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Talk:Dublin tramways/archive 1
Great to see the article developing. On one point, I had my suspicions yesterday, and have now confirmed that the Howth coverage is incomplete, as there were two tram ventures concerning Howth, and two sets of trams, one running from the city to Howth Harbour, one running around the Hill. I will locate sources and post appropriately later. SeoR ( talk) 10:54, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
SeoR ( talk) 22:43, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
This DUTC ad lists 2 Sandymount routes, but doesn't mention either the Dollymount or College Gn./Whitehall routes. The inclusion of William Martin Murphy's name places it as early 1900s. How accurate is the 1910 date for the route card? Suckindiesel ( talk) 16:39, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
The picture shown in the ad represents Sackville Street ca1900, but the ad is newer. I have an original copy of this ad dated 1914. Two items in the ad will help to date it. First, Dartry did not open until 1905, when this extension was added to accommodate William Martin Murphy, who lived across the street from the Dartry depot. The second is the fact that C.W.Gordon died in 1915.
Since your copy of symbols chart is ca1911, there are several symbols that are not included. Except for the Fairview to Westland Row route, which is a white square with a diagonal red line, the others are still being debated by historians.
Regarding route history, may I suggest that you visit the Garaiste website. This is primarily a site dedicated to the study of Irish Buses, but since the trams are the direct antecedents of the buses, they have posted a great deal of information about the tram routes. Take a look at the forum on routes and you will see postings by 65 Donard. These should answer most of your questions about the various tram routes. You will notice that there was no number 27 tram route. 65 Donard has asked about tram tracks shown on maps that were never used on any of the known routes. I have said that as time permits, I will post an explanation regarding these "mystery" tracks. Dutcringsend ( talk) 04:05, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
A few words regarding the Garaiste website. May I suggest that you
start your search in the LUAS Forum, page four about half way down the page. There should be a brief discussion about tram depots and then a listing, street by street, of the various tram routes. I have made some comments on this forum that may be of interest to you. Next, go to the Routes Forum and read the section on tram routes 1937. 65 Donard and myself have an in depth discussion about tram routes #19, 19A and 20. These two forums should answer most of your questions regarding tram routes, but should you need further help, post either here or on the routes forum. 65 Donard and the other members of that forum have done an excellent job of researching the subject. Dutcringsend ( talk) 18:48, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
Initial information from notes, will seek more:
According to my notes, the DSDT was sold to the British Imperial Tramways Company in 1878, which raises a question about foundation date. SeoR ( talk) 21:45, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
And further to the above, the National Transport Museum of Ireland notes that "On 16th May 1896, Dublin's first electric trams began running between Haddington Road and Dalkey. Initially operated by the Dublin Southern District Tramways Company, the line was sold a few months later to the Dublin United Tramways Company, at that time running about 170 horse cars over 33 route miles." They go on to note that the DUTC (1896) soon began total electrification. SeoR ( talk) 21:51, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
And from a Luas report:
SeoR ( talk) 21:57, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
And from a little Google, the 1925 law allowing the DUTC to go into the bus business: [3] and on William M. Murphy:
SeoR ( talk) 22:07, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Are we sure that the Leixlip line even re-opened as an electric tramway in 1900, let alone that it was ever operated by the DUTC, post 1928? Some sources suggest that it closed in 1898 and that under the DUTC the line ended a half mile earlier in Lucan village rather than the original Spa Hotel. I can't find any ref to a DUTC tram service to Leixlip. see [ 1881 - 1900 route map] & [ 1900 - 1940 route map] Suckindiesel ( talk) 21:28, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Several hours later, & its no clearer. What about the Lucan, Leixlip & Cellbridge Steam Tramway, has anybody heard of it? Phillips Handy Atlas, 1890s [4] appears to show such a line. See also Spa Hotel entry for Lucan, Leixlip & Cellbridge Steam Tramway Suckindiesel ( talk) 23:28, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
That same article set does say "The Celbridge line was never built and the Leixlip line never extended beyond the bridge over the River Liffey." so perhaps a company was indeed promoting it but failed, as the people proposing Celbridge to Donadee certainly did, to gain enough support. SeoR ( talk) 12:47, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
The regauging was specified:
and the interconnection of the lines:
And continued operation of both acquirees was required:
