![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions for the period 2003-2006. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Sorry buds, but the pinyin form is very uncommon: [1] -- Jiang
I've moved this article to "The Chronicles of the Stone" as ji4 (yanzi) refers to records, notes, and the like. - Taoster
While I do understand what the above wikipedian mean, I wonder whether we are taking it too far for the non-Chinese readers. The Story of the Stone makes good sense as well - the book has been translated as such. Are we are getting a bit pedatic here? - Mandel
The Story of the Stone is another book entirely, though a story from this text is mentioned in it. Auric The Rad 04:07, Jun 17, 2004 (UTC)
I moved the page to The Dream of the Red Chamber, which is the more common name by which this work is known and also a name which has a clearer, less disputed translation than Chronicles of the Stone. -- Lowellian 14:30, Sep 18, 2004 (UTC)
Actually, I'm moving the page to Dream of the Red Chamber, omitting the initial article "the," for two reasons: first, this makes the title consistent with most of the other Chinese classic texts in Wikipedia (for example, see Romance of the Three Kingdoms or Journey to the West) and because sometimes the initial article is unclear, as sometimes the title of the book is translated as The Dream and sometimes as A Dream; also, it's not like there is an article in the actual Chinese title anyway. -- Lowellian 14:40, Sep 18, 2004 (UTC)
I thought Gao E's contribution to the book was debated, anyone could validate this? -- Cylauj 15:01, 3 May 2004 (UTC)
Linking to Soap opera with the adjective "riveting"? Maybe replace with "A riveting chronicle of a family's decline" or something of the like. 61.51.66.110 14:47, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Red_dream.png
I can see below that there are some disputes...I hope I can add something to the conversation. First, what is arguably the widest circulating translation still in publication of Hong Lou Meng was done by David Hawkes (the last two volumes by John Minford, same publisher - Penguin), and it is translated as The Story of the Stone, with a subtitle, also known as The Dream of the Red Chamber. So it's a perfectly valid title.
Secondly, I read something almost immediately that made me take a double-look. The opening states that "...is one of the greatest masterpieces of Chinese fiction and of the four Classics, written in the 18th century during the Qing Dynasty." My problems include the following (let me just say in advance that I am sorry, I sound like a total jerk) Anyway:
Stating that it is one of the greatest masterpieces of Chinese fiction...I personally believe that this is the greatest novel ever written. But that's an opinion, as is the previous statement. Furthermore, the concept of a "great Chinese novel" (read NOVEL) didn't mean anything until after the May 4th movement. Also, there is a link to something called the "four classics". This could be easily be confused with the Four Books of Neo-Confucianism (Mencius, Doctrine of the Mean, Analects, and the Great Learning). The idea that these four books constitute a sort of fictional canon is, in my opinion, anachronistic. The whole idea of looking to fiction as a means of expressing a theme or idea (as the West has been doing for many years) is a relatively modern phenomenon, probably started when Hu Shi began to praise these works for their use of vernacular. Ironically, the only novel that did pass the scrutiny of sinologists like C.T. Hsia (see The Great Chinese Novel), was this one. This is probably the only novel from pre-1917 China that is not cliche, with flat characters and predicitable plot lines. I've reworded the intro paragraph, and I hope the editors will find it satisfactory. Iluvchineselit 01:31, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
In chapter 6 of the Hawkes translation Bao-yu initiates sexual relations with his maid Aroma shortly after the red chamber dream. For much of the remainder of the novel Bao-yu's relations with Aroma and all the other girls appears to be chaste. Do Bao-yu's sexual relations really stop for a number of years? Does this make sense, as sex never seemed like a genie that could be put back into a bottle? Is this something that I am simply missing due to an inattentive reading of a translated work? What is going on?
Regards, mleahy@sonic.net
There was a duplicated article ( edit history). — Insta ntnood 08:39, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
I think the translated title Dreams of Red Chamber captures the essense of the story best. Sorry I didn't see the above discussion section "Name of article," so I started a new one.-- Ryz05 03:46, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
The article states The book, is, thus, normally published and read in Cheng Weiyuan and Gao E's 120-chapter completed version.
However this article on the authorship states Cheng and Gao published their first 120 chapter version of Hong Lou Meng in 1791. [...] This was the so called Cheng Jia Ben (程甲本)edition, published almost thirty years after Cao Xueqin passed away. It was also the first printed version of Hong Lou Meng.
Less than three months later, in 1792, Cheng and Gao published another version, still with 120 chapters. [...] This was the so called Cheng Yi Ben (程乙本)edition, which later became the most popular edition of HLM known by millions of Chinese readers today.
