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As discussed on p.180
http://books.google.com/books?id=m3C67i5UZj8C&pg=PA180
of "Analyzing Bach Cantatas" by Eric Thomas Chafe (c: 2000) , Oxford University Press ,
http://www.amazon.com/Analyzing-Bach-Cantatas-Eric-Chafe/dp/019512099X
the text of the final chorale of bwv077 was not indicated by Bach , and may be
"Du stellst, Herr Jesu, selber dich" or "Herr Jesu ! du stellst selbsten dich" (+more)
or , alternatively , "Herr, durch den Glauben wohn in mir" (+more) depending on which
of two chorale texts by David Denicke was chosen by the music publisher
(see the reference listed at google books) .
I note that the current wikipedia article cites a different (and earlier) source for the chosen text , but I am unable to help in reconciling this difference .
The issue of the chorale text is not just "academic" , since at least one recording ,
that by Gustav Leonhardt (c: 1978) , and re-published by Teldec in 1999
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005Q0UTK0/
as part of their Bach 2000 compilation , used "Du stellst, Herr Jesu, selber dich" .
(The cited amazon product is not a CD , but contains the same music as
the corresponding CD from the Bach 2000 release) . Other recordings have
been made with the alternative text "Herr, durch den Glauben wohn in mir" .
The Leonhardt version is online here ... just the final chorale
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPudq8WknB4&t=890
A Helmuth Rilling (probably c: 1983) version is also online here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlUycfBPcx8&t=912
but it uses the text "Herr, durch den Glauben wohn in mir"
http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Cantatas-77-79-Rilling/dp/B00003OP4S/
As the text of the final chorale of bwv077 is not "unique" , and there may be two or more "accepted" choices (one of which has 2 variants for the first line , which text is usually "the title" of the chorale) , the wikipedia article might be improved if these details were explained , and the 2 variants of the opening line of the alternative (older ?) chorale were listed ...
I leave it to the wikipedia editors to decide if and how to use this suggestion , and to make any changes they deem necessary to the article .
mgt220 at yahoo.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.106.152.64 ( talk) 01:09, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
I have done some further investigation , which may be helpful .
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV77.htm
lists the 7 recordings known (by that site) for this cantata ...
6 of these are part of [attempted] complete Bach
Cantata sets , and are also listed on the article page as
selected recordings ; the set by Emiko Ohmura is sung in
Japanese , and the only reference I have does not document
the chorus text .
For the remaining 6 recordings , the final chorale text is :
[http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005Q0UTK0/ Leonhardt - Du stellst, Herr Jesu, selber dich ]
[http://www.amazon.com/Cantatas-v13-Suzuki/dp/tracks/B0000521W3/ Suzuki - Du stellst, mein Jesu, selber dich + zum Vorbild ]
[http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00003OP4S/ Rilling - Herr, durch den Glauben wohn in mir ] (trk 6)
[http://www.amazon.de/Bach-Edition-Vol-21/dp/tracks/B00004XPLF/ Leusink - Herr, durch den Glauben ( ... ? ) ] (disk 3)
[http://www.amazon.com/Cantatas-6-BWV-33-Bach/dp/B000VR054I Gardiner - Ach Herr, ich wollte ja dein Recht ]
[http://www.amazon.com/Cantatas-v08-Koopman/dp/tracks/B00000JXQ5/ Koopman - Herr Jesu, der du angezündet ]
(I think I have corrected a small spelling error here and in Koopman's
liner notes ;
I also found many internet links that put Suzuki's
final choral text with Koopman's CD - probably in error !)
That is "2 votes" for "Herr, durch ..." , "approximately" 2 votes for "Du stellst..." , and 2 other text choices which were not mentioned by Eric Chafe in his book (above) .
Even if my "research" is correct (and there are good reasons to doubt the accuracy of track listings provided at sales sites , which I used , except with the Koopman version) , wikipedia does not use "research" , but "authoritative" published data . The book by Chafe is likely to be reliable as a resource , and I suggest shaping the wikipedia notes according to its observations , with the understanding that no conductor is bound to follow him .
