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Needs citation of sources. Badbilltucker 01:59, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Druidry is the preferred term among the Neo-Druid Community. An analysis of the links provided at the bottom of the page:
American •ADF – Ár nDraíocht Féin: A Druid Fellowship – “Ár nDraíocht Féin: A Druid Fellowship (ADF) is an international fellowship devoted to creating a public tradition of Neopagan Druidry.” •ADO – Avalon Druid Order –“Druidry for a New Age” •DGOFC – Druid Gorsedd of the First Circle –“ We welcome people of all paths, whether they choose to follow Druidry as their sole path, or seek to infuse their chosen path with the spirit of Druidry.” •The Henge of Keltria –“ Keltrian Druidism is a spiritual path dedicated to revering the Nature Spirits, honoring the Ancestors, and worshipping the Deities of our ancient Irish ancestors.” •RDNA – Reformed Druids of North America – “The mother grove of American Druidry” •Reformed Druids of North America – Uses both, but from reading through it they seemed to be using Druidism more. •Reformed Druid Grove Locations –Dead Link, just a list of locations anyways •A Reformed Druid Anthology –Uses Druidism more •AODA – Ancient Order of Druids in America –Has a whole paragraph devoted to why Druidry is better than Druidism •The Archdruid Report -Druidry •Ord Draiochta na Uisnech – Irish Tradition –Dead Link •Isaac Bonewits's website -Expired •RDG – Reformed Druids of Gaia -Druidism •Order of the Mithril Star – Druidism, connected to above British •OBOD – The Order of Bards, Ovates and Druids –Druidry, in the URL of their site •AOD – The Ancient Order of Druids -Druidism •Philip Carr-Gomm's website –Uses both •Druidcast – a druid podcast -Druidry •TDN – The Druid Network –“ Informing, Inspiring and Facilitating Druidry as a Religion” •BDO – The British Druid Order –“ Rekindling the sacred fires of Druidry as a living, breathing, Earth-honouring and deeply life-affirming spirituality for the 21st century.” •Council Of British Druid Orders – (CoBDO) -Druidry •Caer Clud –Broken link Canadian •Celtic Faith of Greater Ireland (French) –In French, doesn’t matter for the English wiki •Canadian Druid Confederation – Broken Link Irish •The Irish College of Druids “The ancient stream of Irish Druidry continues to flow strongly in our modern world.” •Irish Druid Network Directory –Uses Both •Hibernian Order of Druids –Broken Link Galician •IDG - Pan-Galician Druidic Fellowship (Portuguese) –Again, this is the English wiki
So, in case you did not want to read all of that, of the links provided that worked, 12 used Druidry, 5 used Druidism, and 3 used both, a majority for Druidry. Furthermore, that includes repeats and non-organizational links like personal websites. Counting only the main website for organizations, we have a 10 to 4 ratio in favor of Druidry. Should we not use the term that most Neo-Druid Organizations and websites deemed significant to link to on Wikipedia use? Thunderstone99 ( talk) 03:12, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
This article seems to conflate a history of druidism that came from Welsh and British nationalism with Fraternal Orders so common in the 19th Century (in response to the powerful networks of Freemasonry) and Neo-Paganism. While there may be slight overlap in time and membership of these different movements, they are not fundamentally the same. In particular the Fraternal Orders of Druids that developed in the 19th Century had very little to do with neo-paganism until perhaps the late 20th Century when the organisations were made up of a diminished and predominantly aging population. To be blunt, this article seems written from the POV of neo-druidism, with a writing backwards of history to include the earlier movements. I strongly urge that if it is an article on neo-pagan Druidism then it should focus on those religious movements, with the other aspects in new articles, or that it should adopt a neutral tone until the section of modern spiritual druidism Brunswicknic ( talk) 14:28, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
Neo-Druidism →
Neo-Druidry I withdraw the request per below input.
