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I don't think this viewpoint is restricted to gay men. However, it needs to be attributed to a named advocate, with a referenced quote. Martin 16:03 26 Jul 2003 (UTC)
The bit about "Drag queens were formerly called transvestites." isn't quite correct, and what is said about transvestitism in the following sentences is very much misleading.
And I very moch doubt that the "Drag is best thought of as a hobby, profession, or art form rather than as a sexual orientation or gender identity." part is NPOV. Again, it's also not correct - for some people, Drag Queen is their gender identity. --
AlexR 21:27 26 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Isn't it funny - as of today we are having pretty much the same debate again. A person named "Exploding Boy" feels like putting pretty much the same stuff in again. Funny, isn't it. Still does not make his claims that Drag Queens and Kings are not transgendered, but gays and lesbinans only, any more correct. -- AlexR 16:15, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I would also like to reiterate that too much useful information is being removed from this article. One example is the definition of transvestism. The layout keeps getting shuffled around as well, making it far less easy to read. Exploding Boy 22:18, Apr 11, 2004 (UTC)
The definition of transvestitism nowadays being used only for fetishistic transvestitism is simply false. And even if it were not, it does not belong here. The layout was simply put back to where it was before your edit, because it makes a lot more sense to voice "opinions" after it has been explained what the article is about. -- AlexR 22:38, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)
If you're going to claim my definition is wrong the least you can do is provide your own for comparison. A definition of transvestism on this page is a good way to underscore the difference between drag queens and transvestites and make it clearer to those who might not know.
A single page on drag could easily and comfortably include sections on drag queens (still a short article) and kings (a very short article) and other people who do drag. Merging these topics under drag would solve the problem of people feeling they have to put in notes about every type of person who might do drag under both articles.
A straight man who wears women's clothing may be in drag, but he's not a drag queen. A woman in women's clothing may be in drag but she's certainly not a drag queen (and someone has claimed in this article that women can be drag queens too). There are many people of all genders and sexual orientations who do drag, but only gay men are properly called drag queens.
(Response to above) Yes, we do exist and have been going strong for years. We are forging into the age of 'pomosexualism' and gender performers should not be categorized by others based on a supposed sex or gender identification. Being a drag queen is a fine art. The purposes for creating art are infinite. Drag is the creation of a personna, the delivery of the aforementioned, and achieving a connective relationship with the audience and co-performers. An artist can paint on canvas or a public sidewalk- is the production less esthetically valuable depending on the specific surface upon which it has been painted? Moreover, being a drag queen is not about impersonating women, rather it is the attempt to incarnate an idea of high femininity. TK (UMN)
It's good to know that there are people who watch this and other articles, but if you don't have time to edit them for clarity and writing style, which they clearly need, then make your objections known, but don't try to stop others from improving them. Exploding Boy 03:35, Apr 12, 2004 (UTC)
ETA: I'm also wondering why you chose to remove the following sentence rather than modify it if you felt that was necessary: By courtesy, most drag queens are usually referred to by their drag name or with the pronoun " she" while in drag, and dislike being called by their legal names while in costume. Drag performers protect their characters fiercely. EB
I have attempted to combine both drag queen and drag king in a single article on drag. I haven't redirected these pages yet. Please take a look at the article and let me know what you think. Exploding Boy 08:50, Apr 12, 2004 (UTC)
They are sufficiently related to be merged -- it's all drag! -- at least for now while there is little information in the individual articles (and there hasn't been any work on them for at least several months). The format works well because, once again, it's all drag, and having them together provides a good contrast and makes for a more complete, more informative, and easier to understand article, which even as it is still needs a lot of work. "Expand my horizon"? "Ridiculous"? Why? I disagree with your point of view but I have gone to fairly great pains to include it in -- actually, to integrate it into -- the article. I don't mind that you disagree with me, I respect your opinion, but your criticism is not constructive at all. I don't know how much you've edited it and this is not to criticise you personally, but you seem intent on keeping this article exactly as it is: incomplete, badly written and just generally not very good. What I'm trying to do is (a) make it more informative, (b) make it more complete, (c) make it more encyclopaedic, and (d) make it read better. Even a temporary redirect until someone takes the time to flesh out all three articles sufficiently that they can stand alone would be better. I really don't know why you object so strenuously, and I'd very much like to hear some other opinions. Exploding Boy 13:00, Apr 12, 2004 (UTC)
I am getting a feeling that arguing with you is a rather pointless excercise, because you don't listen to what I say. Until you do, this is the last time I'll bother. Don't worry, though, I'll keep watching the pages.
BTW, I did the List of transgender-related topics, that should solve the link problem. Maybe you should read through the articles before messing around any more. -- AlexR 15:51, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)
..............
Okay, I've done a bit of a rewrite on this article, trying to address some concerns from both sides.