Also , the current History and words section of the article does say something relevant . I suggest breaking out that remark into the start of a second paragraph in the section , and combining with added detail from the Chafe book ... For instance :
current text :
The text of the closing chorale is lost. Karl Friedrich Zelter suggested the eighth stanza of
David Denicke's chorale Wenn einer alle Ding verstünd (1657).[3] Werner Neumann suggested the
eighth stanza of Denicke's O Gottes Sohn, Herr Jesu Christ (1657).[4]
possible new text :
The text of the closing chorale used by Bach is lost. Karl Friedrich Zelter suggested
the eighth stanza of David Denicke's chorale "Wenn einer alle Ding verstünd" (1657) [3] ,
which choice appears in the
old Bach Edition
and has as its first line "Du stellst, Herr Jesu, selber dich" [34c] .
Werner Neumann , a contributor to the
new Bach Edition ,
suggested the eighth stanza of Denicke's "O Gottes Sohn, Herr Jesu Christ" (1657) [4]
which has as its first line "Herr, durch den Glauben wohn in mir" [34c] .
Either of these first lines , or other selections made by musical directors ,
may appear as the title of the closing chorale .
return to current text :
Bach first performed the cantata on 22 August 1723.[1]
I am using the clumsy [34c] to reference page 180 of Chafe's book which I cited in my prior comments .
I also wonder if , in the Scoring and structure section , the
listing should be
6. choral: original text lost ; see the above section for possibilities .
instead of the current selection of a specific title .
I will be content if you are able to use any part of these suggestions .
However , I am really reluctant to edit the article page .
mgt220 at yahoo.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.106.152.64 ( talk) 01:50, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
PS: I should probably have said editor of , not contributor to ,
in the suggested new text :
Werner Neumann , editor of the new Bach Edition ...
according to the Neumann article . Sorry for the oversight ... mgt220 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.106.152.64 ( talk) 03:07, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
Thanks ! You have made a definite improvement to the article , now
that it displays the title text of the two versions of the final
chorale that are listed in the "old" and "new" Bach Editions .
Listeners who have heard any of the 4 suggested recordings by
Leonhardt , Suzuki , Rilling , or Leusink , will find a matching
title text . But I am concerned that still leaves listeners of
suggested recordings by Gardiner and Koopman (and possibly
others , in future) with a "potential inconsistency" .
Isn't there something more we can say without running afoul of the wikipedia "no original research" policy ? For instance ,
Admittedly the last line may "confront" the policy , but it
is at least "verifiable" , in that we have the PDF copy of
the liner notes from Koopman's volume 8 , with bwv077 (NB p.75)
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-Rec-BIG/Koopman-C08-1c%5BErato-3CD%5D.pdf
And this 3-part description would remain both comprehensive
and true , regardless of whether recordings with unanticipated
choices are issued in future , or not .
Also , I have examined references 3 and 4 . They are
(especially ref.3) surprisingly "empty of expected content" .
That makes page 180 of the Chafe book look like a "helpful" reference
http://books.google.com/books?id=m3C67i5UZj8C&pg=PA180
since (at least) it does
present the full German text of the old and new Bach Edition
suggestions for readers to examine ... What do you think of
adding Chafe to the list of references (along with current
reference 3) ? Details of the Chafe book (for a citation)
are listed by
[http://www.amazon.com/Analyzing-Bach-Cantatas-Eric-Chafe/dp/019512099X Amazon.com]
The audio of Koopman's final chorale can be "sampled"
at [http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000QZZRAC this Amazon page]
(disk 3 , track 19) . The sampled words are a bit difficult to
follow , partly because they begin on the 5\th line of the
text , and the liner notes don't conform to the "phrasing" ,
as sung . I have taken the liberty of rewriting those last
3 lines (as sung) ; in the revised text of the Koopman version :
Herr Jesu, der du angezündet, das Fünklein in mir Schwachen, Was sich vom Glauben in mir findt, du wallst es stärker machen. Was du gefangen an, (/) valiführ bis an das End (/) daß dort bei dir auf Glauben folg das Schauen.
I have put (/) to indicate the line-breaks I ignored in the text of the PDF liner notes . (Given the probable "spelling error" I discovered in the first line already , and my inability to find another (more authoritative) copy of this text online , I can't be fully confident in its accuracy) .
Just one more observation : isn't the last line in the History and words section redundant ? (Sorry , I seem to have overlooked that when suggesting we keep it earlier) .
