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Their ancestors fled there NOT from persecution but for famine in China in the 19th century Back then, Russian czar gave them land to encourage them to stay. Your definition can not explain why only few Hui people are outside of China. comment by User:129.120.61.116 moved from main article
User:Daduzi, I reverted your change of linking 'Chinese' to Han Chinese; now it's back to linking to Chinese people. Dungan people are mostly of Hui origin rather than Han (though it's likely there are some recent Han Muslim converts among them, and maybe even Sinicized non-Han Muslim minorities). Better just to call them as "Chinese" (something like zhonghua minzu) unless we can find specific genetic data. (The Dungan themselves generally describe themselves as being exclusively descended from Hui.) Pls yell to me if you disagree. cab 14:43, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
I am copying this from "my talk" FYI.-- Mack2 16:19, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
Dungan
Hey Mack2. Thanks for your edit on Dungan. However, I reverted it, since both those pages were already linked from elsewhere in the article. The See Also section is usually for articles which may be somewhat related to the topic of the article and/or interesting to the reader for further exploration, but didn't need to be linked from within the body of the article itself. Also. Links to versions of the same article in another language appear in the left sidebar when you're viewing the page; they're usually grouped together near the bottom when you're editing it. Cheers. cab 15:53, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
OK, but to be honest the English-language articles are much more confusing than they ought to be, and that's why I deliberately provided the seemingly redundant cross-links. There are now separate articles on Hui and Dungan. But these these are just two names for the same ethnic group. I think these articles ought to be consolidated. It is misleading to say that Dungans are the name used in the (former) Soviet Union to describe a group of Chinese Muslims, for example, since the name "Dungan" is also used by Uighur and other Turkic peoples in both Xinjiang and in Kyrgyzstan and in Russia to refer to the "Hui." On a visit to Xinjiang, I heard a Uighur describe the people as "Dungan," for example.
I'm not skilled enough to do a consolidation, but I feel there needs to be a consolidation both in substance and the cross-links to avoid the wrong implication. Perhaps you can take it on? Thanks.--Mack2 16:14, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
Added: It seems to me that one article on Dungans (Hui), with redirection as needed, would suffice. And then the language, religion, culture can be described basically once, with (if needed) separate sections on Hui (Dungans) in China and Dungans (Hui) in the former Soviet republics.-- Mack2 16:37, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
I'd oppose consolidation. There's something of a dilemma here. Basically, there's a group of of people in the former Soviet Union speaking a language that's definitely not Chinese, (though it's as related as Urdu is to Hindi), and calling themselves "Hui". Separately, there's a group of people in China speaking a language that definitely *is* Chinese, and calling themselves "Hui". Turks refer to both groups as "Dungan" and their language as "Dungan language". But English and Chinese speakers both make a distinction between "Dungan" speaking in "Dungan language" and "Hui" speaking in Chinese. Also, if a bunch of Hui in Beijing picked up tomorrow and moved to Kazakhstan, Chinese people would still call them Hui, not Dungan. If you referred to them as Dungan, both English and Chinese speakers would get the (incorrect) impression that they were native speakers of Dungan language who grew up there. cab 03:04, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
ADDED: Here's what the Russian article says. I'll give a quick and dirty translation. Note that they don't differentiate between the Hui in China and the Hui in Central Asia except in their writing systems.
Дунгане — народ, проживающий в Китае, Киргизии, южном Казахстане, Узбекистане. Самоназвание хуэй. Дунгане говорят на диалекте китайского языка. Живущие в странах СНГ используют письменность на основе кириллицы. Исповедуют ислам ханафитского толка, являются потомками мусульман, бежавших из Китая в конце 18 века. (Dungans -- a people living in China, Kirgizia, south Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan. They call themselves Hue. Dungans speak in a dialect of the Chinese language. Those who live in the countries of the Commonwealth of Independent States (SNG) use a writing system based on the Cyrillic alphabet. They are believers in Islam of the Hanafi school, and are Muslims by descent, having fled China at the end of the 19th Century.)