I find you exceedingly frustrating to work with because of your constant barbs; it's really not necessary. I can still see them only when you write them in the "summary" field, you know. It's not that I don't listen to what you say, it's that you rarely say anything constructive:
OK, now we're getting somewhere. I thought you were objecting to that too. Exploding Boy 01:40, Apr 13, 2004 (UTC)
Okay, to try and clarify the transgender issue in a simple way, transGENDER is a loose term and does not mean a permanent change. Meaning, anyone who crossdresses, is in drag, etc. for the time is transgender. TransSEXUAL is when you self-identify with the opposite gender and take means to become or act more like the other gender. Gender is a state of mind, sex is physical. In no show I have ever been in (I am a king), has the sexual orientation of the people in drag made a difference in what we call them. I have never heard of a queen only being a gay man. In fact, I have worked with straight and bisexual men in shows and we did not differentiate between them and the gay queens also in the show. LGBT people are working to end discrimination, why would we discriminate against people in shows?
I was just wondering if the word "drag" was created by combining fag and something else?
I wonder whether that should not get its own article, there is certainly the potential for an article on its own. Also, "Drag shows" are by no means done by drag queens alone, another reason to move it away from this article. Any other opinions? -- AlexR 15:03, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I went for the first time to the Cabaret Mado, on november 2004, it was great. I am a young heterosexual girl and this was a first for me. I highly recommende it for every one, the Cabaret Mado on Ste Catharine Streets in Mtl.
Am I the only one who thinks that the list of "famous" drag queens needs some pruning. For one thing, every red-linked name should be deleted (except probably Danny La Rue, who needs someone from the UK to do a good writeup on him). Some of the external links also need to be checked and pruned. gK ¿? 08:46, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Cu, FreddyE (no signature, cause no user account. I normally don´t write anything in the english wikipedia)
Aaron, can you explain what part of the Wikipedia external link policy you were thinking of when you removed all those external links? -- Icarus 07:11, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
"Queer community" may be an acceptable term in some parts of the United States, but for most of a planet it is a term most gay and people do their damnest to avoid, finding it an absurd made-up PC term. (In fact the only time it is used in many parts of western Europe is among hard core left wing writers and among some academics, though even in academia many gay groups have complained about Queer Studies. So for an article to use a term that is almost exclusively associated with the left radical wing of the gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered community, expecially when most members of the community worldwide find the term patronising at best, insulting at worst, is distinctly POV and unacceptable. FearÉIREANN 06:59 26 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Aaron, can you explain what part of the Wikipedia external link policy you were thinking of when you removed all those external links? -- Icarus 07:11, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
Sure, thanks for opening discussion!
These all fall under
Wikipedia:External_links#What_should_not_be_linked_to point two:
And this one didn't meet Wikipedia:External_links#What_should_be_linked_to:
brenneman (t) (c) 07:25, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
I don't think this viewpoint is restricted to gay men. However, it needs to be attributed to a named advocate, with a referenced quote. Martin 16:03 26 Jul 2003 (UTC)
The bit about "Drag queens were formerly called transvestites." isn't quite correct, and what is said about transvestitism in the following sentences is very much misleading.
And I very moch doubt that the "Drag is best thought of as a hobby, profession, or art form rather than as a sexual orientation or gender identity." part is NPOV. Again, it's also not correct - for some people, Drag Queen is their gender identity. --
AlexR 21:27 26 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Isn't it funny - as of today we are having pretty much the same debate again. A person named "Exploding Boy" feels like putting pretty much the same stuff in again. Funny, isn't it. Still does not make his claims that Drag Queens and Kings are not transgendered, but gays and lesbinans only, any more correct. -- AlexR 16:15, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I would also like to reiterate that too much useful information is being removed from this article. One example is the definition of transvestism. The layout keeps getting shuffled around as well, making it far less easy to read. Exploding Boy 22:18, Apr 11, 2004 (UTC)
The definition of transvestitism nowadays being used only for fetishistic transvestitism is simply false. And even if it were not, it does not belong here. The layout was simply put back to where it was before your edit, because it makes a lot more sense to voice "opinions" after it has been explained what the article is about. -- AlexR 22:38, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)
If you're going to claim my definition is wrong the least you can do is provide your own for comparison. A definition of transvestism on this page is a good way to underscore the difference between drag queens and transvestites and make it clearer to those who might not know.
A single page on drag could easily and comfortably include sections on drag queens (still a short article) and kings (a very short article) and other people who do drag. Merging these topics under drag would solve the problem of people feeling they have to put in notes about every type of person who might do drag under both articles.
A straight man who wears women's clothing may be in drag, but he's not a drag queen. A woman in women's clothing may be in drag but she's certainly not a drag queen (and someone has claimed in this article that women can be drag queens too). There are many people of all genders and sexual orientations who do drag, but only gay men are properly called drag queens.
