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IP 47.152.48.31 ( talk · contribs) made good faith addition to the Terminology section in this edit which were unsourced. This addition has been moved here for further work.
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1019644214.
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Before the word gay was used to describe homosexual men, and before transgender individuals developed their modern terminology, a queen was any gbt person with a penis. A butch queen was a gay man whose gender expression was male. A femme queen was a gay man whose gender expression was more female, and a drag queen was anyone born with a penis who dressed in women's clothing. The term used for those who performed while wearing women's clothing varied. Female Impersonating was the original term used by many to describe their occupation. |
Thanks, Mathglot ( talk) 20:09, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
I just created an article on Arthur Blake. I’m not sure where he would best fit in this article, but undoubtedly he was the first entertainer to perform in drag at the White House during F.D.R.’s presidency and was a seminal entertainer of the Post World War II era. Also, this reference not only has a lot on Blake but on historically important female impersonators and drag artists which could be used to improve this article. 4meter4 ( talk) 16:29, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Drag queen has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Remove the word "feminine" from this line:
"Drag queens tend to go for a more exaggerated look with a lot more makeup than a typical feminine woman would wear."
Make-up does not define femininity. "typical woman" is sufficient 51.37.190.58 ( talk) 22:48, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
In 2018, drag queen Zuhal (Kawkab Zuhal) from Beirut released a video of her on Youtube explaining what drag is and the origin of the term “Drag” that was initiated during the Shakespearien times, and to stay true to the original meaning of the term, she launched the first arabic slang for a drag art that is a literal translation "فن الجر" (Fann El Jarr), people used to spell “drag” in arabic letters before the arabic term was launched. Now everyone uses the slang that Zuhal created. Kawkabzuhal ( talk) 09:07, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 27 August 2020 and 10 December 2020. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
FabZach13.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 19:49, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 27 January 2021 and 19 May 2021. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
SamanthaBethSchwartz. Peer reviewers:
Sierra.french.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 20:16, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
Are crossplayers normally considered a subtype of drag queens? They are performance artists dressing up as the opposite sex, but I think they might not share enough common culture. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MaitreyaVaruna ( talk • contribs) 19:58, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 27 September 2022 and 10 December 2022. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
GLEN4GNSE (
article contribs).
— Assignment last updated by GLEN4GNSE ( talk) 03:43, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
Recent bold changes to the lead paragraph by Arunr28 were undone as WP:OR, and for other reasons (detail at your Talk page). Valiant attempts to find compromise wording in the lead by User:Ulis255 are appreciated, and discussion here may, in the end, result in your wording or something like it being adopted.
Nevertheless, I've rolled the article back to the previous stable version before the recent flurry of changes to the WP:LEAD. This is partly because of WP:LEADFOLLOWSBODY, but mostly because this is a 20-year old article with 1,500 editors, because it is in a sensitive and controversial topic area which is subject to ArbCom discretionary sanctions, and because the stable wording in the lead took shape after significant and sometimes difficult discussions by many editors to achieve consensus. While bold editing is encouraged, that has been tried already; WP:CONSENSUS is core policy. Consensus can change, and this is the appropriate place to find out if it has. Please discuss proposed changes to the lead here, before making any further changes to it in the article. Thanks, Mathglot ( talk) 20:32, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
The lead paragraph should be changed for this reasons:
1. Being gay is not a gender. It's a sexual orientation. Just because a man is gay doesn't mean he does drag queen shows. Not all gay men have the same attitudes or the same personality because they have the same sexual orientation, just as not all Americans have the same attitudes or the same personality because they have the same nationality.
2. The same article defines Drag Queen as a show that is performed solely for entertainment purposes and says that anyone can do it, so being a drag queen should not be associated with homosexuality or being transgender as it promotes stereotypes.