I look forward to your response . mgt220 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.106.152.64 ( talk) 00:44, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Jaguar ( talk · contribs) 22:11, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
I feel horrible for the backlog here. I'll finish this review soon
JAG
UAR
22:11, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
Out of all my 334 reviews so far, this is my shortest one. I could honestly find nothing that goes against the GA criteria and am obliged to pass it outright! Well done. Addressing the comments are optional, but I realise that I could be mistaken in a couple of them (such as my suggestion for the lead and British spelling)
JAG
UAR
22:33, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
There are two possible text variants for the sixth movement mentioned in reliable sources (e.g. Bach Digital quotes them both entirely): "selecting" one for the table of movements is not neutral. Either give both, or call the movement something like "(setting of " Ach Gott, vom Himmel sieh darein" tune)". -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 11:54, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
Re. "Closing chorale" section:
The cantata's last movement is a four-part chorale on the tune of " Ach Gott, vom Himmel sieh darein". Bach did not write any lyrics for this movement in his autograph score. A later hand added the text of the eighth stanza of David Denicke's hymn "Wenn einer alle Ding verstünd" (1657). The BGA published the cantata with that version of the text. Werner Neumann, the editor of the cantata for the NBA, assumed that Karl Friedrich Zelter had added the lyrics for the last movement to Bach's autograph without knowing which lyrics may have been intended by the composer. Further, he found that the lyrics did not suit very well, so he published the cantata with a stanza from Denicke's "O Gottes Sohn, Herr Jesu Christ" hymn (1657). Peter Wollny wrote in an article published in the Bach-Jahrbuch 2001 that the handwriting of the last movement's lyrics in Bach's autograph was not Zelter's but probably that of Johann Christoph Friedrich, one of Bach's younger sons, who may have had access to the cantata's performing parts containing the lyrics as intended by the composer.
-- Francis Schonken ( talk) 19:51, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
![]() | Du sollt Gott, deinen Herren, lieben, BWV 77 has been listed as one of the
Music good articles under the
good article criteria. If you can improve it further,
please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can
reassess it. Review: October 30, 2015. ( Reviewed version). |
![]() | A fact from Du sollt Gott, deinen Herren, lieben, BWV 77 appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 22 September 2011 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
| ![]() |
![]() | This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
As discussed on p.180
http://books.google.com/books?id=m3C67i5UZj8C&pg=PA180
of "Analyzing Bach Cantatas" by Eric Thomas Chafe (c: 2000) , Oxford University Press ,
http://www.amazon.com/Analyzing-Bach-Cantatas-Eric-Chafe/dp/019512099X
the text of the final chorale of bwv077 was not indicated by Bach , and may be
"Du stellst, Herr Jesu, selber dich" or "Herr Jesu ! du stellst selbsten dich" (+more)
or , alternatively , "Herr, durch den Glauben wohn in mir" (+more) depending on which
of two chorale texts by David Denicke was chosen by the music publisher
(see the reference listed at google books) .
I note that the current wikipedia article cites a different (and earlier) source for the chosen text , but I am unable to help in reconciling this difference .
The issue of the chorale text is not just "academic" , since at least one recording ,
that by Gustav Leonhardt (c: 1978) , and re-published by Teldec in 1999
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005Q0UTK0/
as part of their Bach 2000 compilation , used "Du stellst, Herr Jesu, selber dich" .
(The cited amazon product is not a CD , but contains the same music as
the corresponding CD from the Bach 2000 release) . Other recordings have
been made with the alternative text "Herr, durch den Glauben wohn in mir" .
The Leonhardt version is online here ... just the final chorale
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPudq8WknB4&t=890
A Helmuth Rilling (probably c: 1983) version is also online here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlUycfBPcx8&t=912
but it uses the text "Herr, durch den Glauben wohn in mir"
http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Cantatas-77-79-Rilling/dp/B00003OP4S/
As the text of the final chorale of bwv077 is not "unique" , and there may be two or more "accepted" choices (one of which has 2 variants for the first line , which text is usually "the title" of the chorale) , the wikipedia article might be improved if these details were explained , and the 2 variants of the opening line of the alternative (older ?) chorale were listed ...