(Response to above) Yes, we do exist and have been going strong for years. We are forging into the age of 'pomosexualism' and gender performers should not be categorized by others based on a supposed sex or gender identification. Being a drag queen is a fine art. The purposes for creating art are infinite. Drag is the creation of a personna, the delivery of the aforementioned, and achieving a connective relationship with the audience and co-performers. An artist can paint on canvas or a public sidewalk- is the production less esthetically valuable depending on the specific surface upon which it has been painted? Moreover, being a drag queen is not about impersonating women, rather it is the attempt to incarnate an idea of high femininity. TK (UMN)
It's good to know that there are people who watch this and other articles, but if you don't have time to edit them for clarity and writing style, which they clearly need, then make your objections known, but don't try to stop others from improving them. Exploding Boy 03:35, Apr 12, 2004 (UTC)
ETA: I'm also wondering why you chose to remove the following sentence rather than modify it if you felt that was necessary: By courtesy, most drag queens are usually referred to by their drag name or with the pronoun " she" while in drag, and dislike being called by their legal names while in costume. Drag performers protect their characters fiercely. EB
I have attempted to combine both drag queen and drag king in a single article on drag. I haven't redirected these pages yet. Please take a look at the article and let me know what you think. Exploding Boy 08:50, Apr 12, 2004 (UTC)
They are sufficiently related to be merged -- it's all drag! -- at least for now while there is little information in the individual articles (and there hasn't been any work on them for at least several months). The format works well because, once again, it's all drag, and having them together provides a good contrast and makes for a more complete, more informative, and easier to understand article, which even as it is still needs a lot of work. "Expand my horizon"? "Ridiculous"? Why? I disagree with your point of view but I have gone to fairly great pains to include it in -- actually, to integrate it into -- the article. I don't mind that you disagree with me, I respect your opinion, but your criticism is not constructive at all. I don't know how much you've edited it and this is not to criticise you personally, but you seem intent on keeping this article exactly as it is: incomplete, badly written and just generally not very good. What I'm trying to do is (a) make it more informative, (b) make it more complete, (c) make it more encyclopaedic, and (d) make it read better. Even a temporary redirect until someone takes the time to flesh out all three articles sufficiently that they can stand alone would be better. I really don't know why you object so strenuously, and I'd very much like to hear some other opinions. Exploding Boy 13:00, Apr 12, 2004 (UTC)
I am getting a feeling that arguing with you is a rather pointless excercise, because you don't listen to what I say. Until you do, this is the last time I'll bother. Don't worry, though, I'll keep watching the pages.
BTW, I did the List of transgender-related topics, that should solve the link problem. Maybe you should read through the articles before messing around any more. -- AlexR 15:51, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)
..............
Okay, I've done a bit of a rewrite on this article, trying to address some concerns from both sides.
I find you exceedingly frustrating to work with because of your constant barbs; it's really not necessary. I can still see them only when you write them in the "summary" field, you know. It's not that I don't listen to what you say, it's that you rarely say anything constructive:
OK, now we're getting somewhere. I thought you were objecting to that too. Exploding Boy 01:40, Apr 13, 2004 (UTC)
Okay, to try and clarify the transgender issue in a simple way, transGENDER is a loose term and does not mean a permanent change. Meaning, anyone who crossdresses, is in drag, etc. for the time is transgender. TransSEXUAL is when you self-identify with the opposite gender and take means to become or act more like the other gender. Gender is a state of mind, sex is physical. In no show I have ever been in (I am a king), has the sexual orientation of the people in drag made a difference in what we call them. I have never heard of a queen only being a gay man. In fact, I have worked with straight and bisexual men in shows and we did not differentiate between them and the gay queens also in the show. LGBT people are working to end discrimination, why would we discriminate against people in shows?
I was just wondering if the word "drag" was created by combining fag and something else?
I wonder whether that should not get its own article, there is certainly the potential for an article on its own. Also, "Drag shows" are by no means done by drag queens alone, another reason to move it away from this article. Any other opinions? -- AlexR 15:03, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I went for the first time to the Cabaret Mado, on november 2004, it was great. I am a young heterosexual girl and this was a first for me. I highly recommende it for every one, the Cabaret Mado on Ste Catharine Streets in Mtl.
Am I the only one who thinks that the list of "famous" drag queens needs some pruning. For one thing, every red-linked name should be deleted (except probably Danny La Rue, who needs someone from the UK to do a good writeup on him). Some of the external links also need to be checked and pruned. gK ¿? 08:46, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Cu, FreddyE (no signature, cause no user account. I normally don´t write anything in the english wikipedia)
Aaron, can you explain what part of the Wikipedia external link policy you were thinking of when you removed all those external links? -- Icarus 07:11, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
"Queer community" may be an acceptable term in some parts of the United States, but for most of a planet it is a term most gay and people do their damnest to avoid, finding it an absurd made-up PC term. (In fact the only time it is used in many parts of western Europe is among hard core left wing writers and among some academics, though even in academia many gay groups have complained about Queer Studies. So for an article to use a term that is almost exclusively associated with the left radical wing of the gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered community, expecially when most members of the community worldwide find the term patronising at best, insulting at worst, is distinctly POV and unacceptable. FearÉIREANN 06:59 26 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Aaron, can you explain what part of the Wikipedia external link policy you were thinking of when you removed all those external links? -- Icarus 07:11, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
Sure, thanks for opening discussion!
These all fall under
Wikipedia:External_links#What_should_not_be_linked_to point two:
And this one didn't meet Wikipedia:External_links#What_should_be_linked_to:
brenneman (t) (c) 07:25, 4 October 2005 (UTC)