Finally, I propose to replace the lead paragraph with this text:
Not to be confused with transgender people neither homosexual people, as a drag queen can be anyone regardless of gender identity or sexual orientation. Ulis255 ( talk) 01:21, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
I just rolled back 3 edits which appeared to be personal opinions with no sources and also had bad grammar. -- SergeWoodzing ( talk) 17:27, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
It has been 1 week since I proposed to change the lead paragraph of the article and there has been no opposition from users. Only the user Mathglot discussed, who said he agreed to change the lead paragraph, but did not specifically propose an alternative text to the one I proposed. It is clear that the lead paragraph needs to be changed, because the way it is written encourages stereotypes about gay men, in addition to misclassifying homosexuality as a gender. Homosexuality is a sexual orientation, not a gender. Ulis255 ( talk) 19:16, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
The article defines drag queen as a person who exaggerates female gender signifiers and gender roles for entertainment purposes. While the Oxford Dictionary defines Drag Queen as a person, who wears special, very bright or colorful women's clothing and makeup as part of an act of entertainment. As you can see, the definition of a Drag Queen does not mention any sexual orientation or gender identity, so clearly anyone can be a Drag Queen regardless of their sexual orientation or gender identity. It is an show of entertainment that anyone, regardless of their sexual orientation or gender identity can perform, so I see no problem in indicating in the lead paragraph that a person of any sexual orientation or gender identity can be a drag queen. Regarding the stereotypes of gay men, I say this because in the lead paragraph being a Drag Queen is linked to an overly general term such as 'gay man', being gay is only a sexual orientation, not a show that is It's done for entertainment and I think it encourages stereotypes about gay men, because the way the lead paragraph is written seems to imply that being a drag queen is a characteristic of being gay. On the other hand, it is true that it is more common to see Drag Queen people in the LGBT community, there are transgender people who do Drag Queen shows, so it would be more appropriate to use the phrase LGBT culture than Gay man ' and gay culture. Ulis255 ( talk) 14:34, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
The current version had a bit of an internal contradiction, so I was bold and simplified that bit to: "Historically, drag queens were usually gay men, and part of gay culture, but in more recent years other people also perform as drag queens, as well as in more mainstream settings." [1] - CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 21:22, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
@ SergeWoodzing: your edit is again taking this into the direction of implying that anyone, anywhere, at any time, who does some form of Drag (clothing), for any reason, is a drag queen. They're not. Please discuss here. - CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 18:42, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
Since 1972 I have quite a bit of experience on the subject of drag and drag queens. Have been following Wikipedia info about the subject(s) since 2008. I am still confused about some of the things I've seen in recent years. Here are some questions:
Sincerely confused, -- SergeWoodzing ( talk) 02:04, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
Objectivity is important. This article needs to discuss the ways that drag in general makes open jokes at cis women's expense and plight ("Anna Bortion," "Anna Rexic" - RuPaul's derogatory comments against cis women - the list goes on). 75.130.201.33 ( talk) 14:39, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
A relevant section in Jenkins' thesis is titled "Pseudo-Feminism and the Masking of Misogyny" and she cites her sources. Meghan Murphy wrote an article titled " Why has drag escaped critique from feminists and the LGBTQ community?". I realize Murphy is controversial but this particular article has been cited in Female Masculinities and the Gender Wars: The Politics of Sex by Finn Mackay (Bloomsbury, 2021). Murphy is a reliable source to express her personal views as a self-described socialist feminist. Whether you agree with it or not, there is a body of relevant literature that would seem to warrant some treatment in the entry. -- Mox La Push ( talk) 07:13, 15 June 2022 (UTC)The show works to promote messages of self-love and acceptance ; however, it also promotes many problematic and damaging stereotypes. This thesis conducts a feminist analysis in order to answer the question: How does RuPaul's Drag Race relate to hegemonic and oppressive stereotypes and roles associated with gender identity, sexual orientation, size, class, race and ethnicity? Does it challenge or reinforce such hegemonies? In order to answer these questions, this thesis examines visual imagery, narrative, and dialogue in the show, utilizes theories from cultural and women's studies, English and communications. It concludes that although Drag Race does engage in some subversive behavior, it ultimately reinforces harmful hegemonic stereotypes.