Дунгане занимаются земледелием, торговлей на рынках. Во всех крупных городах региона популярны кафе дунганской кухни. (Dungans work in agriculture and trading in the bazaars (markets). In all large cities in the region cafes with Dungan cooking are popular.) В киргизском городе Каракол сохранилась деревянная дунганская мечеть начала XX века. (In the Kyrgyz city of Karakol, an ancient Dungan mosque is preserved from the beginning of the 20th century.) В России согласно переписи 2002 года проживает 800 дунган. (According to the 2002 census, 800 Dungans live in Russia.)
:As for the question of whether or not "Dungan" is applicable to all Hui people, I'd agree that the Hui people of Northwestern China, from Shaanxi to Xinjiang and into the former Soviet Union, have their own distinctive culture and history and the word "Dungan" originally applied only to them. Nowadays, however, due to the official conception of Hui people as promoted by China, I'd question the notion that Uyghurs working and travelling in Guangzhou or Beijing would not also refer to the Hui people they encounter there as "Dungans" if speaking about them in their own language. 124.119.153.69 ( talk) 10:52, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
Want to get opinions from other users --- any comments on whether the navigation box {{ Overseas Chinese}} should be placed at the bottom of this article? Cheers, cab 10:25, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{ Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 17:04, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
What about Miao and Hmong, Jing people and Vietnamese, Tajiks in China and Tajiks. 218.188.90.194 ( talk) 02:01, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
I've explained my rationale earlier here and on the Hui discussion thread. Merging Hui into Dungan would be sort of like merging Mexicans into an article on Mexican Americans. "Dungans" call themselves Hui, whether they live in China, Kyrgzstan, Uzbekistan, or Russia. --Mack2 ( talk) 17:48, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
This is completely fallacious:
"It is generally believed that the origins of Islam is due to the fact that Dungans are descendants of Arabs that moved to Asia thousands of years ago during the silk road period. This is also why many Dungans have Arabic names."
The entire Muslim world has "Arabic names". Yet, only less than 10% of the Muslims in the world are Arabs. Is a European Bosniak with the name "Djevat" (from "Jawad"), or "Mehmet" (from "Muhammad") an Arab?
As stated in this entry, "the origins of Islam" have nothing to do with the Dungan population. This is poor wording. Also, Islam has not been around for "thousands of years", nor was the "silk road period" where the Arabs were trading on that route "thousands of years ago".
Islam amongst the Dungans is a combination of two factors:
1) Arab preachers along the Silk Road who were given freedom to preach by T'ang Emperor Gaozong.
2) Mass conversions to Islam by the Mongols, Berke Khan and the Golden Horde in particular, as well as mass conversions by the populations in their territories,I'm changing this erroneous statement in this Wiki entry. Thank you.
