools. Sacca 12:55, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
Hello Nat, I was able to single out four 'criteria' which need to be fulfilled for a school to be a early Buddhist school according to the commonly used meaning of it.
Early Buddhist Schools: the (1) historically ancient schools which (2) shared a common set of (very similar) Vinayas and Suttas, but which (3) differed in commentarial traditions (and opinions) about their colosely defined meanings. What drove them in their commentarial traditions was the (4) quest to define the 'true' meaning of the discourses of Buddha in the Sutta-pitaka.
In practice, this agrees with the meaning of what is usually meant with 'early buddhist schools', It does also not imply a negative value judgement about the content of their beliefs or practices, which the term 'Hinayana' does do (Hinayana is also never used in the 'Theravada' world). Remains the term Nikaya, which is more commonly used for the majjhima nikaya etcetera, and whihc is highly scholastic and not really used or known amongst normal buddhists. I think the term early buddhist school is thus the most understandable and impartial term.
At the time of the arising of Mahayana the dust was already largely settled among the early schools; they solidified their positions, and not much significant new things were happening there. Some schools did arise after the Mahayana (If I remember correctly some back-to-basics-schools). The 'historically ancient' criteria does however not limit the early buddhist schools to having to have to have arisen before Mahayana. Notice that Mahayana is a development which doesn't need to be mentioned in this discription since their attitude to the scriptures/'true meaning' is different, and so they do not qualify.
In understand what you meant with your comment on 'Theravada is not an early buddhist school' now, but I also recognize that it is not correct to say that the USA was not a country in the 'Americas' in the 18th century.
I agree with your comments on this (early buddhist schools) article. The piece on the history doesn't really fit here, in particular it is not necessary to mention the buddhist councils in such great detail. The article can be pruned quite a lot in this respect. Some contect can be moved to Buddhist councils, if it is not yet present there. greetings, Sacca 03:55, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I've been told that "Nikaya Buddhism" and "Early Buddhist Schools" would not be synonymous because not all early schools followed the Pali Nikayas--some, like the Sarvastivada, followed the similar Sanskrit Agamas instead. Is this fair to say? Sylvain1972 17:21, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Although many popular sources call the Sthavira/Thera faction which emerged at the time of the first schism "Sthaviravada/Theravada", this is Buddhist Myth Number 997 (there are so many of them !). The term "Theravada" as the name of a Buddhist group -- that is, THE Theravada -- is surprisingly late. It does not appear in epigraphical or textual sources until about 12 or 13 centuries after the Buddha. On the contrary, epigraphical and literary sources indicate that the present-day Theravadins were first Vibhajjavadins, then Tambapanniyas, then Theriyas, and then finally Theravadins. Calling the early Sthavira/Thera faction Sthaviravada/Theravada is probably a clever bit of modern Theravada legitimizing propaganda.-- Stephen Hodge 20:38, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Sacca, thanks for your posting. I would not accuse the medieval monks who chose to call their school "Theravada" of bad faith, rather it is some of the modern adherents who should know better and perpetrate a myth.
The whole question of the Councils and the emergence of the divergent schools is extremely complex: the materials are often contradictory and partisan. But my overview of this phase of Buddhist history,based on the findings of a number of major scholars is as follows:
1. The First Rajagrha Council is authentic, but the range of sutra and vinaya material codified was smaller than the traditional account. There are clear signs of development in the sutras and vinaya which would only have arisen after the Parinirvana. For example, there are many passages in the Skandhaka (Maha & Culla-vargas) which persuppose large monastic groups settled in constructed viharas. We know from the archeology that there just were not any large-scale monastic buildings for the first couple of hundred years after the Parinirvana. But there is one very important decision made at this council which is relevent to the later splits. The Pratimoksha rules were fixed and it was agreed never to delete or add rules to this list.
2. The Second Vaishali Council was, as you suggest, probably not a true council. It involved a group of monks who were handling money and proposing changes to nine other very minor rules. This dispute was resolved with the deviant monks accepting the existing rules. This council is now thought to have taken place around 80 - 90 years after Parinirvana, not the traditional 100 years (which is just a nice round number) during the reign of King Kālāshoka. This dispute did not in any way involve the ancestors of the Mahasanghikas, because their Vinaya is just as strict on all those matters.
