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I hope that a few things should be observed when doing the write-up on the characters.
Someone left a comment in the text "Please also refrain from writing about the 120-chapter ending (which was not the original writer's intent.)" In a brief survey of the Net I could not find any authoritative documentation of Cao's intent here. Can we see some references here? -- Slashem ( talk) 15:32, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Since there has been no reply, I have removed the comment. Please discuss here before reinstating it. -- Slashem ( talk) 18:19, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to suggest amending the description of Bonsall's translation as follows in order to give a more complete picture:
The typescript of another complete translation, by Dr Bramwell Seaton Bonsall, a Wesleyan Methodist missionary to China from 1911 to 1926, has been made available through the University of Hong Kong Libraries. The translation was completed in the 1950s and is accessible in pdf[2] from the library Web site. This version was accepted for publication by The Asia Society of New York but has not been officially published.
Jklai ( talk) 03:39, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
After my editing, i've got two reverts. One for too many spelling mistakes and one for neutrality. I didn't realize where did i broke the neutrality. So please help me to improve the article, Thanks a lot! 百家姓之四 討論 (Discussion) 04:11, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Some non-native English writers are writing something like Anglo-Chinese pidgin in this article. It must be rectified or the article will be unintelligible. 116.14.114.58 ( talk) 09:36, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
I am reading Dream of the Red Chamber. I thought it would be helpful to add details about the characters' names. Someone listed the traditional Chinese names, and I included the simplified Chinese, pinyin, Wade-Giles, and translation. I realize one of the previous anonymous editors removed translations of names. It will be helpful for readers to see the translations because the book sometimes makes puns and other references to the meaning of the names. Please do not remove them. I added notes about Wade-Giles, etc. because some online resources such as Cliffnotes do not use the Pinyin names, so it will help readers' research.
If it may be helpful to readers and their understanding of the novel, do not remove it. Thank you. -- Catch153 ( talk) 07:56, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
Assails Men?! Oh man, Who would call a girl this way? Why not translate the "supposed" meaning 花气袭人知骤暖? OK I know it is hard to explain that in English, but it worths a try. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Purpureleaf ( talk • contribs) 15:22, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
I bursted out laughing XD. though, it is correct, literally. Hermesw ( talk) 03:57, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
It was Baoyu's father who thought the name is crazy, not everyone.袭 doesn't mean assailing in 花气袭人知骤暖(Lu You's original poem). Surrounding or pleasing would be more suitable. 袭 is still used this way in modern Chinese.
"Garment person" is definitely wrong though. Surrounding or pleasing as the last comment suggested could be fine, but seems to lack the strong feeling. How about something like "overwhelming"? Nautilusfossil ( talk) 21:03, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
Does anyone know if this work (meaning at least the first 80 chapters) has been published in a simplified Chinese version? I was only able to locate a traditional character version. K. the Surveyor ( talk) 21:37, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
There are numerous versions published in simplified Chinese.-- 刻意(Kèyì) 08:03, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
I wasn't sure what translated title was most standard. I ran some Google searches for each version on Google Web search and Google Book Search:
Not the book results vary, even when searches are seconds apart. The Web results are skewed because of the TV series based on the novel. So, it seems that it is best to leave it as "Chamber" because this is how it is most commonly referred to in literature.-- Catch153 ( talk) 13:59, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
I removed links to translations which might imply Wikipedia approval. The Introduction to the first says: the Rev. Bramwell Seaton Bonsall, M.A., B.D., D.Lit. (Lond,) was a Wesleyan Methodist missionary to China from 1911 to 1926. After his return to England he continued his interest in China and the study of its language and literature. In the late 1920s he obtained his Doctorate, that involved a complete translation of the Zhan Guo Ce (Chan Kuo Ts’e), the Records of the Warring States. In his retirement in the 1950s he completed a translation of all 120 chapters of the Chinese novel, the Hung Lou Meng, often known as the Dream of the Red Chamber. This was later accepted for publication by The Asia Society of New York, but the project was abandoned when Penguin announced its proposed translation by Professor David Hawkes, with John Minford. These two translations by my father, made without having access to libraries or discussions with other scholars, were probably the first to be made into English of these two complete works." ch ( talk) 05:35, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
Friends --
I apologize for not making more clear Haun Saussy's significant and interesting point in the phrase which has been cut twice. His article "The Age of Attribution: Or, How the "Honglou Meng" Finally Acquired an Author," Chinese Literature: Essays, Articles, Reviews (CLEAR) (2003): 119-132. [1] does not simply make the point that Hu Shi established Cao’s authorship, but that the concept of “authorship” had not been important to earlier readers. It would have been relatively easy for nineteenth century readers to find Cao if that had been an important question to them, but in fact, argues Saussy, it was not. This is surprising to us today, so it seemed important to give a reliable source and to put its point carefully. Here is Saussyu’s own language
If nobody objects or comes up with a better wording, in a few days I will put a somewhat clearer version of this back into the sentence on Hu Shi. This is important in explaining how Chinese readers understood the novel and how our present day readings are different from earlier ones. Not that this should take up great space, however! Half a sentence is not excessive. ch ( talk) 02:38, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
I am thinking about adding the names used by Hawkes and Minford for the maids, so as to make the character descriptions more accessible for readers of their translation (which is probably the vast majority of English-language readers). So in the "additional names" parenthesis after Xi-Ren, there would be something like "Hawkes/Minford translation: Aroma". What do people think about this? -- Danny Yee ( talk) 19:38, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
Danny, thank you very much for adding those translations. I had added literal translations of the names a while back, but someone deleted them. I don't understand why someone did that. They are helpful in understanding some of the deeper meaning of the novel. The notably includes the songs and poems about the Twelve Beauties in Chapter 5.