Pass a Method
talk
22:22, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
There have been several proposals in the archieves to rename this article "Neo-Druidry", including by members of the Druid faith. It is the most common usage of how Druid organisations describe themselves. The most common objection to this proposal is that Google returns more hits with "NeoDruidism" but this rationale is flawed because these hit counts appears to be a result from either a google bomb or spam and subsequent anchoring by news sites. I have even seen off-wiki threads of Druids being displeased because this is a suffix which is misleading to their doctrines. Wikipedia is supposed to use a title which is the most common usage among adherents.
Per thunderstone99 above, in links on this article, 12 used Druidry, 5 used Druidism, and 3 used both.
Pass a Method talk 15:44, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
This article proclaims that neo-druids are using sweatlodges solely on being inspired by indigenous practices of Native Americans, when in fact the Celts in past had traditionally used sweatlodges already and the Neo-Druids are merely continuing the practice. Albeit often using the Native American methods of construction and use as it is less resource and work intensive. I have edited this into the article before and it has been changed back. If in doubt of my references used before, then I suggest looking at this direct quote from the Wiki article on Sweat Lodge, ""Vapour baths were in use among the Celtic tribes, and the sweat-house was in general use in Ireland down to the 18th, and even survived into the 19th century. It was of beehive shape and was covered with clay. It was especially resorted to as a cure for rheumatism."[1] These structures were built of stone, and square or corbelled "beehive" versions are often found, mostly in the Irish and Gaelic-speaking areas of Ireland and Scotland, though most seem of relatively recent date. The method of construction, heating the structure, and usage was different from the North American examples, and they seem to have been regarded as therapeutic in function, like the sauna, and perhaps typically used by one person at a time, given their small size.[2]"
If I can't make this edit myself do to it being changed back, then could someone else do it with this knowledge provided?
70.48.166.162 ( talk) 16:49, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
I find it intersting that you impugn the source here. The fact of the matter is ther is a preponderance of archeological evidence that supports the use of the 'sweathouse' or lodge in Ireland and well as in Scotland. Furthermore, there is a dearth of evidence supporting the fact that these were not merely 'theraputic' but were used in worship. https://archive.org/stream/ulsterjournalar05unkngoog/ulsterjournalar05unkngoog_djvu.txt — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xtopher1 ( talk • contribs) 21:58, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
What little we know of sweathouse traditions in the Gaelic areas bears more resemblance to Nordic sauna rituals than the Native American sweatlodge ceremonies. The neo-druid groups linked in the article seem to be clearly appropriating from Native Americans, not attempting to accurately reconstruct the Gaelic tradition. - CorbieV ☊ 21:18, 7 August 2014 (UTC) Additionally, the blue plastic tarps in this misappropriated mess of an airtight structure are a good way to kill people. - CorbieV ☊ 22:06, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
In the section "Afterlife" the Reformed Druids of North America are used to show that some Neo-Druids do not believe in reincarnation. I am familiar with the Reformed Druids of North America as being a satirical organization having very little to do with actual Druidry, so I believe that a different example, if once exists, should be used to show that some Druids do not believe in reincarnation. I possess no knowledge of such a group, so am incapable of making the proper contributions myself. I encourage those more knowledgeable about the topic to make the proper edits, or perhaps to provide reasons why the Reformed Druids of North America should be kept as an example. 67.5.25.53 ( talk) 00:24, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
Hello. I have been searching for the scholarship on the word Wirdjos. I noticed that a chart which appeared on an earlier edit of this page circa 2005 included Wirdjos as a name of Viridios. Does anyone know where that chart came from or what sources were used to construct it? It seems to have been removed from Wikipedia quite awhile ago, but still appears elsewhere, albeit without further sourcing. Thank you for any help you can offer. Wirdjos ( talk) 20:13, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
Since there is no such thing as a Classical Druidism (rather Druids were simply a social role within a wider Celtic paganism) should this article not be simply called Druidism without the neo-? The idea of Druidism is a romantic 18th century one, initiated properly by Iolo Morganwg and co, which these modern groups continue to articulate. Claíomh Solais ( talk) 11:14, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
As of May 2021, the "Pagan Druidry in Europe" section of this article happily declares that, because "the Celtic Druid Temple (Ireland) [..] are legally registered [as a charity] in their respective countries, hence Druidry being an officially recognised religion in those territories".