There's so much extra space at the bottom. Someone (please) fix it. 68.148.164.166 ( talk) 08:28, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Another claim is they called themselves 东岸人 when asked, without realizing the "asker"s were asking their ethnic group. Then the name Dong'an became Dungan by misinformation. -- 虞海 (Yú Hǎi) ( talk) 18:48, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
Looking at the history for Sep 17-18, 2011, one can see a large amount of (mostly sourced) material removed, and some (both sourced and un-sourced) material added, by User:Arash Shah and 14.104.179.19. I can't research this seriously at the moment, to figure what makes sense and what does not. But note, for example, the replacement of the census-derived numbers in the summary table with larger, round numbers, and adding Farsi among the language spoken (hardly common, I am sure). -- Vmenkov ( talk) 15:56, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
Per WP:Lead I have identified that this lede does not provide an accessible overview of the article's key points, without being too short, and so used the template {{Inadequate lead}} to tag the section for improvement. I hope that others will assist in addressing the numerous deficiencies within this article. Note: I also applied the Talk Header to this talk page... JDanek007 Talk 20:39, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
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Their ancestors fled there NOT from persecution but for famine in China in the 19th century Back then, Russian czar gave them land to encourage them to stay. Your definition can not explain why only few Hui people are outside of China. comment by User:129.120.61.116 moved from main article
User:Daduzi, I reverted your change of linking 'Chinese' to Han Chinese; now it's back to linking to Chinese people. Dungan people are mostly of Hui origin rather than Han (though it's likely there are some recent Han Muslim converts among them, and maybe even Sinicized non-Han Muslim minorities). Better just to call them as "Chinese" (something like zhonghua minzu) unless we can find specific genetic data. (The Dungan themselves generally describe themselves as being exclusively descended from Hui.) Pls yell to me if you disagree. cab 14:43, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
I am copying this from "my talk" FYI.-- Mack2 16:19, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
Dungan
Hey Mack2. Thanks for your edit on Dungan. However, I reverted it, since both those pages were already linked from elsewhere in the article. The See Also section is usually for articles which may be somewhat related to the topic of the article and/or interesting to the reader for further exploration, but didn't need to be linked from within the body of the article itself. Also. Links to versions of the same article in another language appear in the left sidebar when you're viewing the page; they're usually grouped together near the bottom when you're editing it. Cheers. cab 15:53, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
OK, but to be honest the English-language articles are much more confusing than they ought to be, and that's why I deliberately provided the seemingly redundant cross-links. There are now separate articles on Hui and Dungan. But these these are just two names for the same ethnic group. I think these articles ought to be consolidated. It is misleading to say that Dungans are the name used in the (former) Soviet Union to describe a group of Chinese Muslims, for example, since the name "Dungan" is also used by Uighur and other Turkic peoples in both Xinjiang and in Kyrgyzstan and in Russia to refer to the "Hui." On a visit to Xinjiang, I heard a Uighur describe the people as "Dungan," for example.
I'm not skilled enough to do a consolidation, but I feel there needs to be a consolidation both in substance and the cross-links to avoid the wrong implication. Perhaps you can take it on? Thanks.--Mack2 16:14, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
Added: It seems to me that one article on Dungans (Hui), with redirection as needed, would suffice. And then the language, religion, culture can be described basically once, with (if needed) separate sections on Hui (Dungans) in China and Dungans (Hui) in the former Soviet republics.-- Mack2 16:37, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
I'd oppose consolidation. There's something of a dilemma here. Basically, there's a group of of people in the former Soviet Union speaking a language that's definitely not Chinese, (though it's as related as Urdu is to Hindi), and calling themselves "Hui". Separately, there's a group of people in China speaking a language that definitely *is* Chinese, and calling themselves "Hui". Turks refer to both groups as "Dungan" and their language as "Dungan language". But English and Chinese speakers both make a distinction between "Dungan" speaking in "Dungan language" and "Hui" speaking in Chinese. Also, if a bunch of Hui in Beijing picked up tomorrow and moved to Kazakhstan, Chinese people would still call them Hui, not Dungan. If you referred to them as Dungan, both English and Chinese speakers would get the (incorrect) impression that they were native speakers of Dungan language who grew up there. cab 03:04, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
ADDED: Here's what the Russian article says. I'll give a quick and dirty translation. Note that they don't differentiate between the Hui in China and the Hui in Central Asia except in their writing systems.
Дунгане — народ, проживающий в Китае, Киргизии, южном Казахстане, Узбекистане. Самоназвание хуэй. Дунгане говорят на диалекте китайского языка. Живущие в странах СНГ используют письменность на основе кириллицы. Исповедуют ислам ханафитского толка, являются потомками мусульман, бежавших из Китая в конце 18 века. (Dungans -- a people living in China, Kirgizia, south Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan. They call themselves Hue. Dungans speak in a dialect of the Chinese language. Those who live in the countries of the Commonwealth of Independent States (SNG) use a writing system based on the Cyrillic alphabet. They are believers in Islam of the Hanafi school, and are Muslims by descent, having fled China at the end of the 19th Century.)
