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I have been to the Dr. King Library, and while it is quite big, I highly doubt that it is the largest library west of the Mississippi. That sentence comes directly from the SJPL's website... nowhere else, can someone verify this? I'll try to do it myself, but help would be appreciated.
Nevhood
20:52, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
When this library was built there was a significant amount of debate regarding the merits of combining a public library and a university library under a single roof. Does anyone have reference to the articles in the SJ Mercury news of this? There also were several architectural critiques of the building. The original MLK library was in front of the SJ Convention Center. I know one of the criticisms of the new public library was that the light rail no longer stops right in front of the building. The art installations also were thought to be very interesting, I cannot remember the artist. I believe the construction costs were higher than anticipated... and it was a public project. Minnaert 17:58, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
The Vietnamese name for the King Library is Thư Viện King WhisperToMe ( talk) 16:31, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved. So yes, Dicklyon's original bold move could have been reverted before this move request, and in closing this, I am viewing the long standing page name as the "default" one. However, from this RM there is now a clear consensus here that the current title is the best one, per our preferences at WP:JR, and the fact that sources do not exclusively use one form. For the record, I am interpreting the grandfathering clause in the RfC as indicating that although we shouldn't dive in and change those older and FA articles wholesale, they are not immune from gaining consensus at an RM such as this, and the grandfathering isn't in itself a policy based reason against a move. — Amakuru ( talk) 11:58, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Library →
Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Library – The building signage uses the comma before the Jr. Some web pages, such as the Library's home page, do not use the comma, but that is just what is in some computer. Let us use the name that is reality-based. Note that
Martin Luther King, Jr. was recently moved to use the comma.
130.65.109.103 (
talk)
19:14, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
Randy Kryn's accusations "
Dicklyon ... knew darn well it's a controversial move" (to remove the comma), and "you know things about King are always controversial", are patently false. The comma removal complies with the guideline, it was recently the subject of a site-wide RfC at Village Pump (which explicitly used MLK as the example, right in its heading) and concluded against the commas, the exact same question was already addressed at
Talk:Martin Luther King Jr. Day, and every RM since then on the topic has been "controversial" only to 1–3 editors out of all the thousands of active ones, while all these RMs have gone against the comma, and removing it via direct moves or
WP:RM#TR is now routine. This campaigning to re-litigate the issue by opposing every single MOS:JR compliance move in hopes that everyone will get tired and give up is not going to work. It's just vexatious, tendentious, and frivolous.
—
SMcCandlish ☺
☏
¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼
21:21, 7 May 2016 (UTC)
mislead people about Dr. King's full name- This is at the core of the disagreement on CBJ (that's become such a commonly-used term, it's time we made it an acronym for the sake of conciseness. We can combine acronyms, as MLK CBJ, which also rhymes). I see the comma as nothing but a relatively insignificant element of writing style. You see it as an essential part of the name, almost as if it's necessary to disambiguate Martin Luther King, Jr., from a different person, Martin Luther King Jr. I wonder: if one decided to drop the comma from their own name, would they need to go to court to do it? It's seems unlikely the law cares whether that comma is there or not. I doubt anyone else cares much whether MLK's comma is there or not, aside from a few academics and Wikipedia editors (a completely insignificant fraction of Wikipedia's reader population), so the battle serves us, our egos, far more than it does the readers and the project. I don't know of any authoritative support for either of us, as to that core question, so we will probably always disagree. My goal in this whole thing has never been "correctness", but sane use of editor resources; i.e., we have far more important things that need our attention and are not getting it. That's why my position has always been: 1. Pick one way or the other, and I don't care if you fucking flip a coin. 2. Use it, site-wide, no discussion. 3. Move on and reap the benefits. Step 1 is done. ― Mandruss ☎ 04:01, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
Randy Kryn, in the wake of the above discussion, has been trying to double the length of the lead sentence by repeating the very long name of this institution but including the comma, and labelling it "official". At least Dicklyon and I have independently reverted this. I can's speak for Mr. Lyon, but I object on the basis that it's brow-beating pedantry, and is also a misrepresentation, or at least a potential one. We have no source whatsoever suggesting that the library "officially" gives a damn at all. I.e., the officialness claim is original research. The fact that building, when it was constructed, included a comma in its signage is meaningless. It was more-or-less standard American English to use the comma a generation or so ago. Times have changed, and it's been conclusively proven that the usage pattern has shifted away from the comma, including in American sources. The fact that the signage hasn't been updated has no implications for WP article writing (it doesn't signify anything other than that a library, with a tight budget, is not going to waste money on signage changes no one cares about or would probably even notice). Adding a comma doesn't make it a different name for encyclopedic purposes, any more than changing the font does, or the color. We have a policy called WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE against bombarding readers with nitpicky trivia of this sort.
I invite Randy Kryn to attempt a policy- and reason-based refutation, on the talk page, until consensus is reached. Or just yield on the matter, since we know what consensus will be reached already. The page has already been protected to stop the WP:1AM editwarring. If Kryn really wants to, he can open yet another WP:RFC about this side matter. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 13:00, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Library article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
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![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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I have been to the Dr. King Library, and while it is quite big, I highly doubt that it is the largest library west of the Mississippi. That sentence comes directly from the SJPL's website... nowhere else, can someone verify this? I'll try to do it myself, but help would be appreciated.