If and when laughter-creating satire is acceptable, and any object of such satire is acceptable, then the obvious satire, often sharp, even cruel, on what many people have considered exaggerated female vulgarity, which exists in the characters of some women and in the fantasies of many men, must be accepted on an equal footing. I would support the addition/admission of what's condescending and mean toward women in most drag acts, camouflaged by hilarity, as long as the aspect of the creative license inherent in regular satire is included. -- SergeWoodzing ( talk) 18:28, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
As noted, ancient theater, and up through Shakespeare and until modern times, there were no women in theater, and female characters were played by men dressed as women; theater existed mostly as a way to tell stories more visually than epic poems. Now, social media wants to tell us actors dressed as women is the same as drag, even though this article notes that drag queens tend to go for a more exaggerated look with a lot more makeup than a typical woman would wear. Drag is vaudeville or burlesque, not King Lear. I'm hunting for sources, but no one seemed to need the distinction until a year ago. DeknMike ( talk) 20:17, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
Video from a North Carolina public high school shows a drag queen rubbing their crotch against a student's crotch. This was a school sanctioned event. As this happens, the adults in the room cheer. None of them try to protect the student. This article is from Fox News.
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/nc-public-school-says-looking-161425523.html
SquirrelHill1971 ( talk) 22:13, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
I do not agree with this revert. The person depicted is not notable. Their nationality is no reason on its own to add a photo of them. Hundreds of non-notable images could be added if we start this. Will remove it again, unless someone here can come up with a good not to. -- SergeWoodzing ( talk) 11:11, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
" Paris is burning", realness and ballroom culture don't get any attention on the page?
Is this on purpose? because it seems like a giant oversight and an extremely thematic one at that.
(ballroom culture is in the "see also", but that seems way too little) 85.147.66.47 ( talk) 19:56, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Archiving was seriously messed up. The following steps have been taken:
|counter=
has been reset to '5'.Archiving should be fixed now, and good to go. Future bot edits should begin moving discussions from here, to Archive_5, when they satisfy the bot config. Mathglot ( talk) 19:54, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
IP 47.152.48.31 ( talk · contribs) made good faith addition to the Terminology section in this edit which were unsourced. This addition has been moved here for further work.
Copy of added material from revision
1019644214.
|
---|
Before the word gay was used to describe homosexual men, and before transgender individuals developed their modern terminology, a queen was any gbt person with a penis. A butch queen was a gay man whose gender expression was male. A femme queen was a gay man whose gender expression was more female, and a drag queen was anyone born with a penis who dressed in women's clothing. The term used for those who performed while wearing women's clothing varied. Female Impersonating was the original term used by many to describe their occupation. |
Thanks, Mathglot ( talk) 20:09, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
I just created an article on Arthur Blake. I’m not sure where he would best fit in this article, but undoubtedly he was the first entertainer to perform in drag at the White House during F.D.R.’s presidency and was a seminal entertainer of the Post World War II era. Also, this reference not only has a lot on Blake but on historically important female impersonators and drag artists which could be used to improve this article. 4meter4 ( talk) 16:29, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Drag queen has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Remove the word "feminine" from this line:
"Drag queens tend to go for a more exaggerated look with a lot more makeup than a typical feminine woman would wear."
Make-up does not define femininity. "typical woman" is sufficient 51.37.190.58 ( talk) 22:48, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
In 2018, drag queen Zuhal (Kawkab Zuhal) from Beirut released a video of her on Youtube explaining what drag is and the origin of the term “Drag” that was initiated during the Shakespearien times, and to stay true to the original meaning of the term, she launched the first arabic slang for a drag art that is a literal translation "فن الجر" (Fann El Jarr), people used to spell “drag” in arabic letters before the arabic term was launched. Now everyone uses the slang that Zuhal created. Kawkabzuhal ( talk) 09:07, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 27 August 2020 and 10 December 2020. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
FabZach13.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 19:49, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 27 January 2021 and 19 May 2021. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
SamanthaBethSchwartz. Peer reviewers:
Sierra.french.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 20:16, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
Are crossplayers normally considered a subtype of drag queens? They are performance artists dressing up as the opposite sex, but I think they might not share enough common culture. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MaitreyaVaruna ( talk • contribs) 19:58, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 27 September 2022 and 10 December 2022. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
GLEN4GNSE (
article contribs).