Please do not delete someone's hard work unless there's a really good reason for doing so. The fact that Danny Yee added the Hawkes translations proves that someone found it worthwhile to see the names' translations.--
Catch153 (
talk) 02:57, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
Sevilledade has unilateral decided to remove the translated meanings of the names more than once. He said in the change notes "These are pretty laughable, literal translations of people's names. These are names, not suppose to have terrible literal translation of words." The names should remain that the meaning of the characters' names is significant, especially for English-speakers trying to interpret the actual Dream in Chapter 5. The names are not meant to "sound good," but they are important for research and interpretation of the novel.-- Catch153 ( talk) 17 November 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.166.51.68 ( talk)
Sevillidade has quite legitimate concerns that the article not become filled with extraneous material -- I know, because some of my additions have been subtracted! We also should respect the hard work and thought Sevillidade contributes not only to this article but to a number of others, especially on Chinese novels. He may have another legitimate concern that there be some consistency across them. But in this case, it seems to me that it is useful to have the literal meanings of the names. The meanings are part of the author's intent and most would be clear to Chinese readers. I hope Sevillidade could see clear to letting them stay this time. ch ( talk) 22:01, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
We need a good chart of the characters' relationships, something like a family tree. If this were made into a graphic, it would be easy to read but hard for others to edit and improve. Suggestions?-- Catch153 ( talk) 19:47, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
Creating the family tree of Red Chamber | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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I glanced through articles for a few of the other long novels, which mostly list the main characters, with a brief description. But Dream of the Red Chamber has more characters, and is unusual in that Cao Xueqin intended the names of the characters to convey something of their significance. So I agree that the meanings of the names should be on the main page, but I wonder if we couldn't make the page more reader friendly. One quick fix would be to move the "Characters" section to the end, after "Translations and Reception in the West."
Perhaps better is that we could create an independent article to which we would move "Other Notable Characters" and "Minor Characters" list and more details, such as is done for List of The Tale of Genji characters and List of War and Peace characters. The main article would have only the principle characters, with English versions of their names indicated.
My own feeling is that the second option is better, but I will hold off creating the new page until enough editors have weighed in. All the best for the holiday season. ch ( talk) 18:22, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
User DORC surely has a good point that some have put too much weight on this, but it doesn't seem right to ignore it either. So I've restored "and perhaps lovers" to the Qin Zhong section, because 1) the text of the novel clearly announces the possibility, in addition to the low minded accusations presented earlier (Hawkes Vol 1 206-209): "wait until we're both in bed and I'll settle accounts with you then." The narrator then says: "as for the 'settling of accounts,' ... we have been unable to ascertain exactly what form this took." Hawkes Vol 1 p. 300. 2) Jonathan Spence refers to Qin Zhong's "sexual initiation" with Sapientia and with Baoyu. "Ch'ing," in K.C. Chang, ed., Food in Chinese Culture (Yale University Press, 1977), p. 279.