Nevhood
20:52, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
When this library was built there was a significant amount of debate regarding the merits of combining a public library and a university library under a single roof. Does anyone have reference to the articles in the SJ Mercury news of this? There also were several architectural critiques of the building. The original MLK library was in front of the SJ Convention Center. I know one of the criticisms of the new public library was that the light rail no longer stops right in front of the building. The art installations also were thought to be very interesting, I cannot remember the artist. I believe the construction costs were higher than anticipated... and it was a public project. Minnaert 17:58, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
The Vietnamese name for the King Library is Thư Viện King WhisperToMe ( talk) 16:31, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved. So yes, Dicklyon's original bold move could have been reverted before this move request, and in closing this, I am viewing the long standing page name as the "default" one. However, from this RM there is now a clear consensus here that the current title is the best one, per our preferences at WP:JR, and the fact that sources do not exclusively use one form. For the record, I am interpreting the grandfathering clause in the RfC as indicating that although we shouldn't dive in and change those older and FA articles wholesale, they are not immune from gaining consensus at an RM such as this, and the grandfathering isn't in itself a policy based reason against a move. — Amakuru ( talk) 11:58, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Library →
Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Library – The building signage uses the comma before the Jr. Some web pages, such as the Library's home page, do not use the comma, but that is just what is in some computer. Let us use the name that is reality-based. Note that
Martin Luther King, Jr. was recently moved to use the comma.
130.65.109.103 (
talk)
19:14, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
Randy Kryn's accusations "
Dicklyon ... knew darn well it's a controversial move" (to remove the comma), and "you know things about King are always controversial", are patently false. The comma removal complies with the guideline, it was recently the subject of a site-wide RfC at Village Pump (which explicitly used MLK as the example, right in its heading) and concluded against the commas, the exact same question was already addressed at
Talk:Martin Luther King Jr. Day, and every RM since then on the topic has been "controversial" only to 1–3 editors out of all the thousands of active ones, while all these RMs have gone against the comma, and removing it via direct moves or
WP:RM#TR is now routine. This campaigning to re-litigate the issue by opposing every single MOS:JR compliance move in hopes that everyone will get tired and give up is not going to work. It's just vexatious, tendentious, and frivolous.
—
SMcCandlish ☺
☏
¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼
21:21, 7 May 2016 (UTC)
mislead people about Dr. King's full name- This is at the core of the disagreement on CBJ (that's become such a commonly-used term, it's time we made it an acronym for the sake of conciseness. We can combine acronyms, as MLK CBJ, which also rhymes). I see the comma as nothing but a relatively insignificant element of writing style. You see it as an essential part of the name, almost as if it's necessary to disambiguate Martin Luther King, Jr., from a different person, Martin Luther King Jr. I wonder: if one decided to drop the comma from their own name, would they need to go to court to do it? It's seems unlikely the law cares whether that comma is there or not. I doubt anyone else cares much whether MLK's comma is there or not, aside from a few academics and Wikipedia editors (a completely insignificant fraction of Wikipedia's reader population), so the battle serves us, our egos, far more than it does the readers and the project. I don't know of any authoritative support for either of us, as to that core question, so we will probably always disagree. My goal in this whole thing has never been "correctness", but sane use of editor resources; i.e., we have far more important things that need our attention and are not getting it. That's why my position has always been: 1. Pick one way or the other, and I don't care if you fucking flip a coin. 2. Use it, site-wide, no discussion. 3. Move on and reap the benefits. Step 1 is done. ― Mandruss ☎ 04:01, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
Randy Kryn, in the wake of the above discussion, has been trying to double the length of the lead sentence by repeating the very long name of this institution but including the comma, and labelling it "official". At least Dicklyon and I have independently reverted this. I can's speak for Mr. Lyon, but I object on the basis that it's brow-beating pedantry, and is also a misrepresentation, or at least a potential one. We have no source whatsoever suggesting that the library "officially" gives a damn at all. I.e., the officialness claim is original research. The fact that building, when it was constructed, included a comma in its signage is meaningless. It was more-or-less standard American English to use the comma a generation or so ago. Times have changed, and it's been conclusively proven that the usage pattern has shifted away from the comma, including in American sources. The fact that the signage hasn't been updated has no implications for WP article writing (it doesn't signify anything other than that a library, with a tight budget, is not going to waste money on signage changes no one cares about or would probably even notice). Adding a comma doesn't make it a different name for encyclopedic purposes, any more than changing the font does, or the color. We have a policy called WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE against bombarding readers with nitpicky trivia of this sort.
I invite Randy Kryn to attempt a policy- and reason-based refutation, on the talk page, until consensus is reached. Or just yield on the matter, since we know what consensus will be reached already. The page has already been protected to stop the WP:1AM editwarring. If Kryn really wants to, he can open yet another WP:RFC about this side matter. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 13:00, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
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