I leave it to the wikipedia editors to decide if and how to use this suggestion , and to make any changes they deem necessary to the article .
mgt220 at yahoo.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.106.152.64 ( talk) 01:09, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
I have done some further investigation , which may be helpful .
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV77.htm
lists the 7 recordings known (by that site) for this cantata ...
6 of these are part of [attempted] complete Bach
Cantata sets , and are also listed on the article page as
selected recordings ; the set by Emiko Ohmura is sung in
Japanese , and the only reference I have does not document
the chorus text .
For the remaining 6 recordings , the final chorale text is :
[http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005Q0UTK0/ Leonhardt - Du stellst, Herr Jesu, selber dich ]
[http://www.amazon.com/Cantatas-v13-Suzuki/dp/tracks/B0000521W3/ Suzuki - Du stellst, mein Jesu, selber dich + zum Vorbild ]
[http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00003OP4S/ Rilling - Herr, durch den Glauben wohn in mir ] (trk 6)
[http://www.amazon.de/Bach-Edition-Vol-21/dp/tracks/B00004XPLF/ Leusink - Herr, durch den Glauben ( ... ? ) ] (disk 3)
[http://www.amazon.com/Cantatas-6-BWV-33-Bach/dp/B000VR054I Gardiner - Ach Herr, ich wollte ja dein Recht ]
[http://www.amazon.com/Cantatas-v08-Koopman/dp/tracks/B00000JXQ5/ Koopman - Herr Jesu, der du angezündet ]
(I think I have corrected a small spelling error here and in Koopman's
liner notes ;
I also found many internet links that put Suzuki's
final choral text with Koopman's CD - probably in error !)
That is "2 votes" for "Herr, durch ..." , "approximately" 2 votes for "Du stellst..." , and 2 other text choices which were not mentioned by Eric Chafe in his book (above) .
Even if my "research" is correct (and there are good reasons to doubt the accuracy of track listings provided at sales sites , which I used , except with the Koopman version) , wikipedia does not use "research" , but "authoritative" published data . The book by Chafe is likely to be reliable as a resource , and I suggest shaping the wikipedia notes according to its observations , with the understanding that no conductor is bound to follow him .
Also , the current History and words section of the article does say something relevant . I suggest breaking out that remark into the start of a second paragraph in the section , and combining with added detail from the Chafe book ... For instance :
current text :
The text of the closing chorale is lost. Karl Friedrich Zelter suggested the eighth stanza of
David Denicke's chorale Wenn einer alle Ding verstünd (1657).[3] Werner Neumann suggested the
eighth stanza of Denicke's O Gottes Sohn, Herr Jesu Christ (1657).[4]
possible new text :
The text of the closing chorale used by Bach is lost. Karl Friedrich Zelter suggested
the eighth stanza of David Denicke's chorale "Wenn einer alle Ding verstünd" (1657) [3] ,
which choice appears in the
old Bach Edition
and has as its first line "Du stellst, Herr Jesu, selber dich" [34c] .
Werner Neumann , a contributor to the
new Bach Edition ,
suggested the eighth stanza of Denicke's "O Gottes Sohn, Herr Jesu Christ" (1657) [4]
which has as its first line "Herr, durch den Glauben wohn in mir" [34c] .
Either of these first lines , or other selections made by musical directors ,
may appear as the title of the closing chorale .
return to current text :
Bach first performed the cantata on 22 August 1723.[1]
I am using the clumsy [34c] to reference page 180 of Chafe's book which I cited in my prior comments .
I also wonder if , in the Scoring and structure section , the
listing should be
6. choral: original text lost ; see the above section for possibilities .
instead of the current selection of a specific title .
I will be content if you are able to use any part of these suggestions .
However , I am really reluctant to edit the article page .
mgt220 at yahoo.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.106.152.64 ( talk) 01:50, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
PS: I should probably have said editor of , not contributor to ,
in the suggested new text :
Werner Neumann , editor of the new Bach Edition ...
according to the Neumann article . Sorry for the oversight ... mgt220 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.106.152.64 ( talk) 03:07, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
Thanks ! You have made a definite improvement to the article , now
that it displays the title text of the two versions of the final
chorale that are listed in the "old" and "new" Bach Editions .