3. The "Second" Second Council (held at Pataliputra) has been proposed by many scholars to account for the first post-parinirvana split in the Sangha. This split did not occur at Vaishali and it did not occur at the Third Council. From several sources it would seem to have taken place 116 years after Parinirvana, at the end of King Kālāshoka's reign. The cause of the conflict involved Vinaya matters. An interesting hypothesis for this is that some members of the Sangha were very worried by the recent events of the Vaishali incident. In order to prevent the Sangha from breaking up, they wanted to supplement the Pratimoksha with extra rules to tighten up the discipline. A majority of monks did not agree to this and rejected this proposal. Those who proposed the changes were the Sthaviras and the majority who rejected these changes, because of the decision taken at the First Council, were the Mahasanghikas. The Mahasanghika Pratimoksha is the form of the original pratimoksha -- it has the fewest rules. This has been established by six scholars independently, using different criteria. So, the Sthaviras had good intentions to keep the Sangha together, but it was they who caused the first split. The Sthavira lineage Vinayas, including Theravada, all have extra rules: we go from 218 with the Mahasanghikas, 227 with the Theravadins, up to 263 with the Sarvastivadins.
If these groups were not adverse to tampering with the Vinaya, I see no reason to suppose they would not have done the same with the sutras. The only comparative clue we have about this is the Chinese version of the Mahasanghika Ekottara-agama which has far fewer sutras than the Pali version. All the other Chinese Agama translations come from the same Vibhajjavadin lineage.
4. The Third Council is unknown outside the later Theravadin tradition. It seems to have been a local discussion group for the Vibhajjavadins.
As for a chart showing the relationship between all the early groups, there is one in another Wiki article although it needs improving.-- Stephen Hodge 21:14, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Hello, as far as I am concerned this (performing Vinaya funtions together) is common knowledge. I searched to internet for a source and found the following:
so it is best that we take to heart the writings of the Chinese pilgrims who visited India centuries ago. They reported that even after the early Buddhists had split into 18 schools, each with its own Tripitaka and Patimokkha, and the Mahayanists had added their texts to the tradition, bhikkhus belonging to different schools could be found living together in the same monastery, practicing and conducting communal business in peace and harmony. Buddhist Monastic Code I, Thanissaro bhikkhu.
So I guess it can be found in one of the accounts of the Chinese pilgrims. I think it is mentioned in Lamotte's book also.
Did you know there is actually a precedent set in the Buddha's time about adding new rules by the Sangha? One local Sangha (monastery) added a new pacittiya offence, after which the Buddha admonished them and said that this can only be done by himself. So at the First Buddhist Council it was not necessary to close the Patimokkha since it was never open to the Sangha anyway. They did decide not to relinquish the lesser and minor rules, though, since Buddha explicitly allowed them to relinquish all lesser and minor rules if the whole Sangha agreed. This story of the Buddha's time might explain why they added only sekhiyas to the various patimokkhas afterwards. Greetings, Sacca 02:18, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
I want to know if there are existing Japanese and Chinese Buddhist sects that do not regard Mahayana sutras as authentic, and that trace their tradition to one of the early schools. Specifically, did Ritsu (see also Toshodaiji) exist as a distinct sect having a distinct canon? Does it still exist as a sect, and does it still have a distinct canon? With regard to Lu-tsung, is there a still a distinct sect in China, or does this now refer exclusively to a field of discipline within mainline Mahayana and Vajrayana denominations? -- munge 06:55, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Ritsu does still exist as an independent school in Japan, though it's very small, with only a few dozen monks & nuns. However, these are the only ones in the Japanese tradition, all other schools having replaced monastic ordination with bodhisattva ordination. It is still a Mahayana shool. However, in recent times an Agon school has arisen, with about 2 million adherents, concentrating on the agamas, though I don't know whether it actually rejects Mahayana. Peter jackson 10:47, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