And, interestingly, they were authorised to act as general suppliers of electricity to the towns and areas around the lines:
Detailed legislation indeed! SeoR ( talk) 13:15, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
used for the public lighting supply and they were located at Palmerstown and Lucan. When the ESB started supplying power to the DUTC from the Ringsend Converter Station, they installed electric meters on the high tension line to Lucan, both at the College Street Substation and at Fonthill Substation. A meter was also installed on the direct current feeder,located at the College Street Substation, that supplied the trolley wire at Conyngham Road. This way very accurate records could be kept of the power consumption of the line. Dutcringsend ( talk) 08:20, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
SeoR ( talk) 07:54, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
[8] [9]. What do we think? Gnevin ( talk) 08:21, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
The more we dig the stranger the formation appears to be [11] [12] Gnevin ( talk) 22:34, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
This image is a detail from a J. Valentine postcard, no. JV-83700, which according to [13] dates it as 1920. However, the Lucan cars look like the original steam tram, i.e. pre 1900, unlike the D&LER double-decker electrics, as in Image:Lucan Tram, 1907.jpg. The DUTC electric tram (route 24) dates it 1899 or later. What am I missing here? Suckindiesel ( talk) 13:12, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
car number with any accuracy, maybe you can supply the number. The car appears to be of Milnes construction and if that is the case, it should be easy to figure out which depot it was stored at when the picture was taken. This could be a Milnes trailer and only four of these were kept at Kingsbridge during this time period. Once an accurate time period is determined, you shouldn't have too much difficulty identifying the Lucan car. 206.128.65.135 ( talk) 02:13, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
was being kept at Cabra depot during time period. Dutcringsend ( talk) 22:33, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
A further section for notes on track, engines and passenger cars, electrical systems, etc.?
One little item, from
"The gauge of the Dublin Trams was not exactly 5'3" as stipulated but five foot two and three sixteenth inches to facilitate the running of ordinary railway rolling stock." Curious... 85.117.156.200 ( talk) 20:33, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Dutcringsend ( talk) 21:17, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Since they ran on bullhead rail, they were prone to derailment. The wheel profile was finally increased to a 1-1/8 inch flange depth.
Dutcringsend ( talk) 03:14, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
I will post the information here. The picture of car 80 is not ca1915 it is most likely pre1903. The absence of the symbol and colored lights, introduced in 1903, are the first clue. The narrow side boards used to indicate destination and the enamel plate at the end of the car with the prominent initials P-P are another clue to the circa. A more subtle clue is the arrangement of the track at that end of Sackville Street. This car was built in October 1898 and was kept at the old Kingsbridge depot on Victoria Quay. In November 1926, car 80 became a single deck car with a raised body to allow it to operate on the Clontarf line during heavy flooding, thus earning it the nickname of the Submarine Car. It was used to rescue stranded tramcars that were disabled because of the high water. Dutcringsend ( talk) 08:04, 15 September 2008 (UTC) User :Dutcringsend can you provide any links or reference for this info, i would like to start adding it Gnevin ( talk) 23:49, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
And the above leads to a thought - also launched in or about 1872 were lines in Cork and Belfast, maybe they could have articles too (Cork had a mixed history, the first lines only running 1872-1875, then again from the 1890's to 1931, but Belfast grew steadily, although never as extensively as Dublin.´
And we do need to sort out the starting year. All sources so far seem to point to line-laying in 1871, and service launch in 1872. Albeit I do recall something about tracks being tested on the Quays around 1867. But I will look further into sources (the source we have for the mention re. 1865 is a literary analytical work, and the free version does not include details of the underlying source - I will try to get the book at the Gilbert when there is time). And I also yesterday came across reference to a book on this very topic, which sounds like it covers the full timespan (a similar book for Belfast only started partway through the tram system history), will try to get this also (and will post details here at next airport). SeoR ( talk) 08:01, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
Suckindiesel ( talk) 15:37, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
an interesting paper weight. Two round discs, sweated together. The tram enthusiast didn't have a clue as to what it was. I looked it over and when I left with a friend of mine, I told him that the "paper weight" was the corporate seal used by the City of Dublin Tramway Company of 1967. The enthusiast died many years ago, I wonder if his widow still has the paper weight? It would be nice to know that some relic from this short lived company has survived.