I'd be happy to see better language than "and perhaps lovers," but there is strong enough evidence that readers are meant to have this "perhaps lovers" idea. I take this as one of the many marvelous minor touches which make the novel fascinating and resistant to definitive interpretation, so the "perhaps" seems good enough. Maybe somebody could give us an actual reference which doubts it. ch ( talk) 07:44, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
Editor ch added "perhaps lovers". He/she concedes it is his/her own reading (breach of WP:NOR), and cited a source which (a) does not support that statement and which (b) ch himself/herself contradicts (breach of WP:PSTS, passage quoted). It is not sufficient to cite a verifiable source. The source must support the edit! If this is breaking a butterfly on the wheel, so be it: but I hope ch is more robust (if not less charming) than a butterfly. Ridiculus mus ( talk) 10:38, 22 September 2012 (UTC). . . For example, an article about a novel may cite passages to describe the plot, but any interpretation needs a secondary source. Do not analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so
Policy: . . . A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the source but without further, specialized knowledge.
The article referred to as reference 19 (Cao Xueqin himself destroyed the 110 chapter Dream of the Red Chambers' last 30 chapters) contains nothing but ideology propaganda. The claim that Cao must have destroyed his last 30 chapters is because he foresaw and could not bear to accept that the "feudal" society he lived in is falling apart is laughable. Moreover, the referred article is also full of tolling that Cao is of inferior ideology (in the sense that he is a "ruling" class of the feudal society), which is not only flawed but also irrelevant to literature criticism. Please try to use reference which is logically/academically sound and/or has solid evidence within to support the view that Cao may have destroyed his last 30 chapters. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Liux0229 ( talk • contribs) 05:34, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
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I redirected the page The Story of Stone here, since it was a duplicate of this topic as far as I could see. I did want to include a link to the article history just in case there's anything that should be merged. ReaderofthePack(formerly Tokyogirl79) (。◕‿◕。) 20:36, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
The novel was written in the Qing dynasty, but the art work show that the characters were not dressed in the Qing style. So which era or dynasty was the novel set in? 2A00:23C5:C102:9E00:F4C0:1140:A9F8:1A7C ( talk) 14:22, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
73.254.192.168 ( talk) 06:58, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
This article mixes British and American spellings at the moment. Looking back into the page history, it seems that the page used realize before any -ise words crept in and disfavour was inserted one month later. [3] [4] Therefore, I think it should use Oxford spelling, as it did from 10 June 2005 until (seemingly?) 12 March 2007 when someone added an authorised and then the same person added a favorite a few hours later. [5] [6] Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 14:20, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Dream of the Red Chamber article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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I hope that a few things should be observed when doing the write-up on the characters.
Someone left a comment in the text "Please also refrain from writing about the 120-chapter ending (which was not the original writer's intent.)" In a brief survey of the Net I could not find any authoritative documentation of Cao's intent here. Can we see some references here? -- Slashem ( talk) 15:32, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Since there has been no reply, I have removed the comment. Please discuss here before reinstating it. -- Slashem ( talk) 18:19, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to suggest amending the description of Bonsall's translation as follows in order to give a more complete picture:
The typescript of another complete translation, by Dr Bramwell Seaton Bonsall, a Wesleyan Methodist missionary to China from 1911 to 1926, has been made available through the University of Hong Kong Libraries. The translation was completed in the 1950s and is accessible in pdf[2] from the library Web site. This version was accepted for publication by The Asia Society of New York but has not been officially published.
Jklai ( talk) 03:39, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
After my editing, i've got two reverts. One for too many spelling mistakes and one for neutrality. I didn't realize where did i broke the neutrality. So please help me to improve the article, Thanks a lot! 百家姓之四 討論 (Discussion) 04:11, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Some non-native English writers are writing something like Anglo-Chinese pidgin in this article. It must be rectified or the article will be unintelligible. 116.14.114.58 ( talk) 09:36, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
I am reading Dream of the Red Chamber. I thought it would be helpful to add details about the characters' names. Someone listed the traditional Chinese names, and I included the simplified Chinese, pinyin, Wade-Giles, and translation. I realize one of the previous anonymous editors removed translations of names. It will be helpful for readers to see the translations because the book sometimes makes puns and other references to the meaning of the names. Please do not remove them. I added notes about Wade-Giles, etc. because some online resources such as Cliffnotes do not use the Pinyin names, so it will help readers' research.
If it may be helpful to readers and their understanding of the novel, do not remove it. Thank you. -- Catch153 ( talk) 07:56, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
Assails Men?! Oh man, Who would call a girl this way? Why not translate the "supposed" meaning 花气袭人知骤暖? OK I know it is hard to explain that in English, but it worths a try. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Purpureleaf ( talk • contribs) 15:22, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
I bursted out laughing XD. though, it is correct, literally. Hermesw ( talk) 03:57, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
It was Baoyu's father who thought the name is crazy, not everyone.袭 doesn't mean assailing in 花气袭人知骤暖(Lu You's original poem). Surrounding or pleasing would be more suitable. 袭 is still used this way in modern Chinese.