In Ireland, being a registered charity is not the same as being a recognised religion. It just isn't.
The Charities Regulator in Ireland, for example, may be an official "registrar of charities", but that does not make it an official "recogniser of religions". (In Ireland at least, receiving a registration as a charity is not the same as receiving recognition as a religion. And to claim it does is silly. If the operator of an Irish donkey sanctuary registers it as a charity [so she can legally fundraise for that charity], does that bestow additional religious recognition on the operator? Or the donkeys? Hint: No. It doesn't.)
It may be that Druidry has received recognition as a religion in some of the (other) listed territories, but the claims in relation to Ireland are dubious at best. And (at a glance) the claims relative to some of the charity/tax registrations in other countries also seem to be a stretch.
I have removed Ireland from the list. As it is quite clear that the charity registrar's entry should not (and cannot) be read as religious recognition. (As that is not that body's function.) Ideally someone else might qualify and clarify (without the apparent OR currently at play) whether and where Druidry is actually "officially recognised religion in those territories". To my read the claim is based on apparent WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. (In that the text comes to "a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources"). Ideally there would be more explicit sources, like that seen for the similar claim made in respect of the status afforded to The Druid Network in England and Wales (towards the end of the article). Guliolopez ( talk) 02:11, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
"Gorsedd, one of the 18th century traditions that were founded by Morganwg, became part of the 12th century Eisteddfod festival.[17]"
Either the sentence is ambigious as it refers to fabricated sources (by Morganwg) which imply that a specific tradition (Gorsedd) has been a historic part of the Eisteddfod festival ... or I forgot to read the applied timetravel article.
Does my reading comprehension need a little polishing or should this sentences be rewritten? 2003:6:3337:2625:F452:9FF6:50B5:9D1A ( talk) 14:32, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
"the Cornish Gorsedd for example has publicly disassociated any links to Paganism." I'm not sure this really reflects a balanced POV. While this is certainly the opinion of Amy Hale, it would be useful to either clarify the position of Gorsedh Kernow or remove this assertion. <OR> Gorsedh Kernow includes several neo-Pagans amongst its members, including at least one former Grand Bard. They do not tend to discuss spirituality </OR>. I think it would be more relevant to include published statements from Welsh Archdruids to illustrate this point. Guidance on the correct approach for Wikipedia would be appreciated. Tim flatus ( talk) 15:04, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
We should be careful when making assertions about Druidic beliefs such as "The Druidic concept of ancestry". Druidry has no scripture, so these sorts of statements need to be contextualised. This concept of "ancestors of the land" is common to many neo-Pagan groups, but is not specific to Druidry. Tim flatus ( talk) 17:43, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
I want to rewrite the entire storytelling paragraph. Andy Letcher is well respected as a Bard, but his comments referenced here do not reflect a sufficiently broad understanding of Druidry. I intend to remove the following completely:
'Bards utilise archaic words such as "t'was", "thence", and "deeds", while speaking in a grandiose manner of intonation. The general purpose of bardism, according to scholar of religion and bard Andy Letcher, is to create an "ambience" of "a catchall ahistorical past; a Celtic, medieval, Tolkienesque, once-upon-a-time enchanted world".'