Listeners who have heard any of the 4 suggested recordings by
Leonhardt , Suzuki , Rilling , or Leusink , will find a matching
title text . But I am concerned that still leaves listeners of
suggested recordings by Gardiner and Koopman (and possibly
others , in future) with a "potential inconsistency" .
Isn't there something more we can say without running afoul of the wikipedia "no original research" policy ? For instance ,
Admittedly the last line may "confront" the policy , but it
is at least "verifiable" , in that we have the PDF copy of
the liner notes from Koopman's volume 8 , with bwv077 (NB p.75)
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-Rec-BIG/Koopman-C08-1c%5BErato-3CD%5D.pdf
And this 3-part description would remain both comprehensive
and true , regardless of whether recordings with unanticipated
choices are issued in future , or not .
Also , I have examined references 3 and 4 . They are
(especially ref.3) surprisingly "empty of expected content" .
That makes page 180 of the Chafe book look like a "helpful" reference
http://books.google.com/books?id=m3C67i5UZj8C&pg=PA180
since (at least) it does
present the full German text of the old and new Bach Edition
suggestions for readers to examine ... What do you think of
adding Chafe to the list of references (along with current
reference 3) ? Details of the Chafe book (for a citation)
are listed by
[http://www.amazon.com/Analyzing-Bach-Cantatas-Eric-Chafe/dp/019512099X Amazon.com]
The audio of Koopman's final chorale can be "sampled"
at [http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000QZZRAC this Amazon page]
(disk 3 , track 19) . The sampled words are a bit difficult to
follow , partly because they begin on the 5\th line of the
text , and the liner notes don't conform to the "phrasing" ,
as sung . I have taken the liberty of rewriting those last
3 lines (as sung) ; in the revised text of the Koopman version :
Herr Jesu, der du angezündet, das Fünklein in mir Schwachen, Was sich vom Glauben in mir findt, du wallst es stärker machen. Was du gefangen an, (/) valiführ bis an das End (/) daß dort bei dir auf Glauben folg das Schauen.
I have put (/) to indicate the line-breaks I ignored in the text of the PDF liner notes . (Given the probable "spelling error" I discovered in the first line already , and my inability to find another (more authoritative) copy of this text online , I can't be fully confident in its accuracy) .
Just one more observation : isn't the last line in the History and words section redundant ? (Sorry , I seem to have overlooked that when suggesting we keep it earlier) .
I look forward to your response . mgt220 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.106.152.64 ( talk) 00:44, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Jaguar ( talk · contribs) 22:11, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
I feel horrible for the backlog here. I'll finish this review soon
JAG
UAR
22:11, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
Out of all my 334 reviews so far, this is my shortest one. I could honestly find nothing that goes against the GA criteria and am obliged to pass it outright! Well done. Addressing the comments are optional, but I realise that I could be mistaken in a couple of them (such as my suggestion for the lead and British spelling)
JAG
UAR
22:33, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
There are two possible text variants for the sixth movement mentioned in reliable sources (e.g. Bach Digital quotes them both entirely): "selecting" one for the table of movements is not neutral. Either give both, or call the movement something like "(setting of " Ach Gott, vom Himmel sieh darein" tune)". -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 11:54, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
Re. "Closing chorale" section:
The cantata's last movement is a four-part chorale on the tune of " Ach Gott, vom Himmel sieh darein". Bach did not write any lyrics for this movement in his autograph score. A later hand added the text of the eighth stanza of David Denicke's hymn "Wenn einer alle Ding verstünd" (1657). The BGA published the cantata with that version of the text. Werner Neumann, the editor of the cantata for the NBA, assumed that Karl Friedrich Zelter had added the lyrics for the last movement to Bach's autograph without knowing which lyrics may have been intended by the composer. Further, he found that the lyrics did not suit very well, so he published the cantata with a stanza from Denicke's "O Gottes Sohn, Herr Jesu Christ" hymn (1657). Peter Wollny wrote in an article published in the Bach-Jahrbuch 2001 that the handwriting of the last movement's lyrics in Bach's autograph was not Zelter's but probably that of Johann Christoph Friedrich, one of Bach's younger sons, who may have had access to the cantata's performing parts containing the lyrics as intended by the composer.
-- Francis Schonken ( talk) 19:51, 21 June 2017 (UTC)