This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Dublin article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1,
2,
3Auto-archiving period: 730 days
![]() |
![]() | This article is written in Hiberno-English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, realise, travelled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
![]() | Dublin was one of the Geography and places good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||||
Current status: Delisted good article |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The current and stable version (12 May 2022) of the lead refers to the change of control of Dublin (from Hiberno-Norse to Anglo-Norman influence) after the Anglo-Norman invasion of Ireland (including Strongbow's seizure of Dublin in 1170). To support this text, the lead (and the body) refers to Dickson (2014) Dublin: The Making of a Capital City. Who summarises this period in his preface.
Of the 11th and early 12th centuries, Dickson writes (of Hiberno-Norse Dublin) that:
Of the late 12th century onwards, Dickson writes (of Anglo-Norman Dublin) that:
Despite the fact that this source (and many others covering this period of the history of Dublin and Ireland and supporting this article) refer to the term "Norman", an editor seems determined to excise the term "Norman" from the lead of this article. [1] [2]. (And, indeed, from other articles [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8].) While I have attempted to engage the editor on their talk page, as this is (now) a discussion about article content, the available references, and how those references are reflected in the content, the I felt it best to open a thread here.
In short, it is my position that the majority of sources (including the sources which support this article and its lead) refer to the expansion of Dublin (to a city and the principal city) as happening after the Norman invasion (and Norse decline) in Ireland. And hence that, I believe, is a perfectly reasonable thing for the article to say. As it currently does.
I'd welcome other thoughts. If other editors feel that using the term "Norman" is somehow not representative of the sources (or for some reason confusing as the editor seems to believe), then I'm happy to help with compromise wording. But, right now, I think the text of the lead is an accurate reflection of the sources, of common terminology, and of the established facts. Cheers. Guliolopez ( talk) 20:14, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
Minor point, the recent 33.1C record high for Dublin was at the Phoenix Park station, not Dublin Airport. Does the table need to be re-titled? Sarah777 ( talk) 09:53, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
I'm continuing here a conversation originally started on User Talk:CeltBrowne; if anyone has anything to contribute don't be afraid to jump in
@ Guliolopez: As his article touches upon, Arthur Charles Fox-Davies was/is considered one of the foremost authorities on Heraldry in the UK (and Ireland). He took the same standards he applied in the court room to Heraldry, believing that Heraldry needed to be held to a highly rigorous standard. Subsequently, his books became a sort of "bible" within the Heraldry world and are still referred to today. Essentially, Fox-Davies is a master-level expert, and I trust his research into heraldry over DublinCity.ie. Respectfully, councillors and bureaucrats get heraldry wrong all the time; for example Mayo County Council still uses a rendering (blazon in correct terminology) of their Coat of Arms taken from the early 2000s Internet. That rendering contains a major error in that it has a tree in the crest (top) instead of a Rose, which is supposed to represent the Virgin Mary and the apparition at Knock. That's just one of many examples of County Councils getting their own Coat of Arms wrong I could cite. The point I'm making is that people with no knowledge of heraldry make mistakes all the time, including government bodies. So again I'm inclined to defer to Fox-Davies.
Secondly, as far as creating a new file goes, my motivation there would be to create something superior to File:Coat-of-arms-of-Dublin.svg, which an .svg recreation of File:Dublin city coa.png, created in 2006. With respect to the creator, File:Dublin city coa.png is drawn in a clip art and cartoon style that is reflective of the decade it was produced in. Replacing it was a part of the motivation of creating File:Coat of Arms of Dublin, Ireland.png. If having an accurate depiction of the Coat of Arms of the Mayor of Dublin is important to you and others, I can create a heraldry accurate rendering and we can get this right, and well done. If I'm reading you and the DublinCity.ie references correctly, there actually shouldn't be any supporters (people) in the Coat of Arms of the Mayor, so that makes File:Coat-of-arms-of-Dublin.svg inaccurate for representing the Mayor as well. CeltBrowne ( talk) 18:37, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
DUBLIN, City of. Azure, three castles argent, flammant proper. Supportcrs: On either side a female figure proper, vested gules, lined or, that on the dexter side holding in her exterior hand a sword erect proper, pommel and hilt or, and that on the sinister a pair of scales, and each holding in her interior hand a branch of laurel. Motto. — " Obedientia civium urbis felicitas." [Recorded in Ulster's Office Visitation of Dublin, 1607.] The dexter figure typifies "Law," and the sinister "Justice." The arms are almost invariably surmounted by the fur cap of office (worn by the sword-bearer), and behind the shield are usually placed in saltire the sword and mace of the city.