— Assignment last updated by GLEN4GNSE ( talk) 03:43, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
Recent bold changes to the lead paragraph by Arunr28 were undone as WP:OR, and for other reasons (detail at your Talk page). Valiant attempts to find compromise wording in the lead by User:Ulis255 are appreciated, and discussion here may, in the end, result in your wording or something like it being adopted.
Nevertheless, I've rolled the article back to the previous stable version before the recent flurry of changes to the WP:LEAD. This is partly because of WP:LEADFOLLOWSBODY, but mostly because this is a 20-year old article with 1,500 editors, because it is in a sensitive and controversial topic area which is subject to ArbCom discretionary sanctions, and because the stable wording in the lead took shape after significant and sometimes difficult discussions by many editors to achieve consensus. While bold editing is encouraged, that has been tried already; WP:CONSENSUS is core policy. Consensus can change, and this is the appropriate place to find out if it has. Please discuss proposed changes to the lead here, before making any further changes to it in the article. Thanks, Mathglot ( talk) 20:32, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
The lead paragraph should be changed for this reasons:
1. Being gay is not a gender. It's a sexual orientation. Just because a man is gay doesn't mean he does drag queen shows. Not all gay men have the same attitudes or the same personality because they have the same sexual orientation, just as not all Americans have the same attitudes or the same personality because they have the same nationality.
2. The same article defines Drag Queen as a show that is performed solely for entertainment purposes and says that anyone can do it, so being a drag queen should not be associated with homosexuality or being transgender as it promotes stereotypes.
Finally, I propose to replace the lead paragraph with this text:
Not to be confused with transgender people neither homosexual people, as a drag queen can be anyone regardless of gender identity or sexual orientation. Ulis255 ( talk) 01:21, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
I just rolled back 3 edits which appeared to be personal opinions with no sources and also had bad grammar. -- SergeWoodzing ( talk) 17:27, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
It has been 1 week since I proposed to change the lead paragraph of the article and there has been no opposition from users. Only the user Mathglot discussed, who said he agreed to change the lead paragraph, but did not specifically propose an alternative text to the one I proposed. It is clear that the lead paragraph needs to be changed, because the way it is written encourages stereotypes about gay men, in addition to misclassifying homosexuality as a gender. Homosexuality is a sexual orientation, not a gender. Ulis255 ( talk) 19:16, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
The article defines drag queen as a person who exaggerates female gender signifiers and gender roles for entertainment purposes. While the Oxford Dictionary defines Drag Queen as a person, who wears special, very bright or colorful women's clothing and makeup as part of an act of entertainment. As you can see, the definition of a Drag Queen does not mention any sexual orientation or gender identity, so clearly anyone can be a Drag Queen regardless of their sexual orientation or gender identity. It is an show of entertainment that anyone, regardless of their sexual orientation or gender identity can perform, so I see no problem in indicating in the lead paragraph that a person of any sexual orientation or gender identity can be a drag queen. Regarding the stereotypes of gay men, I say this because in the lead paragraph being a Drag Queen is linked to an overly general term such as 'gay man', being gay is only a sexual orientation, not a show that is It's done for entertainment and I think it encourages stereotypes about gay men, because the way the lead paragraph is written seems to imply that being a drag queen is a characteristic of being gay. On the other hand, it is true that it is more common to see Drag Queen people in the LGBT community, there are transgender people who do Drag Queen shows, so it would be more appropriate to use the phrase LGBT culture than Gay man ' and gay culture. Ulis255 ( talk) 14:34, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
The current version had a bit of an internal contradiction, so I was bold and simplified that bit to: "Historically, drag queens were usually gay men, and part of gay culture, but in more recent years other people also perform as drag queens, as well as in more mainstream settings." [1] - CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 21:22, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