Dublin Tramways is that they were essential American in origin. For example, the first practical line operating in 1872 was built by the American contractor Fisher and Parrish. All of the original electric equipment and engineering was from the USA. All of the power stations, Ballsbridge, Clontarf and Ringsend were all equipped with American machinery. The only major exception being the Willans engines at Ballsbridge. From 1895 until at least 1910, all of the electrical engineering design work was carried out by expatriate American engineer, Horace F. Parshall.
used in Dublin were used on the Bristol Tramways first. Also, when the Glasgow Tramways built a temporary power station in 1898, they used the same type of engine generating sets installed at Clontarf. All of these installations had one thing in common, Horace F. Parshall.
he was both the secretary and manager of the North Dublin Tramways. He appears to have started with the company in 1876. There is an excellent chance that he had first hand knowledge of the line laid in Aston's Quay by the City of Dublin Tramways Company in 1867. Dutcringsend ( talk) 06:30, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
[15] page 127 has a nice paragraph about the speed limit imposed . Where do you think this should go ? Gnevin ( talk) 00:09, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
These speed limits, with a few exceptions, remained in force until at least 1925. Even at that date, most facing points, all curves of less 66 foot radius and all tramline crossings were to be run at 4 miles per hour. Westland Row and Merrion Row could be run at 5 miles per hour and when running down grade on Mount Brown and Cork Hill the speed was reduced to 3 miles per hour. The highest speeds were allowed on the Dalkey line at 16 miles per hour. These were the official speeds imposed by the DUTC, but from conversations that I have had with former employees of the Company, these speeds were exceeded when conditions permitted. These relatively slow speeds were not meant to be a source of frustration to the travelling public or to the DUTC, but contributed to safety and lower maintainance costs. Keep in mind that except for regenerative emergency brakes, that only mechnical brakes were used to stop the cars. The use of track brakes came at a later date. Even at these slow speeds accidents could not be prevented. The worst one occurred on February 1, 1914, when car #295, running to Dalkey, encountered a malfunction in the Tierney-Malone point shifter. The front bogies went one direction and the rear bogies another direction, this resulted in the car tipping over on its side and being impaled on the railings of the Holles Street Hospital. This resulted in the death of a woman passenger and injury to 22 others. Under most conditions the slow running speed gave plenty of time for the points to operate. To answer your question, this could be regarded as operating conditions on the various routes and as such could be discussed under that heading. You could also start a new heading to discuss the various types of rolling stock used by the DUTC and put it under operating restrictions. Dutcringsend ( talk) 17:31, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
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Talk:Dublin tramways/archive 1
Great to see the article developing. On one point, I had my suspicions yesterday, and have now confirmed that the Howth coverage is incomplete, as there were two tram ventures concerning Howth, and two sets of trams, one running from the city to Howth Harbour, one running around the Hill. I will locate sources and post appropriately later. SeoR ( talk) 10:54, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
SeoR ( talk) 22:43, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
This DUTC ad lists 2 Sandymount routes, but doesn't mention either the Dollymount or College Gn./Whitehall routes. The inclusion of William Martin Murphy's name places it as early 1900s. How accurate is the 1910 date for the route card? Suckindiesel ( talk) 16:39, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
The picture shown in the ad represents Sackville Street ca1900, but the ad is newer. I have an original copy of this ad dated 1914. Two items in the ad will help to date it. First, Dartry did not open until 1905, when this extension was added to accommodate William Martin Murphy, who lived across the street from the Dartry depot. The second is the fact that C.W.Gordon died in 1915.
Since your copy of symbols chart is ca1911, there are several symbols that are not included. Except for the Fairview to Westland Row route, which is a white square with a diagonal red line, the others are still being debated by historians.