A clarification might be in order. --18:06, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Dream of the Red Chamber/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Graded as high after representation - article does not provide clear verifiable sourcing for statements about notability. There is plenty of scope here for article improvement. Hence the start-class, this should be worked on to improv the articles NPOV character and referencing to increase quality if this is such a key novel as suggested. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/ (Desk) 11:28, 3 January 2007 (UTC) |
Last edited at 11:28, 3 January 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 14:42, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions for the period 2003-2006. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Sorry buds, but the pinyin form is very uncommon: [1] -- Jiang
I've moved this article to "The Chronicles of the Stone" as ji4 (yanzi) refers to records, notes, and the like. - Taoster
While I do understand what the above wikipedian mean, I wonder whether we are taking it too far for the non-Chinese readers. The Story of the Stone makes good sense as well - the book has been translated as such. Are we are getting a bit pedatic here? - Mandel
The Story of the Stone is another book entirely, though a story from this text is mentioned in it. Auric The Rad 04:07, Jun 17, 2004 (UTC)
I moved the page to The Dream of the Red Chamber, which is the more common name by which this work is known and also a name which has a clearer, less disputed translation than Chronicles of the Stone. -- Lowellian 14:30, Sep 18, 2004 (UTC)
Actually, I'm moving the page to Dream of the Red Chamber, omitting the initial article "the," for two reasons: first, this makes the title consistent with most of the other Chinese classic texts in Wikipedia (for example, see Romance of the Three Kingdoms or Journey to the West) and because sometimes the initial article is unclear, as sometimes the title of the book is translated as The Dream and sometimes as A Dream; also, it's not like there is an article in the actual Chinese title anyway. -- Lowellian 14:40, Sep 18, 2004 (UTC)
I thought Gao E's contribution to the book was debated, anyone could validate this? -- Cylauj 15:01, 3 May 2004 (UTC)
Linking to Soap opera with the adjective "riveting"? Maybe replace with "A riveting chronicle of a family's decline" or something of the like. 61.51.66.110 14:47, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Red_dream.png
I can see below that there are some disputes...I hope I can add something to the conversation. First, what is arguably the widest circulating translation still in publication of Hong Lou Meng was done by David Hawkes (the last two volumes by John Minford, same publisher - Penguin), and it is translated as The Story of the Stone, with a subtitle, also known as The Dream of the Red Chamber. So it's a perfectly valid title.
Secondly, I read something almost immediately that made me take a double-look. The opening states that "...is one of the greatest masterpieces of Chinese fiction and of the four Classics, written in the 18th century during the Qing Dynasty." My problems include the following (let me just say in advance that I am sorry, I sound like a total jerk) Anyway:
Stating that it is one of the greatest masterpieces of Chinese fiction...I personally believe that this is the greatest novel ever written. But that's an opinion, as is the previous statement. Furthermore, the concept of a "great Chinese novel" (read NOVEL) didn't mean anything until after the May 4th movement. Also, there is a link to something called the "four classics". This could be easily be confused with the Four Books of Neo-Confucianism (Mencius, Doctrine of the Mean, Analects, and the Great Learning). The idea that these four books constitute a sort of fictional canon is, in my opinion, anachronistic. The whole idea of looking to fiction as a means of expressing a theme or idea (as the West has been doing for many years) is a relatively modern phenomenon, probably started when Hu Shi began to praise these works for their use of vernacular. Ironically, the only novel that did pass the scrutiny of sinologists like C.T. Hsia (see The Great Chinese Novel), was this one. This is probably the only novel from pre-1917 China that is not cliche, with flat characters and predicitable plot lines. I've reworded the intro paragraph, and I hope the editors will find it satisfactory. Iluvchineselit 01:31, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
In chapter 6 of the Hawkes translation Bao-yu initiates sexual relations with his maid Aroma shortly after the red chamber dream. For much of the remainder of the novel Bao-yu's relations with Aroma and all the other girls appears to be chaste. Do Bao-yu's sexual relations really stop for a number of years? Does this make sense, as sex never seemed like a genie that could be put back into a bottle? Is this something that I am simply missing due to an inattentive reading of a translated work? What is going on?
Regards, mleahy@sonic.net
There was a duplicated article ( edit history). — Insta ntnood 08:39, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
I think the translated title Dreams of Red Chamber captures the essense of the story best. Sorry I didn't see the above discussion section "Name of article," so I started a new one.-- Ryz05 03:46, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
The article states The book, is, thus, normally published and read in Cheng Weiyuan and Gao E's 120-chapter completed version.
However this article on the authorship states Cheng and Gao published their first 120 chapter version of Hong Lou Meng in 1791. [...] This was the so called Cheng Jia Ben (程甲本)edition, published almost thirty years after Cao Xueqin passed away. It was also the first printed version of Hong Lou Meng.
Less than three months later, in 1792, Cheng and Gao published another version, still with 120 chapters. [...] This was the so called Cheng Yi Ben (程乙本)edition, which later became the most popular edition of HLM known by millions of Chinese readers today.
A clarification might be in order. --18:06, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Dream of the Red Chamber/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Graded as high after representation - article does not provide clear verifiable sourcing for statements about notability. There is plenty of scope here for article improvement. Hence the start-class, this should be worked on to improv the articles NPOV character and referencing to increase quality if this is such a key novel as suggested. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/ (Desk) 11:28, 3 January 2007 (UTC) |
Last edited at 11:28, 3 January 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 14:42, 1 May 2016 (UTC)