Hiya. Wow indeed. Certainly a lot there. Nicely done. In terms of:
Delighted to hear input from others. Mine is only one opinion after all. Hence this thread. But I don't see why we'd ignore/override the current city council sources. For "mine is better designed (than that used/published by the council itself)" type reasons.... Guliolopez ( talk) 01:48, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
I sent an e-mail to the office of the Chief Herald of Ireland on Monday morning. In addition to hearing nothing back so far, I got an automated e-mail stating that the office will not carry out any research any behalf of anyone, so I fear they may not respond at all. If that is the case, the viewpoints of members of Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology may be helpful, so I've made a request on their talk page. CeltBrowne ( talk) 21:02, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
The figure given for the Metropolitan Area is that of County Dublin as a whole, according to the 2022 census. That is distinct from the city, which is the subject of this article. The population of the Greater Dublin Area is that of County Dublin combined with Counties Kildare, Meath and Wicklow. GDA is a wider transport and planning term, that is not specific to the city. I'd suggest leave both those figures out of this infobox. Iveagh Gardens ( talk) 05:44, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
There's been a bit of back and forth on this. I would agree with Guliolopez that we should leave out the Greater Dublin Area. That figure includes the outer reaches of counties Louth, Meath and Wicklow. What does the population of Oldcastle, County Meath, or Carnew mentioned by Guliolopez, have to do with the city of Dublin? On the other hand, BaronNethercross refers to Manchester and Toronto, where population figures are given for the Greater Manchester Built-up Area and Greater Toronto Area respectively. However, we should consider independently whether this figure is relevant to the city of Dublin. Both those are sourced in their respective articles from their respective censuses, whereas the article for Greater Dublin Area begins by describing it as an informal term. It is defined once in legislation, in relation to the Dublin Transport Authority, but it is not a term used in census statistics. I'll grant that there's one source given, from Dublin Chamber; yet I'd tend to defer to the CSO in defining population terms in Ireland. Iveagh Gardens ( talk) 14:08, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
I understand the point and appreciate both sides. But simply because a town is at some distance from the city, doesn't mean it can't be considered relevant to Dublin. All metropolitan areas are, in a sense, arbitrary. The Greater Dublin Area including Meath, Wicklow, and Kildare has been referred to by The Irish Times pretty often since the year 2000, see here, and here. This is the paper of record. I'd argue that leaving out the GDA reference reduces the usefulness of the Dublin page. It is one line. BaronNethercross ( talk) 14:45, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
Clarify. FWIW, and noting that I didn't pay as much attention to the title assigned to this discussion thread as perhaps I should have, I have zero issue with mentioning the GDA (and its population) in the infobox. As noted by others, there is plenty of precedent and a fairly established convention for having "metro area" populations in city infoboxes. And the summary nature of the infobox means that any lack of clarity (around the scope/expanse of the "metro area") is pretty much a given. My issue is with mentioning the population of the GDA in the lead. Which is why I made this edit/rv. Since somewhat reversed. As I don't think it's clear enough (and there isn't space enough to explain) that the GDA is actually a very broad area. Covering 4 (or 5?) of the 26 counties in the state. Including towns/places/rural areas that are significantly removed (in every sense) from Dublin city. Guliolopez ( talk) 12:57, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