These trees are great! But they really need to be graphics. brain 16:43, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I haven't checked, but I don't think the article gives all the different versions found in sources. Lamotte, History of Indian Buddhism, gives a fair few. Peter jackson 11:11, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Try also: Bareau, André. Les Sectes bouddhique du Petit Véhicule. Saigon École Française d'Extrême-Orient, 1955. Huifeng ( talk) 05:08, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
The name of this article is "early Buddhist schools," but actually this name is inaccurate for a few reasons. The most important of these is that these "schools" were not really schools, but more like monastic fraternities, with the most important common element being the vinaya. Nikayas with different vinaya traditions had their own rules which were mutually incompatible, but which established a common basis for discipline within the monastic community. The term "school," however, implies that the most important common element was Dharma or doctrine, and that this was what distinguished each of these groups. This is certainly not the case, as we know from the Chinese pilgrims such as Faxian, Xuanzang, and Yijing. Each of these pilgrims mentions that "Hinayana" sravakas and Mahayana bodhisattvas often occupied the same monasteries and lived in relative peace with one another. There is even mention of both types of students attending the same lectures. The difference was in the books they read, their individual aspirations, and their individual practices. Furthermore, three nikayas still exist: Theravada, Dharmaguptaka, and Mulasarvastivada. Their vinayas still serve the basic function of providing a set of rules for their respective monastic communities, and thus serve their original basic purpose. However, this article seems to frame the nikayas as doctrinal schools first and foremost, and as being historical Indian relics rather than a basic tradition of Buddhism that is still present in most Buddhist countries. For these various reasons, I would recommend that the name of this article be changed to "Buddhist Nikayas," which accurately represents these groups with the original word, which is not so misleading. Tengu800 ( talk) 23:56, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
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According to what I've read, Tibetan monastics all use the Mūlasarvāstivāda Vinaya. The Mūlasarvāstivādins and the Sarvāstivādins had similar doctrines, but very different vinayas.
I think Nikaya Buddhism can be used in Wikipedia, but I the term Early Buddhist Schools is much better, because it is actually precisely that - they were different early schools of buddhism. Giving it a name like Nikaya Buddhism in stead of early buddhist schools just confuses things instead of making it clear. The commonality between them only makes sense when comparing them to Mahayana.
Nikaya Buddhism can probably be best stay alone, to indicate that it was a term first used by this Japanese professor, and further to mention that it is only used in the academic environment; not out in the real world. Most of the information in his article can then be moved to the article on Early Buddhist Schools. Sacca 12:55, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
Hello Nat, I was able to single out four 'criteria' which need to be fulfilled for a school to be a early Buddhist school according to the commonly used meaning of it.
Early Buddhist Schools: the (1) historically ancient schools which (2) shared a common set of (very similar) Vinayas and Suttas, but which (3) differed in commentarial traditions (and opinions) about their colosely defined meanings. What drove them in their commentarial traditions was the (4) quest to define the 'true' meaning of the discourses of Buddha in the Sutta-pitaka.
In practice, this agrees with the meaning of what is usually meant with 'early buddhist schools', It does also not imply a negative value judgement about the content of their beliefs or practices, which the term 'Hinayana' does do (Hinayana is also never used in the 'Theravada' world). Remains the term Nikaya, which is more commonly used for the majjhima nikaya etcetera, and whihc is highly scholastic and not really used or known amongst normal buddhists. I think the term early buddhist school is thus the most understandable and impartial term.
At the time of the arising of Mahayana the dust was already largely settled among the early schools; they solidified their positions, and not much significant new things were happening there. Some schools did arise after the Mahayana (If I remember correctly some back-to-basics-schools). The 'historically ancient' criteria does however not limit the early buddhist schools to having to have to have arisen before Mahayana. Notice that Mahayana is a development which doesn't need to be mentioned in this discription since their attitude to the scriptures/'true meaning' is different, and so they do not qualify.
In understand what you meant with your comment on 'Theravada is not an early buddhist school' now, but I also recognize that it is not correct to say that the USA was not a country in the 'Americas' in the 18th century.