It is not a useful description. I also feel that discussion of musical instruments is somewhat irrelevant as this all applies to a particular style of historical reconstruction, which tells us nothing of the role and skill set expected of a Bard. Tim flatus ( talk) 18:01, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
This
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
no archives yet ( create) |
Needs citation of sources. Badbilltucker 01:59, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Druidry is the preferred term among the Neo-Druid Community. An analysis of the links provided at the bottom of the page:
American •ADF – Ár nDraíocht Féin: A Druid Fellowship – “Ár nDraíocht Féin: A Druid Fellowship (ADF) is an international fellowship devoted to creating a public tradition of Neopagan Druidry.” •ADO – Avalon Druid Order –“Druidry for a New Age” •DGOFC – Druid Gorsedd of the First Circle –“ We welcome people of all paths, whether they choose to follow Druidry as their sole path, or seek to infuse their chosen path with the spirit of Druidry.” •The Henge of Keltria –“ Keltrian Druidism is a spiritual path dedicated to revering the Nature Spirits, honoring the Ancestors, and worshipping the Deities of our ancient Irish ancestors.” •RDNA – Reformed Druids of North America – “The mother grove of American Druidry” •Reformed Druids of North America – Uses both, but from reading through it they seemed to be using Druidism more. •Reformed Druid Grove Locations –Dead Link, just a list of locations anyways •A Reformed Druid Anthology –Uses Druidism more •AODA – Ancient Order of Druids in America –Has a whole paragraph devoted to why Druidry is better than Druidism •The Archdruid Report -Druidry •Ord Draiochta na Uisnech – Irish Tradition –Dead Link •Isaac Bonewits's website -Expired •RDG – Reformed Druids of Gaia -Druidism •Order of the Mithril Star – Druidism, connected to above British •OBOD – The Order of Bards, Ovates and Druids –Druidry, in the URL of their site •AOD – The Ancient Order of Druids -Druidism •Philip Carr-Gomm's website –Uses both •Druidcast – a druid podcast -Druidry •TDN – The Druid Network –“ Informing, Inspiring and Facilitating Druidry as a Religion” •BDO – The British Druid Order –“ Rekindling the sacred fires of Druidry as a living, breathing, Earth-honouring and deeply life-affirming spirituality for the 21st century.” •Council Of British Druid Orders – (CoBDO) -Druidry •Caer Clud –Broken link Canadian •Celtic Faith of Greater Ireland (French) –In French, doesn’t matter for the English wiki •Canadian Druid Confederation – Broken Link Irish •The Irish College of Druids “The ancient stream of Irish Druidry continues to flow strongly in our modern world.” •Irish Druid Network Directory –Uses Both •Hibernian Order of Druids –Broken Link Galician •IDG - Pan-Galician Druidic Fellowship (Portuguese) –Again, this is the English wiki
So, in case you did not want to read all of that, of the links provided that worked, 12 used Druidry, 5 used Druidism, and 3 used both, a majority for Druidry. Furthermore, that includes repeats and non-organizational links like personal websites. Counting only the main website for organizations, we have a 10 to 4 ratio in favor of Druidry. Should we not use the term that most Neo-Druid Organizations and websites deemed significant to link to on Wikipedia use? Thunderstone99 ( talk) 03:12, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
This article seems to conflate a history of druidism that came from Welsh and British nationalism with Fraternal Orders so common in the 19th Century (in response to the powerful networks of Freemasonry) and Neo-Paganism. While there may be slight overlap in time and membership of these different movements, they are not fundamentally the same. In particular the Fraternal Orders of Druids that developed in the 19th Century had very little to do with neo-paganism until perhaps the late 20th Century when the organisations were made up of a diminished and predominantly aging population. To be blunt, this article seems written from the POV of neo-druidism, with a writing backwards of history to include the earlier movements. I strongly urge that if it is an article on neo-pagan Druidism then it should focus on those religious movements, with the other aspects in new articles, or that it should adopt a neutral tone until the section of modern spiritual druidism Brunswicknic ( talk) 14:28, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
Neo-Druidism →
Neo-Druidry I withdraw the request per below input.