Should “pronounced [ˈbˠalʲə aːhə ˈclʲiə] or [ˌbʲlʲaː ˈclʲiə]” be replaced by “pronounced [ˌbʲlʲaː ˈclʲiə]” in the lead? I am only aware of the second pronunciation hence why I came here (to the talk page), I feel like the first pronunciation may be hyperforeign, evolving from L2 spelling pronunciation(?), but I am not a native speaker so I don’t know if the first pronunciation is used by natives in certain regions. 2A01:B340:86:73BB:D895:C551:8740:9C3F ( talk) 17:05, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
In any Slavic language "Dublin" would mean "place of oaks" and it's not an unusal toponym in Slavic realms. It is further corroborated by the central old quarter of "Crumlin", compare Kremlin in Moscow - which actually means stronghold/fortification. Oaks were important trees to both the old Gauls and to Slavs as well. How come Slavic? When? Well, considering "Baile Átha Cliath" was the original Gaelic name and "Dublin" came about with the Vikings, one cannot but point out that in some sources Slavic Vikings accompanied the Norse on their war on the British Isles including Ireland. Denmark was partly inhabited by Slavs and bi-cultural and bi-lingual. (More in Anne Elisabeth Jensen's book "Dania Slavica") and the Danish Slavs were subjects of the Danish kings. In Saxo Grammaticus we can read of how Slavs fought for the Danish king as early as the Battle of Bravallir (est. around 750 AD). This should be considered and researched. Antique2020 ( talk) 12:42, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
A lot of the images in this article are quite old (see temple bar and grafton street in the culture section for example). As I live in Dublin, it'd be pretty easy for me to take new pictures of the areas and streets shown. Should I go ahead with this? Normally I'd be bold but this would be a significant change to the article so I'd like to hear some opinions first. LynxesDesmond 🐈 12:19, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
I've noticed that a strange cross symbol is at the top of the article in the latest revision, and I don't know why it's there.
If someone could explain why it's there, that would be great. († is the symbol) AU Fan V2 ( talk) 02:32, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Dublin article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1,
2,
3Auto-archiving period: 730 days
![]() |
![]() | This article is written in Hiberno-English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, realise, travelled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
![]() | Dublin was one of the Geography and places good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||||
Current status: Delisted good article |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The current and stable version (12 May 2022) of the lead refers to the change of control of Dublin (from Hiberno-Norse to Anglo-Norman influence) after the Anglo-Norman invasion of Ireland (including Strongbow's seizure of Dublin in 1170). To support this text, the lead (and the body) refers to Dickson (2014) Dublin: The Making of a Capital City. Who summarises this period in his preface.
Of the 11th and early 12th centuries, Dickson writes (of Hiberno-Norse Dublin) that:
Of the late 12th century onwards, Dickson writes (of Anglo-Norman Dublin) that:
Despite the fact that this source (and many others covering this period of the history of Dublin and Ireland and supporting this article) refer to the term "Norman", an editor seems determined to excise the term "Norman" from the lead of this article. [1] [2]. (And, indeed, from other articles [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8].) While I have attempted to engage the editor on their talk page, as this is (now) a discussion about article content, the available references, and how those references are reflected in the content, the I felt it best to open a thread here.
In short, it is my position that the majority of sources (including the sources which support this article and its lead) refer to the expansion of Dublin (to a city and the principal city) as happening after the Norman invasion (and Norse decline) in Ireland. And hence that, I believe, is a perfectly reasonable thing for the article to say. As it currently does.
