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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Strong oppose - the 2 (war criminal) redirects have just been deleted today... This is a bad idea to vote on this matter. Also, the term 'war criminal' is POV to say the least. We can only state things such as 'the UN have deemed him to be a war criminal'. Labelling someone by their profession is not POV. Labelling someone by their crimes is. There is not a single other article (or shouldn't be!) that is named in this way.-
Localzuk(talk)21:12, 5 December 2006 (UTC)reply
Oppose I agree with Localzuk. This proposed move is very POV. The article title is not the appropriate place for this. State it in a NPOV-manner in the article.
Bendono00:03, 6 December 2006 (UTC)reply
Strong support - the UN called him a war criminal; that should be enough. Besides, (commander) is so incredibly benign, as to be POV on its own, especially given that the only reason for his notability is his participation in the war tribunal.
Patstuarttalk|
edits06:32, 6 December 2006 (UTC)reply
Support. Nobody has provided evidence that he would be notable save for his war crimes. I do not agree in the least with the notion that it is improper to call a war criminal a war criminal.
Croctotheface 04:12, 9 December 2006 (UTC) For reference, here is my previous comment: I would want more information on whether he is notable for any reason other than being a war criminal. If he would be notable as a commander independent of his war crimes, then that's the label to use. If we only know his name because he committed war crimes, then that's how he should be identified. I am most definitely not opposed to using a label such as this one that appears to be POV if it fits and its applicability can be substantiated. In this respect I agree wholeheartedly with Patstuart, in that using a bland term that serves to disguise reality is rather egregious POV itself. Is it wrong to call a dictator a dictator or a terrorist a terrorist? Those terms also have negative denotations, but if they fit, they fit.
Croctotheface06:57, 6 December 2006 (UTC)reply
Comment: Names should not reflect notability but should relfect that person's job. Please point me to another article in this encyclopedia which is named in the way proposed. Naming an article by the person's conviction is extremely POV and strange. Maybe we should be looking for a seperate term instead of commander or war criminal? Also, to the other users, as I have said before - the UN does not cover all people, some people do not see him as a war criminal. Please do some thorough reading of our
neutrality policy and our
citation policy.-
Localzuk(talk)07:52, 6 December 2006 (UTC)reply
Comment - actually, we should avoid words like terrorist. See
Wikipedia:Words to aviod. However, if the UN has called him a war criminal, my argument says we should use that.
Comment on the above comment I think you mean
WP:WTA not
Wikipedia:Words to aviod since that page doesn't exist. But anyway, "war criminal" is not on that page as a word to avoid.
Strong support - This article should definitely be moved to
Dragan Nikolić (war criminal). Nikolic's notability is from his being a war criminal (he has no claim to fame as a commander, except for when he committed the crimes), so the title should reflect this. Also the term "war criminal" is not POV, especially if the person has actually been convicted of war crimes. "Bruatl war criminal" or "bloodthirsty war criminal" are examples of a POV title, as they have a negative adjective in front of "war criminal", but if it's just "war criminal" then it is right. -
Ivan K07:43, 6 December 2006 (UTC)reply
Support - Somewhere in
WP:STYLE I saw it mentioned that the (war criminal) disambiguation should be limited to those convicted of war crimes. (Can't find it now to link to, but it's there.) He was, he confessed, so what's the problem? The article's content consists exclusively of details of his complicity in war crimes, so it's not like the move would be in any way misrepresenting the article content. —
INTRIGUEBLUE (
talk|
contribs)
08:37, 6 December 2006 (UTC)reply
Support. Nikolić is known for his role as a war criminal not as a commander per se. I agree that Wikipedia is not the UN but calling "(war criminal)" POV is a stretch with a guilty plea and the accomanying evidence. A case to the contrary can be made in this article and arguments against the concept of war crimes in general can be aired at the
war crime article but, if this is POV, then
moon landing should be retitled
alleged moon landing. — AjaxSmack 05:07, 11 December 2006 (UTC)reply
Just so people know, I moved the article from (war criminal) to here and put both of the (war criminal) titled redirects up for deletion (both have been deleted as POV now). Someone else put this article up for deletion (which I disagree with as it is a notable subject).