Pass a Method
talk
22:22, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
There have been several proposals in the archieves to rename this article "Neo-Druidry", including by members of the Druid faith. It is the most common usage of how Druid organisations describe themselves. The most common objection to this proposal is that Google returns more hits with "NeoDruidism" but this rationale is flawed because these hit counts appears to be a result from either a google bomb or spam and subsequent anchoring by news sites. I have even seen off-wiki threads of Druids being displeased because this is a suffix which is misleading to their doctrines. Wikipedia is supposed to use a title which is the most common usage among adherents.
Per thunderstone99 above, in links on this article, 12 used Druidry, 5 used Druidism, and 3 used both.
Pass a Method talk 15:44, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
This article proclaims that neo-druids are using sweatlodges solely on being inspired by indigenous practices of Native Americans, when in fact the Celts in past had traditionally used sweatlodges already and the Neo-Druids are merely continuing the practice. Albeit often using the Native American methods of construction and use as it is less resource and work intensive. I have edited this into the article before and it has been changed back. If in doubt of my references used before, then I suggest looking at this direct quote from the Wiki article on Sweat Lodge, ""Vapour baths were in use among the Celtic tribes, and the sweat-house was in general use in Ireland down to the 18th, and even survived into the 19th century. It was of beehive shape and was covered with clay. It was especially resorted to as a cure for rheumatism."[1] These structures were built of stone, and square or corbelled "beehive" versions are often found, mostly in the Irish and Gaelic-speaking areas of Ireland and Scotland, though most seem of relatively recent date. The method of construction, heating the structure, and usage was different from the North American examples, and they seem to have been regarded as therapeutic in function, like the sauna, and perhaps typically used by one person at a time, given their small size.[2]"
If I can't make this edit myself do to it being changed back, then could someone else do it with this knowledge provided?
70.48.166.162 ( talk) 16:49, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
I find it intersting that you impugn the source here. The fact of the matter is ther is a preponderance of archeological evidence that supports the use of the 'sweathouse' or lodge in Ireland and well as in Scotland. Furthermore, there is a dearth of evidence supporting the fact that these were not merely 'theraputic' but were used in worship. https://archive.org/stream/ulsterjournalar05unkngoog/ulsterjournalar05unkngoog_djvu.txt — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xtopher1 ( talk • contribs) 21:58, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
What little we know of sweathouse traditions in the Gaelic areas bears more resemblance to Nordic sauna rituals than the Native American sweatlodge ceremonies. The neo-druid groups linked in the article seem to be clearly appropriating from Native Americans, not attempting to accurately reconstruct the Gaelic tradition. - CorbieV ☊ 21:18, 7 August 2014 (UTC) Additionally, the blue plastic tarps in this misappropriated mess of an airtight structure are a good way to kill people. - CorbieV ☊ 22:06, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
In the section "Afterlife" the Reformed Druids of North America are used to show that some Neo-Druids do not believe in reincarnation. I am familiar with the Reformed Druids of North America as being a satirical organization having very little to do with actual Druidry, so I believe that a different example, if once exists, should be used to show that some Druids do not believe in reincarnation. I possess no knowledge of such a group, so am incapable of making the proper contributions myself. I encourage those more knowledgeable about the topic to make the proper edits, or perhaps to provide reasons why the Reformed Druids of North America should be kept as an example. 67.5.25.53 ( talk) 00:24, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
Hello. I have been searching for the scholarship on the word Wirdjos. I noticed that a chart which appeared on an earlier edit of this page circa 2005 included Wirdjos as a name of Viridios. Does anyone know where that chart came from or what sources were used to construct it? It seems to have been removed from Wikipedia quite awhile ago, but still appears elsewhere, albeit without further sourcing. Thank you for any help you can offer. Wirdjos ( talk) 20:13, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
Since there is no such thing as a Classical Druidism (rather Druids were simply a social role within a wider Celtic paganism) should this article not be simply called Druidism without the neo-? The idea of Druidism is a romantic 18th century one, initiated properly by Iolo Morganwg and co, which these modern groups continue to articulate. Claíomh Solais ( talk) 11:14, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
As of May 2021, the "Pagan Druidry in Europe" section of this article happily declares that, because "the Celtic Druid Temple (Ireland) [..] are legally registered [as a charity] in their respective countries, hence Druidry being an officially recognised religion in those territories".