@ SergeWoodzing: your edit is again taking this into the direction of implying that anyone, anywhere, at any time, who does some form of Drag (clothing), for any reason, is a drag queen. They're not. Please discuss here. - CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 18:42, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
Since 1972 I have quite a bit of experience on the subject of drag and drag queens. Have been following Wikipedia info about the subject(s) since 2008. I am still confused about some of the things I've seen in recent years. Here are some questions:
Sincerely confused, -- SergeWoodzing ( talk) 02:04, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
Objectivity is important. This article needs to discuss the ways that drag in general makes open jokes at cis women's expense and plight ("Anna Bortion," "Anna Rexic" - RuPaul's derogatory comments against cis women - the list goes on). 75.130.201.33 ( talk) 14:39, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
A relevant section in Jenkins' thesis is titled "Pseudo-Feminism and the Masking of Misogyny" and she cites her sources. Meghan Murphy wrote an article titled " Why has drag escaped critique from feminists and the LGBTQ community?". I realize Murphy is controversial but this particular article has been cited in Female Masculinities and the Gender Wars: The Politics of Sex by Finn Mackay (Bloomsbury, 2021). Murphy is a reliable source to express her personal views as a self-described socialist feminist. Whether you agree with it or not, there is a body of relevant literature that would seem to warrant some treatment in the entry. -- Mox La Push ( talk) 07:13, 15 June 2022 (UTC)The show works to promote messages of self-love and acceptance ; however, it also promotes many problematic and damaging stereotypes. This thesis conducts a feminist analysis in order to answer the question: How does RuPaul's Drag Race relate to hegemonic and oppressive stereotypes and roles associated with gender identity, sexual orientation, size, class, race and ethnicity? Does it challenge or reinforce such hegemonies? In order to answer these questions, this thesis examines visual imagery, narrative, and dialogue in the show, utilizes theories from cultural and women's studies, English and communications. It concludes that although Drag Race does engage in some subversive behavior, it ultimately reinforces harmful hegemonic stereotypes.
If and when laughter-creating satire is acceptable, and any object of such satire is acceptable, then the obvious satire, often sharp, even cruel, on what many people have considered exaggerated female vulgarity, which exists in the characters of some women and in the fantasies of many men, must be accepted on an equal footing. I would support the addition/admission of what's condescending and mean toward women in most drag acts, camouflaged by hilarity, as long as the aspect of the creative license inherent in regular satire is included. -- SergeWoodzing ( talk) 18:28, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
As noted, ancient theater, and up through Shakespeare and until modern times, there were no women in theater, and female characters were played by men dressed as women; theater existed mostly as a way to tell stories more visually than epic poems. Now, social media wants to tell us actors dressed as women is the same as drag, even though this article notes that drag queens tend to go for a more exaggerated look with a lot more makeup than a typical woman would wear. Drag is vaudeville or burlesque, not King Lear. I'm hunting for sources, but no one seemed to need the distinction until a year ago. DeknMike ( talk) 20:17, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
Video from a North Carolina public high school shows a drag queen rubbing their crotch against a student's crotch. This was a school sanctioned event. As this happens, the adults in the room cheer. None of them try to protect the student. This article is from Fox News.
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/nc-public-school-says-looking-161425523.html
SquirrelHill1971 ( talk) 22:13, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
I do not agree with this revert. The person depicted is not notable. Their nationality is no reason on its own to add a photo of them. Hundreds of non-notable images could be added if we start this. Will remove it again, unless someone here can come up with a good not to. -- SergeWoodzing ( talk) 11:11, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
" Paris is burning", realness and ballroom culture don't get any attention on the page?
Is this on purpose? because it seems like a giant oversight and an extremely thematic one at that.
(ballroom culture is in the "see also", but that seems way too little) 85.147.66.47 ( talk) 19:56, 20 June 2023 (UTC)