Regarding route history, may I suggest that you visit the Garaiste website. This is primarily a site dedicated to the study of Irish Buses, but since the trams are the direct antecedents of the buses, they have posted a great deal of information about the tram routes. Take a look at the forum on routes and you will see postings by 65 Donard. These should answer most of your questions about the various tram routes. You will notice that there was no number 27 tram route. 65 Donard has asked about tram tracks shown on maps that were never used on any of the known routes. I have said that as time permits, I will post an explanation regarding these "mystery" tracks. Dutcringsend ( talk) 04:05, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
A few words regarding the Garaiste website. May I suggest that you
start your search in the LUAS Forum, page four about half way down the page. There should be a brief discussion about tram depots and then a listing, street by street, of the various tram routes. I have made some comments on this forum that may be of interest to you. Next, go to the Routes Forum and read the section on tram routes 1937. 65 Donard and myself have an in depth discussion about tram routes #19, 19A and 20. These two forums should answer most of your questions regarding tram routes, but should you need further help, post either here or on the routes forum. 65 Donard and the other members of that forum have done an excellent job of researching the subject. Dutcringsend ( talk) 18:48, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
Initial information from notes, will seek more:
According to my notes, the DSDT was sold to the British Imperial Tramways Company in 1878, which raises a question about foundation date. SeoR ( talk) 21:45, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
And further to the above, the National Transport Museum of Ireland notes that "On 16th May 1896, Dublin's first electric trams began running between Haddington Road and Dalkey. Initially operated by the Dublin Southern District Tramways Company, the line was sold a few months later to the Dublin United Tramways Company, at that time running about 170 horse cars over 33 route miles." They go on to note that the DUTC (1896) soon began total electrification. SeoR ( talk) 21:51, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
And from a Luas report:
SeoR ( talk) 21:57, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
And from a little Google, the 1925 law allowing the DUTC to go into the bus business: [3] and on William M. Murphy:
SeoR ( talk) 22:07, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Are we sure that the Leixlip line even re-opened as an electric tramway in 1900, let alone that it was ever operated by the DUTC, post 1928? Some sources suggest that it closed in 1898 and that under the DUTC the line ended a half mile earlier in Lucan village rather than the original Spa Hotel. I can't find any ref to a DUTC tram service to Leixlip. see [ 1881 - 1900 route map] & [ 1900 - 1940 route map] Suckindiesel ( talk) 21:28, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Several hours later, & its no clearer. What about the Lucan, Leixlip & Cellbridge Steam Tramway, has anybody heard of it? Phillips Handy Atlas, 1890s [4] appears to show such a line. See also Spa Hotel entry for Lucan, Leixlip & Cellbridge Steam Tramway Suckindiesel ( talk) 23:28, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
That same article set does say "The Celbridge line was never built and the Leixlip line never extended beyond the bridge over the River Liffey." so perhaps a company was indeed promoting it but failed, as the people proposing Celbridge to Donadee certainly did, to gain enough support. SeoR ( talk) 12:47, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
The regauging was specified:
and the interconnection of the lines:
And continued operation of both acquirees was required:
And, interestingly, they were authorised to act as general suppliers of electricity to the towns and areas around the lines:
Detailed legislation indeed! SeoR ( talk) 13:15, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
used for the public lighting supply and they were located at Palmerstown and Lucan. When the ESB started supplying power to the DUTC from the Ringsend Converter Station, they installed electric meters on the high tension line to Lucan, both at the College Street Substation and at Fonthill Substation. A meter was also installed on the direct current feeder,located at the College Street Substation, that supplied the trolley wire at Conyngham Road. This way very accurate records could be kept of the power consumption of the line. Dutcringsend ( talk) 08:20, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
SeoR ( talk) 07:54, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
[8] [9]. What do we think? Gnevin ( talk) 08:21, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
The more we dig the stranger the formation appears to be [11] [12] Gnevin ( talk) 22:34, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
This image is a detail from a J. Valentine postcard, no. JV-83700, which according to [13] dates it as 1920. However, the Lucan cars look like the original steam tram, i.e. pre 1900, unlike the D&LER double-decker electrics, as in Image:Lucan Tram, 1907.jpg. The DUTC electric tram (route 24) dates it 1899 or later. What am I missing here? Suckindiesel ( talk) 13:12, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
car number with any accuracy, maybe you can supply the number. The car appears to be of Milnes construction and if that is the case, it should be easy to figure out which depot it was stored at when the picture was taken. This could be a Milnes trailer and only four of these were kept at Kingsbridge during this time period. Once an accurate time period is determined, you shouldn't have too much difficulty identifying the Lucan car. 206.128.65.135 ( talk) 02:13, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
was being kept at Cabra depot during time period. Dutcringsend ( talk) 22:33, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
A further section for notes on track, engines and passenger cars, electrical systems, etc.?
One little item, from
"The gauge of the Dublin Trams was not exactly 5'3" as stipulated but five foot two and three sixteenth inches to facilitate the running of ordinary railway rolling stock." Curious... 85.117.156.200 ( talk) 20:33, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Dutcringsend ( talk) 21:17, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Since they ran on bullhead rail, they were prone to derailment. The wheel profile was finally increased to a 1-1/8 inch flange depth.