I agree with your comments on this (early buddhist schools) article. The piece on the history doesn't really fit here, in particular it is not necessary to mention the buddhist councils in such great detail. The article can be pruned quite a lot in this respect. Some contect can be moved to Buddhist councils, if it is not yet present there. greetings, Sacca 03:55, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I've been told that "Nikaya Buddhism" and "Early Buddhist Schools" would not be synonymous because not all early schools followed the Pali Nikayas--some, like the Sarvastivada, followed the similar Sanskrit Agamas instead. Is this fair to say? Sylvain1972 17:21, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Although many popular sources call the Sthavira/Thera faction which emerged at the time of the first schism "Sthaviravada/Theravada", this is Buddhist Myth Number 997 (there are so many of them !). The term "Theravada" as the name of a Buddhist group -- that is, THE Theravada -- is surprisingly late. It does not appear in epigraphical or textual sources until about 12 or 13 centuries after the Buddha. On the contrary, epigraphical and literary sources indicate that the present-day Theravadins were first Vibhajjavadins, then Tambapanniyas, then Theriyas, and then finally Theravadins. Calling the early Sthavira/Thera faction Sthaviravada/Theravada is probably a clever bit of modern Theravada legitimizing propaganda.-- Stephen Hodge 20:38, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Sacca, thanks for your posting. I would not accuse the medieval monks who chose to call their school "Theravada" of bad faith, rather it is some of the modern adherents who should know better and perpetrate a myth.
The whole question of the Councils and the emergence of the divergent schools is extremely complex: the materials are often contradictory and partisan. But my overview of this phase of Buddhist history,based on the findings of a number of major scholars is as follows:
1. The First Rajagrha Council is authentic, but the range of sutra and vinaya material codified was smaller than the traditional account. There are clear signs of development in the sutras and vinaya which would only have arisen after the Parinirvana. For example, there are many passages in the Skandhaka (Maha & Culla-vargas) which persuppose large monastic groups settled in constructed viharas. We know from the archeology that there just were not any large-scale monastic buildings for the first couple of hundred years after the Parinirvana. But there is one very important decision made at this council which is relevent to the later splits. The Pratimoksha rules were fixed and it was agreed never to delete or add rules to this list.
2. The Second Vaishali Council was, as you suggest, probably not a true council. It involved a group of monks who were handling money and proposing changes to nine other very minor rules. This dispute was resolved with the deviant monks accepting the existing rules. This council is now thought to have taken place around 80 - 90 years after Parinirvana, not the traditional 100 years (which is just a nice round number) during the reign of King Kālāshoka. This dispute did not in any way involve the ancestors of the Mahasanghikas, because their Vinaya is just as strict on all those matters.
3. The "Second" Second Council (held at Pataliputra) has been proposed by many scholars to account for the first post-parinirvana split in the Sangha. This split did not occur at Vaishali and it did not occur at the Third Council. From several sources it would seem to have taken place 116 years after Parinirvana, at the end of King Kālāshoka's reign. The cause of the conflict involved Vinaya matters. An interesting hypothesis for this is that some members of the Sangha were very worried by the recent events of the Vaishali incident. In order to prevent the Sangha from breaking up, they wanted to supplement the Pratimoksha with extra rules to tighten up the discipline. A majority of monks did not agree to this and rejected this proposal. Those who proposed the changes were the Sthaviras and the majority who rejected these changes, because of the decision taken at the First Council, were the Mahasanghikas. The Mahasanghika Pratimoksha is the form of the original pratimoksha -- it has the fewest rules. This has been established by six scholars independently, using different criteria. So, the Sthaviras had good intentions to keep the Sangha together, but it was they who caused the first split. The Sthavira lineage Vinayas, including Theravada, all have extra rules: we go from 218 with the Mahasanghikas, 227 with the Theravadins, up to 263 with the Sarvastivadins.
If these groups were not adverse to tampering with the Vinaya, I see no reason to suppose they would not have done the same with the sutras. The only comparative clue we have about this is the Chinese version of the Mahasanghika Ekottara-agama which has far fewer sutras than the Pali version. All the other Chinese Agama translations come from the same Vibhajjavadin lineage.