I'd welcome other thoughts. If other editors feel that using the term "Norman" is somehow not representative of the sources (or for some reason confusing as the editor seems to believe), then I'm happy to help with compromise wording. But, right now, I think the text of the lead is an accurate reflection of the sources, of common terminology, and of the established facts. Cheers. Guliolopez ( talk) 20:14, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
Minor point, the recent 33.1C record high for Dublin was at the Phoenix Park station, not Dublin Airport. Does the table need to be re-titled? Sarah777 ( talk) 09:53, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
I'm continuing here a conversation originally started on User Talk:CeltBrowne; if anyone has anything to contribute don't be afraid to jump in
@ Guliolopez: As his article touches upon, Arthur Charles Fox-Davies was/is considered one of the foremost authorities on Heraldry in the UK (and Ireland). He took the same standards he applied in the court room to Heraldry, believing that Heraldry needed to be held to a highly rigorous standard. Subsequently, his books became a sort of "bible" within the Heraldry world and are still referred to today. Essentially, Fox-Davies is a master-level expert, and I trust his research into heraldry over DublinCity.ie. Respectfully, councillors and bureaucrats get heraldry wrong all the time; for example Mayo County Council still uses a rendering (blazon in correct terminology) of their Coat of Arms taken from the early 2000s Internet. That rendering contains a major error in that it has a tree in the crest (top) instead of a Rose, which is supposed to represent the Virgin Mary and the apparition at Knock. That's just one of many examples of County Councils getting their own Coat of Arms wrong I could cite. The point I'm making is that people with no knowledge of heraldry make mistakes all the time, including government bodies. So again I'm inclined to defer to Fox-Davies.
Secondly, as far as creating a new file goes, my motivation there would be to create something superior to File:Coat-of-arms-of-Dublin.svg, which an .svg recreation of File:Dublin city coa.png, created in 2006. With respect to the creator, File:Dublin city coa.png is drawn in a clip art and cartoon style that is reflective of the decade it was produced in. Replacing it was a part of the motivation of creating File:Coat of Arms of Dublin, Ireland.png. If having an accurate depiction of the Coat of Arms of the Mayor of Dublin is important to you and others, I can create a heraldry accurate rendering and we can get this right, and well done. If I'm reading you and the DublinCity.ie references correctly, there actually shouldn't be any supporters (people) in the Coat of Arms of the Mayor, so that makes File:Coat-of-arms-of-Dublin.svg inaccurate for representing the Mayor as well. CeltBrowne ( talk) 18:37, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
DUBLIN, City of. Azure, three castles argent, flammant proper. Supportcrs: On either side a female figure proper, vested gules, lined or, that on the dexter side holding in her exterior hand a sword erect proper, pommel and hilt or, and that on the sinister a pair of scales, and each holding in her interior hand a branch of laurel. Motto. — " Obedientia civium urbis felicitas." [Recorded in Ulster's Office Visitation of Dublin, 1607.] The dexter figure typifies "Law," and the sinister "Justice." The arms are almost invariably surmounted by the fur cap of office (worn by the sword-bearer), and behind the shield are usually placed in saltire the sword and mace of the city.
Hiya. Wow indeed. Certainly a lot there. Nicely done. In terms of:
Delighted to hear input from others. Mine is only one opinion after all. Hence this thread. But I don't see why we'd ignore/override the current city council sources. For "mine is better designed (than that used/published by the council itself)" type reasons.... Guliolopez ( talk) 01:48, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
I sent an e-mail to the office of the Chief Herald of Ireland on Monday morning. In addition to hearing nothing back so far, I got an automated e-mail stating that the office will not carry out any research any behalf of anyone, so I fear they may not respond at all. If that is the case, the viewpoints of members of Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology may be helpful, so I've made a request on their talk page. CeltBrowne ( talk) 21:02, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
The figure given for the Metropolitan Area is that of County Dublin as a whole, according to the 2022 census. That is distinct from the city, which is the subject of this article. The population of the Greater Dublin Area is that of County Dublin combined with Counties Kildare, Meath and Wicklow. GDA is a wider transport and planning term, that is not specific to the city. I'd suggest leave both those figures out of this infobox. Iveagh Gardens ( talk) 05:44, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