Also,
WP:BLP requires us to provide sources for all claims on people. Please provide a source that covers every person in the world labelling this person as a war criminal. You will not be able to do this. His supporters will label him a hero etc... However, we can provide a reference to state that his job was 'commander'. Please take a look at
WP:WTA for more discussion on POV terms such as this.-
Localzuk(talk)21:16, 5 December 2006 (UTC)reply
Localzuk, you said "Please provide a source that covers every person in the world labelling this person as a war criminal. You will not be able to do this. His supporters will label him a hero etc... However, we can provide a reference to state that his job was 'commander'." Does that source you have stating that he is a hero also state that every person in the world knows he was a 'commander'? It's a bit of a double standard if you want a source saying everybody in the world labels him a war criminal for the title to say "war criminal", but you will settle for a source that has only a few people labeling him as a commander for the title to say "commander". Also, since Wikipedia is verifiability, and it has been verified that he is indeed a war criminal, then it's right for the title to say "war criminal". -
Ivan K07:43, 6 December 2006 (UTC)reply
You are trying to name him as 'war criminal' in the title, therefore you have to provide a reference to state that he is universally believed to be a war criminal. On the other hand, labelling him as commander should not be a problem - as this was his job and is backed up by a source...
Also, as I said, he has been labelled a war criminal by a single organisation - not everyone. The onus is on you to show that he has been so universally labelled. How about a different term?-
Localzuk(talk)07:52, 6 December 2006 (UTC)reply
You're still repeating your flawed argument from before. Why do you think it has to be universally labeled as a war criminal, but not universally labeled as a commander? There are references stating that an international court has convicted him of war crimes, so it's both truth and verifiability to call him a war criminal. And as I said before, "war criminal" on it's own is not POV, but adding a negative word in front of it (e.g "brutal", "bloodthirsty") or even an ethnic/national term in front of it (e.g Serb) would be POV, but on it's own, "war criminal" is just another neutral descriptive word, just like "commander". -
Ivan K07:59, 6 December 2006 (UTC)reply
The War Crimes Tribunal does not represent a full world view - simple really.
Also, I am a bit worried that you would think my actions would be considered in any way disruptive... I come to the article, remove a large amount of POV material in order to make it neutral, provide a reference for a previously unreferenced article. I then make use of the deletion process to see whether or not my thought that labelling an person as 'war criminal' in the title is POV - to which end the result was to delete both the redirects. Look how disruptive that is!! We now have an article with a pretty neutral tone, references and a neutral title! I am such a tyrant! Seriously, please take some time to read our
'assume good faith' policy.
I also note that you don't actually respond to any of my points regarding
WP:WTA and
WP:BLP regarding neutrality and words that we should not be using...
Please leave your POV at the door when editing, it does not help the site. I had not come across this article until recently when the POV category 'Serb War Criminals' was put up for CFD (and has now been deleted as POV - I'm seeing a pattern here).-
Localzuk(talk)21:39, 5 December 2006 (UTC)reply
I don't have a dog in this fight. For what it's worth, I mostly edit fluffy articles related to my hobbies. If there is a concerted effort on the part of some editors to POV push Serbs as war criminals, I can see why that would be cause for concern. However, to the idea that we should disambiguate based on occupation rather than notability, the point of disambiguation, per
WP:D, is to resolve ambiguity. It follows that someone's most notable identifier be used to disambiguate. If this individual is most notable as a war criminal rather than anything else, then the label is appropriate. And for the record, to the point above,
WP:WTA does allow for people to be labeled as terrorists, but acknowledges that the term should not be thrown around. "War criminal" does not appear in that guideline.
Croctotheface05:50, 7 December 2006 (UTC)reply
My mention of WP:WTA is to show that the general feeling on terms such as this is to avoid their usage. Yes, the word of the guideline doesn't mention it, but to me that is besides the point. Far too many people stick to the word of a policy and ignore the general purpose of the policy.-
Localzuk(talk)07:46, 7 December 2006 (UTC)reply
I actually don't even think the spirit of the guideline supports what you're saying. Most of it deals with weasely words like "claim" and "linked". The closest parallel is "terrorist", and the guideline holds that under certain circumstances articles can use the word. Futhermore, If this guy is a convicted war criminal, I don't see what's wrong with saying as much. And again, if he is more notable for reasons other than his war crimes, then those other actions or accomplishments should be used to disambiguate. if most people who might be looking for information on him know him because of his war crimes, then that's the most useful way to disambiguate.