"Garment person" is definitely wrong though. Surrounding or pleasing as the last comment suggested could be fine, but seems to lack the strong feeling. How about something like "overwhelming"? Nautilusfossil ( talk) 21:03, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
Does anyone know if this work (meaning at least the first 80 chapters) has been published in a simplified Chinese version? I was only able to locate a traditional character version. K. the Surveyor ( talk) 21:37, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
There are numerous versions published in simplified Chinese.-- 刻意(Kèyì) 08:03, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
I wasn't sure what translated title was most standard. I ran some Google searches for each version on Google Web search and Google Book Search:
Not the book results vary, even when searches are seconds apart. The Web results are skewed because of the TV series based on the novel. So, it seems that it is best to leave it as "Chamber" because this is how it is most commonly referred to in literature.-- Catch153 ( talk) 13:59, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
I removed links to translations which might imply Wikipedia approval. The Introduction to the first says: the Rev. Bramwell Seaton Bonsall, M.A., B.D., D.Lit. (Lond,) was a Wesleyan Methodist missionary to China from 1911 to 1926. After his return to England he continued his interest in China and the study of its language and literature. In the late 1920s he obtained his Doctorate, that involved a complete translation of the Zhan Guo Ce (Chan Kuo Ts’e), the Records of the Warring States. In his retirement in the 1950s he completed a translation of all 120 chapters of the Chinese novel, the Hung Lou Meng, often known as the Dream of the Red Chamber. This was later accepted for publication by The Asia Society of New York, but the project was abandoned when Penguin announced its proposed translation by Professor David Hawkes, with John Minford. These two translations by my father, made without having access to libraries or discussions with other scholars, were probably the first to be made into English of these two complete works." ch ( talk) 05:35, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
Friends --
I apologize for not making more clear Haun Saussy's significant and interesting point in the phrase which has been cut twice. His article "The Age of Attribution: Or, How the "Honglou Meng" Finally Acquired an Author," Chinese Literature: Essays, Articles, Reviews (CLEAR) (2003): 119-132. [1] does not simply make the point that Hu Shi established Cao’s authorship, but that the concept of “authorship” had not been important to earlier readers. It would have been relatively easy for nineteenth century readers to find Cao if that had been an important question to them, but in fact, argues Saussy, it was not. This is surprising to us today, so it seemed important to give a reliable source and to put its point carefully. Here is Saussyu’s own language
If nobody objects or comes up with a better wording, in a few days I will put a somewhat clearer version of this back into the sentence on Hu Shi. This is important in explaining how Chinese readers understood the novel and how our present day readings are different from earlier ones. Not that this should take up great space, however! Half a sentence is not excessive. ch ( talk) 02:38, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
I am thinking about adding the names used by Hawkes and Minford for the maids, so as to make the character descriptions more accessible for readers of their translation (which is probably the vast majority of English-language readers). So in the "additional names" parenthesis after Xi-Ren, there would be something like "Hawkes/Minford translation: Aroma". What do people think about this? -- Danny Yee ( talk) 19:38, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
Danny, thank you very much for adding those translations. I had added literal translations of the names a while back, but someone deleted them. I don't understand why someone did that. They are helpful in understanding some of the deeper meaning of the novel. The notably includes the songs and poems about the Twelve Beauties in Chapter 5.
Please do not delete someone's hard work unless there's a really good reason for doing so. The fact that Danny Yee added the Hawkes translations proves that someone found it worthwhile to see the names' translations.--
Catch153 (
talk) 02:57, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
Sevilledade has unilateral decided to remove the translated meanings of the names more than once. He said in the change notes "These are pretty laughable, literal translations of people's names. These are names, not suppose to have terrible literal translation of words." The names should remain that the meaning of the characters' names is significant, especially for English-speakers trying to interpret the actual Dream in Chapter 5. The names are not meant to "sound good," but they are important for research and interpretation of the novel.-- Catch153 ( talk) 17 November 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.166.51.68 ( talk)
Sevillidade has quite legitimate concerns that the article not become filled with extraneous material -- I know, because some of my additions have been subtracted! We also should respect the hard work and thought Sevillidade contributes not only to this article but to a number of others, especially on Chinese novels. He may have another legitimate concern that there be some consistency across them. But in this case, it seems to me that it is useful to have the literal meanings of the names. The meanings are part of the author's intent and most would be clear to Chinese readers. I hope Sevillidade could see clear to letting them stay this time. ch ( talk) 22:01, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
We need a good chart of the characters' relationships, something like a family tree. If this were made into a graphic, it would be easy to read but hard for others to edit and improve. Suggestions?-- Catch153 ( talk) 19:47, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
Creating the family tree of Red Chamber | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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I glanced through articles for a few of the other long novels, which mostly list the main characters, with a brief description. But Dream of the Red Chamber has more characters, and is unusual in that Cao Xueqin intended the names of the characters to convey something of their significance. So I agree that the meanings of the names should be on the main page, but I wonder if we couldn't make the page more reader friendly. One quick fix would be to move the "Characters" section to the end, after "Translations and Reception in the West."