Дунгане занимаются земледелием, торговлей на рынках. Во всех крупных городах региона популярны кафе дунганской кухни. (Dungans work in agriculture and trading in the bazaars (markets). In all large cities in the region cafes with Dungan cooking are popular.) В киргизском городе Каракол сохранилась деревянная дунганская мечеть начала XX века. (In the Kyrgyz city of Karakol, an ancient Dungan mosque is preserved from the beginning of the 20th century.) В России согласно переписи 2002 года проживает 800 дунган. (According to the 2002 census, 800 Dungans live in Russia.)
:As for the question of whether or not "Dungan" is applicable to all Hui people, I'd agree that the Hui people of Northwestern China, from Shaanxi to Xinjiang and into the former Soviet Union, have their own distinctive culture and history and the word "Dungan" originally applied only to them. Nowadays, however, due to the official conception of Hui people as promoted by China, I'd question the notion that Uyghurs working and travelling in Guangzhou or Beijing would not also refer to the Hui people they encounter there as "Dungans" if speaking about them in their own language. 124.119.153.69 ( talk) 10:52, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
Want to get opinions from other users --- any comments on whether the navigation box {{ Overseas Chinese}} should be placed at the bottom of this article? Cheers, cab 10:25, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{ Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 17:04, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
What about Miao and Hmong, Jing people and Vietnamese, Tajiks in China and Tajiks. 218.188.90.194 ( talk) 02:01, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
I've explained my rationale earlier here and on the Hui discussion thread. Merging Hui into Dungan would be sort of like merging Mexicans into an article on Mexican Americans. "Dungans" call themselves Hui, whether they live in China, Kyrgzstan, Uzbekistan, or Russia. --Mack2 ( talk) 17:48, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
This is completely fallacious:
"It is generally believed that the origins of Islam is due to the fact that Dungans are descendants of Arabs that moved to Asia thousands of years ago during the silk road period. This is also why many Dungans have Arabic names."
The entire Muslim world has "Arabic names". Yet, only less than 10% of the Muslims in the world are Arabs. Is a European Bosniak with the name "Djevat" (from "Jawad"), or "Mehmet" (from "Muhammad") an Arab?
As stated in this entry, "the origins of Islam" have nothing to do with the Dungan population. This is poor wording. Also, Islam has not been around for "thousands of years", nor was the "silk road period" where the Arabs were trading on that route "thousands of years ago".
Islam amongst the Dungans is a combination of two factors:
1) Arab preachers along the Silk Road who were given freedom to preach by T'ang Emperor Gaozong.
2) Mass conversions to Islam by the Mongols, Berke Khan and the Golden Horde in particular, as well as mass conversions by the populations in their territories,I'm changing this erroneous statement in this Wiki entry. Thank you.
There's so much extra space at the bottom. Someone (please) fix it. 68.148.164.166 ( talk) 08:28, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Another claim is they called themselves 东岸人 when asked, without realizing the "asker"s were asking their ethnic group. Then the name Dong'an became Dungan by misinformation. -- 虞海 (Yú Hǎi) ( talk) 18:48, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
Looking at the history for Sep 17-18, 2011, one can see a large amount of (mostly sourced) material removed, and some (both sourced and un-sourced) material added, by User:Arash Shah and 14.104.179.19. I can't research this seriously at the moment, to figure what makes sense and what does not. But note, for example, the replacement of the census-derived numbers in the summary table with larger, round numbers, and adding Farsi among the language spoken (hardly common, I am sure). -- Vmenkov ( talk) 15:56, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
Per WP:Lead I have identified that this lede does not provide an accessible overview of the article's key points, without being too short, and so used the template {{Inadequate lead}} to tag the section for improvement. I hope that others will assist in addressing the numerous deficiencies within this article. Note: I also applied the Talk Header to this talk page... JDanek007 Talk 20:39, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
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