Croctotheface17:21, 7 December 2006 (UTC)reply
Comment. There's actually a bigger problem with the article than the ostensibly POV title — the person is only notable for his war crimes but there's no article whatsoever (
Sušica detention camp?) about the
crimes he was convicted for. If there were one, this article would probably be redundant and merged into that one; his sole notability lies in the crimes he was convicted for, and
apart from that episode, his biography is fairly unremarkable, as he wasn't a notable commander or war leader.
Duja►09:39, 11 December 2006 (UTC)reply
I disagree. If an article needs creation, then it should be created. Being censored by the UN is a quite rare enough event that it automatically makes one notable (yes, yes, a subtle
jab of the organization is worked in there). One has to do something pretty bad and notable to be censored. Or so I think. Can anyone come up with information that says multitudes of people have been censored? -
Patstuarttalk|
edits10:09, 11 December 2006 (UTC)reply
Sorry, I don't quire follow you. My sole point is: if/when
Sušica detention camp article is created, the individual we're discussing about should earn a couple of sentences regarding his trial and conviction in that article, in its "Aftermath" or whatever section, as all other details of his life are fairly unremarkable. We don't have individual articles about e.g. 9/11 WTC bombers, do we? I'm not saying that out of censorship or anything, but just for the reason that this article cannot grow behind stub level, as the war crime and conviction is bound to be the only encyclopedic thing about Dragan Nikolić.
Duja►16:20, 11 December 2006 (UTC)reply
...in other words: I don't think that every person from
List of ICTY indictees should have an article: some more notable do, but many don't — it's often sufficient to mention their trials and/or convictions in article(s) regarding the massacres/events they participated in.
Duja►16:23, 11 December 2006 (UTC)reply
I agree with Duja here. The majority of the articles in the lists of indictees are never going to pass stub level. The information should be merged into articles about the places/events/actions the people were involved in. That would solve the issue of the article name also...-
Localzuk(talk)17:16, 11 December 2006 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to
join the project and
contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a
list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the
full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Strong oppose - the 2 (war criminal) redirects have just been deleted today... This is a bad idea to vote on this matter. Also, the term 'war criminal' is POV to say the least. We can only state things such as 'the UN have deemed him to be a war criminal'. Labelling someone by their profession is not POV. Labelling someone by their crimes is. There is not a single other article (or shouldn't be!) that is named in this way.-
Localzuk(talk)21:12, 5 December 2006 (UTC)reply
Oppose I agree with Localzuk. This proposed move is very POV. The article title is not the appropriate place for this. State it in a NPOV-manner in the article.
Bendono00:03, 6 December 2006 (UTC)reply
Strong support - the UN called him a war criminal; that should be enough. Besides, (commander) is so incredibly benign, as to be POV on its own, especially given that the only reason for his notability is his participation in the war tribunal.
Patstuarttalk|
edits06:32, 6 December 2006 (UTC)reply
Support. Nobody has provided evidence that he would be notable save for his war crimes. I do not agree in the least with the notion that it is improper to call a war criminal a war criminal.
Croctotheface 04:12, 9 December 2006 (UTC) For reference, here is my previous comment: I would want more information on whether he is notable for any reason other than being a war criminal. If he would be notable as a commander independent of his war crimes, then that's the label to use. If we only know his name because he committed war crimes, then that's how he should be identified. I am most definitely not opposed to using a label such as this one that appears to be POV if it fits and its applicability can be substantiated. In this respect I agree wholeheartedly with Patstuart, in that using a bland term that serves to disguise reality is rather egregious POV itself. Is it wrong to call a dictator a dictator or a terrorist a terrorist? Those terms also have negative denotations, but if they fit, they fit.
Croctotheface06:57, 6 December 2006 (UTC)reply
Comment: Names should not reflect notability but should relfect that person's job. Please point me to another article in this encyclopedia which is named in the way proposed. Naming an article by the person's conviction is extremely POV and strange. Maybe we should be looking for a seperate term instead of commander or war criminal? Also, to the other users, as I have said before - the UN does not cover all people, some people do not see him as a war criminal. Please do some thorough reading of our
neutrality policy and our
citation policy.-
Localzuk(talk)07:52, 6 December 2006 (UTC)reply
Comment - actually, we should avoid words like terrorist. See
Wikipedia:Words to aviod. However, if the UN has called him a war criminal, my argument says we should use that.