In Ireland, being a registered charity is not the same as being a recognised religion. It just isn't.
The Charities Regulator in Ireland, for example, may be an official "registrar of charities", but that does not make it an official "recogniser of religions". (In Ireland at least, receiving a registration as a charity is not the same as receiving recognition as a religion. And to claim it does is silly. If the operator of an Irish donkey sanctuary registers it as a charity [so she can legally fundraise for that charity], does that bestow additional religious recognition on the operator? Or the donkeys? Hint: No. It doesn't.)
It may be that Druidry has received recognition as a religion in some of the (other) listed territories, but the claims in relation to Ireland are dubious at best. And (at a glance) the claims relative to some of the charity/tax registrations in other countries also seem to be a stretch.
I have removed Ireland from the list. As it is quite clear that the charity registrar's entry should not (and cannot) be read as religious recognition. (As that is not that body's function.) Ideally someone else might qualify and clarify (without the apparent OR currently at play) whether and where Druidry is actually "officially recognised religion in those territories". To my read the claim is based on apparent WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. (In that the text comes to "a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources"). Ideally there would be more explicit sources, like that seen for the similar claim made in respect of the status afforded to The Druid Network in England and Wales (towards the end of the article). Guliolopez ( talk) 02:11, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
"Gorsedd, one of the 18th century traditions that were founded by Morganwg, became part of the 12th century Eisteddfod festival.[17]"
Either the sentence is ambigious as it refers to fabricated sources (by Morganwg) which imply that a specific tradition (Gorsedd) has been a historic part of the Eisteddfod festival ... or I forgot to read the applied timetravel article.
Does my reading comprehension need a little polishing or should this sentences be rewritten? 2003:6:3337:2625:F452:9FF6:50B5:9D1A ( talk) 14:32, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
"the Cornish Gorsedd for example has publicly disassociated any links to Paganism." I'm not sure this really reflects a balanced POV. While this is certainly the opinion of Amy Hale, it would be useful to either clarify the position of Gorsedh Kernow or remove this assertion. <OR> Gorsedh Kernow includes several neo-Pagans amongst its members, including at least one former Grand Bard. They do not tend to discuss spirituality </OR>. I think it would be more relevant to include published statements from Welsh Archdruids to illustrate this point. Guidance on the correct approach for Wikipedia would be appreciated. Tim flatus ( talk) 15:04, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
We should be careful when making assertions about Druidic beliefs such as "The Druidic concept of ancestry". Druidry has no scripture, so these sorts of statements need to be contextualised. This concept of "ancestors of the land" is common to many neo-Pagan groups, but is not specific to Druidry. Tim flatus ( talk) 17:43, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
I want to rewrite the entire storytelling paragraph. Andy Letcher is well respected as a Bard, but his comments referenced here do not reflect a sufficiently broad understanding of Druidry. I intend to remove the following completely:
'Bards utilise archaic words such as "t'was", "thence", and "deeds", while speaking in a grandiose manner of intonation. The general purpose of bardism, according to scholar of religion and bard Andy Letcher, is to create an "ambience" of "a catchall ahistorical past; a Celtic, medieval, Tolkienesque, once-upon-a-time enchanted world".'
It is not a useful description. I also feel that discussion of musical instruments is somewhat irrelevant as this all applies to a particular style of historical reconstruction, which tells us nothing of the role and skill set expected of a Bard. Tim flatus ( talk) 18:01, 27 May 2023 (UTC)