Perhaps better is that we could create an independent article to which we would move "Other Notable Characters" and "Minor Characters" list and more details, such as is done for List of The Tale of Genji characters and List of War and Peace characters. The main article would have only the principle characters, with English versions of their names indicated.
My own feeling is that the second option is better, but I will hold off creating the new page until enough editors have weighed in. All the best for the holiday season. ch ( talk) 18:22, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
User DORC surely has a good point that some have put too much weight on this, but it doesn't seem right to ignore it either. So I've restored "and perhaps lovers" to the Qin Zhong section, because 1) the text of the novel clearly announces the possibility, in addition to the low minded accusations presented earlier (Hawkes Vol 1 206-209): "wait until we're both in bed and I'll settle accounts with you then." The narrator then says: "as for the 'settling of accounts,' ... we have been unable to ascertain exactly what form this took." Hawkes Vol 1 p. 300. 2) Jonathan Spence refers to Qin Zhong's "sexual initiation" with Sapientia and with Baoyu. "Ch'ing," in K.C. Chang, ed., Food in Chinese Culture (Yale University Press, 1977), p. 279.
I'd be happy to see better language than "and perhaps lovers," but there is strong enough evidence that readers are meant to have this "perhaps lovers" idea. I take this as one of the many marvelous minor touches which make the novel fascinating and resistant to definitive interpretation, so the "perhaps" seems good enough. Maybe somebody could give us an actual reference which doubts it. ch ( talk) 07:44, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
Editor ch added "perhaps lovers". He/she concedes it is his/her own reading (breach of WP:NOR), and cited a source which (a) does not support that statement and which (b) ch himself/herself contradicts (breach of WP:PSTS, passage quoted). It is not sufficient to cite a verifiable source. The source must support the edit! If this is breaking a butterfly on the wheel, so be it: but I hope ch is more robust (if not less charming) than a butterfly. Ridiculus mus ( talk) 10:38, 22 September 2012 (UTC). . . For example, an article about a novel may cite passages to describe the plot, but any interpretation needs a secondary source. Do not analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so
Policy: . . . A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the source but without further, specialized knowledge.
The article referred to as reference 19 (Cao Xueqin himself destroyed the 110 chapter Dream of the Red Chambers' last 30 chapters) contains nothing but ideology propaganda. The claim that Cao must have destroyed his last 30 chapters is because he foresaw and could not bear to accept that the "feudal" society he lived in is falling apart is laughable. Moreover, the referred article is also full of tolling that Cao is of inferior ideology (in the sense that he is a "ruling" class of the feudal society), which is not only flawed but also irrelevant to literature criticism. Please try to use reference which is logically/academically sound and/or has solid evidence within to support the view that Cao may have destroyed his last 30 chapters. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Liux0229 ( talk • contribs) 05:34, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
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I redirected the page The Story of Stone here, since it was a duplicate of this topic as far as I could see. I did want to include a link to the article history just in case there's anything that should be merged. ReaderofthePack(formerly Tokyogirl79) (。◕‿◕。) 20:36, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
The novel was written in the Qing dynasty, but the art work show that the characters were not dressed in the Qing style. So which era or dynasty was the novel set in? 2A00:23C5:C102:9E00:F4C0:1140:A9F8:1A7C ( talk) 14:22, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
73.254.192.168 ( talk) 06:58, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
This article mixes British and American spellings at the moment. Looking back into the page history, it seems that the page used realize before any -ise words crept in and disfavour was inserted one month later. [3] [4] Therefore, I think it should use Oxford spelling, as it did from 10 June 2005 until (seemingly?) 12 March 2007 when someone added an authorised and then the same person added a favorite a few hours later. [5] [6] Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 14:20, 26 October 2020 (UTC)