Comment on the above comment I think you mean
WP:WTA not
Wikipedia:Words to aviod since that page doesn't exist. But anyway, "war criminal" is not on that page as a word to avoid.
Strong support - This article should definitely be moved to
Dragan Nikolić (war criminal). Nikolic's notability is from his being a war criminal (he has no claim to fame as a commander, except for when he committed the crimes), so the title should reflect this. Also the term "war criminal" is not POV, especially if the person has actually been convicted of war crimes. "Bruatl war criminal" or "bloodthirsty war criminal" are examples of a POV title, as they have a negative adjective in front of "war criminal", but if it's just "war criminal" then it is right. -
Ivan K07:43, 6 December 2006 (UTC)reply
Support - Somewhere in
WP:STYLE I saw it mentioned that the (war criminal) disambiguation should be limited to those convicted of war crimes. (Can't find it now to link to, but it's there.) He was, he confessed, so what's the problem? The article's content consists exclusively of details of his complicity in war crimes, so it's not like the move would be in any way misrepresenting the article content. —
INTRIGUEBLUE (
talk|
contribs)
08:37, 6 December 2006 (UTC)reply
Support. Nikolić is known for his role as a war criminal not as a commander per se. I agree that Wikipedia is not the UN but calling "(war criminal)" POV is a stretch with a guilty plea and the accomanying evidence. A case to the contrary can be made in this article and arguments against the concept of war crimes in general can be aired at the
war crime article but, if this is POV, then
moon landing should be retitled
alleged moon landing. — AjaxSmack 05:07, 11 December 2006 (UTC)reply
Just so people know, I moved the article from (war criminal) to here and put both of the (war criminal) titled redirects up for deletion (both have been deleted as POV now). Someone else put this article up for deletion (which I disagree with as it is a notable subject).
Also,
WP:BLP requires us to provide sources for all claims on people. Please provide a source that covers every person in the world labelling this person as a war criminal. You will not be able to do this. His supporters will label him a hero etc... However, we can provide a reference to state that his job was 'commander'. Please take a look at
WP:WTA for more discussion on POV terms such as this.-
Localzuk(talk)21:16, 5 December 2006 (UTC)reply
Localzuk, you said "Please provide a source that covers every person in the world labelling this person as a war criminal. You will not be able to do this. His supporters will label him a hero etc... However, we can provide a reference to state that his job was 'commander'." Does that source you have stating that he is a hero also state that every person in the world knows he was a 'commander'? It's a bit of a double standard if you want a source saying everybody in the world labels him a war criminal for the title to say "war criminal", but you will settle for a source that has only a few people labeling him as a commander for the title to say "commander". Also, since Wikipedia is verifiability, and it has been verified that he is indeed a war criminal, then it's right for the title to say "war criminal". -
Ivan K07:43, 6 December 2006 (UTC)reply
You are trying to name him as 'war criminal' in the title, therefore you have to provide a reference to state that he is universally believed to be a war criminal. On the other hand, labelling him as commander should not be a problem - as this was his job and is backed up by a source...
Also, as I said, he has been labelled a war criminal by a single organisation - not everyone. The onus is on you to show that he has been so universally labelled. How about a different term?-
Localzuk(talk)07:52, 6 December 2006 (UTC)reply
You're still repeating your flawed argument from before. Why do you think it has to be universally labeled as a war criminal, but not universally labeled as a commander? There are references stating that an international court has convicted him of war crimes, so it's both truth and verifiability to call him a war criminal. And as I said before, "war criminal" on it's own is not POV, but adding a negative word in front of it (e.g "brutal", "bloodthirsty") or even an ethnic/national term in front of it (e.g Serb) would be POV, but on it's own, "war criminal" is just another neutral descriptive word, just like "commander". -
Ivan K07:59, 6 December 2006 (UTC)reply
The War Crimes Tribunal does not represent a full world view - simple really.