4. The Third Council is unknown outside the later Theravadin tradition. It seems to have been a local discussion group for the Vibhajjavadins.
As for a chart showing the relationship between all the early groups, there is one in another Wiki article although it needs improving.-- Stephen Hodge 21:14, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Hello, as far as I am concerned this (performing Vinaya funtions together) is common knowledge. I searched to internet for a source and found the following:
so it is best that we take to heart the writings of the Chinese pilgrims who visited India centuries ago. They reported that even after the early Buddhists had split into 18 schools, each with its own Tripitaka and Patimokkha, and the Mahayanists had added their texts to the tradition, bhikkhus belonging to different schools could be found living together in the same monastery, practicing and conducting communal business in peace and harmony. Buddhist Monastic Code I, Thanissaro bhikkhu.
So I guess it can be found in one of the accounts of the Chinese pilgrims. I think it is mentioned in Lamotte's book also.
Did you know there is actually a precedent set in the Buddha's time about adding new rules by the Sangha? One local Sangha (monastery) added a new pacittiya offence, after which the Buddha admonished them and said that this can only be done by himself. So at the First Buddhist Council it was not necessary to close the Patimokkha since it was never open to the Sangha anyway. They did decide not to relinquish the lesser and minor rules, though, since Buddha explicitly allowed them to relinquish all lesser and minor rules if the whole Sangha agreed. This story of the Buddha's time might explain why they added only sekhiyas to the various patimokkhas afterwards. Greetings, Sacca 02:18, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
I want to know if there are existing Japanese and Chinese Buddhist sects that do not regard Mahayana sutras as authentic, and that trace their tradition to one of the early schools. Specifically, did Ritsu (see also Toshodaiji) exist as a distinct sect having a distinct canon? Does it still exist as a sect, and does it still have a distinct canon? With regard to Lu-tsung, is there a still a distinct sect in China, or does this now refer exclusively to a field of discipline within mainline Mahayana and Vajrayana denominations? -- munge 06:55, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Ritsu does still exist as an independent school in Japan, though it's very small, with only a few dozen monks & nuns. However, these are the only ones in the Japanese tradition, all other schools having replaced monastic ordination with bodhisattva ordination. It is still a Mahayana shool. However, in recent times an Agon school has arisen, with about 2 million adherents, concentrating on the agamas, though I don't know whether it actually rejects Mahayana. Peter jackson 10:47, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
These trees are great! But they really need to be graphics. brain 16:43, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I haven't checked, but I don't think the article gives all the different versions found in sources. Lamotte, History of Indian Buddhism, gives a fair few. Peter jackson 11:11, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Try also: Bareau, André. Les Sectes bouddhique du Petit Véhicule. Saigon École Française d'Extrême-Orient, 1955. Huifeng ( talk) 05:08, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
The name of this article is "early Buddhist schools," but actually this name is inaccurate for a few reasons. The most important of these is that these "schools" were not really schools, but more like monastic fraternities, with the most important common element being the vinaya. Nikayas with different vinaya traditions had their own rules which were mutually incompatible, but which established a common basis for discipline within the monastic community. The term "school," however, implies that the most important common element was Dharma or doctrine, and that this was what distinguished each of these groups. This is certainly not the case, as we know from the Chinese pilgrims such as Faxian, Xuanzang, and Yijing. Each of these pilgrims mentions that "Hinayana" sravakas and Mahayana bodhisattvas often occupied the same monasteries and lived in relative peace with one another. There is even mention of both types of students attending the same lectures. The difference was in the books they read, their individual aspirations, and their individual practices. Furthermore, three nikayas still exist: Theravada, Dharmaguptaka, and Mulasarvastivada. Their vinayas still serve the basic function of providing a set of rules for their respective monastic communities, and thus serve their original basic purpose. However, this article seems to frame the nikayas as doctrinal schools first and foremost, and as being historical Indian relics rather than a basic tradition of Buddhism that is still present in most Buddhist countries. For these various reasons, I would recommend that the name of this article be changed to "Buddhist Nikayas," which accurately represents these groups with the original word, which is not so misleading. Tengu800 ( talk) 23:56, 22 March 2011 (UTC)