There's been a bit of back and forth on this. I would agree with Guliolopez that we should leave out the Greater Dublin Area. That figure includes the outer reaches of counties Louth, Meath and Wicklow. What does the population of Oldcastle, County Meath, or Carnew mentioned by Guliolopez, have to do with the city of Dublin? On the other hand, BaronNethercross refers to Manchester and Toronto, where population figures are given for the Greater Manchester Built-up Area and Greater Toronto Area respectively. However, we should consider independently whether this figure is relevant to the city of Dublin. Both those are sourced in their respective articles from their respective censuses, whereas the article for Greater Dublin Area begins by describing it as an informal term. It is defined once in legislation, in relation to the Dublin Transport Authority, but it is not a term used in census statistics. I'll grant that there's one source given, from Dublin Chamber; yet I'd tend to defer to the CSO in defining population terms in Ireland. Iveagh Gardens ( talk) 14:08, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
I understand the point and appreciate both sides. But simply because a town is at some distance from the city, doesn't mean it can't be considered relevant to Dublin. All metropolitan areas are, in a sense, arbitrary. The Greater Dublin Area including Meath, Wicklow, and Kildare has been referred to by The Irish Times pretty often since the year 2000, see here, and here. This is the paper of record. I'd argue that leaving out the GDA reference reduces the usefulness of the Dublin page. It is one line. BaronNethercross ( talk) 14:45, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
Clarify. FWIW, and noting that I didn't pay as much attention to the title assigned to this discussion thread as perhaps I should have, I have zero issue with mentioning the GDA (and its population) in the infobox. As noted by others, there is plenty of precedent and a fairly established convention for having "metro area" populations in city infoboxes. And the summary nature of the infobox means that any lack of clarity (around the scope/expanse of the "metro area") is pretty much a given. My issue is with mentioning the population of the GDA in the lead. Which is why I made this edit/rv. Since somewhat reversed. As I don't think it's clear enough (and there isn't space enough to explain) that the GDA is actually a very broad area. Covering 4 (or 5?) of the 26 counties in the state. Including towns/places/rural areas that are significantly removed (in every sense) from Dublin city. Guliolopez ( talk) 12:57, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
Should “pronounced [ˈbˠalʲə aːhə ˈclʲiə] or [ˌbʲlʲaː ˈclʲiə]” be replaced by “pronounced [ˌbʲlʲaː ˈclʲiə]” in the lead? I am only aware of the second pronunciation hence why I came here (to the talk page), I feel like the first pronunciation may be hyperforeign, evolving from L2 spelling pronunciation(?), but I am not a native speaker so I don’t know if the first pronunciation is used by natives in certain regions. 2A01:B340:86:73BB:D895:C551:8740:9C3F ( talk) 17:05, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
In any Slavic language "Dublin" would mean "place of oaks" and it's not an unusal toponym in Slavic realms. It is further corroborated by the central old quarter of "Crumlin", compare Kremlin in Moscow - which actually means stronghold/fortification. Oaks were important trees to both the old Gauls and to Slavs as well. How come Slavic? When? Well, considering "Baile Átha Cliath" was the original Gaelic name and "Dublin" came about with the Vikings, one cannot but point out that in some sources Slavic Vikings accompanied the Norse on their war on the British Isles including Ireland. Denmark was partly inhabited by Slavs and bi-cultural and bi-lingual. (More in Anne Elisabeth Jensen's book "Dania Slavica") and the Danish Slavs were subjects of the Danish kings. In Saxo Grammaticus we can read of how Slavs fought for the Danish king as early as the Battle of Bravallir (est. around 750 AD). This should be considered and researched. Antique2020 ( talk) 12:42, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
A lot of the images in this article are quite old (see temple bar and grafton street in the culture section for example). As I live in Dublin, it'd be pretty easy for me to take new pictures of the areas and streets shown. Should I go ahead with this? Normally I'd be bold but this would be a significant change to the article so I'd like to hear some opinions first. LynxesDesmond 🐈 12:19, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
I've noticed that a strange cross symbol is at the top of the article in the latest revision, and I don't know why it's there.
If someone could explain why it's there, that would be great. († is the symbol) AU Fan V2 ( talk) 02:32, 7 January 2024 (UTC)