Also, I am a bit worried that you would think my actions would be considered in any way disruptive... I come to the article, remove a large amount of POV material in order to make it neutral, provide a reference for a previously unreferenced article. I then make use of the deletion process to see whether or not my thought that labelling an person as 'war criminal' in the title is POV - to which end the result was to delete both the redirects. Look how disruptive that is!! We now have an article with a pretty neutral tone, references and a neutral title! I am such a tyrant! Seriously, please take some time to read our
'assume good faith' policy.
I also note that you don't actually respond to any of my points regarding
WP:WTA and
WP:BLP regarding neutrality and words that we should not be using...
Please leave your POV at the door when editing, it does not help the site. I had not come across this article until recently when the POV category 'Serb War Criminals' was put up for CFD (and has now been deleted as POV - I'm seeing a pattern here).-
Localzuk(talk)21:39, 5 December 2006 (UTC)reply
I don't have a dog in this fight. For what it's worth, I mostly edit fluffy articles related to my hobbies. If there is a concerted effort on the part of some editors to POV push Serbs as war criminals, I can see why that would be cause for concern. However, to the idea that we should disambiguate based on occupation rather than notability, the point of disambiguation, per
WP:D, is to resolve ambiguity. It follows that someone's most notable identifier be used to disambiguate. If this individual is most notable as a war criminal rather than anything else, then the label is appropriate. And for the record, to the point above,
WP:WTA does allow for people to be labeled as terrorists, but acknowledges that the term should not be thrown around. "War criminal" does not appear in that guideline.
Croctotheface05:50, 7 December 2006 (UTC)reply
My mention of WP:WTA is to show that the general feeling on terms such as this is to avoid their usage. Yes, the word of the guideline doesn't mention it, but to me that is besides the point. Far too many people stick to the word of a policy and ignore the general purpose of the policy.-
Localzuk(talk)07:46, 7 December 2006 (UTC)reply
I actually don't even think the spirit of the guideline supports what you're saying. Most of it deals with weasely words like "claim" and "linked". The closest parallel is "terrorist", and the guideline holds that under certain circumstances articles can use the word. Futhermore, If this guy is a convicted war criminal, I don't see what's wrong with saying as much. And again, if he is more notable for reasons other than his war crimes, then those other actions or accomplishments should be used to disambiguate. if most people who might be looking for information on him know him because of his war crimes, then that's the most useful way to disambiguate.
Croctotheface17:21, 7 December 2006 (UTC)reply
Comment. There's actually a bigger problem with the article than the ostensibly POV title — the person is only notable for his war crimes but there's no article whatsoever (
Sušica detention camp?) about the
crimes he was convicted for. If there were one, this article would probably be redundant and merged into that one; his sole notability lies in the crimes he was convicted for, and
apart from that episode, his biography is fairly unremarkable, as he wasn't a notable commander or war leader.
Duja►09:39, 11 December 2006 (UTC)reply
I disagree. If an article needs creation, then it should be created. Being censored by the UN is a quite rare enough event that it automatically makes one notable (yes, yes, a subtle
jab of the organization is worked in there). One has to do something pretty bad and notable to be censored. Or so I think. Can anyone come up with information that says multitudes of people have been censored? -
Patstuarttalk|
edits10:09, 11 December 2006 (UTC)reply
Sorry, I don't quire follow you. My sole point is: if/when
Sušica detention camp article is created, the individual we're discussing about should earn a couple of sentences regarding his trial and conviction in that article, in its "Aftermath" or whatever section, as all other details of his life are fairly unremarkable. We don't have individual articles about e.g. 9/11 WTC bombers, do we? I'm not saying that out of censorship or anything, but just for the reason that this article cannot grow behind stub level, as the war crime and conviction is bound to be the only encyclopedic thing about Dragan Nikolić.
Duja►16:20, 11 December 2006 (UTC)reply
...in other words: I don't think that every person from
List of ICTY indictees should have an article: some more notable do, but many don't — it's often sufficient to mention their trials and/or convictions in article(s) regarding the massacres/events they participated in.
Duja►16:23, 11 December 2006 (UTC)reply
I agree with Duja here. The majority of the articles in the lists of indictees are never going to pass stub level. The information should be merged into articles about the places/events/actions the people were involved in. That would solve the issue of the article name also...-
Localzuk(talk)17:16, 11 December 2006 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.