Dutcringsend ( talk) 03:14, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
I will post the information here. The picture of car 80 is not ca1915 it is most likely pre1903. The absence of the symbol and colored lights, introduced in 1903, are the first clue. The narrow side boards used to indicate destination and the enamel plate at the end of the car with the prominent initials P-P are another clue to the circa. A more subtle clue is the arrangement of the track at that end of Sackville Street. This car was built in October 1898 and was kept at the old Kingsbridge depot on Victoria Quay. In November 1926, car 80 became a single deck car with a raised body to allow it to operate on the Clontarf line during heavy flooding, thus earning it the nickname of the Submarine Car. It was used to rescue stranded tramcars that were disabled because of the high water. Dutcringsend ( talk) 08:04, 15 September 2008 (UTC) User :Dutcringsend can you provide any links or reference for this info, i would like to start adding it Gnevin ( talk) 23:49, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
And the above leads to a thought - also launched in or about 1872 were lines in Cork and Belfast, maybe they could have articles too (Cork had a mixed history, the first lines only running 1872-1875, then again from the 1890's to 1931, but Belfast grew steadily, although never as extensively as Dublin.´
And we do need to sort out the starting year. All sources so far seem to point to line-laying in 1871, and service launch in 1872. Albeit I do recall something about tracks being tested on the Quays around 1867. But I will look further into sources (the source we have for the mention re. 1865 is a literary analytical work, and the free version does not include details of the underlying source - I will try to get the book at the Gilbert when there is time). And I also yesterday came across reference to a book on this very topic, which sounds like it covers the full timespan (a similar book for Belfast only started partway through the tram system history), will try to get this also (and will post details here at next airport). SeoR ( talk) 08:01, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
Suckindiesel ( talk) 15:37, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
an interesting paper weight. Two round discs, sweated together. The tram enthusiast didn't have a clue as to what it was. I looked it over and when I left with a friend of mine, I told him that the "paper weight" was the corporate seal used by the City of Dublin Tramway Company of 1967. The enthusiast died many years ago, I wonder if his widow still has the paper weight? It would be nice to know that some relic from this short lived company has survived.
Dublin Tramways is that they were essential American in origin. For example, the first practical line operating in 1872 was built by the American contractor Fisher and Parrish. All of the original electric equipment and engineering was from the USA. All of the power stations, Ballsbridge, Clontarf and Ringsend were all equipped with American machinery. The only major exception being the Willans engines at Ballsbridge. From 1895 until at least 1910, all of the electrical engineering design work was carried out by expatriate American engineer, Horace F. Parshall.
used in Dublin were used on the Bristol Tramways first. Also, when the Glasgow Tramways built a temporary power station in 1898, they used the same type of engine generating sets installed at Clontarf. All of these installations had one thing in common, Horace F. Parshall.
he was both the secretary and manager of the North Dublin Tramways. He appears to have started with the company in 1876. There is an excellent chance that he had first hand knowledge of the line laid in Aston's Quay by the City of Dublin Tramways Company in 1867. Dutcringsend ( talk) 06:30, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
[15] page 127 has a nice paragraph about the speed limit imposed . Where do you think this should go ? Gnevin ( talk) 00:09, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
These speed limits, with a few exceptions, remained in force until at least 1925. Even at that date, most facing points, all curves of less 66 foot radius and all tramline crossings were to be run at 4 miles per hour. Westland Row and Merrion Row could be run at 5 miles per hour and when running down grade on Mount Brown and Cork Hill the speed was reduced to 3 miles per hour. The highest speeds were allowed on the Dalkey line at 16 miles per hour. These were the official speeds imposed by the DUTC, but from conversations that I have had with former employees of the Company, these speeds were exceeded when conditions permitted. These relatively slow speeds were not meant to be a source of frustration to the travelling public or to the DUTC, but contributed to safety and lower maintainance costs. Keep in mind that except for regenerative emergency brakes, that only mechnical brakes were used to stop the cars. The use of track brakes came at a later date. Even at these slow speeds accidents could not be prevented. The worst one occurred on February 1, 1914, when car #295, running to Dalkey, encountered a malfunction in the Tierney-Malone point shifter. The front bogies went one direction and the rear bogies another direction, this resulted in the car tipping over on its side and being impaled on the railings of the Holles Street Hospital. This resulted in the death of a woman passenger and injury to 22 others. Under most conditions the slow running speed gave plenty of time for the points to operate. To answer your question, this could be regarded as operating conditions on the various routes and as such could be discussed under that heading. You could also start a new heading to discuss the various types of rolling stock used by the DUTC and put it under operating restrictions. Dutcringsend ( talk) 17:31, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
An image used in this article,
File:Dublinlockout.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at
Wikimedia Commons for the following reason: Deletion requests June 2011
| |
A discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. If you feel the deletion can be contested then please do so (
commons:COM:SPEEDY has further information). Otherwise consider finding a replacement image before deletion occurs.
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